What the hell has happened here?!

[Artimidor Federkiel]

The password forum is meant to protect the moderators/admins from - in some cases - unwanted comments, who target for the integrity of administrating/modding people. In some cases people/players may not provide constructive cirticism, but try to destroy things or to question admins/mods. So if the forum is open for everyone, you'll have to leave with the fact that people may wander in and tell you - as the admin - what to do (as you probably know we had situations when admin/mods were forced to leave temporarily cause attacks were too much for them). Also if an admin/mod has done something wrong or hasn't reacted properly to a post etc., the forum could help to discuss this, and differences may be discussed, but won't be available for everyone so that people can put in more oil in to the flames if there is a hot situation.

The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

[Gararion]

Also to add to what Art has said the forum would be a place where admins/mods would be able to discuss things among themselves and come to a general overall feeling about a topic so we are not seen bickering among ourselves when discussing these same issues with the players in other threads.  It is not meant to keep info away from the players but is meant to help them.

My Website ~ ~Santharia~ Live the Dream
Sorry...

Edited by: Gararion  at: 7/19/03 11:19

[Terra Artemos]

I happen to aggree with having a private board, for a lot of the reasons stated. Democracy has its place, but so does discussion behind closed doors. We have publicly viewable forums, and I do ask we continue to use these too. I just feel there are some things that are not being brought up in public, and/or should not be brought up in public that are not being properly addressed, for one reason or another.

As for those publicly viewable forums I mentioned. I think this conversation would be better moved to another one, or at least its own thread. I am sure we are off tipic.

'I am grey. All but those like me see only darkness and light, they do not see the grey between them. In this greyness I dwell. I would not wish this fate on any other.'

Terra Artemos Character Description

[Catchfire]

I agree, there are simply too many mods and admins to make a chat work.  I think a closed forum is a good idea, especially if, once we've decided on a solution, we announce it to the entire board...that way, nothing is hidden except how we arrived at the answer.  It's not lilke we will stop listening to people's suggestions, and it will make it easier for us to just get things done.

I agree that CD requirements are by and large too strict, and people have too wait for far too long to get titled as a result.  It's frustrating, and we lose a lot of good people that way.  There are a lot of deidcated people here, and Santharia is beautiful and original.  Things could be better.  Let's do it.

Thanks for the wake up call, Aylix.

Be Bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid... - Basil King

Not all who wander are lost... - J.R.R. Tolkien

[Wren]

hmm - I'm not at all sure.

I don't like a forum that can't be seen by all.

And I don't think that we are overly strict. When I tell correct people I am making sure that they all place they're characters and have a similar basic understanding of the world in which they play. I see SO many examples of people who have made absolutly NO effort to look at the main site at all except to choose they're tribe, but they haven't even bothered to read they're tribal entry.

I prepared to let problems with apperance and personailty go, but I will not permit changes in the basic truth of the world. If people don't get a sense of where they are playing from they're moderators, then where are they supposed to get it? They're is too much written material for them to cover it all.

Moderators do a **** good job of ensuring that they're are no God characters running around and that players have a good basic sense of the society in which they hail and what is acceptable in this world. Those who go through the process are those who end up with a through understanding of they're characters motivation and thought - look at Catchfire. He arrived new to this board, and when he'd finished making corrections it was one of the best new CD's I'd seen. Better than mine.

Its a fine line that Mods and Adins tread. We get hassled and we get stressed. And I would appreciate it if people who don't have to do this on a regular basis didn't beat us up for it.

And mods and admins - stop beating yourselves up about it. As long as you remain helpful freindly and give players good alternatives and suggestions instead of 'no you can't do that' Then thats all anyone can ask of you.

And anyone who says different will feel the full force of my wrath - which is truely considerable today!  

I AM THE ANGEL OF DEATH. THE TIME OF JUDGMENT IS UPON US...... ect ect. Please tell Xarl!

How do you dream? I mean, what can you dream of; if from under your forest ceiling you have never seen the stars

Edited by: Wren at: 7/19/03 17:48

[Koldar Mondrakken]

Quote:Its a fine line that Mods and Adins tread. We get hassled and we get stressed. And I would appreciate it if people who don't have to do this on a regular basis didn't beat us up for it.

And mods and admins - stop beating yourselves up about it. As long as you remain helpful freindly and give players good alternatives and suggestions instead of 'no you can't do that' Then thats all anyone can ask of you.

I pick up these lines because I generally agree with the other stuff. I don't want god chars and people completely ignoring Santharia as a world either.

However the above are imo also reasons why we should just think about it. First of all currently there should be no reason to get stressed or hassled because the number of newbies looks pretty manageable to me compared other times when you Wren worked wonders in approving dozens of chars a day!
So we need to get rid of whatever stresses people here. This is the rpg board, the fun zone! None should feel like in his dayjob here!
And second from what I've read and heard and hopefully no mods kill me for this opinion I think some mods and admins still beat themselves up because of some rules and guidelines that once were laid out and are only meaning wasted time and extra work. E.g. I don't think you need me to tell when an orc char is crap and when it isn't. I also don't think it should be necessary for every world develeoper to watch over chars of his own tribes. Of course he/she can stick their noses into that chars and add details but beyond it I must say the general quality of a char is more important than that and this general quality can be seen by anyone who reads the description.
That's why I said we world developers should rethink our influence on this board. Of course the board should be based on Santharia but given all the plotholes we have to fix in the world we shouldn't waste our time with teaching any newcomer about the advantages of a Centoraurian Shortsword and an orcish warbow.
We should again think more the world development is one project. The rgp board is just a fun-zone.


Well, I just wanted to add this, hopefully I don't get killed by Wren but one the other side my current dayjob has one big advantage: You cease to fear death!

No, as I said I generally agree on everything said, I just don't think it is something done by just mentioning it once or twice. People must really find back to the funpart of everything, I think.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
Weakness is strength. Hope is life.

[Silfer Darkflare]

*Wanders into this* Once again, this has been brought up.. and once again, I will say my two cents worth of words...

First, I half-way agree with Arti - Life is what you make of it, etc.

However, I have been here for some time now, I guess... Not as much as other people, but still. And I have seen some "oldies" here get fits because of undesirable things... I have myself felt sad/angry because of such things... And I could say a lot,. but it is unclear in my head, so therefore I will say this:

Arti, life is what you make of it... however, what happens if soemone "new" to the boards tries to do entries, and gets few comments/gets negative criticism on his work, tries to edit things, gets into a new conflict... well, let's say this person isnt an all-talented writer... he will get very few comments here.. I feel there is more and more "competition" in Santharia, aobut making the best entry, the most detailed one, etc. Those who cannot compete feel their work isnt appreciated... and lose interest after a while. Of cours,e this is natural... but we don't tell soemone "You dont have enough skill to do this".. no, we are way too polite, we tell soem good thigns, and for the rest ignore that person...

This is rambling... I don't have it clearly laid out. However, I have eyes... I see things, I hear things... and of course i will not mention any names here... unless forced to.

This may be off-topic, this may be foolish, this may be wise... choose.

[Aylix Goth]

wow... that certainly sparked something. ^_^'

Uh... yea... I wasnt ready for all the follow ups  though I do think the private forum is a good idea. Using the new ezBoard people wont even have to know its there as you can make certain forums invisble to all but a select few (I've seen that on a couple of boards and it works well... people dont even know its there)

I'm glad to see that some of you agree with Koldar (and me... I didnt say it directly) that we are perhaps being too harsh with the CD's, leaving no real scope with the actual character development... which is the most interesting part of creating the character (its like starting D&D with a level 20 char straight away... or any RPG with a maxed out character and knowing all the stortline first) there is no real room for development at all.

*backs away slowly*

anyways... yea...
Koldar has probably made the best points. listen to the guy... he knows what he's on about *nods*

[Muargath]

Heya all,

I know some of you won't like what I'll say next, but Aylix's and Kolder's first posts in this thread were right on (as was Aylix's most recent post before mine)!  This is what I brought up, only I used my typically blunt, and all too specific (not to mention, ultimately scorned) approach to bring this up.  It is what I was talking about in scope, if not in detail.  Honestly, I wasn't trying to insult anyone here or this board.. I only wanted to bring up these very same points.  

I am so glad you are all willing to look at the flaws and try to fix them.  Thank you, Aylix, for stepping up and bringing it to the fore.  You are the dude!

Allowing lesser powered PCs in is one key.  If a PC comes into play fully developed, there is no place to grow, nothing to learn.  Change is good, especially for the characters.

Allowing more freedom in RPGs is another key (hey we all know this world is based on Middle Earth and no one wants to ruin any of that).  Chances are, no area, race, or event is permanently altered by the events of a game (I doubt that any of the descriptions in The Santharian Dream site were derived from a RPG on this board).  Anyway, the only people who pay much attention to what happens in a game are the Mods and the Players involved.  It won't effect the world as it is written unless someone likes the ideas presented.  And who knows, maybe, just maybe, some of the much needed developmental write-ups for The Santharian Dream might be found in the most unlikely of places, within a game somewhere on these boards.  But rather than asking people to write for a certain area (which can be daunting for people who don't consider themselves "writers")  a Mod could say, "Ooh, that is really good.  We could use that!"  Then it could be posted somewhere on the development board for other people's perusal.  If nothing else, it could be a springboard for ideas.  

I know you don't want my thanks, but I applaud you all for taking these first steps.  There is hope yet...

Cheers and good luck!

"There is serenity in Chaos.
Seek ye the Eye of the Hurricane."
- so says the Principia Discordia

Edited by: Muargath   at: 7/20/03 7:33

[Wren]

With all due respect Koldar it probably looks managable to you Koldar because you do not have to devote time to it every day.

One Uri check can take me up to two hours because I want to do people the curtesy of reading what they have written. And that means EVERY newbie and EVERY edit. That means at least two hours of my time every day. And all I can say is thank god for Terra and Gar the rest. I don't know what I do without them. But I still have to read the CD's for myself.

And I think that if I am doing people the curtesy of reading their CDs and giving them a little insight into their choosen tribe (that after all is what I'm trying to do) then I think its only fair that they actually read their tribal entry. That is all I'm asking for and I don't think that this is asking to much!

How do you dream? I mean, what can you dream of; if from under your forest ceiling you have never seen the stars

[Catchfire]

First of all, less powerful characters are always, always encouraged, and god characters are never, never allowed.  This is the way it is, and the way it's been for as long as I've been here, and probably a great deal earlier.  Developmental characters are the norm, despite what other ideas some may have.  That is not the problem.

I think the mods and admins should have a forum to discuss things.  But I am starting to reconsider whether it should be password protected.  Is there really a need for that?  We never speak ill of anyone anyways, unless there is no other way, and people of this board should know what admins and mods are working on, and have input accordingly.

I think Koldar makes a lot of excellent points.  'Strewth!  We do not need to check on Wren for elves, Koldar for orcs, Talia for Shendar unless absolutley necessary.  I think I can generally approve most characters based on my own research without checking on the experts.  I've seen a lot of characters, specifically those who wish to be mages, frustrated to no end in development as we try to suss out their mage.  The information doesn't even really exist on the main site, and is constantly in a state of debate on the dev board, so how can a newbie be expected to know it all?  And yet, we force them to include a whole bunch of ambiguous detail just because they want to be a level 3 or 4 mage.  Also, the rule for pages~levels is flawed, I think, because we should be after quality, not quantity.

These are things we should be discussing, if only for the fact that everyone's on the same page.  I should stress that I think all the mods do an outstanding job making newbies feel welcome, helping them with the CD form, pointing them in the right directions for information, and being helpful and suggestive instead of negative.  I just think we could use some solidarity, dig?

Rambling?  Oh yes.  We shall stop here.  For now...

Be Bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid... - Basil King

Not all who wander are lost... - J.R.R. Tolkien

[Silfer Darkflare]

On magic: Well, magic IS under revisions, so there's nothing much to do expet waiting till it is finished... we magic mods each udnerstand aobut 1/3 of it, so go figure... But if it is that frustrating, figure out our own guidelines a little... the rules do not have to EXACTLY the same as on dev. boards...

[Koldar Mondrakken]

With all due respect Wren, that's the reason it has to be changed. It has to be manageable because _this_ _is_ _meant_ _to_ _be_ _fun_.

When it takes you two hours to do all the checking I find this horrible because I know that you have as little freetime as I do and I know I'd die with any more work in the evening! So let us better stick our heads together and make this board a better place for all people including and esspecially the mods! I mean that's a serious reason to rethink our methods.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
Weakness is strength. Hope is life.

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 7/20/03 20:08

[Terra Artemos]

Koldar is completely right, CD approval could be further streamlined.

'I am grey. All but those like me see only darkness and light, they do not see the grey between them. In this greyness I dwell. I would not wish this fate on any other.'

Terra Artemos Character Description

[Fox]

Quote:Also, the rule for pages~levels is flawed, I think, because we should be after quality, not quantity.

True, but it also deters those who wish to have a character of a high level, and prevents us from having so many (we press for lesser leveled characters, no?). Levels 8-10 are near godly, and 7 is pushing it. You could say to anyone "If you have a good history, then sure, go ahead." Anyone can have a good history. In fact, you need a good history to get approved.

The same deal is with the aging process. A paragraph per decade of life. This is quantity, and not necessarily quality, but you need the latter to be accepted. For magic, you have to have not only quantity, but quality as well, just like the paragraph~decade.

It takes a lot of work, but you're working for a near godly character, which under normal conditions were supposed to be completely banned, unless the local Magic Expert, not any 'ol mod, but Magic Expert mod, okayed it.

We could possibly lower the page amount, but it still must be far more work than, say, an expert swordsman or whatever, because a mage that can blow up a town without much effort isn't exactly a low level character. It's mostly supposed to just deter people from the thought of making such a high level character. ("Hh no! I don't want to have to write so much! I'll stick with something lower."... etc)

Santharian Master of Magic. Contact at dasson@santharia.com
The Santharian Dream - Create the Dream. Live the Dream.

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