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Author Topic: CD Help  (Read 19964 times)
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Alýr (Rayne)
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« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2012, 05:19:59 AM »

To reiterate/extrapolate:
Ryvic's mind essentially has 3 problems/abnormalities.

1. SC spells.
This is as much a weakness as a strength. Ryvic intentionally forgot all his conscious magic, meaning that any magic he uses will be SC. Nearly all his combat spells are tied to his knife, meaning without it, he is useless in a fight. Also, they are inefficient; using far more energy than is necessary. Not so bad on its own, but then, it isn't on its own.

2. The curse.
I have tentatively settled on the curse affecting his father with bouts of insanity. This carries over to Ryvic in his emotions when he uses magic, giving him near bi-polarism. You may remember that his SC spells are more powerful with more powerful emotions. The curse increases his emotions quite a bit, increasing the energy used in the spells. However, his subconscious gets less efficient with more power.
Outside of combat, the curse is much weaker, since he forgot his conscious magic.

3. General confusion.
All the rest of his mind; regret, guilt, optimism, seeing others as tools (at least at first), and on and on. Basically what gives him his personality. Doesn't have much bearing with the curse and magic. Like I said before, the way the story ends will greatly effect this; it's the difference between a bloodthirsty revenge-seeker, and a knowledgehungry resolution-seeker.
Just as an FYI--None of these actually strike me as weaknesses. You have explain the SC spell, but even the curse which causes bi-polarity seems more personality than anything--and I'm not entirely sure how this is different than the general confusion you mention. Regret/guilt and optimism are kind of the "bi" in bi-polar. I don't see how the two are different.




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I've always thought of Ryvic as a water mage. I have some reasons below, ordered based on importance and strength as far as I can tell:
I'll break these down a bit, if you don't mind. I have no issue with Ryvic being a water mage; I think having a father as a fire mage, however, might help you bring about the conflict you're looking for.

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1. I image his mind more like a stormy sea, and less like a brilliant flame.
The chaos of fire makes seas stormy, not water.

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2. Water's different properties, serenity and unpredictability, are near-opposites, allowing more contrast in Ryvic's character.
Unpredictability is not a property of water.

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3. Water seems like a better forest-grower.
Quote from: Entry on Ximaxian Water Magic
III. The Sphere of Evolution
The third sphere is commonly known as the Sphere of Evolution, as this sphere deals with the way a target adapts and changes, develops and evolves. What this means is that, by adding Water cár'áll, a mage can cause something to sprout and flourish
There is some debate around this, I think, but I don't mind allowing it--though I thought it was Ryvic's father, not Ryvic, who grew the forest.

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4. Water is cool.
No disagreements here.




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The explanations of how magic work are at best confusing, and sometimes contradictory. Here's the impression I have.

From the explanation in the "The Seven Ximaxian Schools Of Magic" entry and the pictures on the right side, it would seem that all three spheres make the element more or less dominant in a Car'all. Sphere I does it by making ounia more or less powerful; Sphere II moves the ounia around in the Car'all, the equivalent of gerrymandering; and Sphere III brings in foreign ounia.

Questions:
I see a lot of talk about making ounia express certain properties of their element more than others. Which sphere is this? Or is it some side-school thingy?
I don't see how you could make something move with the impression I put up there. How does that work?
Ounia, when their properties are turned 'on', display their properties. Mages can turn properties on and off. The spheres are ways of manipulating ounia to help turn "on" properties to a greater or lesser extent. Properties go on and off on their own, naturally as car'allia move and grow. The spheres are like the bridge connecting a mage to that process.

Sphere one is the easiest. As a mage, I just go in and turn "on" a property of an oun. The links around that oun change from ahm (passive/listening) to soor (active/speaking). These links may connect the oun to other ounia of different elements. (So when I turn on the properties of a water oun, the soor links around it may connect to earth, fire, wind, and other water ounia around it; simultaneously, other soor links in the car'all turn ahm.)

Sphere two is a little bit harder, because it involved more manipulation of how the links actually do the linking. In Sphere two, I don't just go in and turn "on" a property of an oun; I'm also dictating, to some degree, what it links to. I dictate that its soor links should connect to other ounia of its same type, partially turning "on" the properties in them, as well. (So when I turn on the properties of the water oun, the soor links are made only with other water ounia).

Sphere three is the hardest, because, as a mage, you're not only manipulating the ounia and the links, but to some degree the "meta-states" of the links. Meta-states dictate how likely a link will change from ahm to soor. When I want to connect a foreign ounia to a car'all, I have to change its meta-state so that it will become 'part' of that car'all. However, when I do this, I up the influence of the element as a whole. Through the law of Conservation of Voice, the balance of soor and ahm links in a car'all is fixed; if 40% of a car'all's ounia are water, it's more like that the element will have greater influence on the car'all.

I hope this makes sense. It's a bit complicated, but it does work. It's just hard to explain at times.




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Moving on, some specific ideas for Ryvic's magic.
I currently have it divided into three sections; Conscious, Subconscious, and Instinct.


Conscious:
Ryvic has intentionally forgotten most, if not all of this magic. It's the magic he consciously controls, and was at level 2 when he faced his father.

   I currently don't think Ryvic will know any spells here.


Subconscious:
A result of the experiments his father did on him. This is, I think, almost a cross between Ximaxian and Clerical magic. He doesn't have to think about using them; they activate based on emotions or states of mind.

   Area Frost - I'm sure you've read the entry on this one. Makes the water ounia around Ryvic express coldness. Activated by cold anger/hate.

   Knife Magic - This depends on what he ends up being able to do with water magic. Freezing the knife as he fights; shooting jets of water off of it; perhaps liquidizing enemy armor as he slices through them. Activated by knife combat.


Instinct:
This is an offshoot of Subconscious. The difference is that this spell is always active, and he only knows the one.

   Intuition - Using the spiritual aspect of water, Ryvic can sense someone's intentions before they move. Less experienced enemies plan their moves very specifically, more experienced ones will leave their options open, making it harder for Ryvic to sense. He will sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, having sensed a supposed threat. Outside of combat, this spell is more of a hindrance than a help. Activated constantly, Ryvic can sometimes control it to sense a particular entity (most often seen in combat).
There's no such thing as being a cross between clerical and Ximaxian. These are explanations for the same thing. It's just a way of understanding the world. I can say "heart-shaped", "cordate", or "kokoro no you na", but in the end, the all refer to one thing:  heart

I will say that the way Ryvic seems to cast and use magic is more clerical. Clerical magic is currently restricted because it's very powerful: when you try to cast a spell, often times it will fail or be low-degree, but it has the potential to be very large and very destructive.

However, you're sort of falling off the face of "developed" magical systems here, because what you're looking for is really something outside the system, something that relates more closely to your character's intuitive, chaotic nature. It's clerical-like, but not really clerical, because it's not tied with worship or belief; it's more of a reptilian-brain impulse spurring magical effects. I'm fine with it as long as you 1) limit yourself to a few key magical effects (you'll need to enumerate the knife effects, for example) and 2) don't go too overboard in the RPGs. I'm giving you some carte blanche here, but don't go crazy!



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   Waay up there, I said the curse makes his father go insane at times. In the story, he goes mad at two specific times; when he meets Ryvic's mother, and after he decides to kill her. Also, he was cursed for killing a small family. I'm unsure who would be likely to do this. (that was really short, but I can expand if need be)
Yes, a tainting would bring about the effects you're looking for, though they're a bit difficult to create. If you just want insanity, then, as I said, a witch or powerful cleric should do the trick. It would not be uncommon to have a witch living near or even being part of a small family.

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Don't feel like you have to reply to everything at once ;)
No worries! The answers are out there--it's just finding words to explain them intelligibly.  buck
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Ryvic Darkveil
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« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2012, 02:34:46 PM »

I'm coming up with 80% of this as we converse, and I'll put new ideas in orange. If something seems incoherent or half-baked to you, bring it to my attention; make me think about it more.

Just as an FYI--None of these actually strike me as weaknesses. You have explain the SC spell, but even the curse which causes bi-polarity seems more personality than anything--and I'm not entirely sure how this is different than the general confusion you mention. Regret/guilt and optimism are kind of the "bi" in bi-polar. I don't see how the two are different.
I did a terrible job of explaining an extremely complex half-formed idea that hides in the darkest available corner of my mind. I must try again...
Maybe he won't be cursed, since it does seem more of a personality issue. However, bi-polarity is not the most accurate way to put it. As I said{recently came up with}, the "curse" is manifested when he uses magic. He has the three types, conscious, SC, and Instinct. He unlearned the conscious, so we may as well ignore that for now.

The SC is used during certain moods, in which case the curse strengthens those moods. SC spells are inefficient (stated before), sometimes injuring Ryvic with the energy drain.

The Instinct magic is almost the reverse of SC magic. When the spell is active (always), it creates(encourages?) a mood. These moods are then strengthened by the curse. One likely one would be fear; Intuition senses danger, after all.
While fear is possible, I'd like to come up with others, so he doesn't have to be a coward all the time.


So, while they are definitely strengths in that he can blast enemies and have intuition as to their intent, they are also partly weaknesses; he hurts himself when he blasts enemies, and knowing their intent creates strong emotions (terror, shock, etc.), often leaving him vulnerable.


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I'll break these down a bit, if you don't mind. I have no issue with Ryvic being a water mage; I think having a father as a fire mage, however, might help you bring about the conflict you're looking for.
Hmm... Could a Fire Mage teach Water Magic? I can have him steal some more scrolls from Ximax and add a motive, but would it be possible? (I assume it is, since you brought it up.)


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The chaos of fire makes seas stormy, not water.
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Unpredictability is not a property of water.
So I should forget everything I read in the "The Element of Water" entry? All that stuff about "Baveras, the Goddess of the Sea, has many faces - she is the wild and untamed Goddess". Of course, I could be misreading it..


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There is some debate around this, I think, but I don't mind allowing it--though I thought it was Ryvic's father, not Ryvic, who grew the forest.
Indeed, Ryvic's Father grew the forest. When I wrote that I had his Father as a Water Mage. If I do change him to a Fire Mage, the point is moot, I suppose.


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Ounia, when their properties are turned 'on', display their properties. Mages can turn properties on and off. The spheres are ways of manipulating ounia to help turn "on" properties to a greater or lesser extent. Properties go on and off on their own, naturally as car'allia move and grow. The spheres are like the bridge connecting a mage to that process.

Sphere one is the easiest. As a mage, I just go in and turn "on" a property of an oun. The links around that oun change from ahm (passive/listening) to soor (active/speaking). These links may connect the oun to other ounia of different elements. (So when I turn on the properties of a water oun, the soor links around it may connect to earth, fire, wind, and other water ounia around it; simultaneously, other soor links in the car'all turn ahm.)

Sphere two is a little bit harder, because it involved more manipulation of how the links actually do the linking. In Sphere two, I don't just go in and turn "on" a property of an oun; I'm also dictating, to some degree, what it links to. I dictate that its soor links should connect to other ounia of its same type, partially turning "on" the properties in them, as well. (So when I turn on the properties of the water oun, the soor links are made only with other water ounia).
Up to here, it makes sense, and is completely different from what I understood from the entry. I still don't understand how moving things around works, though.


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Sphere three is the hardest, because, as a mage, you're not only manipulating the ounia and the links, but to some degree the "meta-states" of the links. Meta-states dictate how likely a link will change from ahm to soor. When I want to connect a foreign ounia to a car'all, I have to change its meta-state so that it will become 'part' of that car'all.
Try as I might, I have never understood what meta means. Could you try to explain again?


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However, when I do this, I up the influence of the element as a whole. Through the law of Conservation of Voice, the balance of soor and ahm links in a car'all is fixed; if 40% of a car'all's ounia are water, it's more like that the element will have greater influence on the car'all.
This part seems rather obvious. What's that about the Law of Voice Conservation? Is there an entry somewhere?


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I hope this makes sense. It's a bit complicated, but it does work. It's just hard to explain at times.
I know the feeling. I have some idea of who Ryvic is, but it's hard to get a good enough hold to explain it.
Thanks for all your help!

Edit: If everything in this post is correct or easily resolved, I'm extremely close to opening my CD for comments!


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There's no such thing as being a cross between clerical and Ximaxian. These are explanations for the same thing. It's just a way of understanding the world. I can say "heart-shaped", "cordate", or "kokoro no you na", but in the end, the all refer to one thing:  heart

I will say that the way Ryvic seems to cast and use magic is more clerical. Clerical magic is currently restricted because it's very powerful: when you try to cast a spell, often times it will fail or be low-degree, but it has the potential to be very large and very destructive.
The way I see it is this - Ximaxian thinking says you control the car'all, ounia, and xeua with your will, while clerical thinking says it is faith. They're both technically the same, and they do the same sorts of things.
To use arbitrary numbers, lets say that your conscious is 25% of your mind, and your subconscious is the other 75%. Ximaxian mages use the 25%, gaining more control and less power, while Clerics attempt to get past the 25% (through faith), to the greater power of the 75%.
Ryvic's father hoped to mix the two, using the 25% to control the 75%, instead of ignoring one or the other, resulting in great control and incredible power.
He partially succeeded. Ryvic's emotions, a part of the 25%, control his SC magic, a part of the 75%. This was possible/easy since emotions are really close to the border, and they control, in Ryvic, a part that is also close to the border. With both parts being borderline, he has little control (but still some!), and less than epic power (but still great!)

To dumb it down a lot further than I probably should:
Ximaxian - Power low; Control high.
Clerical - Power high; Control low.
Ryvish - Power medium-high; Control medium-low.

So he is closer to clerical than ximaxian, and most of what I wrote is probably wrong, but there you go.


 
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However, you're sort of falling off the face of "developed" magical systems here, because what you're looking for is really something outside the system, something that relates more closely to your character's intuitive, chaotic nature. It's clerical-like, but not really clerical, because it's not tied with worship or belief; it's more of a reptilian-brain impulse spurring magical effects.
Did you say that reptiles already do this in Caelereth? Not that I'm going to change Ryvic to a lizard, but just wondering.


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I'm fine with it as long as you 1) limit yourself to a few key magical effects (you'll need to enumerate the knife effects, for example)
Edit: I would have in that last post, but I hate breaking self-imposed syntax and formatting. :P

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and 2) don't go too overboard in the RPGs. I'm giving you some carte blanche here, but don't go crazy!
Actually, I was thinking of renaming him to Preewee... jk
I definitely understand how lame a super-character would be. I hope I can come up with adequate weaknesses, because I don't think I can bring myself to remove any of his strengths.  Undecided


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Yes, a tainting would bring about the effects you're looking for, though they're a bit difficult to create. If you just want insanity, then, as I said, a witch or powerful cleric should do the trick. It would not be uncommon to have a witch living near or even being part of a small family.
Insanity should do the trick, I think.


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No worries! The answers are out there--it's just finding words to explain them intelligibly.  buck
Thanks for trying so hard to educate a n00b. :)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 02:56:31 PM by Ryvic Darkveil » Logged

To kill the beast is to kill the man, and to make peace with the beast is to smother the man.
Ryvic's CD
Alýr (Rayne)
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« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2012, 11:52:55 PM »

I did a terrible job of explaining an extremely complex half-formed idea that hides in the darkest available corner of my mind. I must try again...
Maybe he won't be cursed, since it does seem more of a personality issue. However, bi-polarity is not the most accurate way to put it. As I said{recently came up with}, the "curse" is manifested when he uses magic. He has the three types, conscious, SC, and Instinct. He unlearned the conscious, so we may as well ignore that for now.

The SC is used during certain moods, in which case the curse strengthens those moods. SC spells are inefficient (stated before), sometimes injuring Ryvic with the energy drain.

....So, while they are definitely strengths in that he can blast enemies and have intuition as to their intent, they are also partly weaknesses; he hurts himself when he blasts enemies, and knowing their intent creates strong emotions (terror, shock, etc.), often leaving him vulnerable.
It helps when you focus on what actually harms Ryvic. Maybe you can explain more of this energy drain? It's always good to think about strengths and weaknesses somewhat comprehensively or holistically. He has a power that creates an energy drain, but even with the somewhat deleterious effects, is he still stronger for the power he has?

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The Instinct magic is almost the reverse of SC magic. When the spell is active (always), it creates(encourages?) a mood. These moods are then strengthened by the curse. One likely one would be fear; Intuition senses danger, after all.
While fear is possible, I'd like to come up with others, so he doesn't have to be a coward all the time.
I actually like this idea. Yes, this is possible, though it's not really magic. It's not being casted; this is just the way he is. Some people are short and some are tall, some are bolder and some are more timid. Your character is more intuitive and it makes him more... let's not say fearful, but how about paranoid (defensive and suspicious). It could result in insomnia or restlessness. It may make him unsociable or dislikable somehow.




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Hmm... Could a Fire Mage teach Water Magic? I can have him steal some more scrolls from Ximax and add a motive, but would it be possible? (I assume it is, since you brought it up.)
A Fire Mage cannot teach a Water Mage how to perceive the ounia of another element; however, the basics of how the system work are the same. Ounia is still ounia, car'all and xeua are still car'all and xeua. Ryvic would just have to learn how to perceive and manipulate water ounia on his own. Perhaps this is something he could learn somewhat subconsciously from his mother. Magically-inclined children typically gravitate to those elements they have some natural talent for anyway. This is how schools are chosen at Ximax. However, it will be hard for Ryvic to learn without a water mage to teach him. It'll be less "Here's the oun and here's how you manipulate it" and more "The oun is there somewhere--go out and find it and see what you can do."


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So I should forget everything I read in the "The Element of Water" entry? All that stuff about "Baveras, the Goddess of the Sea, has many faces - she is the wild and untamed Goddess". Of course, I could be misreading it..
You're not misreading it; it is out of date. It was created back when we knew far less about where the properties of elements came from than today. We made assumptions based (faultily) on the Twelvern/Aviaria, rather than actually cogitating on the core of the element and ratiocinating upon the properties from that base. Deriving properties from the goddess Baveras would be clerical magic, not Ximaxian. There are some overlaps between Ximaxian water properties and possible Baverian 'magical' effects, but not always. Keep in mind that Seyella and Jeyriall are also water goddesses, and are not quite as plagued by unpredictability as their wild sister.


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Up to here, it makes sense, and is completely different from what I understood from the entry. I still don't understand how moving things around works, though.
If you can understand the two spheres, that's good. The moving around is just another cognitive system to help you understand the system. If you want to get into the more complex and theoretical aspects of magic, you have to collapse your notions 'space' a little. That gets a little more difficult to explain, though I can try if this is something you're interested in.


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Try as I might, I have never understood what meta means. Could you try to explain again?
Meta-states are a more recently-developed idea, and add a new layer of complexity to the system. They were first developed as a way of explaining enchantments, but the nomenclature as derived slightly since them. The best explanation of them now is in the Xeua Entry In-Development, which has unfortunately been gathering dust. Ounia 'hold' the properties that mages want to increase or decrease. Xeua determine what is expressed and what is not (Elemental mages influence links indirectly by pressing magical energies into the Ounia), Meta-states determine how easily it is to get a link to change.

Take a look at the explanation in the Xeua Entry In-Development and let me know if this helps. Keep in mind, though, that manipulation of meta-states is extremely high level, regardless if you're in an elemental school or an arch-school.


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This part seems rather obvious. What's that about the Law of Voice Conservation? Is there an entry somewhere?
It was in the old Xeua entry, and is in the new one, as well:
Conservation of Voice: This law relates to the amount of Ahm and Soór links within a cár’áll, more specifically how much “speaking” there will be in a cár’áll. It states “Always will a harmony exist between Ahm and Soór in the form of equality.” This means that there will always be the same amount of Ahm and Soór links in a cár’áll. There will never be a case in which the links in a person’s cár’áll are all Ahm or all Soór. As soon as one xeuá goes from being Ahm to Soór, another will go from Soór to Ahm. In this manner, all things are balanced.


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I know the feeling. I have some idea of who Ryvic is, but it's hard to get a good enough hold to explain it.
Thanks for all your help!
No worries! Both CDs and magic take time and patience.  :)

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Edit: If everything in this post is correct or easily resolved, I'm extremely close to opening my CD for comments!
Yay!


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The way I see it is this - Ximaxian thinking says you control the car'all, ounia, and xeua with your will, while clerical thinking says it is faith. They're both technically the same, and they do the same sorts of things.
To use arbitrary numbers, lets say that your conscious is 25% of your mind, and your subconscious is the other 75%. Ximaxian mages use the 25%, gaining more control and less power, while Clerics attempt to get past the 25% (through faith), to the greater power of the 75%.
Ryvic's father hoped to mix the two, using the 25% to control the 75%, instead of ignoring one or the other, resulting in great control and incredible power.
He partially succeeded. Ryvic's emotions, a part of the 25%, control his SC magic, a part of the 75%. This was possible/easy since emotions are really close to the border, and they control, in Ryvic, a part that is also close to the border. With both parts being borderline, he has little control (but still some!), and less than epic power (but still great!)

To dumb it down a lot further than I probably should:
Ximaxian - Power low; Control high.
Clerical - Power high; Control low.
Ryvish - Power medium-high; Control medium-low.

So he is closer to clerical than ximaxian, and most of what I wrote is probably wrong, but there you go.
It sounds like you've got it, and this makes sense to me.

 
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Did you say that reptiles already do this in Caelereth? Not that I'm going to change Ryvic to a lizard, but just wondering.
Well, if you wanted to be a lizard, we do have psyrpentsRoll Eyes But you're question begins to get on that border between what is magic and what isn't. It's a REALLY blurry line. A yogi is not a mage, but he can escape thought (increasing wind's influence) through meditation. A television is not an enchanted item, but if you watch a frustrating ball game on it, it may make you angry (increasing fire influence). A song is not a spell, but you probably have a song or two on your iTunes or mp3 player that calms you down (increasing water's influence).

If we consider effects to our emotions and even, to some degree, our bodies to be magical, then we're all mages--even outside of this game. Little brother's are fire mage neophytes who increase our anger; tender mothers are water mages who calm us down. The boundary is blurry. The Ximaxian philosophers use the system to explain the world around us, just as Einstein and Newton and even the bible have tried to do. Mages merely derive the explanation to help them cast spells that are more targeted, direct, and effective.

So can a reptile cast magic? It depends where you draw that line.


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Edit: I would have in that last post, but I hate breaking self-imposed syntax and formatting. :P
No worries! I understand.

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Actually, I was thinking of renaming him to Preewee... jk
I definitely understand how lame a super-character would be. I hope I can come up with adequate weaknesses, because I don't think I can bring myself to remove any of his strengths.  Undecided
Once you're done with you're character, I can give it a quick look-over and we can go from there. Don't worry too much about it right now.  :)


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Thanks for trying so hard to educate a n00b. :)
You're hardly a n00b anymore! If you have understood and absorbed 80% of what we've discussed in this thread, you know more magic than almost anyone else on this board! And it helps me to discuss magic with someone as curious, innovative, and bright as you, because it forces me to look at the magical system from a new direction, and helps me hone my own explanations. So thank you!  :)
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Ryvic Darkveil
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2012, 01:28:39 AM »

It helps when you focus on what actually harms Ryvic. Maybe you can explain more of this energy drain? It's always good to think about strengths and weaknesses somewhat comprehensively or holistically. He has a power that creates an energy drain, but even with the somewhat deleterious effects, is he still stronger for the power he has?
The point of me adding the energy-drain is to keep the SC magic from being too powerful. Overall, the SC magic is certainly a strength, but even though few enemies survive, he almost never comes out of a battle uninjured. This makes him more cautious about which fights he gets into, and can make him hold back when he is fighting.


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I actually like this idea. Yes, this is possible, though it's not really magic. It's not being casted; this is just the way he is. Some people are short and some are tall, some are bolder and some are more timid. Your character is more intuitive and it makes him more... let's not say fearful, but how about paranoid (defensive and suspicious). It could result in insomnia or restlessness. It may make him unsociable or dislikable somehow.
Thanks for the emotion ideas! And it depends where you draw the line :P.
Regardless of whether it is magic proper, it's still a by-product of having learned magic. Or maybe just his magical alignment.


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A Fire Mage cannot teach a Water Mage how to perceive the ounia of another element; however, the basics of how the system work are the same. Ounia is still ounia, car'all and xeua are still car'all and xeua. Ryvic would just have to learn how to perceive and manipulate water ounia on his own. Perhaps this is something he could learn somewhat subconsciously from his mother. Magically-inclined children typically gravitate to those elements they have some natural talent for anyway. This is how schools are chosen at Ximax. However, it will be hard for Ryvic to learn without a water mage to teach him. It'll be less "Here's the oun and here's how you manipulate it" and more "The oun is there somewhere--go out and find it and see what you can do."
He could either steal scrolls from his father, or I could have his father give them to him. The scrolls could help teach him, though they wouldn't be perfect. I like the idea of making his mother more important (she's kind of a side-role right now).
I've got a lot of writing to do...


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You're not misreading it; it is out of date. It was created back when we knew far less about where the properties of elements came from than today. We made assumptions based (faultily) on the Twelvern/Aviaria, rather than actually cogitating on the core of the element and ratiocinating upon the properties from that base. Deriving properties from the goddess Baveras would be clerical magic, not Ximaxian. There are some overlaps between Ximaxian water properties and possible Baverian 'magical' effects, but not always. Keep in mind that Seyella and Jeyriall are also water goddesses, and are not quite as plagued by unpredictability as their wild sister.
Why do you think I said he was unbalanced  grin. Anyway, I think he'll be fine(read: messed up enough) with a meddling Fire Mage as a father and all the other things that happen to him.


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If you can understand the two spheres, that's good. The moving around is just another cognitive system to help you understand the system. If you want to get into the more complex and theoretical aspects of magic, you have to collapse your notions 'space' a little. That gets a little more difficult to explain, though I can try if this is something you're interested in.
Sure, as long as we're on the same page. By 'moving around' I mean things like the spell "Shape Water". I don't quite see how making somethings influence greater would move it. But I love abstract thinking, so fire away!


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Meta-states are a more recently-developed idea, and add a new layer of complexity to the system. They were first developed as a way of explaining enchantments, but the nomenclature as derived slightly since them. The best explanation of them now is in the Xeua Entry In-Development, which has unfortunately been gathering dust. Ounia 'hold' the properties that mages want to increase or decrease. Xeua determine what is expressed and what is not (Elemental mages influence links indirectly by pressing magical energies into the Ounia), Meta-states determine how easily it is to get a link to change.

Take a look at the explanation in the Xeua Entry In-Development and let me know if this helps. Keep in mind, though, that manipulation of meta-states is extremely high level, regardless if you're in an elemental school or an arch-school.



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Conservation of Voice: This law relates to the amount of Ahm and Soór links within a cár’áll, more specifically how much “speaking” there will be in a cár’áll. It states “Always will a harmony exist between Ahm and Soór in the form of equality.” This means that there will always be the same amount of Ahm and Soór links in a cár’áll. There will never be a case in which the links in a person’s cár’áll are all Ahm or all Soór. As soon as one xeuá goes from being Ahm to Soór, another will go from Soór to Ahm. In this manner, all things are balanced.
Ah, cool.


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It sounds like you've got it, and this makes sense to me.
Sweetness! If that didn't work, it would have taken a long time to come up with something else.

 
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Well, if you wanted to be a lizard, we do have psyrpentsRoll Eyes But you're question begins to get on that border between what is magic and what isn't. It's a REALLY blurry line. A yogi is not a mage, but he can escape thought (increasing wind's influence) through meditation. A television is not an enchanted item, but if you watch a frustrating ball game on it, it may make you angry (increasing fire influence). A song is not a spell, but you probably have a song or two on your iTunes or mp3 player that calms you down (increasing water's influence).
Don't go too deep with this, it's just a game. :P


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If we consider effects to our emotions and even, to some degree, our bodies to be magical, then we're all mages--even outside of this game. Little brother's are fire mage neophytes who increase our anger; tender mothers are water mages who calm us down. The boundary is blurry. The Ximaxian philosophers use the system to explain the world around us, just as Einstein and Newton and even the bible have tried to do. Mages merely derive the explanation to help them cast spells that are more targeted, direct, and effective.

So can a reptile cast magic? It depends where you draw that line.
Not really helpful to me, but it sure was interesting. ;)


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Once you're done with you're character, I can give it a quick look-over and we can go from there. Don't worry too much about it right now.  :)
did you catch the joke? ah, well...


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You're hardly a n00b anymore! If you have understood and absorbed 80% of what we've discussed in this thread, you know more magic than almost anyone else on this board! And it helps me to discuss magic with someone as curious, innovative, and bright as you, because it forces me to look at the magical system from a new direction, and helps me hone my own explanations. So thank you!  :)
Awww, you're not half bad yourself! grin

I was going to bring up the comments I said I would save for later, but we've already resolved all of those issues.
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2012, 06:03:59 AM »

The point of me adding the energy-drain is to keep the SC magic from being too powerful. Overall, the SC magic is certainly a strength, but even though few enemies survive, he almost never comes out of a battle uninjured. This makes him more cautious about which fights he gets into, and can make him hold back when he is fighting.
I see. I'll be curious to see how you manage the balancing of strengths and weaknesses, but it sounds like you've got things together.


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Thanks for the emotion ideas! And it depends where you draw the line :P.
Regardless of whether it is magic proper, it's still a by-product of having learned magic. Or maybe just his magical alignment.
Like I said before, the line is a blurry one. I see your perspective, though know that not everything is magic.


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He could either steal scrolls from his father, or I could have his father give them to him. The scrolls could help teach him, though they wouldn't be perfect. I like the idea of making his mother more important (she's kind of a side-role right now).
I've got a lot of writing to do...
Good luck!


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Why do you think I said he was unbalanced  grin. Anyway, I think he'll be fine(read: messed up enough) with a meddling Fire Mage as a father and all the other things that happen to him.
It depends on what you're balancing. Magic--and people--are multi-layered. But it sounds like you've got this together.


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Sure, as long as we're on the same page. By 'moving around' I mean things like the spell "Shape Water". I don't quite see how making somethings influence greater would move it. But I love abstract thinking, so fire away!
Haha! Here's where you begin to get the politics of the magical system from a development point of view. Moving and shaping water aren't technically in the water school. Making water light enough to float is wind magic. Making it move is fire. However, I can't tell someone who wants to be a water mage that they can't shoot water bolts, or that they have to be a fire mage to do so. If you break things down too far, it gets too anti-intuitive to follow, so we get into a gray areas. I let the water mage shoot water bolts, but it's not technically water magic.


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Sweetness! If that didn't work, it would have taken a long time to come up with something else.
I'm glad we got it worked out!

 
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Don't go too deep with this, it's just a game. :P
I'm comfortably with depth, and for me, applying Ximaxian systems to everyday things IS a game--sort of philosophico-cogntive game.  ;)


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Not really helpful to me, but it sure was interesting. ;)
Well, you refer to many non-magical effects as magical; I just want to make sure you see the gray areas.


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did you catch the joke? ah, well...
Preewee?


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Awww, you're not half bad yourself! grin
Thanks!

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I was going to bring up the comments I said I would save for later, but we've already resolved all of those issues.
Well, let me know if there are any lingering issues or questions. I'm always glad to help.
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2012, 09:19:57 AM »

Like I said before, the line is a blurry one. I see your perspective, though know that not everything is magic.
So I should only call something magic if it manipulates Car'allia (and constituents) through willpower? Correct my definition if I got it wrong.

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Well, you refer to many non-magical effects as magical; I just want to make sure you see the gray areas.
I'll keep it in mind.


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Haha! Here's where you begin to get the politics of the magical system from a development point of view. Moving and shaping water aren't technically in the water school. Making water light enough to float is wind magic. Making it move is fire. However, I can't tell someone who wants to be a water mage that they can't shoot water bolts, or that they have to be a fire mage to do so. If you break things down too far, it gets too anti-intuitive to follow, so we get into a gray areas. I let the water mage shoot water bolts, but it's not technically water magic.
A: that wasn't very abstract, and B: I don't think we need to compromise. We just need an explanation. I shall submit a lengthy discourse on how water can move itself with surface tension.

 
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I'm comfortably with depth, and for me, applying Ximaxian systems to everyday things IS a game--sort of philosophico-cogntive game.  ;)
Very well.


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Preewee?
Yes. But now it's not funny.


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Well, let me know if there are any lingering issues or questions. I'm always glad to help.
Most certainly.

Now I will start writing up my first draft.
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2012, 10:24:27 AM »

So I should only call something magic if it manipulates Car'allia (and constituents) through willpower? Correct my definition if I got it wrong.
Its not that simple, unfortunately. Magic is 1) manipulation of car'allia, but also 2) conscious. But there's more to it than that. You can consciously manipulate your own car'all (by e.g. calming yourself down) or consciously affect someone else's (e.g. annoying them) without being a mage.


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A: that wasn't very abstract, and B: I don't think we need to compromise. We just need an explanation. I shall submit a lengthy discourse on how water can move itself with surface tension.
I never said that "Shape Water" was abstract. I only mentioned that magic as a whole had complex and theoretical aspects involving the collapse of space. After this, you re-introduced the  "Shape Water" spell, assuming the explanation was abstract. But as I mentioned, the explanation for this spell is more political than anything.


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Yes. But now it's not funny.
Wow, it's been years since I read this. Drogo was a funny guy.


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Now I will start writing up my first draft.
Good luck, and have fun!
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« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2012, 03:25:46 PM »

Its not that simple, unfortunately. Magic is 1) manipulation of car'allia, but also 2) conscious. But there's more to it than that. You can consciously manipulate your own car'all (by e.g. calming yourself down) or consciously affect someone else's (e.g. annoying them) without being a mage.
I'll try.


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I never said that "Shape Water" was abstract. I only mentioned that magic as a whole had complex and theoretical aspects involving the collapse of space. After this, you re-introduced the  "Shape Water" spell, assuming the explanation was abstract. But as I mentioned, the explanation for this spell is more political than anything.
I still might be able to come up with a potential explanation, using either the expansion of freezing water or surface tension.


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Wow, it's been years since I read this. Drogo was a funny guy.
Say, is there some way short of asking the person to find out how many/which characters they own?


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Good luck, and have fun!
Question: Is Randomness still a property of water?

Question: I can't find the time units anywhere. I'm guessing blinks are seconds, but...
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« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2012, 08:07:08 PM »

Ah, a question I can help with! Please find under this elegantly crafted link the Santharian calendar, including the times and time units :)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 08:13:18 PM by Irid alMenie » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2012, 01:40:48 AM »

Thanks!

Question: I want a name to call Ryvic's magic. I've renamed sub/conscious to Under/Overmind. I have been calling it Subconscious magic, which would now be Undermind magic, but that's actually Clerical. Any ideas?
Edit: All I have so far is a mixed Thergerim/Styrash translation of Over-Under-mind, Tol-Ke-órin.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 01:56:17 AM by Ryvic Darkveil » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2012, 12:47:47 PM »

I still might be able to come up with a potential explanation, using either the expansion of freezing water or surface tension.
I look forward to hearing more about it! It sounds interesting.  :)


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Say, is there some way short of asking the person to find out how many/which characters they own?
Nope. I myself have a few "secret characters" that no one else really knows about.  ;)  But you can always ask someone what other characters they have, and they'll tell you if they're comfortable with you knowing.


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Question: Is Randomness still a property of water?
Nope.

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Question: I want a name to call Ryvic's magic. I've renamed sub/conscious to Under/Overmind. I have been calling it Subconscious magic, which would now be Undermind magic, but that's actually Clerical. Any ideas?
Edit: All I have so far is a mixed Thergerim/Styrash translation of Over-Under-mind, Tol-Ke-órin.
How about just "Ryvic's Magic"? What you have is not really a magic system, per se, and therefore I'm not sure it necessarily warrants a name. It's sort of like elven magic: it's free-flowing, and there's not really a system behind it, so it doesn't really have a name. Even within elvish, I get the feeling the word for magic (dél) is tied to the human way of doing magic (hence the term dél'áey for mage, which literally refers to a non-elven magic user). Magic is ingrained as natural, doesn't have a system, and therefore doesn't really have a name.
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« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2012, 01:03:13 PM »

Nope. I myself have a few "secret characters" that no one else really knows about.  ;)  But you can always ask someone what other characters they have, and they'll tell you if they're comfortable with you knowing.
"Secret" meaning you won't tell me, right? :P


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Nope.
Ok.


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How about just "Ryvic's Magic"? What you have is not really a magic system, per se, and therefore I'm not sure it necessarily warrants a name. It's sort of like elven magic: it's free-flowing, and there's not really a system behind it, so it doesn't really have a name. Even within elvish, I get the feeling the word for magic (dél) is tied to the human way of doing magic (hence the term dél'áey for mage, which literally refers to a non-elven magic user). Magic is ingrained as natural, doesn't have a system, and therefore doesn't really have a name.
I see your point, but how should I distinguish between the magic he knew consciously (that he's forgotten), and the stuff he still knows? It helps to have some kind of name, sort of like I've been using 'SC' and 'conscious'. I realize now that SC is inaccurate, so I was wondering if there was something that could better describe it. I can try to work around it, but still...


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I look forward to hearing more about it! It sounds interesting.  :)
If added as a property of water, surface tension could work. Of course, it would need a more universal name, like cohesion. I think it fits with your description of water being "wind trying to become earth."
Cohesion won't really allow for shooting bolts of water, but things like water whips, maybe with a ball of ice on the end, become possible. I guess you could think of it like muscles without bones.
I'm pretty sure cohesion would fit with the current 'shape water' spells.

Well, that wasn't exactly lengthy, but I hope I explained clearly.
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« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2012, 01:22:04 PM »

"Secret" meaning you won't tell me, right? :P
Haha! I might. Though I'm likely to inquire as to the purpose. Many of my characters are older, made back before a lot of information and rules were put in place, and are therefore poor examples of how to create a CD. I have a few that are a little more recent. Are you looking for something in particular?


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I see your point, but how should I distinguish between the magic he knew consciously (that he's forgotten), and the stuff he still knows? It helps to have some kind of name, sort of like I've been using 'SC' and 'conscious'. I realize now that SC is inaccurate, so I was wondering if there was something that could better describe it. I can try to work around it, but still...
It sounds like Judgement-based/cognitive and Emotion-based/intuitive to me. I wouldn't worry too much about nomenclature; if you describe what you mean, I'm sure myself and the other moderators will understand.


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If added as a property of water, surface tension could work. Of course, it would need a more universal name, like cohesion. I think it fits with your description of water being "wind trying to become earth."
Cohesion won't really allow for shooting bolts of water, but things like water whips, maybe with a ball of ice on the end, become possible. I guess you could think of it like muscles without bones.
I'm pretty sure cohesion would fit with the current 'shape water' spells.

Well, that wasn't exactly lengthy, but I hope I explained clearly.
Cohesion is a property of water (I think we generally termed this coalescence in the nascent Properties Entry on the Development Boards. However, this only explains how to get water formed into some sort of mass--but not how to lift it (wind) or animate it forward (fire) [or put it into motion (wind)]. In the end, it really gets down to the politics of magical development. You can't tell a water mage that he can't throw orbs of water. I'm all right with letting that slide--Ximaxian magic is a means of explanation, but it doesn't necessarily explain everything.  :)
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« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2012, 01:47:07 PM »

Haha! I might. Though I'm likely to inquire as to the purpose. Many of my characters are older, made back before a lot of information and rules were put in place, and are therefore poor examples of how to create a CD. I have a few that are a little more recent. Are you looking for something in particular?
Not really. It just gets confusing at times.


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Cohesion is a property of water (I think we generally termed this coalescence in the nascent Properties Entry on the Development Boards. However, this only explains how to get water formed into some sort of mass
But need you any more?

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--but not how to lift it (wind) or animate it forward (fire) [or put it into motion (wind)].
How about swinging your arm around your head? If you can keep water in shape, you use normal physical effort to provide kinetic energy.

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In the end, it really gets down to the politics of magical development.
I hate politics.

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You can't tell a water mage that he can't throw orbs of water.
Well, you could, technically...
The way I've come to see magic in Caelereth has nothing to do with bending (see A:TLA). Instead, you have a much more elegant system, almost a believable one. I think that, at least personally, I won't use any compromise-holes.
Fire Mages can shoot fire balls because they are able to make heat and motion.
Water Mages can have different attacks, that's what makes it interesting. If everyone could make an [Element]-Ball, where would we be? Boring-Land.

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I'm all right with letting that slide--Ximaxian magic is a means of explanation, but it doesn't necessarily explain everything.  :)
Nice loophole.


Hope I didn't sound mean...
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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 12:15:56 AM »

Not really. It just gets confusing at times.
I agree--especially when people switch between different characters very often. This, for me, is my main: I post most everything with this account, and will not post with another in any non-RPG-related thread (here, the CD forum, the Main OOC area, etc.)


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But need you any more?
Motion--


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How about swinging your arm around your head? If you can keep water in shape, you use normal physical effort to provide kinetic energy.
You would require a great deal of strength to lift it (depending on how large it is) and a great deal of strength to propel it through the air with enough force to damage enemies. As a general rule, mages aren't the strongest of people. They're academics, philosophers, thinkers--people who have spent their lives in the realm of the mind cogitating on Ximaxian philosophy


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I hate politics.
Me, too, but in order to keep the machine running, you have to be able to make compromises.


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Well, you could, technically...
The way I've come to see magic in Caelereth has nothing to do with bending (see A:TLA). Instead, you have a much more elegant system, almost a believable one. I think that, at least personally, I won't use any compromise-holes.
Fire Mages can shoot fire balls because they are able to make heat and motion.
Water Mages can have different attacks, that's what makes it interesting. If everyone could make an [Element]-Ball, where would we be? Boring-Land.
A purist--I appreciate that.  :) Fire mages can make heat and animation--and animation is a rather high-level magical concept (this property actually branches into necromancy). And yes, technically, I could tell the water mage that he can't throw water orbs, or a fire mage that he needs to be level 7 or 8 before he can actually form anything with the semblance of a fireball; however, the purpose here is to find a system that is cognitively interesting, not cognitively frustrating or off-putting. RPGs are, at their heart, a game, and games are meant to be fun. As long as we keep people from god-modding, I'm willing to let the low-level fire and water mages toss their respective projectiles accordingly.  :)


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Nice loophole.
It exists with all the magical systems. We can't always explain why the world works the way it does--not even our own universe. We come up with theories and philosophies, but there's always something that doesn't quite fit, always something more we need to research or ponder. The Ximaxian system is the same way.


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Hope I didn't sound mean...
You sound like a purist, and that's fine. In the end, it is those who understand the system and its limitations that we allow to play higher-level characters. However, as the 'magic moderator' and a magic developer, I don't want magic to be a cognitively impregnable system--wiping out the mage population on the boards and making the profession too much trouble to play--so I allow some flexibility.
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