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Author Topic: Ryvic Darkveil / Erpheronian / Raw (wild) water mage\Wandering Altruist  (Read 21513 times)
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Ryvic Darkveil
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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 03:48:52 PM »

Eep! Modified rather than replied. Hopefully I haven't done too much damage. Clearly I cannot be trusted as a Moderator.  buck
Only difference I can see is that you put some of what I wrote into your quote. Did I miss something?


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If his emotions get sparked during combat (i.e. he gets angry or somehow emboldened), then Raw Magic would pertain to both.
I can roll with that.


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All individuals who have an inclination towards magic have some Raw Magic at first. Usually this manifests in inclinations toward certain elements--in this case, water. (You'll remember from my CD that my character could sense children who had magical affinity, and for a time found them and brought them to the Academy, and helped place them in their respective school. Alyr could probably sense the spells Ryvic cast and, when she found him, would take him to Ximax to learn under the Water School. Of course, this didn't happen, but hopefully this weaves things into context a little).
He was supposed to be very close with water. Giving him powers of intuition, as well as making him need lots of water and little food. And perhaps making him vulnerable to fire.
So you are okay with those particular things? They're already in my S&W.


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Not necessarily. Your character may be emotionally unstable and may have difficulty in keeping his emotions in check, but he probably won't go about bursting into tears (unless he's sculpted into that sort of character). When his emotions reach a certain height, his judgment can't keep them in check, and he lashes out magically.
That's basically what I was looking for, thanks!



It's hard to figure out which questions I even want to ask, but I think your answers solved most of my issues for now.


Edit: For Ryvic to be like this and all, would he be one of the Gifted?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 03:55:59 PM by Ryvic Darkveil » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 02:39:42 AM »

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Only difference I can see is that you put some of what I wrote into your quote. Did I miss something?
No worries! An almost seamless cover-up. Maybe I'll go into digital forgery.  devilish j/k!


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So you are okay with those particular things? They're already in my S&W.
More or less, yes. I would expect the intuition as something that would develop over time as your character uses magic. In every spell a mage casts, she deepens her relationship with her associated element. It's natural for fire mages to have more fire ounia in their car'all than non-fire mages, and therefore for water mages to have more water ounia. A natural side-effect is that mages begin to resemble the qualities of the elements they practice--the magical equivalent of "you are what you eat" ("you are what you cast"?). The properties can be kept in check with a strong, conscientious will, but a little elemental inclination is inevitable. What properties of the element are expressed naturally in a mage's car'all, though, are of course subject to many factors (as a note).

The need for water is fine, but you may want to establish why. To be imbibing so much water implies that Ryvic is losing water ounia somehow and needs to replenish them more often than most. He could be using them for spells that involve the water being pulled from the environment around him (including himself). However, keep in mind that this falls into spheres of the third sphere--very powerful magic.


Just as a note on power: you've put in a lot of work learning the system and trying to work in it, so I'm giving you some flexibility, but in the end, it's not just me but all the administration that will need to decide if your character is too powerful. I will wait until I see the complete picture of Ryvic's magic and magical ability before I make that judgment call, and at this point in your CD's review, I've told the other moderators and minimoderates to let me work with you to get everything ironed out. I just want to give you a heads up. :)


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Edit: For Ryvic to be like this and all, would he be one of the Gifted?
Yes; only the Gifted have Raw Magic ability.
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Ryvic Darkveil
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 05:31:49 AM »

Everything I've found on Raw Magic points to it being different from Elemental Magic. It apparently is closer to Xeua Magic.
Ryvic is just supposed to do Elemental Magic without thinking consciously about it. I don't know/can't find anything about Raw Magic, so I'm pretty lost.
Help? Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 09:51:42 AM »

What little about Raw Magic is up on the site is likely incorrect. People have a lot of misconceptions about Raw Magic vs. Xeua Magic vs. Elven Magic, and tend to lump everything together because it's hard to conceive of the differences between them.

Elemental magic falls under Ximaxian classifications. Remember that the Ximaxian system isn't magical, by definition: it's a way of explaining the world and using those explanations to perform magic. Raw Magic CAN have elemental tendencies, where those who display Raw Magic (that is, magic that isn't cast within a 'system' like Ximaxian or clerical) show some tendencies toward certain elements. However, Raw Magic is not 'elemental magic' by definition because it is NOT part of the Ximaxian system.

What exactly are you looking for?
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Ryvic Darkveil
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2012, 01:59:18 PM »

What little about Raw Magic is up on the site is likely incorrect. People have a lot of misconceptions about Raw Magic vs. Xeua Magic vs. Elven Magic, and tend to lump everything together because it's hard to conceive of the differences between them.
The site here being the compendium or the dev forums? According to most of what I saw on the development forums, Raw Magic is supposed to alter Form, and isn't at all like Elemental Magic. The more I read, the less Raw Magic seemed like what Ryvic is supposed to use. I didn't see anything that made it seem like Raw Magic was associated with emotion, either. Of course, I think you just said my source is bad.

Links:
Raw Magic 101
Magic for Beginners Some of the conversation is about Raw Magic.
Quote from: Coren FrozenZephyr
"Raw Magic" as I understand it simply describes a type of magic which achieves its effects by directly altering the Form of the Carall.


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What exactly are you looking for?
What Raw Magic is and how it works, so that I can write about it in a clear and accurate manner. If you have any good links, that would be nice.


Edit: I have now read every instance of 'Raw Magic' on the Development Forums. (unless the searcher messed up) I found nothing saying that Raw Magic has to do with emotions.
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 03:39:46 PM »

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The site here being the compendium or the dev forums?
Both. Raw Magic isn't developed--and what has been developed clashes with systems already in place (or those being developed to be in place). The Ximaxian system is sort of priority #1, and at the moment, we're struggling to get that system up and in place. The system exists, but finding a way to organize it in some intelligible way is posing a challenge.

Altering form is very vague (you run into this a lot when you begin to dig back). Form gets altered through properties and through add/extracting ounia from a car'all. These can all be done through Ximaxian Magic. We've made a lot of decisions that have somewhat obviated the links you've posted. For example, Fox's example of the table is now explained through meta-states, a concept developed two years after that discussion.


There are no links. I admit, a lot of this I have to develop ad hoc, but (without diving into experience and qualifications) it holds water and works with the systems currently in place to achieve what you're trying to do. A lot of this will be repeat, but here's the best I can do: The beginnings of an entry. Hopefully this helps.


This is your character, and you are free to use whatever magical system you like, so long as it fits into the world. You don't have to use Raw Magic. If you're not comfortable with the concept, we can try to make Elemental Magic work. It will involve altering a lot of what you already have, and making a few sacrifices, but it can be done. Just let me know how I can help.  :)
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2012, 01:36:59 AM »

Altering form is very vague (you run into this a lot when you begin to dig back). Form gets altered through properties and through add/extracting ounia from a car'all. These can all be done through Ximaxian Magic. We've made a lot of decisions that have somewhat obviated the links you've posted. For example, Fox's example of the table is now explained through meta-states, a concept developed two years after that discussion.
Yeah, they were all written pre-'07.


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There are no links. I admit, a lot of this I have to develop ad hoc, but (without diving into experience and qualifications) it holds water and works with the systems currently in place to achieve what you're trying to do. A lot of this will be repeat, but here's the best I can do: The beginnings of an entry. Hopefully this helps.
Yes, that helps. It almost seems like you wrote it just to facilitate Ryvic, seeing as no previous (public) conversation said half of that stuff.


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This is your character, and you are free to use whatever magical system you like, so long as it fits into the world. You don't have to use Raw Magic. If you're not comfortable with the concept, we can try to make Elemental Magic work. It will involve altering a lot of what you already have, and making a few sacrifices, but it can be done. Just let me know how I can help.  :)
What kind of sacrifices?



I was thinking of ways to keep Ryvic's magic from being too powerful. My main idea is to have Ryvic be naturally inclined to water. His father then fixes his brain to not lose the power.
Either as a side-effect of preserving his power, or because of some teaching Khalron pounds into him, his power gets limited. I don't know.
I also don't know what the limitation could be. Perhaps he can only effect actual water, or he's limited to pretty much 'Water Magic'.

Althaniar, Khalron's old teacher, could also play a part in this. He could think (rightly or otherwise) that Ryvic will destroy himself with all his power. In the original history, Althaniar un-teaches Ryvic all the magic he knew consciously. Perhaps instead he could limit which emotions trigger magic, so that "battle emotions" still work, but less useful (or powerful, and thus draining) emotions don't make magic.

I don't know how much of this can work, or if there is a way similar that would work, or even if it would limit his power sufficiently, but there it is.
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2012, 11:33:11 AM »

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Yes, that helps. It almost seems like you wrote it just to facilitate Ryvic, seeing as no previous (public) conversation said half of that stuff.
Yes.  :)

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I was thinking of ways to keep Ryvic's magic from being too powerful. My main idea is to have Ryvic be naturally inclined to water. His father then fixes his brain to not lose the power.
Either as a side-effect of preserving his power, or because of some teaching Khalron pounds into him, his power gets limited. I don't know.
I also don't know what the limitation could be. Perhaps he can only effect actual water, or he's limited to pretty much 'Water Magic'.

Althaniar, Khalron's old teacher, could also play a part in this. He could think (rightly or otherwise) that Ryvic will destroy himself with all his power. In the original history, Althaniar un-teaches Ryvic all the magic he knew consciously. Perhaps instead he could limit which emotions trigger magic, so that "battle emotions" still work, but less useful (or powerful, and thus draining) emotions don't make magic.

I don't know how much of this can work, or if there is a way similar that would work, or even if it would limit his power sufficiently, but there it is.
Really, the best way to ensure you're limiting power is to give an itemized list of your spells and what they do, and then commit to limiting their use to once every few chapters in a story. Keep in mind, too, that you don't need to list all the spells your character will ever learn; you can always go back and edit and add to spells. As long as you're open about the spells (including exactly what they do), I'm not as concerned. If you want to try to make a back story to why these limitations are in place (i.e. why he can only cast 3-5 spells rather than 300-500 spells), we can work on that, but it's not necessary and probably not as important.

Sorry for the delay, BTW! So much going on.  buck
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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2012, 02:28:05 PM »

Yes.  :)

grin


Quote
Really, the best way to ensure you're limiting power is to give an itemized list of your spells and what they do, and then commit to limiting their use to once every few chapters in a story. Keep in mind, too, that you don't need to list all the spells your character will ever learn; you can always go back and edit and add to spells. As long as you're open about the spells (including exactly what they do), I'm not as concerned. If you want to try to make a back story to why these limitations are in place (i.e. why he can only cast 3-5 spells rather than 300-500 spells), we can work on that, but it's not necessary and probably not as important.
I was meaning an explanation in the history. It seems important to me, at least. If he's Gifted, and thus his magic is technically capable of anything, I should have a good explanation of why it's so limited.
Following the conversation on the Raw Magic entry, I think that what Coren has been defining as Wild Magic better fits what I'm looking for. Using Coren's definitions, Raw Magic is manipulating Form, which is as of now poorly defined. Wild Magic is simply magic without a system, a mediator; it's controlled by emotion. If I can say Ryvic is a "Wild Water Mage" (whatever the correct term would be), so that he does essentially what Ximaxian Mages would classify as Water Magic, but it's controlled by emotion, most of the 'limitation' problems are fixed automatically.
As long as my thoughts are pretty close to accurate, I think I'm finally (actually) ready to start on my first draft.

Oh, and I will have a spell list.


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Sorry for the delay, BTW! So much going on.  buck
I understand. I was getting close to PMing you, 'cause you were uncharacteristically absent.


Question: Can I call Khalron a wizard in the history? Or is it reserved for special folks - like 'enchanter'?
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Cyradin Lawabel
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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2012, 02:43:47 PM »

Question: Can I call Khalron a wizard in the history? Or is it reserved for special folks - like 'enchanter'?

From my perspective, the only thing you should never call a magic user is late for dinner ... not unless you want to BE dinner
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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2012, 11:39:36 PM »

Mages are capable of manipulating their chosen element in any number of ways. The spell lists are only examples of what can be done. Mods (like myself) like to see spells listed and how they are used by the character so we can be assured that the writer understands the magic system. I don't like to see word for word spells from the Dev forums, but rather unique ways the magic is used.

Traditionally, only Thalambath arcanists are typically called "wizards", while Ximaxian practitioners are called "mage/magus or magi (plural).

Other terms such as "enchanter", "illusionist" or "evoker" can be used to describe your mage. "necromancer" is also an oft used one for those who practice the art of animation (undead) spells.

Just try not to get too confused with Dungeons and Dragons terminology, although it can be easy to do.  ;)
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 01:00:12 AM »

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I was meaning an explanation in the history. It seems important to me, at least. If he's Gifted, and thus his magic is technically capable of anything, I should have a good explanation of why it's so limited.
Just to be clear: the Gifted are not necessarily those with extraordinarily powerful magical ability. Rather, they refer to those who have an inclination toward it. Most children are not born being capable of casting magic. 99% of the Academy's student population (or more) are not Gifted; they learned how to cast magic by learning the Xmaxian system. Gifted can be very powerful, but aren't necessarily. Gifted may be able to make waters flood their banks and the lightning strike, or they might merely be able to cause a small flame. There's just no telling.

The Gifted are generally trouble (in Caelereath) not because they're powerful, per se, but because they may be chaotic in their use of magic. That's why they're often gathered into the Academy to be taught control.

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Following the conversation on the Raw Magic entry, I think that what Coren has been defining as Wild Magic better fits what I'm looking for. Using Coren's definitions, Raw Magic is manipulating Form, which is as of now poorly defined. Wild Magic is simply magic without a system, a mediator; it's controlled by emotion. If I can say Ryvic is a "Wild Water Mage" (whatever the correct term would be), so that he does essentially what Ximaxian Mages would classify as Water Magic, but it's controlled by emotion, most of the 'limitation' problems are fixed automatically.
You're right: Wild Magic is probably the better term to use for now. I have my own objections to the notion of the "Form" of car'all, and would rather Raw Magic align with what's been discovered and developed, but that may take a while.  buck The 'limitation' issues are the same, though; whether you call it "Wild" or "Raw", it still refers to the same concept as it's been discussed here. (A magic by any other name would be as powerful!).

You get to determine how powerful Ryvic is, if you want him to be a Gifted. As a note: I'm all right with you being one of the Gifted, as long as you limit yourself, but I know if the rarity of Gifted may be an issue with other mods. That's something that'll need to be discussed and decided by the administration.

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As long as my thoughts are pretty close to accurate, I think I'm finally (actually) ready to start on my first draft.
Hopefully, if nothing else, it's been a learning experience.  :)

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Oh, and I will have a spell list.
Thanks!


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I understand. I was getting close to PMing you, 'cause you were uncharacteristically absent.
Yes.

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Question: Can I call Khalron a wizard in the history? Or is it reserved for special folks - like 'enchanter'?
Quote
Other terms such as "enchanter", "illusionist" or "evoker" can be used to describe your mage. "necromancer" is also an oft used one for those who practice the art of animation (undead) spells.
To add to what Malexia said: You can be an "enchanter" if you enchant. Enchanting is done (in Ximaxian terms) through the third sphere of Elemental Magic (involves manipulation of meta-states). "Illusionist" if you create illusions (sometimes considered wind, other times water). "Evoker" is generic enough, I think, that you can use it anwhere. "Necromancer", as Malexia noted, is reserved those those who practice the art of animation, located in the Fire school of Ximax.
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2012, 10:59:14 AM »

Just to be clear: the Gifted are not necessarily those with extraordinarily powerful magical ability. Rather, they refer to those who have an inclination toward it. Most children are not born being capable of casting magic. 99% of the Academy's student population (or more) are not Gifted; they learned how to cast magic by learning the Ximaxian system. Gifted can be very powerful, but aren't necessarily. Gifted may be able to make waters flood their banks and the lightning strike, or they might merely be able to cause a small flame. There's just no telling.
Oh. Well, that fixes a lot of things - thanks!  :)


Quote
The Gifted are generally trouble (in Caelereth) not because they're powerful, per se, but because they may be chaotic in their use of magic. That's why they're often gathered into the Academy to be taught control.
With the various training he's received, he has a little structure, but I think it's still systemless.


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You're right: Wild Magic is probably the better term to use for now. I have my own objections to the notion of the "Form" of car'all, and would rather Raw Magic align with what's been discovered and developed, but that may take a while.  buck The 'limitation' issues are the same, though; whether you call it "Wild" or "Raw", it still refers to the same concept as it's been discussed here. (A magic by any other name would be as powerful!).
The concept being systemless magic controlled by emotion, right?


Quote
You get to determine how powerful Ryvic is, if you want him to be a Gifted. As a note: I'm all right with you being one of the Gifted, as long as you limit yourself, but I know if the rarity of Gifted may be an issue with other mods. That's something that'll need to be discussed and decided by the administration.
Say, you never did tell me what sacrifices I would have to make to have him be a Ximaxian Mage.
            
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If you're not comfortable with the concept, we can try to make Elemental Magic work. It will involve altering a lot of what you already have, and making a few sacrifices, but it can be done.
                        
Unless it's too much trouble, could you give me an example or two? I hopefully won't need to do that, but in case the other mods disapprove...


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Hopefully, if nothing else, it's been a learning experience.  :)
Yes, now I know more about an imaginary universe than I ever thought possible! :) (Barring Star Wars, of course. :P)


Quote
Other terms such as "enchanter", "illusionist" or "evoker" can be used to describe your mage. "necromancer" is also an oft used one for those who practice the art of animation (undead) spells.
Quote
To add to what Malexia said: You can be an "enchanter" if you enchant. Enchanting is done (in Ximaxian terms) through the third sphere of Elemental Magic (involves manipulation of meta-states). "Illusionist" if you create illusions (sometimes considered wind, other times water). "Evoker" is generic enough, I think, that you can use it anywhere. "Necromancer", as Malexia noted, is reserved those those who practice the art of animation, located in the Fire school of Ximax.
I knew a couple of those, but thanks for the others!
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2012, 11:28:43 AM »

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The concept being systemless magic controlled by emotion, right?
Correct!

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Say, you never did tell me what sacrifices I would have to make to have him be a Ximaxian Mage. Unless it's too much trouble, could you give me an example or two? I hopefully won't need to do that, but in case the other mods disapprove...
We would probably need to limit the power of some of the spells. As a level 3 (or even level three or four) water mage, you probably wouldn't be able to achieve a lot of the spells mentioned. We would need to tone them down and perhaps employ the use of reagents. Some may need to be removed.

Ximaxian mages don't usually cast via emotion, though if youe character began learning magic at an early enough age, I'm sure that portion could be overlooked.

At this point, I wouldn't worry too much about whether the other mods approve or not.

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Yes, now I know more about an imaginary universe than I ever thought possible! :) (Barring Star Wars, of course. :P)
You are i good company, my friend. And don't worry! There is still more to learn!
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2012, 01:34:39 PM »

We would probably need to limit the power of some of the spells. As a level 3 (or even level three or four) water mage, you probably wouldn't be able to achieve a lot of the spells mentioned. We would need to tone them down and perhaps employ the use of reagents. Some may need to be removed.

Ximaxian mages don't usually cast via emotion, though if your character began learning magic at an early enough age, I'm sure that portion could be overlooked.

At this point, I wouldn't worry too much about whether the other mods approve or not.
I won't worry about it now, but it is good to know.


I should be able to work on my CD in earnest now. Here's hoping for the best! Thanks for all your many helpfulnesses.
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