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Author Topic: Magical Spheres - Basic Implications & Ideas  (Read 7540 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« on: 02 May 2004, 12:49:00 »

I see there are some clarifications necessary concerning magic in general, some more precise definitions and simplifications would be good to have as well. So I try to work towards this goal, and from there we can see where e.g. Enchantments have their place. The basics need to be there so that we then can see what makes an enchantment and what definitely isn't (and how we name other kinds of magic). So see these ideas here as a try to get the main things straight first before we move on to further details.

I've talked about a few things mentioned below already with Silfer, but it is necessary to bring this all in some kind of form, which then can be discussed to perhaps achieve some sort of agreement. In order to state a proposal here, this concept may differ slightly from what we have yet, but it intends to build on that. Too many things currently appear to be put together without a main guideline, and there is a need to change that into a strict organization, so that it is transparent where a spell fits, what level it can be cast, how the mage casting the spell can be called, and so on. If a categorization is possible, then it should also be more evident why a spell can work this way and not that way. It's not easy, though, but an attempt towards more detailed categorization is long overdue.

I basically summarize what I've stated in posts in this Forum within the last days and try to deduce some things from that:

We have 4 Elemental Schools, each of those has 3 Spheres. I'd like to make the definition of the sphere's more precise and use different words as we have on the site to demonstrate the differences.


1. THE BENDING SPHERE

The first sphere deals with "only" bending an item, an object in the elemental sense, which means: The mage only manipulates e.g. the fire parts (ouns) of the cár'áll (if he/she is a fire mage), making them more dominant or reducing their power. This means: The links around these elemental parts either turn to Ahm (passive) or to Soór (active). The mage only bends the appearance or the spirit of an item, object, person into a direction. However, the positions of the parts aren't changed at all, the fire parts are so to say simply "activated" or "deactivated" temporarily.

Consequence: Spells in this sphere will work best if the target has a pedominant orientation anyway already e.g. towards fire. E.g. if there is a small flame and the mage bends fire so that the fire in the flame is even more dominant, he can make a large flame arise. In the same way he can douse the flame by letting the fire links fall back to Ahm. Another (spiritual) example e.g. would be a Charm spell (ar a Wind mage), or an Illusion spell.

Quite naturally, this is a not very powerful way of casting magic, and as there is a tendency that the cár'áll reverts back to its natural form, this will happen sooner or later. The higher the mage's level, the longer he/she can keep the bended state.


2. THE GUIDING SPHERE

The second sphere can do what the first cannot. It actually changes the cár'áll. The mage regroups the elemental parts within the cár'áll and lets a certain element get in the lead, meaning: a certain element which previously wasn't central element will now become central oun. The links re-form according to this new situation. In this case the structure cannot revert itself naturally, because it was completely altered, following new principles.

Targets of this spell can be any items/objects, which have parts of an element, which can take the lead if activated accordingly. An example would be e.g. Frost Shield (Water spell), where the water contained in the air would be used to form a new structure.

This sphere is an advanced way to cast magic. It requires much more knowledge of the mage, as he/she needs to understand how to form central ouns.


3. THE CREATION SPHERE

The third sphere adds or removes an element (depending on the mage's orientation) to/from the target's cár'áll. The element can either be taken by surrounding objects/items etc. or it flows directly from the caster into the target. There it can be made into a central oun or an element among other elements, practically choosing if sphere 1 (temporary) or sphere 2 (permanent) will be the result when the element is added. Same thing the other way round. A mage could e.g. pull an element from something to strengthen himself/herself.

Target can be anything, there doesn't even need to be e.g. earth existing to a remarkable degree in the target.

This is the most advanced way of casting elemental magic, surpassing the level of expertise needed to do sphere 1 and 2.

---

Ok, these are the basic things I wanted to lay out. There are several implications if things work that way.


SPELL LEVELS

E.g. concerning spell levels. if there is a hierarchy of spell spheres, then sphere 1 would be the sphere which would be available already at the beginning for learning mages, so these spells could be cast already at lower levels. At level 5 sphere 2 spells could start, at level 9 or so sphere 3 spells.

This wouldn't imply however that there aren't any advanced sphere 1 spells, which wouldn't start at level 7 e.g. It only provides a logical reason why you can't cast a guiding sphere spell at level 1 for example.


MAGE TITLES

In this respect it could also be discussed if it wouldn't perhaps make sense to give mage titles according to what they actually can do, how proficient they are. If the spheres are an indicator of the proficiency of the mage, then maybe titles for each sphere could be found. E.g. it could be decided if an Enchanter produces temporary things (charm spell, lasting for a while) or permanent changes ("enchanted" sword), etc. - and nail the result down, if possible.


SPELL ORIENTATION

What Chronusian tried to sketch in his enchantment chart is not particularly helpful as the enchantment things still hang pretty much in the air. However, the property approach is very helpful for the general picture in respect of the spheres, so that we might deduce spells from that.

What I mean is this: An element has different properties, and a sphere (see definitions above) tells us on how something is transformed, either being bent, guided/led to chaos, or added/removed. Now if we see the different properties as the content (the What?) to the form of the sphere (the How?), we get a picture on what kind of spells there would be to develop.

Like for example - first we could think on what properties we can find for the element of Wind, e.g. lightness, turbulence, transparency etc. As an additional "property" we could e.g. see the element itself (add water etc.)

Then derive possible spells from there according to the spheres, which have a physical and a spiritual representation. And we have always two possiblities, a positive and a negative one.

So if we take "lightness" as an example we'd have:

Sphere 1: Physical, positive: Bend item to lightness (temporary)
Sphere 1: Physical, negative: Bend item away from lightness (temporary)
Sphere 1: Spiritual, positive: Bend spirit to lightness (temporary)
Sphere 1: Spiritual, negative: Bend spirit away from lightness (temporary)

Sphere 2: Physical, positive: Guide item to/through lightness (permanent, continuously)
Sphere 2: Physical, negative: Guide item away from lightness (permanent, continuously)
Sphere 2: Spiritual, positive: Guide spirit to lightness (permanent, continuously)
Sphere 2: Spiritual, negative: Guide spirit away from lightness (permanent, continuously)

Sphere 3: Physical, positive: Add lightness
Sphere 3: Physical, negative: Remove lightness
Sphere 3: Spiritual, positive: Add lightness to spirit
Sphere 3: Spiritual, negative: Remove lightness from spirit

Now in the uninterpreted form this perhaps doesn't look that spectacular - and not everything may make immediate sense, but it can help as a good bridge in order to find the spells we see as possible.

Short note on temporary (Sphere 1) and permanent (Sphere 2) effects: As it looks Sphere 1 spells are typical "cast and leave" spells, meaning: the spell is cast, the item is changed and remains this way until it "flows back" to its normal state. Sphere 2 spells are spells that need to be "held", allowing the caster to achieve a permanent result, but draining the caster's energy until the caster lets go (like Telekinesis, Wind Walking, but also spells where you can gather more and more energy to finally release it).

So let's take a closer look at the same spell to see what spells could be derived from that concept:

Sphere 1: Physical, positive: Khurzum's Featherling (used to reduce the weight of an extremely heavy item in order to be able to carry it for a short distance - good for adventure games to pick something up and move it to a pressure plate somewhere, where it is need;)   )
Sphere 1: Physical, negative: Khurzum's Unliftable Boulder (well, make something extremely heavy for a short periode)
Sphere 1: Spiritual, positive: Dundruf's Distracted Mind (makes lightheadedness as spiritual form of "lightness" dominant in the victim, forget duties, only temporary)
Sphere 1: Spiritual, negative: Dundruf's Restored Serenity (restores serenity as the name already implies, making it easier for someone who is distracted, either tired or under a spell's influence to focus on something e.g. on fighting)

Sphere 2: Physical, positive: Wind Walking (Make a person lighter than air, achieving a permanent result)
Sphere 2: Physical, negative: Destabilize (Disperses the stability keeping wind within a structure, so that it becomes e.g. earth dominated and crumbles)
Sphere 2: Spiritual, positive: Comfort (lifts sadness from a person's mind, target is completely relieved from prior effects)
Sphere 2: Spiritual, negative: (No idea here yet)

Sphere 3: Physical, positive: Levitate (Wind from the surroundings is added to something or created to keep things afloat)
Sphere 3: Physical, negative: (No idea here yet)
Sphere 3: Spiritual, positive: Dundruf's Whirl of Madness (enhanced version of Dundruf's Distracted Mind, where additional wind with the property lightness is added, resulting in increased frivolity, a very loose tongue and utter disorientation in the victim)
Sphere 3: Spiritual, negative: Remove lightness from spirit


SPELL FORMULAS

With the approach of targeting certain properties explicitely, we'd also have a more or less simple system for spell formulas, consisting of words for

- Element
- Sphere (how things are modified)
- Property (what is modified)
- Orientation (positive or negative, Ahm or Soór).


SPELL REAGENTS

Concerning reagents we could as well try to build a repertoire related to properties (e.g. what stands for transparency, what for lightness etc.) and add them accordingly to the spells.


---

The given spell examples are just the first guidelines. Categories according to properties would need to be thought through in detail and existing spells would need to be checked to meet such requirements. Though this system might not be easy either, it gives a direction. We'd get spell ideas, sphere allocations, level suggestions, formulas, reagents etc. all in this process of thinking about what results from a property at the various spheres. In the current "system" pretty much is still based on randomness, which undermines a consistent structuring eventually.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 5/2/04 9:22
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #1 on: 02 May 2004, 12:57:00 »

... All makes sense and could solve a lot of problems. However, I disagree with the level idea.

As I have mentioned on ICQ/MSN, Arti, how will you make e.g. "Call lightning" (level 11) and "Static bolt" (Level 5 i think) different spheres? IMHO, All the three spheres should be availible regardless of levels, as in: The spell decides the level and the sphere, but the level and the sphere should not have a connection.

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« Reply #2 on: 02 May 2004, 13:02:00 »

Ok, second part was added now as well. This completes the concept ideas.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 5/2/04 9:19
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« Reply #3 on: 03 May 2004, 03:45:00 »

As I have said, the spheres are fine - the spheres are that way already exept sphere two being permanent. Thus, no harm there, however, sphere two spells would not necessarily be channeling spells - e.g. Solidify, Arti.

Now, as for the spell examples and property examples - positive/negative and all that: I do not like it totally and completely. The reason is simple: If we account for all the possible qualities in the entry, we are limited to those qualities. I fear the amount of untraditional spells with good explanations will be greatly lower, resulting in a boring magic here.

Also, how would you classify e.g. "Static bolt" with this system? (I greatly desire to see all spells that are up and explained, to stay up, and assume people would agree to that)

Finally, I do not see other problems with this system, however, do we need the new things proposed here? IMHO, the sphere explanations (possibly with the addition of sphere two being permanent) are just explanations, not new ideas. The rest is new, and I want comments on if we need it.



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« Reply #4 on: 03 May 2004, 04:26:00 »

I have no problem with the first sphere. The permanence of the second sphere bothers me. You can turn a rock from a focus of earth to one of fire, and it may eat the rock for a moment, but in the end, the rock’s true nature (that of earth) will end up gaining the upper hand. I do think that the process in which the rock does this will be slower, but permanent? No. I don’t think so. In the end, the cár’áll still has the make-up of earth, and the natural inclination of the object itself to lean towards earth will change the focus. The natural balance of that cár’áll lends Earth focus.

I’m unclear on the explanation of the third sphere. This is a temporary connection, where oún are temporarily removed or added to a cár’áll. Is this agreed upon? Or is there something else we need to know? Some other explanation?

As of the Call lightning and Static bolt Silfer mentioned, I think that these spells might be changed in revisions to come. I do think it’s logical that level barriers be used to keep lower level from attempting higher spells, even though it will, undoubtedly, bring a lot of spell revisions. Luckily spell entries are easy to do.

For Spell Orientation, I agree partly with Silfer. I don’t want to limit things too much, but I do think that if we brainstorm, we should be able to produce a lot of different qualities. I also think that new qualities may be added. In the end, the Spell orientation is just further sub-dividing spell classes, correct? I think our only big problem will be that some of the qualities are hard to define.

Mage titles troubles me a bit. I think that if we diverge from the traditional “sorcerer” and magician” and maybe think up new, creative names, there shouldn’t be a problem.

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« Reply #5 on: 03 May 2004, 23:11:00 »

I AM HERE BECAUSE i KNOW ALL

Actually I have an idea for the toughest part of all this, the names.

Why not use the spectrum as it is something that seems to fit well with magic (magical colors *-* )

Level 1-2: Red xxxxx
Level 3-4: Orange xxxxx
Level 5: Yellow xxxxx
Level 6: Green xxxxx
Level 7-8: Blue xxxxx
Level 9-10: Indigo xxxxx
Level 11: Violet xxxxx
Level 12: Archmage.

The xxxxx can be any sort of magic title (mage, magi, magician, etc) you want, and the color would be the important thing.

M'hmm

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« Reply #6 on: 04 May 2004, 13:50:00 »

Wonderful wonderful, Clarity @ its best...



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« Reply #7 on: 04 May 2004, 14:07:00 »

Just to clarify the Static Bolt thingy: Yep, that's a perfect example for Sphere 2.

Though I have to admit that I don't like the term "permanent" I used above either, it was set up as a counterpoint to "temporary", and may be quite misleading. The thing is that a Sphere 2 either changes something (permanently) OR produces something new which is irreversible. Like the Static Bolt, that's a case 2. It produces energy out of the surroundings, something which gets a new quality, something which wasn't there before. Through the mage (working as a guide for the elements), energy gathers, and it needs to be released. That's the static bolt. Something irreversible is created. Well, of course the mage can tarry, get attacked while the energy is already there in his hands waiting to be released in a direction, but then the energy will be released instantly in a fizzling explosion or something. It won't flow back into the air or something. It has changed its quality already due to the mage's casting and will now follow the new elemental orientation.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 5/3/04 22:09
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« Reply #8 on: 04 May 2004, 14:58:00 »

So sphere two covers basically all of the direct offensive.... what's a good name for them.... flash attacks!

Because they're there and gone in a flash.  I'm talking about a fire mage making fire come out of his fingers, a wind mage shooting lightning, an ice mage shooting ice, and an earth mage throwing a rock at somebody.  

So for the sphere two spells you're manipulating the car'all around you to achieve a desired effect.  Would the third sphere be when a caster can use his own car'all to say, throw a fireball at someone?

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« Reply #9 on: 04 May 2004, 15:41:00 »

I still disagree that Sphere two can make something permanent. I think that a spell can cause an object to create an effect that will do something irreversable.

Static bolt (which I'm still weary of, and would really rather not use as an example for anything) accomplished the spell by separating the cár'áll into wind and earth. The attraction that wind has to Earth creates a great amount of energy. It is the energy that makes up the lightning. As far as I can tell, the cár'áll is unaffected. Perhaps part of the cár'áll moves from one hand to another, but this only balances the cár'áll, again proving the spell class to not be permanent. Whatever damage done is perhaps more irriversable. The scorch marks on the ground will always be there, but the cár'áll itself is again balanced, as it was before casting the spell. Of course, what happens to the cár'áll of the lightning itself (that which was never created, and which would imply this cár'áll doesn't exist) is a bit of a mystery.

And Kik, the problem with using colors is that each school has it's own colors, too. Refering to a mage as being a Red mage might imply he's a fire mage. Perhaps, thus, colors aren't the best ways to tell the difference between levels.

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« Reply #10 on: 05 May 2004, 05:39:00 »

The point of static bolt as example is that once you cast the lighting bolt, it cant be dispelled, nor can the damage be.

Non-permanent spells can be dispelled and vanish over time, sphere two spells on the other hand produces a one-time permanent effect, without duration.

On the working of static bolt: Let me try to explain this once more:

First, the prnciples I hold true, and which the spell is based on: One, car'all seeks to return to it's original state when it is altered. (Providing the alteration is "unstbale", just like uranium is ;) ) A sphere two alteration is "stable", and car'all happily stays that way.

Second principle: When car'all quickly reverts to it's original state due to one thing or another, it can lose soem of it's "mass", (again, like uranium turns into energy over time as it annahilates)

Thus, we first gather the wind car'all of both hand in one. Then, we release our hold. Car'all happily rushes to the other hand (to restore the balance) and in the process, it loses some of it's mass and that mass turns to energy. (In this case, lightning)

Does that sound sensible?

Edited by: Silfer Darkflare at: 5/4/04 13:47
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« Reply #11 on: 05 May 2004, 09:27:00 »

"And Kik, the problem with using colors is that each school has it's own colors, too. Refering to a mage as being a Red mage might imply he's a fire mage. Perhaps, thus, colors aren't the best ways to tell the difference between levels."

I got pwned again :[

"A sphere two alteration is "stable", and car'all happily stays that way."

I am assuming that the above comment was directed at your static bolt spell (that is what you were talking about after all).

I agree with rayne on this (at least I think I do) about the static bolt thing.  It seems to me that because the overall structure of the car'all in the mage's hands returns to normal once the spell is finished doing it's thing, it would be sphere one.  There is no perminant restructuring, just a temporary change.  If you shoot a lazer pointer at someone and blind them, the lazer pointer does not change, but they are blinded for life.  Same thing seems to happen with static bolt.  A temporary spell creates a perminant effect.

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« Reply #12 on: 05 May 2004, 10:45:00 »

I disagree,

If I would be to use the example with the lazer pointer, in my spell you don't jsut shoot a lazer at the enemy. Or, you do, but to create that lazer beam, you annahilate a small part of the pointer itself. Thus, car'all IS permanently changed, and it is Sphere two.

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« Reply #13 on: 05 May 2004, 12:00:00 »

Yes, of course some of the battery would be used up, but that does not alter the overall structure of the lazer pointer.  

Is sphere two's perminance defined as the overall structure of an item, or the car'all count, for lack of a better term?

Kik here btw ^^;

Edited by: Calyx Redwood at: 5/4/04 20:03
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« Reply #14 on: 05 May 2004, 17:11:00 »

Your first and second priciples take a lot of liberty with the kind of cár'áll you're working with. Cár'áll gets changed and switches all the time. When you're angry, the fire oán naturally expend, or maybe even present a focus in the cár'áll. When you're feeling light and air-headed, then your cár'áll has taken to wind cár'áll. Their are natural imbalances all the time. Sometimes the effects quickly change, but usually, then don't.

I don't believe that cár'áll looses "mass." You're giving the power of Ecuá to Elemental magi.

You're also confusing what cár'áll is. The entry states that cár'áll is “natural astral aura of all things or beings” and "life's substance ("soul")." Yet, here, you're using it as though cár'áll where physical, like an atom. You're taking something rather spiritual and turning it into something physical.

Also, you're picturing cár'áll as something contrained within the body, almost as though it were the skin and bone and flesh of your body. Obviously, it's not. I see cár'áll as something that surrounds you with a larger radius than that. It's an aura - it surrounds you, is both inside and outside of your physical body. Mages are all the time reaching and changing things with their cár'áll.

Cár'áll changes all the time, and splitting the cár'áll may create magic strain, but it's only using up a sort of spiritual energy, not physical energy.

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