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Author Topic: Ounia & expression of properties-an alternative solution  (Read 9095 times)
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« on: 09 May 2006, 07:59:00 »

I would like to put forward an alternative solution to how ounia express properties. I think: All ounia have the capacity to express all possible properties (of its own element) and indeed usually an oun does express all the properties that are currently ‘active’ in an object (to distil it even further: currently active in the part of the object(‘s carall) that oun is located in).

I think of properties as separate layers to an oun so that reducing or stopping one layer/property from working does not necessarily increase another property in the same oun. An oun can express more than one of its properties at the same time, but what properties are expressed depends on which are currently activated, “given voice to” (through links).


Question Okay, this all sounds lovely and logical and all but why do we need this? The current theory (Rayne’s Ounia thread) is that although an oun has the capacity for all the properties of its element, it can only express one property at a time. Why should we change that?

I am going to apply somewhat of a Socratic Method of asking questions and responding to illustrate what I think the current theory cannot cover. My side of the argument (rhetorical/leading questions as well the answers) as usual is in blue.

If we accept that an oun can only communicate one property at a time:

Question 1: Say we have a man who is madly in love (which means most of the fire ounia are now expressing the “passion/love” property). Since/If some of the fire ounia that previously had to express “heat” (remember: 1 property at a time), which as a result gave the body a certain temperature, now have to switch to expressing the property of “passion/love” to work as cupids, shouldn’t one start freezing?

Question-Answer 1a: Hey wait a second! Did some ounia have to express heat to begin with?
Answer to 1a: Of course a certain amount/percentage of fire ounia has to express heat if the body is not frozen. An object, and its composition as well as its qualities (in this case the body temperature) are merely a reflection of the current composition (what is active) in the carall.

Question-Answer 1b: Busted... But hey, I’m not giving in just yet: Is it the amount of fire ounia that decides the strength of a property and not the %?
Answer to 1b: Yes percentage of active ounia decides on the intensity of expressed property but: If some of the “heat ounia” are now transferred into “passion”, does that not alter the percentage? Since some of the “heat ounia” out of the total fire ounia can no longer express heat as they are busy articulating their passion, the percentage of heat-expressing fire ounia out of the overall sum of fire ounia should now be lower. If the percentage is lower then the property of heat is no longer expressed as strongly/dominantly as before. If heat is less, the object is not as hot at it used to be anymore (so it began cooling).

Question-Answer 1c: That still rests on the assumption that some of the “heat-ounia” had to be converted to “passion-ounia”. Some ounia may express heat, but there are many more that express other things – why not steal from those?
Answer to 1c: You’re missing the point here… But alright, let’s turn the example around to make things a bit more clear by focusing on the extremes, the edges: Say a man is on fire; can he miraculously stop burning by falling in love? Well that is a very romantic idea – love being the saviour of us all and everything but I’m not at all convinced about its practical value…

When you continue heating an inflammable object at one point it starts burning. That establishes the correlation between the property of heat and fire (heat causing something to catch fire), so no escapes there.

For such a drastic change as burning to happen, the predominant quality of/property in the carall at that point should be burning/heat. There has to be a great percentage of fire ounia expressing “heat” to tyrannize the other properties contributed to the carall by other ounia/elements.

(Side-remark: Btw, if carall is dominated by other than Fire, man is not burning. On that point, it is not useful to argue that for something to burn you need an overweight of Fire vs Water, not a “great amount”: If a carall is 10% Fire and only 1% Water then Fire crushingly overweighs Water (a 10 to 1 proportion). But that still leaves the major part of the carall as either Wind or Earth. The property of heat cannot dominate the other qualities of the carall (maybe this carall belonged to a bulb of hot/warm air: 80%wind and 10% heat/fire). Hence, man is not burning)

Easy way out?: If we say that a property has a physical and a spiritual side, your problem vanishes. Because then, when fire ounia express heat that gives us both heat physical and passion (heat spiritual).

Answer: Interesting… So every time you burn, you feel a great wave of passion erupting in your soul? That gives a whole new perspective to “burning passion” I guess…  

And turning the example around again: If someone feels bursting with love/lust, will he soon burst into flames and catch fire? Touché!

So we can’t say:
1. A property has both a physical and spiritual representation; when an oun radiates a property both the physical and the spiritual expression of that property are voiced. Earth for instance has a property of “solidity”: physical solidity is solidity in the literal sense, hardness whereas ‘spiritual solidity’ might reflect stubbornness, obstinacy etc. A rock might be very solid, but I have yet to run into a stubborn rock…

2. A property has two sides (physical and spiritual significance of that attribute), but an oun can only express one of those at the same time. That brings us right back to where we started… Doesn’t work.

3. An oun can represent both aspects of a property at the same time but does not necessarily do so all the time (ie whenever you are in love/lust, a spontaneous combustion does not automatically take place). If you say this then you have already conceded to my alternative of having an oun capable of expressing more than one property at a time. Saying “But this only applies to the two sides of the same property” is poor arguing; you are making an assertion but not supporting it by logic. Conceptually you have already agreed to the “layers conjecture” and now attempting to make an artificial distinction through nomenclature (how you define “property”). Saying “spiritual solidity is obstinacy” or “passion is spiritual heat” is an abstraction, an analogy. You are actually creating/assigning a new feature (‘property’? ;)      ) to an element by means of an analogy, by likening an abstract notion/feature to a physical property you already know of through observation.


But let me not leave the argument here (spiritual/physical properties) but continue refining the path drawn by the string of questions in order to banish all doubt from your mind. Let us now focus only on physical aspects. Once again I am working with the “an oun can only express one property at one time” assumption in an attempt to challenge and hopefully disprove it:


Hypothetical situation: I am an incredibly powerful Xeua mage intent on making a bonfire. What I need to do of course is to put as many active links as possible to ounia expressing the property of heat to give voice to that property in the carall.

The Conservation Principle states that the overall amount/balance/proportion of active and passive links in the Carall must be the same. So every new link that is activated means another link has just gone passive somewhere in the carall.

So, metaphorically speaking, every time I transfer an active link to a “heat oun” I am “stealing” a link from another oun (or: from another property but since property=oun here no difference).

Question 2: Then why do burning objects emit light (a different property of Fire) if burning itself is initiated by an increase in “heat”?

Question 3: Also why does that light become brighter as the burning intensifies (burning intensifies because the heat intensifies)?

Explanation (of what the questions intend to point at): (a) Burning intensifies as heat increases and (b) we know from observation that as the fire gets stronger (ie burning intensifies) the light emitted by that fire becomes brighter / more light is emanates from the fire. We all know the difference of illuminating pitch-dark dungeons by a single candle or by a massive torch.

“Brighter light” actually can be interpreted to mean “more light” (or to be precise: “more light emanating at the same time from the same spot”). [I will not go into colour and hues here] This too we know from observation: Two candles illuminate better than a single candle.

So: the amount of light a fire produces – or as a common observer would think: the brightness of that light is related to the amount of ounia expressing the light property of Fire.

Answers: So the answer we can give to questions 2 and 3 at best would be at this point: From observation we know that when something starts burning it not only produces heat but also starts giving out light. We are not sure why and what exactly, but through some not-yet-known mechanism, when the fire starts some of the Fire ounia will automatically start expressing the property of “light” as well (so now we also have these “light ounia” that pop out). So a fire = heat ounia + light ounia

Back to the example: The fire is still not intense enough for my taste so I put the maximum number of links active around “heat ounia”. The consequence of that of course is that links elsewhere in the carall suddenly go “poof” (passive) – those ‘dejected links’ could have been from the ounia of different elements or even Fire ounia expressing properties other than “heat”. (Remember: My objective is heat here. Heat is what I am after, I don’t care what happens so long as I get my heat – I don’t have to worry myself about keeping the fire to emit light in order not to embarrass Nature with a fire that doesn’t give out light).


At one point I will ‘steal’ links from “light ounia” to increase the heat (though presumably I wouldn’t get turn to fire links (expressing something other than heat) until I have run out of possible links elsewhere (other elements)).

Question 4: In short: at one point I will have to usurp light to get more heat (as we keep increasing the heat). The logical conclusion that should follow from here is that as our bonfire intensifies and rages due to increased heat its light should grow dimmer. But we know from observation that a bigger, more intense, stronger fire means more light – the torch vs candle! So why does the fire grow dimmer as it gets hotter according to your model? Another point is that after the links I might even start transforming “light ounia” to “heat ounia” (since all ounia have the capacity to express all their properties but can only express one at a given time – I simply make all the fire ounia express heat and nothing else).

Answer 4: Yes, that does sound a bit ridiculous… If we keep increasing fire on and on (through heat) eventually light should vanish – that is what logic dictates here…
Question: So you have just invented a fire that burns without light?
Answer: But hey – hang on! 1) Fire needs matter to consume to grow 2) Fire by definition (from what we observe) = heat + light

So: What we get is a very hot object, no longer “fire/on flames”.

Question 5: Molten metal… Doesn’t “burn” (no flames) but it glows. So matter whether an object catches fire or not (that is why I started at the very beginning by saying “increasing the heat of an inflammable object”) when you continue heating an object at one point it will start to emit light – whether that light comes from the flames or from an ‘inner flame’ (molten metal) ;)      
Answer: I know molten metal glows (ie a metal starts to glow as you heat it) but that is not maximum heat.
Question: But as you continue heating the metal, the light intensifies not the other way around. So logically as you get closer and closer to maximum heat, the glow becomes brighter and brighter…



How does my alternative solve this issue?
An oun has the capacity to express all possible properties of its element and can indeed be expressing more than one property (physical or spiritual) at the same time. How many properties are expressed in an oun at a given time or which properties are expressed may change according to the circumstances. I therefore think of properties as separate layers to an oun where increasing one would not weaken another.

So: The mage can increase the “heat” property of all fire ounia without having to steal their “light” property at one point for instance. Say you have 10 Fire ounia in total. At the end of the Xeua example all 10 out of 10 of those ounia are expressing their heat property. But say 4 out of those 10 could have been expressing both heat and light. This may also help explain why light doesn’t always increase in the same amount/proportion as heat.

What happens at the theoretical extreme given in the Xeua example is: All fire ounia are working to their maximum heat capacity. But that does not prevent them form working in their other capacities (light for instance). So even when something is burning to the maximum (all fire ounia expressing heat), you can still cause it to feel lust (some of those ounia (their links) can be manipulated to express a spiritual property, passion, as well).





If what I say up to here makes sense, I will move on to patch the things that you might point out as holes in my alternative (eg. If an oun can express more than one of its properties at a time, then how does, how can a mage alter a single property only?)




If you found the flow above to be logical and the examples simple the greater portion of the thanks should go to Silfer as he spent several hours discussing the issue with me. So I had a chance to order my thoughts when I wrote this. But the gods know it took me several hours to write the above anyway! Simplifying things and putting swirling thoughts in a logical flow that builds up is so hard! Definitely not my forte…

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 5/8/06 19:00
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #1 on: 09 May 2006, 09:18:00 »

AAAA! So long!  I've read the first question and I like what you are saying however you would have to re-write the whole article and all spells that mention ounia would need to be edited.  Wouldn't this be considered a new 'system of magic" and therefore be banned?

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« Reply #2 on: 09 May 2006, 09:34:00 »

No Drasil, he's working with our actual system.

IMHO, we need to state that ouns can expres diferent properties at once, but can't expres all properties, so a rock won't be stuborn, a fire won't be passionated and so on.  

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« Reply #3 on: 09 May 2006, 09:51:00 »

(actualy Orril, they can.. but since a rock itself cannot show the world its stubbornness, you don't notice...)

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #4 on: 09 May 2006, 09:55:00 »

Quote:
IMHO, we need to state that ouns can expres diferent properties at once, but can't expres all properties, so a rock won't be stuborn, a fire won't be passionated and so on


Orril: Ounia are elemental. Even in this alternative theory, a fire oun can only express fire-related properties. A Fire oun cannot express a property of invisibility (ascribed to Wind) for instance but it can express two Fire properties (eg heat & light) at the same time.


EDIT:
@Drasil: No spells would have to be rewritten. This doesn't change the system only seeks to explain it (ie provide an explanation for effects and ounia manipulation we know are possible). Please read the whole thing...

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 5/8/06 18:02
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« Reply #5 on: 09 May 2006, 10:35:00 »

OK  I'll read the whole thing tonight

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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #6 on: 09 May 2006, 13:51:00 »

Guys - Coren here is doing a very good deed, and is putting a lot of effort into it. By all means criticize and poke holes in his creation (I am, mostly on IM ATM, but I will get to it here as well), but PLEASE, give him the honor he deserves! Don't make semantically-null statements here.  

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« Reply #7 on: 10 May 2006, 08:16:00 »

I am impressed, Coren.  

Quote:
so that reducing or stopping one layer/property from working does not necessarily increase another property in the same oun.

Uhm...I'm pretty sure that's never been part of our theories, not that it matters much here.  This is a good piece of work, and very well presented.  I wonder if it might be possible to santharise it and put it up on the site.  Then again, I really would like to see what Rayne has to say about this.  It could certainly lead to some very interesting discussions.  

I have to say though, you must have a lot more free time than I do if you managed to think through the whole thing.  I barely started before thinking, "I'll argue with Rayne about this some other time".  


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« Reply #8 on: 10 May 2006, 15:19:00 »

I'm a bit swamped at the moment (and too tired to think too much right now) so I'll read over it later :)  

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« Reply #9 on: 10 May 2006, 15:43:00 »

I like the idea. The property issue was one that needed fixing in the old entry. Unfortunately, I have a lot of trouble following this method of explanation (writing Socratic dialogues isn't one of your strong points, Coren--which is just as well. You have enough strong points as it is. ;) )

I'll try to push through this when I get a moment, though I would much prefer an online discussion.

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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #10 on: 11 May 2006, 07:06:00 »

Quote:
If a carall is 10% Fire and only 1% Water then Fire crushingly overweighs Water (a 10 to 1 proportion).

That’s only true if you’re starting from the point of view where a neutral cár’áll has 25% of each element. What if 10% would be enough to make something catch fire?

Quote:
An oun can represent both aspects of a property at the same time but does not necessarily do so all the time (ie whenever you are in love/lust, a spontaneous combustion does not automatically take place).

The physical part is more then just being ablaze. Generally these feeling will give you a faster heartbeat and such, so I would say that they is nearly always a relation between them.

Quote:
So, metaphorically speaking, every time I transfer an active link to a “heat oun” I am “stealing” a link from another oun (or: from another property but since property=oun here no difference).

A bit of an unrelated question that just popped in my mind reading this: if an oun is linked to multiple other ounia, does it have a stronger effect? This might give some advanced (high level) sphere I casting.

But to your proposition: sure, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work or why an oun could only have one property (I can’t remember reading that anywhere either).

PS: I do agree that the dialogues are a bit confusing.

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #11 on: 11 May 2006, 08:51:00 »

Quote:
That’s only true if you’re starting from the point of view where a neutral cár’áll has 25% of each element. What if 10% would be enough to make something catch fire?


Read the next few sentences Marvin. I disagree. You can't make something burn with only %10 of the carall Fire. Even when you distribute the remaining three elements equally (which wasn't the case in my example) they still do not leave room for that 10% to dominate the carall.


Quote:
An oun can represent both aspects of a property at the same time but does not necessarily do so all the time (ie whenever you are in love/lust, a spontaneous combustion does not automatically take place).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The physical part is more then just being ablaze. Generally these feeling will give you a faster heartbeat and such, so I would say that they is nearly always a relation between them

That example takes only the property of "heat" and (it's spiritual counterpart) "lust/passion" into its focus. Animation would have been a different property and hence has no place in this example (1 oun = 1 property)


Quote:
if an oun is linked to multiple other ounia, does it have a stronger effect?

Speculating, I would say yes - if the same properties are linked (or both ounia are expressing the same property). But I don't know if this stronger effect would be 1(link strength)+1(link strength)=2 (the general linking principle, so not really 'strenghtened' in the sense you mean) or 1+1=more than 2

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 5/10/06 18:14
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« Reply #12 on: 11 May 2006, 09:24:00 »

Links, by their very nature, link stuff together - so links always link two ounia. But I think we should avoid going there just yet - let's have something to stand on before we jump.

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« Reply #13 on: 11 May 2006, 09:42:00 »

Yes, but I was thinking about one oun being linked to multiple other ones, not one link connecting more then two ounia (like the pics show in the Schools of Magic entry.

But yeah, probably best to wait a bit with jumping.

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Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 5/10/06 17:42
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« Reply #14 on: 11 May 2006, 13:51:00 »

First of all: That's quite a good explanation, at least for Forum purposes. We can't make an entry out of it in that form though as it is quite technical.

What I would also like to mention here is that people often approach magical discussions with the conviction that there is a system (or should be a system) which has all the answers, which we should describe properly. By thinking that way we forget completely that magic is still being discussed by the scholars in Ximax, just like philosophy is still being discussed: the basics should be clear - but there is room for views and interpretations. Actually that's the funny and interesting thing - that it isn't all explainable by applying scheme X. There can be different models to explain the same things, the can be schools of thought, even within the Ximaxian theoretical constructions.

Especially the layer comparison give here is very helpful regarding the properties theory, it's much better than anything we have officially defined yet in this context:D

It gets a bit quantity dominated here at some arguments, though. This is probably my own fault as I used quantity examples in the schools definitions to explain qualities within a cár'áll. So the examples given here follow this to a certain degree, while a layer explanation already hints more at the quality.

BTW: I personally always thought that the assigning of properties to a cár'áll doesn't mean that you give e.g. the fire ouns the properties, but that you make active links with this property, e.g. a heat link or a light link. Due to the change of the structure the cár'áll might react by activating related property links, so that a secondary fire property is activated together with the primary one.


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