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Author Topic: Powers of a mage?  (Read 7394 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #15 on: 02 July 2006, 00:03:00 »

Orril, you are contradicting yourself. If your Cár'áll is altered because you did too much casting, how can you then cast another spell who accelerates this getting back in the normal state?? some processes are not possible to speed up, I assume.

Thanks for answering my question. I know enough now to go on. Didn't want to break of another discussion! ;)  

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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #16 on: 02 July 2006, 01:08:00 »

Quote:
I was under the impression that all elements except for earth revert back to their original Car'all almost instantaneously.

Depends. They do with sphere I, but sphere II changes can take some time. Sphere III changes can last a long time.

And Earth reverses equally fast/slow as the other elements. There's a difference between a physical side and car'all.

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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #17 on: 02 July 2006, 10:51:00 »

Oh.  I just thought because of the slowness and unwillingness to move of the element of earth would effect the amount of time it takes to revert because it definatly effects the initial change.  IMHO, the slower the action, the slower the reaction.

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #18 on: 05 July 2006, 13:51:00 »

@Talia: That quote is the exact section I based my answer on ;)

I don't get what Koldar is trying to say there...

@Mina&Marvin: Okay I can't evade exposing my thoughts anymore so a post outlining my general premises and convictions on magic theory will follow

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #19 on: 05 July 2006, 14:29:00 »

The Carall is this essence, this magical energy out of which everything is created: the essence on which everything in physical reality is based on / is a reflection of. So while everything has a carall, the Carall exists beyond (“beneath”) the physical dimension we see around us and is in fact its essence. In this sense the Carall is the substance of Existence. That is the primary meaning of the Carall on which the rest of the Ximaxian theory (on carall) is based.

So the Carall is the magical energy out of which every single thing in existence is created. At the same time this energy holds everything together and in relation to each other under a pattern. Call this resulting picture the “Cosmological Design” if you like; the Highest “Idea”, the “Idea of the Universe”. (BTW: One thing you should note here is that I have not equated the Carall to the Design/Idea)

Thus the Carall is the sand in Artimidor’s sand-elephant example, it is – in a metaphorical sense – the matter, the substance out of which everything existing / Reality is sculpted. Therefore in a sense, the magician in casting magic imitates the Gods / the Will of Nature (whichever you choose to believe in).

The Carall is (magical) Energy. This energy has a Form and a Content. (Notice again that I deliberately refrained from saying: “The carall is Form and the carall is Content.” We really need to rid the magic entries on the site of such confusing, exclusive phrases – especially when in one section the entry says “the Carall is Form” and in another “the Carall is Content”…)

The Idea, the abstract concept, through the Form, dictates the blueprint of the (carall’s) Structure. (Ok, now you may say there is no practical difference between Form and Idea but I will try to differentiate the two a bit, hoping it will help shed some light to why I insist on Raw magic & direct alteration of Form)

The Content is the actual realization of the intangible Idea. It is the (corporeal) manifestation of the abstract concept. Each entity is an individualization of the Idea it belongs to. This is what Content is all about. The Content is the actual elephant you see, the resulting concrete entity you build from the sand (sand: “substance/essence of existence” = energy = carall/aura).


The Content of a carall has two aspects: Substance and Structure. The Substance is the actual “material”, the energy that makes up the carall. Structure defines the overall design in which “the what is in there”, the actual Substance of the aura is arranged. Just as ounia are the building-blocks of the Substance of the carall, the links build up the specific arrangement/configuration that is Structure. These xeua links are the ropes/chains that tie each fraction/component, the “ounia”, of the Substance. They (the links) are the “glue” that holds the Substance of a carall, the magical energy together. (Btw: In this sense the elves talk about (the Principle of) Xeua holding Life together).

What we call the Aura (Carall) is actually a form of energy. The essence of the aura/carall is actually “the” prime energy. Everything else existing, physical objects as well as different types of energy like heat, light, electricity, are merely “qualifications” (from “quality”) of this auratic energy Ximax calls “carall”. To quote Art: “An object is cár'áll/energy brought into shape with the possibility of changing into something else.”

Let’s recap: The essence of the aura is energy. What the elves call THE CARALL is an aura that underlies the whole universe (Humans: “Universal Carall”). Everything in the universe is created from this source, from this single energy. Actually let us rephrase that: Everything existing is a “reflection”, an “embodiment”, a “qualification”, an “incarnation” of this energy.

This is why I think Artimidor keeps saying he sees the aura as “possibilities of creation”. The Carall is this “infinite potential” for being. The Carall, the aura, is this pure, ‘unprocessed’ energy. It harbours infinite possibilities of creation in it – simply because it is the “uncarved block” (as a Taoist would say). And since everything existing has a carall, or more accurately: is an incarnated, a ‘processed’ form of a part of the Universal Energy/Aura, the Carall can also be seen as The Defining Principle. It defines what is in existence, distinguishes the Real from the Unreal. But this paragraph is just about the philosophical appreciation of what the Carall stands for and the philosophical ramifications of the existence of a Universal Aura defining, unifying everything existing. As such it is probably of little interest to your practical queries. So read the paragraph above again and skipping this philosophical “bubble” move straight on to the following paragraph.

So the aura is pure energy – or rather the purest form of energy. But this energy, the energy that is the carall, can assume different qualities (can be “qualified”). There are 4 main conditions of auratic energy: These are the four elemental energies of Wind, Earth, Water and Fire. The Elements define the four main states the Prime Energy (Carall) has. Each state, each elemental condition, defines certain characteristics for the auratic energy - or to state differently: bestows upon the Aura/Prime Energy certain qualities. (I am delving into philosophy now but perhaps we should correct that last phrase to: Each elemental condition ascribes a certain quality to the Prime (Auratic) Energy through exclusion. The Carall is the Prime Energy from which everything issues. Since it is ‘the mother of All’, since it is ‘infinite potential’ a logical deduction would be that Auratic Energy (carall) in its pure form already possesses all possible qualities. Sort of like Carall being White Light and different elemental energies being the different colours of the spectrum. So the Elemental Condition of Fire for instance ascribes properties/qualities we have come to associate with Fire only because it excludes all other qualities of the Prime(pure) Energy. You get red light only because you block all the other colours in a ray of white sunlight.)

Since Carall is energy it only makes sense if the actual material (“Substance”) it is composed of is also energy. Imo: An oun is an immense concentration of elemental energy. Ounia can be likened to photons on a ray of light. While a photon is only a very concentrated ‘package’ of energy, due to its incredible density/intensity acts like a particle while the rest of the ray acts like a wave as a whole. The same relationship between ounia and the Aura: We speak of ‘moving’/’adding’/’removing’ ounia to explain the energy transactions, the transfer & transformation of magical energies involved in spell-casting. While an oun harbours within itself all the qualities of the elemental energy it is composed of, Ximaxian mages (I know that Marvin, Mina & Silfer do) treat it more like matter, as a particle that can be ‘moved’ around in the aura and between carallia to achieve certain effects. In a sense ounia are “quantified”, it is the smallest unit of the carall – you either move an oun or don’t, there is no such thing as ‘adding half an oun’ to x part of the aura. Therefore it is okay to view ounia as the “atoms of the carall” – like Mina & Marvin does - to some extent. So the “lego” or “puzzle” method of viewing the Carall and magic, where you make slight modifications to the parts/components to achieve effects/give certain characteristics to the overall object is not incorrect but incomplete. Now I’ve heard all three of you say that this whole “magical energy” business has become outdated, that the theory has ‘moved on’. You put forward evidence that in the past two years these Form, Raw Magic, the carall as magical energy concepts have never been referred to on the Magic Board to support your claim. But that is seeing only half of the issue. Form of the Carall and Ideas have never been mentioned explicitly on the board – which have ‘evolved’ and now deals mainly with spell creation btw – because Ximaxian magic deals with the Content of the carall only. We never spoke about weaving strands of energy or idea-substitution because Elemental Mages (arch-schools included) can only manipulate the Content by modifying the parts that make up the Substance and the links between those components. We have never officially abandoned Artimidor’s original concept. Only details of the lego-model is needed to write spell entries so if other intrinsic parts of magic theory have not been discussed/dictated to newbies, that is only because of the implicit understanding that all newcomers to magic are expected to READ and MAKE SENSE OUT OF the theoretical stuff that is already on the site. I agree given the awful organization – “dis-organization”? – of the magic menu (no thematic classification) and the obscure language of the actual entries the latter part might have been very difficult.

I have no intention of provoking quarrels so I promise this is the last time I am repeating this point unless it becomes absolutely necessary yet again. Moving on:

A brief exposition of my thoughts on Ounia: An oun is a great concentration of elemental energy. I consider them to be the building blocks of the carall – and therefore all of Life. An oun is “the summary of an Element”: A fire-oun for instance can be viewed as a condensed form of the raw energy that is Element of Fire and all it represents. Consequently, an oun harbours within itself all the qualities – and the potential to express, impose upon the object these as individual properties – of its Element. Likewise, even a single oun mirrors the Cosmological Purpose (or “Existential Orientation” if you like – though I will argue in the extended version of my theory that there is a subtle difference between the two) of the Element it is composed of – or shall we say: the Element it ‘reflects’? As such the Oun is the Prime Elemental Entity, the smallest elemental particle, the “summary of an Element”.

Back to the main flow of this lengthy discourse:

We have mentioned that the Structure represents the precise arrangement/composition of the Substance of the Carall (the energy of/that is the carall); it includes every single detail delineating that specific configuration. In this sense the Structure forms the skeleton of the carall’s content; it defines how exactly the Content (the manifestation of the abstract concept, the resulting concrete entity) should look like.

Of course no two entities can have the EXACT same Structure (for each entity is an individual, unique manifestation of an Idea), but there are similarities between the carall structures of two objects of the same kind. It is these similarities that help us identify two objects as objects of the same “kind” (Each “kind” is of course the reflection of an intangible Idea – or to put it differently: Each of these classifications represents an abstract concept we name the “Idea”). We can analytically examine these similarities, assemble them together and construct/make out a pattern from them. This ‘pattern’ signifies the Highest Common Factor among objects of the same kind. From this exercise we draw the conclusion that: Each carall of the same “type” has a pattern identifying it as being a carall of that type (as Mina put it).


Now let’s read this in the light of what I had written at the beginning: “The Idea, the abstract concept, through the Form, dictates the blueprint of the (carall’s) Structure.”

The Form of a Carall outlines its Structure. This ‘outline’ is the “pattern”, the Highest Common Factor that is shared by all objects of the same “kind” we just spoke of. Note again that this ‘pattern’ is only a subset, an “abstract”/summary if you like, of the whole Structure.

The Idea, the all-inclusive, is extrapolated from this pattern/HCF. In my opinion: Elves would believe in the actual existence of Ideas (what they call “The Thoughts of Ava”) as separate entities (?) outside Reality much like Plato. The Universal Aura, the Carall, permeates the whole of Existence. It is “the world beneath the World” (btw I copyright that expression for the Krean). The elves usually speak of carall in a universal sense btw.  Just as the Carall is the “world beneath the World”, Ideas lie on a world beyond the world lies beneath the World. The World of Ideas, the Thoughts of Ava, therefore is separate from the Universe, past Reality. Ideas exist beyond the reach of anything in this Reality. They cannot be manipulated – even “touched” – by mortals (this includes the strongest of Ximaxian mages; and yes, I am going to draw a parallel to Raw Magic soon).
Human Ximaxian mages would say “Ideas” are just an abstraction, a theoretical concept extrapolated from the Form of the Carall. It is immaterial and irrelevant whether Ideas in fact exist or not. Btw, I find myself inclined more towards the elven conception but that is just a personal preference of course.

I wrote “The Idea can be extrapolated from this pattern/HCF” but for the vast majority of cases that can be translated to: The abstract concept that is the Idea can be extrapolated from the Form of a carall. This is because most of the time it is clear just what an object is; to put it differently, most of the time an object is the realization of only one Idea: A table is a table, a spoon is a spoon, a bird is a bird.

I am careful to maintain this distinction as I think the answer to the borderline cases Silfer mentioned lies there. Imagine an object that not only functions as both fe a table and a chair but also looks like both. At first sight it is not immediately apparent what this object is – whether it is a table or a chair. So we say two Ideas, the Idea of a Chair and the Idea of a Table, are reflected in the Carall’s Form. Correspondingly, the carall’s Form contains both “patterns” (or perhaps better to say ‘elements form both patterns’). The Form here is a mixture of two Ideas. But through this Form a new concept, the “Table-Chair” Idea, has been created. Or depending on what you believe you can also claim that the Table-Chair Idea already existed (i.e. ALL possible ideas exist), but it has only now been “realized” in corporeality.

Then there is the issue of a hierarchy between ideas. Think of this hierarchy not primarily of importance but of generality. This is needed to satisfy Silfer’s second worry: that the effects of “Idea substitution” are too chaotic, too uncertain. Looking at an object you may instantly say for instance that its carall has the Human Form. But you can funnel it down from Human to Man (as opposed to Woman) than to Old Man than to Sick Old Man etc. At same time you can go the opposite way, up the ladder: Existing(Real) < Animate (Living) < Sentient < Humanoid (Elf, human, dwarf etc) < Human. Understandably, the more general the form the less similarities will be shared; the more specific the Forms, the more the object will resemble each other. Related to this is what I call “Idea Subsets”, where one subset Idea can be the CONTENT of the superset Idea: eg; The Idea of a Chair within the greater Idea of a Room. This last point still needs some polishing…

What are the ramifications of this? That there are “patterns within the pattern” imposed on the carall’s Structure by its Form. The smallest subset will be a reflection of the most general Idea the entity is a manifestation of. And of course logic will tell us that the more specific we go, the more shared features will appear and thus the larger, the more extensive/detailed the relevant pattern will become.
       
A Raw Mage with the talent will choose the necessary Form according to the task at hand. For example, he may just substitute the Sick-Man Idea with Healthy-Man Idea to cure someone instead of having to insert a Perfect-Man Idea. Or he can refine his focus even more and just concentrate on the specific disease (eg “Cancer” Idea).

So when a mage talks about “the Form of a Carall” he usually refers to the most obvious (this is somewhat subjective of course and depends heavily on the issue) “pattern” the Structure of that aura bears. The actual Form of the carall of course includes reflections/ “seeds” of all possible Ideas that entity might belong to.

To recapitulate the main point in this sub-section:
So you can say I use “Idea” in the Plato-sense to signify an intangible, all-inclusive concept from which each “type”/kind/category/class is reflected in corporeality ((Note: I didn’t use ‘corporal’).


Xeua/ecua & manipulation of Form + “mould” issues:

Even if the actual substance, some ounia, is removed, the blueprint – of what needs to be where and in what intensity – is still there. That is why the Form is so important – and why it is an indispensable assumption in magic theory to explain various occurrences. This is why Xeua/Ecua can never alter the Form directly. All they can ever hope to achieve – and this is no small task – is reworking the Structure - by shifting the links that hold up that skeleton – to such a point where the “pattern” contained in it resembles another pattern which would have been imposed by a different Idea. The Carall always wants to revert to its original state - because there is an idea, a cosmological design, the carall of the object needs to be in line with. If the Xeuatan maintains the new state long enough or if the change is too drastic (like losing an entire limb for a humanoid creature) for the Natural Will of the Carall to re-correct, then the aura undergoes a gradual shift in its Form.

The Form decrees how things are supposed to be. This is why all magic is essentially an act of opposition – against the natural will of things (against the natural will/state of their carall) and indeed against ‘the’ Natural Will. (So to answer Orril: “When a mage cast a spell, he tries to put his will over the natural will of a Cár'áll” > yes, that is always the case for any magical act.) That is also why I think Artimidor has said a mage first becomes Elemental then goes through Xeua and finally ends up as a “monk” (this is not to be taken in the literal sense as a bald-headed cleric living in a monastery on a mountaintop). He realizes that all magical intervention has the potential to well… “interfere” with the Divine Plan, disrupt the Natural Order of the Universe. And due to the immense devotion and respect he has developed for the Carall (universal) and hence Life, he refuses to upset or strain the cosmological balance anymore – at least no more than is absolutely necessary. This signifies the shift from the “Doing-Self” to the “Being-Self” (see also Ursula LeGuin’s EarthSea quartet).


Now back to the question of the different ways – Xeua/Ecua and Raw -of manipulating Form:

So Xeua and Ecua change the Structure by mending all the links they can lay hands on and hope that somewhere in there the “pattern” too has been modified…

But how does my precious Raw Magic complete the same assignment? Firstly: What is Raw magic? What differentiates a Raw Mage from all other wizards?

Raw magic is the ability to use strands of pure (“raw”) auratic energy to create (“craft”) the desired effects/ends.

The first key difference here is that they do not need to work with what is there – altering its various components to affect a greater conversion on the whole. Instead of having to wreck their minds to make the pieces fit, they can just create the missing pieces.

Therefore, “raw magic is essentially a magic of creation” – hmm… where have you heard that before? ;)  

Let’s restate the vital principle: Raw mages handle pure energy (auratic energy, ‘the raw(unprocessed, ‘unqualified’) energy that composes the Carall). They are able to touch the Form, which – as mentioned earlier on – lies outside Reality/the tangible universe, because they work directly with the Prime Energy (the energy of ‘the’ Carall in its prime form) that constructs & powers Existence.

One little detail: Raw mages can not only use this raw energy as it is to create (ie fashion new carallia) but can also manipulate, “tune”/refine it to different qualities. (pink skirt > blue skirt; see below)

I should point out as a side-note that the only difference I see between Weavers and other raw magi is in method: the technique they use to process, operate and conduct pure auratic energy. Loosely speaking, a Weaver takes fibres of energy and binds (‘weaves’) them together to create while the standard raw mage f.e. can only seize that energy in ‘lumps’. At any rate this is not only irrelevant but also immaterial – at least for now.

The highest mode of raw magic would be “Idea Substitution”. This is probably god-level work. These are so ‘gifted’ that they need not bother even about lacing strands from the Prime Energy consciously to form the required model. All they do is to envision the finished version and the strands weave themselves. The existing ‘Idea’ is swapped – keep in mind my musings about Idea Hierarchies though – with a different one and the carall immediately begins rearranging itself to fit the new Form it has been given through the Idea.

Now let’s consolidate all this abstract theorization with two concrete examples: the “Skirt” and the “Elephant”

Imagine you have a skirt of bright pink colour in your hand. You never really fancied skirts so you wish to make something else out of it. The Xeuatan is the tailor; he will cut a few threads here, stitch them somewhere else until he has finally ‘tailored’ pants out of the skirt. Every now and then while making all these minor alterations he had to look up to the ‘pant-model’ hanging on the wall as a reference point. He has succeeded in converting the skirt into pants but the resulting piece is still bright pink. All through he had to work with the given fabric. The pants are still of the same material that composed the skirt. So while the cloth (the ‘essence’/material of the aura) has remained the same, the fabric (inherently ‘unprocessed’ like auratic energy) has been crafted into a different idea/concept. The Raw Mage is the weaver, instead of having to adjust the skirt here and there he can just unravel the shaped-product (the skirt) back to its raw form (pink fabric) and spin more of that fabric where necessary until he has a pair of pants fashioned. The ultimate raw-mage just decrees “Pants!” and immediately the skirt unmakes itself and pink yarn volunteer out from the spinning wheel and together the two weave themselves into the form (Form? ;)   ) of a pair of pants. The raw-mage grins smugly and leans back on his chair while his pipe is busy lighting itself. Don’t ask what a Raw-master will do with pinks pants – powerful man are eccentric.

Now homework: Can you transpose the above paragraph and write out the sand-elephant example yourself?




Okay you now have enough of a snap-shot of my general thoughts on magic to move onto specific questions:

Question 1: How can car'all be drained? The only thing I can think of is ounia disappearing, which doesn't make sense to me (why? which ones?)

Carall is (magical/pure) energy. Think of magic draining the carall not as some of its components evaporating or being consumed to power the spell. Instead think of the drain of spell-casting as a “dimming” of the ‘brightness’ of the aura.

I already wanted to hint at this in “Ounia & Expression of Properties”, but I guess the suggestion was too implicit. An elemental mage would tune the influence/dominance of his element (or to be precise: adjust how strongly an oun expresses its qualities) as you would regulate the ‘intensity’ of the flame in a gas-lamp (“Coren’s Lamp”). The lamp = the oun ; the flame = one of the elemental properties/qualities of the oun ; turning of the valve to adjust intensity of light/heat = sphere 1 manipulation

Now fatigue, the dimming of the overall ‘brightness’ of the aura, functions a bit differently. I am making the assumption that not all of the aura – not all of the aura’s energy – is “qualified”/specialized; some of it remains in the pure, “un-carved” state.

Or maybe a certain portion of each oun’s energy is exists in its pure state, as raw auratic energy. Accepting an oun is a concentration of elemental energy that does make sense. We can even speculate that a portion of the oun (that immense concentration of energy) has to stay in its pure form to keep the elementalized energy together. Either a) that pure ‘core’ acting like a magnet to attract elemental energy around itself and keep it there OR b) the pure energy acting as the Guiding/Defining Principle of the oun, ‘qualifying’ some of the auratic energy into the relevant elemental energy that constitutes the oun and preventing it from converting – further ‘qualifying’ – into something else. That should also explain why each oun is dedicated to one element only (fe why a water-oun does not suddenly become an earth-oun). It is kind of cool: we have a microcosm of the whole “Idea” theory, the pure energy core performing the function of Ideas on a microcosmic level! This does add a new meaning to carall – auratic energy – being the essence of existence (!) But we digress…

Any physical activity (that includes the working of the brain) requires energy to be completed. Pure auratic energy needs to be converted to power the physical exertion. So for instance Wind might control the property of motion but the actual energy your body uses to move your leg comes from the pure energy of the aura. Santharians don’t need to know that the energy your body uses for physical activities is essentially an outcome of this process called respiration where the oxygen produced there is later used in the cells to burn food down to these little units of energy called “ATP”.

Casting magic is a lot more exhausting from other activities that require a similar amount of concentration or exertion because it is a direct drain on the aura (which is “magical energy”). Let us for one moment assume that playing chess/aiming an arrow and casting Raise Flame both require “hundred units” of energy (type not specified). But the hundred units of pure/auratic energy exhausted in directing/focusing the magical energies involved in casting (I know you don’t like this expression so let’s rephrase to: the actual energy needed to ‘turn on the valve’ (sp1) or moving fire-ounia closer (sp2) etc) can a much tiring effect than hundred units of ordinary mental energy needed for concentration which is converted/processed from only 2 units of pure energy. So even a single unit of the pure, unadulterated energy of the aura can produce / be converted to a much much greater quantity of eg physical or mental energy. Auratic energy in its pure form probably exists in infinitely intense concentration compared to other forms of energy > hence another justification of the label ‘pure’.


Ximaxian mages cannot “draw energy from their surroundings” to power the act of casting (ie not the actual energy produced by the spell – which can be done by s3 – but energy required from the mage to bring about the necessary changes in the target aura). Because that would meaning either a) ounia being broken down to supply pure energy – and I certainly don’t want arcane nuclear-reactors in Santharia OR b) drawing that energy directly from the environment, which means being able to touch and channel pure auratic energy – which only Raw mages should be able to do.

The logical conclusion then would be that only raw mages can draw power from surroundings. The most straightforward way to do this would be of course to access the reserve of auratic energy that exists in pure form in surrounding carallia (see above). Raw mages should be able – at least in theory – to break ounia down to supply pure energy but I am not convinced about the shrewdness of doing that when there is so much raw/pure energy available all around. Firstly, only the most skilled – those who have ultimately mastered handling energy in its raw form – raw magi would even contemplate about tearing an oun apart – and only the most desperate will actually attempt the act. Secondly, only the most powerful of raw mages can actual split an oun as dismantling such a tremendously concentrated concentration of energy – so concentrated that it can in fact be moved about (sp2) like matter without being dissipated – requires a force I cannot readily imagine. Further, that using so much energy does defeat the purpose: of tearing the oun apart to utilize the issuing energy in another spell. Short of raising another Mithrals I can’t imagine a spell that would require so much energy in the first place… Thirdly, the oun would probably erupt in an explosion too powerful and horrid to be contemplated never to mention ‘tamed’ or controlled. Fourthly, the result would be probably horribly chaotic as you are now messing around with the very fabric of the Dream in its most condensed form.

So no mage in his right mind raw or not would even think about tearing apart ounia to power a puny mortal spell. And if a mage is actually bold enough to attempt and powerful, wise, smart (though this is open to debate), erudite enough to actually pull it off – well, he does deserve a ticket to godhood…

The moral in condensed form: Not all energy of the aura is qualified. Drain = from pure energy = “dimming of brightness” overall of the Aura.

EDIT: Okay, another reason for not an elemental mage not being able to consume ounia through exhaustion – or rather why he can’t burn down a small, negligible oun somewhere in the carall to empower “one last spell” – occurred to me: That would be against a carall’s primary purpose: existing (Remember the phrases “The Carall is the Esssence of Existence” ; “The Carall is the Defining Principle of reality/existence”?). The mage’s carall simply won’t permit him to tear holes in its fabric to shape more spells. An inbuilt “safety-lock” if you like to ensure survival… Maybe this “threshold” can be surmounted – though I highly doubt it – but that would require an act of willpower and magical force surely a mage too fatigued to even cast a single spell can accomplish.  

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 7/4/06 22:38
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"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #20 on: 05 July 2006, 14:33:00 »

:lol  
Quote:
brief


I better watch the rest of the game now ;)  

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #21 on: 05 July 2006, 14:33:00 »

Questions I have answered
Quote:
'car'all is energy' thing

Quote:
When a mage cast a spell, he tries to put his will over the natural will of a Cár'áll > always the case

Quote:
How can car'all be drained? The only thing I can think of is ounia disappearing, which doesn't make sense to me (why? which ones?)







Questions I will answer
Quote:
This cár'áll is energy, but it isn't used up, the mould still exists (unless it's a Sphere III spell, which adds this energy), it was only reorganized to make an effect possible. So the energy won't be used up, but it would need a time to get back into the natural order and enable further casting.


Quote:
how Coren's statement that human magi draw car'all from other sources could work


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If your Cár'áll is altered because you did too much casting, how can you then cast another spell who accelerates this getting back in the normal state??


Quote:
what discerns a fire mage from a water mage apart from his "affinity"?


Quote:
because of the slowness and unwillingness to move of the element of earth would effect the amount of time it takes to revert because it definatly effects the initial change. IMHO, the slower the action, the slower the reaction


Quote:
Personally I think that Ximaxians would rather think the other way around: 'a mages car'all is altered as well when althers another car'all'. altering their own spiritual cár'áll, using it to attract other cár'allía in the surroundings to achieve an effect. What the caster's cár'áll does is to "get itself into shape" to form a mould to achieve an effect

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 7/5/06 8:18
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« Reply #22 on: 05 July 2006, 15:16:00 »

:jawdrop *dies*:
This will take a while to process.  I hope you don't mind waiting a few days, possibly more, for me to try understand what you've just said and before I see if I can poke holes in it.  


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« Reply #23 on: 05 July 2006, 21:52:00 »

Coren, that statement of "The mage get into shape to form a mould..." Or like that (last sentence of your post) sounds like a shapeshift.

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« Reply #24 on: 06 July 2006, 00:15:00 »

Orril that last post is a collection of quotes voicing concerns or inquiries I have or will attempt to answer. See Artimidor's original post for the whole version of the line you mentioned, it doesn't concern shapeshifting.

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« Reply #25 on: 06 July 2006, 04:34:00 »

Just a short statement here form my side:

Though I'm not completely through with the text yet, what I've read so far (approx. two thirds) is done excellently once again - and hopefully will clarify many questions which are always floating around here on the Forum. I can pretty much agree with everything I've read so far, so methinks Coren proves once again that he has a firm grip on magic. Very well done! :thumbup  

Will try to read up on the rest soon:)  


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/5/06 12:34
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« Reply #26 on: 06 July 2006, 11:59:00 »

Just another note:

There always seem to be 2 main problems with magic stuff:

1.) explaining it in "Earthen" 21st century terms so that everyone "gets it"
2.) getting this info on the site in Compendium form, because if 1.) is secured (hopefully we made another step in this direction now), then we still don't have a thing on the site as a result And if 2.) doesn't happen, questions arise again bit by bit, resulting in needs for 1.) and it starts all over again.

As a measure for 2.) I suggest to make some sort of "Magic Dictionary" to be put on top of the Magic Forum. Here all terms of relevance, whether this is cár'áll, oún, perhaps until form, content, etc. should be explained in a short paragraph (Compendium-style however) with links to the whole entry (if one exists). This way at least the terminology could be nailed down more or less, e.g. to avoid ambiguous usage of terms like "form", which surely has happened in the past. It's good that you tried to formulate things as clear as possible, Coren, but we now need to get this on site with any means we can. (Providing this thread here doesn't lead again into endless discussions, which was tried to avoid with this detailed, admittedly not-so-brief, exposition.)


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/5/06 19:59
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« Reply #27 on: 07 July 2006, 06:13:00 »

Well, so far I got to the Raw-master with his pinks pants and I'm still following. I'll read the rest later as I have to go now.

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« Reply #28 on: 08 July 2006, 00:03:00 »

Coren, the first thing I will say is, you are crazy!  The 'long' presentation I've been working on (which will probaly be scrapped now) is nowhere near this length.  :|

I must say, I was quite surprised to encounter Taoism here.  I didn't know you're familiar with it too.  :D   I'm also seeing quite a bit of physics here, which is intersting.  I'd never thought that these three things had much in common, especialy when one of them isn't even dealing with the real world.  Now, time to examine your post.  :x


Quote:
So the Carall is the magical energy out of which every single thing in existence is created. At the same time this energy holds everything together and in relation to each other under a pattern. Call this resulting picture the “Cosmological Design” if you like; the Highest “Idea”, the “Idea of the Universe”. (BTW: One thing you should note here is that I have not equated the Carall to the Design/Idea)

So, am I right to say that Car'all, when given the Pattern of Caelereth, results in Caelereth as we know it?  I also notice that you have "car'all" and "Car'all".  I am guessing you use the capitalised version to refer to the whole thing, and the lower-case version to refer to the substance which specific things are made of, right?  

Quote:
The Content is the actual realization of the intangible Idea.

Perhaps Content is not such a good name for it?  The term "content" usually refers to that which is contained within something.  I see no element of that here.  Instead, it is, as you put it, a manifestation, of sorts.  

Quote:
The Content of a carall has two aspects: Substance and Structure. The Substance is the actual “material”, the energy that makes up the carall.

I am afraid this part causes some confusion to me.  Is car'all not equal to the Substance?  

Quote:
And since everything existing has a carall, or more accurately: is an incarnated, a ‘processed’ form of a part of the Universal Energy/Aura, the Carall can also be seen as The Defining Principle. It defines what is in existence, distinguishes the Real from the Unreal.

Another part I don't really get.  As far as I understand from your writing so far, car'all is not that which defines, but that which is defined (or qualified, incarnated, etc) in order to form that which exists.  How, then, can it be the Defining Principle?  

Quote:
Ounia can be likened to photons on a ray of light. While a photon is only a very concentrated ‘package’ of energy, due to its incredible density/intensity acts like a particle while the rest of the ray acts like a wave as a whole.

Mmm...I am not entire sure about this.  I admit that I'm not very good with physics, but I was under the impression that photons are not what you would call concentrated energy.  That would be matter.  Photons would be the smallest unit of energy (or more specifically, radiation), ie. you can't split it any further, so to call it "concentrated", I must say, sounds pretty odd.  Also, I should point out that this is what pretty much I meant when I likened ounia to atoms---they are what you get if you keep splitting the car'all until it can't be split any further, though I think you've already got that.  

Quote:
The Form of a Carall outlines its Structure. This ‘outline’ is the “pattern”, the Highest Common Factor that is shared by all objects of the same “kind” we just spoke of.

So the Form is the pattern followed by the Structure, right?  
Also, in relation to the hierarchy thingy, perhaps the Structure could be considered a Form too?  To give an example, could there be a Form of Artimidor, which is a type of Form of Old Sages, which is a type of Form of Old Men, etc?  

Quote:
In my opinion: Elves would believe in the actual existence of Ideas (what they call “The Thoughts of Ava”) as separate entities (?) outside Reality much like Plato.

This is one of the more iffy parts to me.  I'm no expert on elves, of course, but I really doubt that they'd believe in the idea of Ideas being separate entities.  IMO, one of the defining features of their beliefs would be the "inter-connectedness of all things".  More likely, I think, is that they believe in the existence of an "Ultimate Idea", the "Dream of Avá", of which all Ideas are part of.  It's best to get the opinion of one of the experts like Rayne though.  

Quote:
Btw, I find myself inclined more towards the elven conception but that is just a personal preference of course.

Heh, I lean more towards the human intepretation (if inded that is what it is).  IMO, it might well be the mind which finds patterns in things, ie. that Nature does not actually order itself in any specific ways, but the mind enables one to see similarities between different things.  

Quote:
This is why Xeua/Ecua can never alter the Form directly. All they can ever hope to achieve – and this is no small task – is reworking the Structure - by shifting the links that hold up that skeleton – to such a point where the “pattern” contained in it resembles another pattern which would have been imposed by a different Idea.

Alright, this is the part that makes it seem as if my earlier assumption that Form = pattern is wrong.  What actaully is Form, then?  

Quote:
That is also why I think Artimidor has said a mage first becomes Elemental then goes through Xeua and finally ends up as a “monk” (this is not to be taken in the literal sense as a bald-headed cleric living in a monastery on a mountaintop). He realizes that all magical intervention has the potential to well… “interfere” with the Divine Plan, disrupt the Natural Order of the Universe. And due to the immense devotion and respect he has developed for the Carall (universal) and hence Life, he refuses to upset or strain the cosmological balance anymore – at least no more than is absolutely necessary.

I'm glad this has been cleared up, though you guys could have done it earlier.  :p   (BTW, if you ever intend to use that line again, "sage" might be a better term than "monk", which is almost always used to refer to an ascetic member of a religious order.  "Divine Plan" might not be the best term to use either...)  If I'm not mistaken, you are basically saying that they come to understand and follow the principle of wu wei, right?  In that case, I don't think it's necessary to become a xeua/ecua mage before being able to reach this stage; it's not even necessary to be a mage.  Wisdom is the key quality here.  

Quote:
Raw magic is the ability to use strands of pure (“raw”) auratic energy to create (“craft”) the desired effects/ends.

Here is where I really start to get lost.  Strands of energy?  What?  I suppose you could be saying that they are using the pure energy that is the Car'all to create new manifestations, or convert existing manifestations back into raw energy, allowing even more possibilities than xeua and ecua, but, well, I'm not sure.  

Quote:
They are able to touch the Form, which – as mentioned earlier on – lies outside Reality/the tangible universe

Um, wasn't that Idea rather than Form?  I'm pretty sure by now that I really didn't get what "Form" means.  

Quote:
I should point out as a side-note that the only difference I see between Weavers and other raw magi is in method:

Lets forget about Weavers for now, okay?  :)   As I've said before, Rayne was making them into figures that appear only in mythology, though I suppose bored magi speculating on how their supposed abilities work might come up with the ideas you mention here.  

Quote:
I am making the assumption that not all of the aura – not all of the aura’s energy – is “qualified”/specialized; some of it remains in the pure, “un-carved” state.

Hmm...I'm not sure I'm getting this right, but are you proposing that not energy take the form of ounia?  In that case, won't it be a contradiction to call ounia the smalelst unit of the car'all?  I suppose though, that it doesn't contradict the idea that ounia are concentrated energy.  

Quote:
[next paragraph]

Uh, what?  Now it's reading like ounia consists of parts.  :veryconfused

Quote:
Pure auratic energy needs to be converted to power the physical exertion.

Um, converted into what?  

Quote:
[stuff about tearing apart ounia]

Well, apart from introducing magical nuclear reactions to Caelereth, another reason not to have that at all would be that, assuming ounia are the smallest units of the "pure energy", then it makes no sense that it can be torn apart to produce more energy, as that would imply that even smaller units exist.  Nuclear reactions work because matter is very concentrated energy (as far as I can understand it); tearing apart photons would be impossible, as far as I know.  


Wow, I made it through all that alive.  :lol
Well, I guess I don't have much problems with that, though a glossary, like Arti suggested, is probably really necessary.  It seems, on more than a few points, we mainly differed in what we meant by certain terms, though I admit it does seem you have a more complete picture of magic than I do.  

There is one rather glaring omission I noticed though.  What is xeua?  All you said about them was "These xeua links are the ropes/chains that tie each fraction/component, the “ounia”, of the Substance".  Compared to what you said about everything else, that's really lacking.  Come on, I want to know what you really think of them, what they are, what they do, and all that.  :hammer

Unless I'm mistaken, I also think you'd also have to decide what ounia really are: concentrated packets of raw energy or the smallest units of energy, which cannot be further divided.

Now it's time for a break.    


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« Reply #29 on: 08 July 2006, 04:27:00 »

Not even going to try to explain most of that, i can answer the phisics part of your photon question Mina.

Photons are a strange form of matter, not unlike electrons. these particles are BOTH material particles as they are electromagnetic waves. (and no coren, there is no 'rest of the ray'.. a beam of light consists only of a stream of photon particles.. or a lot of waves, whatever you want to see in it.)

the problem here is that the definition of matter and energy are slowly getting outdated... at a certain point, matter is energy, and vice versa. Sometimes i feel like modern science is slowly going backwards, instead of making things clear, it's only getting more vague, riddled with borderline cases..

So you can split up photons... and they will falla part, revealing that they are nothing more than little em-waves... It's confusing, and i myself have always found it hard to imagine a particle/wave. But apparently it works, according to the bright minds of our world..

Miraran Tehuriden..

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