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[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

B.S.
15000      Elven Myth: The Emission of the Four
13000      Elven Myth: The Return of the Four
3500      The Immigration of the Santerrans
3000      The Cyrathrim Arrival in the Calmarios Forest
2433      The Reign of Jhelim the Great
1700      The Fall of the Murmillion Kingdom
1649      The Reign of Asthalon the Black
      Santerrans begin settling on the mainland
1554      The Documentation of the Mira'Shijm Runes
1400      The Book of Jhalán
800      Cyrathrhim Refusal to participate in the War
589      Birth of Aiá'merán
498      Aia'merán declared Aellenrhim Ránn
433      Building of the Great Library in the Bolder
328      Aehrín Hélvil'avásh born
320      Rage of the Isle-Kingdoms
298      First Attacks of the Darkfriends
293      Devastating Orc Raid on the Calmarios
292      The Battle of Four Swords
      The Coming of the Races to Denilou
235      Aehrín Hélvil'avásh becomes Ronn of Maeverhim elves
210      Orcs decimate THE AELLENRHIM ELVES
      The Rape of Aiá'merán by Coór'melór
      Death of Aiá'merán during Childbirth
207      Destruction of the Great Library
110      Aehrín Hélvil'avásh died
3      Aellenrhim recruit other Tribe Members
0      Kassite Border Duties

A.S.   
298      The "Oath of the Three Seakings"
363      Founding of the Kingdom of Aca-Santerra
422      Founding of the Aca-Santerran Duchy of Altyr
600      Santerran Expansion along the Jerrah
715      Moving of the Aca-Santerran Capital to Altyr
875      Korweyn overruns the Green Fields
876      Peace between Korweyn and Ac-Santerra in exchange for the Green Fields
878      Construction of the Great Harbour of Altyr is started
962      Completion of the Aca-Santerran Port of Barkhas
1000            expansion of the Highkingdom in Nybelmar comes to a halt
1002      Struggle for the Ferrath Islands
1072      Struggle for the Ferrath Islands Ends
1087      The Ferrath Islands stay under the control of Anis-Anpagan
1300      The Cyrathrhim Revival

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Art, this is what I was getting at, though this is a VERY rough draft.  This is just the first 10 or so entries in the compendium.  As it got longer, we could break it down into smaller eras, say 100-200 years.  Then, if I want to place a person or an event into the early 200's B.S., immediately I'm made aware of two unrelated entries that may or may not be relevent to me, but it is in one place at a glance. 
Where i think this would come in handy is not so much in the smaller entries, bestiary, herbarium, and even most biographies, but the larger entries of major places, royal lines, wars, etc.

As everyone added, we would need to update this timeline with each compendium update.  Now, lots of entries in the compendium have history tables at the bottom of the page.  My all inclusive timeline would take all these and make them interrelated in one list.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here?  Any interest in this at all?

[Alysse the Likely]

I think this is a great idea--I for one have had a hard time finding historical information which can make it hard to to certain entries--places or people especially.  If we know when things happened, then we can draw logical conclusions from them, (i.e. the elves drove humans out of City 1, Area A on this date, therefore they fled to Area B and set up City 2 on a later date--therefore City 2 can only be referenced AFTER that date.  Does this example make sense? 

We desperately need a Santharian timeline, even if only a very rough one for now, so we can make logical decisions about what happened when and how, to whom, and why--and what was the fallout.

It might be hard to have one inclusive timeline--but we might have 2 or 3, say one for wars/invasions, one for settlements/treaties/establishment of trade routes, and  one for royal successions and what not.  That sort of thing.

I'm with you, Altario,  even if it can only be realized in a very basic form at this time.


Alysse

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

I would not mix up the Nybelmar timeline and the Santharian one, for they are quite independent most of the time.
The whole timeline is in the flow, so this might be a difficult task. I hope you know up to what you are, Altario!

(I get to your bison next week, ne child less makes it easier !)

[Artimidor Federkiel]

First of all: The links you provided all link to the mainframe, Altario. You'd need to link to the entries themselves, by first opening an own window to see the link. But yeah, we get the idea. I see a certain need for what you try to convey, and I also have to strongly warn. It needs to be done properly. The given approach in the post has limited use and actually would hurt a proper concept. It is important to know what we're doing and why and not just put something together so that it helps in a certain situation.

We have a history system in place that has a lots of possibilities. The problem is that people need to be aware that we should work on that: add events, provide the necessary background (it often doesn't require that much!), so that we can finally start building e.g. a Santharian timeline. A Forum post or thread that doesn't make it on the site is close to a lost thread in my point of view. Quite frankly, I have seen little to nothing in this regard to support our new History system from member side. This is sad, and hurts any progress we can make efficiently in this respect. So I'm somewhat disillusioned that any major progress can be achieved regarding History, as it would require a team effort. I don't see that given. With the current amount of enthusiasm from member side put into History progress we cannot fulfill the requirements we need to fulfill your wishes, Altario.

That said, we have to look at our options of what we'd need and what could be done.

What I can do for example is to make a new History section and present all events we have in the database on one page. Or on an additional Sarvonian page, a Nybelmar page etc. A mixed page (Nybelmar & Sarvonia) also makes sense at times, if you want to know what happens during a certain periode somewhere else. We can also make special war pages, an inventions page etc., whatever we think helps to view information best. It is possible - it is work however, and once again it is work I'd have to do, as the support is lacking. People are not aware what it takes to establish that system and contribute to overall consistency. This is a natural problem a non-commercial site has. Members basically develop what they enjoy, and if it gets complicated most back off. That's ok, on the other hand people want a consistent site and hope that this somehow "happens". It doesn't. It requires effort. A lot of effort.

We can display information of stuff that is part of the system practically how we see fit. If we add data and allocate it properly to tribes, regions and major contexts (e.g. to a longer war etc.). Operating outside of the system however works against any organizational attempt and cannot be in our interest.

The new history system is in place because it is crucial to centralize history events. The list you provided, Altario, is something you put together from lots of sources, and various of these things are mentioned at different entries, sometimes contradicting each other. So where would such a link go and why if there are several sources? There needs to be one valid definition of an event. This can be moved and altered and what not, but it can only work if the events are defined and maintained in the master table in order to spread it on the whole site.

It would also be possible to reduce "events" to a caption at History tables in order to get a mere development table, that somewhat varies from a complete table, but serves in order to be able to make further progress. But the events can only be maintained at one single place for the whole site. This needs to get into our heads and the events need to be defined (and not linger around somewhere in Forum threads that drown in the Forum depths), otherwise we can pretty much forget about consistency.

If we want to have consistency and proper inclusive timelines we also need to work towards such goals. Every little contribution in this respect can do wonders.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Sorry about how the links go, I am not familiar with how to link to a precice page without going through the compendium.  If you could show me how, I would gladly fix that.

I saw the history section, and thought it was a good idea, but it does not link, which I think would be an advantage.  Can the history section be made to link?  Perhaps this is the way to go, expanded to include more.  Maybe multiple ways to view it would be best e.g. a Sarvonian page, a Nybelmar page, an All inclusive page.

I'm not sure how webmastering is done, and I know that it MUST be a lot of work for you.  Trust me, I have tremendous respect for the work you put into this site.  Is there a way you could make someone who knows this site extremely well a mini-webmaster?  Someone that could help you with this type of project?

Yes, the info I provided is from several sources.  That said, IF there are entries that contradict each other, then does that not speak to a need for this?  If I am about to put up an entry with one set of historic "facts", and there is another entry saying these "facts" are another way, then I will see that if I check the timeline.  Right now, it is hard to research everything, things get missed, even with all the help we get from each other visa vie the comments in the development stages.

I think the upkeep part of it shouldn't be too bad, if we update it with each site update.  We go through every new entry and find all date references and integrate it into the timeline then.  Projects in the works would be considered unofficial (see undiscovered documents, etc) until they are uploaded.

The big job now would be to gather all the dates that are already mentioned.  Like you have stated, the history section is incomplete at the moment.  I would be willing to help with this, for sure.  I can read a few entries per day, and write down all dated events.  If we could get others to volunteer as researchers, we could divide the compendium into sections, and it would go even faster.

In short, Art, I am willing to put work into this if you think it is viable.  However, you are the one who has to do the heavy work, and if you think it is for nothing, then I will respect your decision.  You know I'm just trying to contribute.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Ok, first of all how to do links: I don't know which browser you use, but in general you can open a page in a new window and then look at that address line. In Internet Explorer you can press SHIFT when you click on the link or CTRL (in IE7) to open a new tab. Or you can right-click on a link and then click on "Properties" then you see the URL displayed there. You can mark and copy it from there.

As for the linking: Well, the question is what do we want to link, where, how and why. What makes sense and what doesn't? Depending on that I need to program the possibility of linking and then define links. Some sort of linking in the History tables has been in the back of my head, but I wanted to convert as much history tables first as possible (got pretty far here already) and had hoped that the new organization would inspire developers to structure their stuff a bit and get some events done to fill up the history even more.

As one event that is properly defined with

- date
- caption
- description (in present tense)
- allocations to tribes, regions etc.

will pop up all of a sudden at all entries and history tables it is associated with. It's one maintenance operation that effects multiple entries on the site. If I change something at that event (date, description, whatever) one click on a button will update all pages on the site where this event was mentioned in a history table.

The database at the moment isn't somewhere on a server, but I have it stored locally on my computer. So maintenance by multiple persons isn't easily possible. Maybe that changes at some point, but it isn't priority right now. However, gathering events and preparing them for integration into history tables is very much needed. So here a lot of very constructive work could be done and if you could help out with it, Altario, that would be great. It's still quite a monstrous task to get every date (or most dates and events) into the database, but collecting things while reading through entries would fill up the history tables bit by bit. So marking which entries have already been looked through and prepared properly is surely a great idea.

So let's summarize a bit:

- Getting more info into the tables would be a first important step, and this can be done gradually. It can't be started early enough.

- In doing so we will - quite naturally - have to define further "relevances". This means to define places, tribes, major events (e.g. Sarvonian War II) to which events can be allocated.  Each relevance then generates a table - in the history section and (if available) at an entry, so that it is then possible to look up e.g. what happened all during Sarvonian War II.

This might not always be that easy. For example there might be kings mentioned, and their names and times should be mentioned seperately to be able to integrate them in a Royal Lines table.

- There are additional works necessary development-wise that completely block history preparation. One such example is nomenclature. Concepts on nomenclature of various tribes need to be in place and we're slowly catching up on that in Santharia, having 2 tribes done so far, and Judy is about to finish a third. But these are works that are essential in order to make progress here.

- Related to the definitions of relevances we get further history tables and probably some new sections in the History out of it. For example I've introduced "Royal Lines" lately and "Events" before in order to be able to provide overviews on royal timelines for easy lookup and on the other hand to make sure that events that take longer also can have their timeline.

Joined continental timelines and other things can be added - providing it makes sense in a way to have them.

- How we further improve the History section (links and such) needs to be concepted properly as already mentioned. Also if it makes sense for example to only make "captions only" tables with no detailed description as the linking concept seems to suggest needs to be discussed.

But in general we need a) more data and b) more input from developers of what makes sense for them and how they could imagine it to look like. Then I can check if it is technically feasible to do and realize it to the best of my abilities.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Ok, Art, I'll do what I can to help.

First, thank you for showing me how to link, now I understand.   

Now, if you could give me an example of how you want the info I will gather, that would be great.  Also, where would you like me to post this info?  in this thread?

[Artimidor Federkiel]

I've mentioned the main scheme already above, I'll provide some details:

- date
Provide dates (if applicable from and to dates). If unsure add "ca."

Example:
-713 until -636 b.S.

- caption
A caption that tells the most important things already. Note that this event will show up at various history tables, so the caption must be pretty clear. You cannot assume that the previous entry in a table is there, so that you could simply continue with a caption based on the previous entry.

Example:
The Stratanian Shadow War with the Black Pearl

- description
Write what you've got in present tense.

Example:
In the streets and sewers of Strata a terrible war is fought between the Seven of Thalambath and the Templars of the Black Pearl. It bears the name the "Shadow War" because the war isn't faught openly, only in the dark hours of night, the shadows of the Vagabond's Hideout and the sewers. Murders and small skirmishes are daily events and the city is in chaos for many years. The war results most likely in the end of the Templars and the leaving of the Seven to their hometown, although both facts were never confirmed.

- allocations to tribes, regions etc.
Here you would mention to which table this event should be added.

Example:
- Black Pearl Templars
- Sarvonia, South
- Stratanians
- Strata, City of

P.S. If there is a picture somewhere that could be used to go with the event, please specify as well!

And I guess the History Forum would be ideal to post such events.

[Alysse the Likely]

I would like to work on the history of trade and the development of trade routes in Caelereth but have always felt somewhat paralyzed by the immensity of the task...where do you start?!

Perhaps, like Altario,  I can start with collecting the information about trade routes that is on the site and start to put together some sort of time line for that.  After all, most places entries do have dates and trading information.  I'll see what I can come up with.  A map with the main trade routes listed on it would be helpful, so if I can determine where they would logically go, then that could be put together relatively simply using our existing maps.

Alysse

[Coren FrozenZephyr]

I think there is also a map of Santharian trade routes here (you can also find this on the left-menu)

[Alysse the Likely]

But those come up under "Ancient Kingdoms of Santharia".  Are they still current?(seeing as how Southern Sarvonia, though split into provinces, is now a mostly unified kingdom) And this map doesn't mention overseas trade routes, to Nybelmar, or Northern Sarvonia. 

What I was thinking of was named routes.   That map shows the travel paths but you can't tell where they begin or end, and there are no city names or provincial demarcations. This means a lot of flipping back and forth between maps to figure out the route, say, between Nepris and Lorehaven.

With names, you can refer to, for example, "The Lorehaven-Nepris route"  and then someone else knows exactly what you are talking about.

Alysse

[Bard Judith]

Typically named routes/roads begin to be developed at what I will refer to as the 'Manthrian Level' of involvement.   When we have a closeup map with the various landmarks in largescale, it becomes not only far easier to see the precise way in which a road moves, but WHY it does so.   Names then arise rather naturally ("The Dragon'slake Road", the "Swamp Road" etc.) - though of course one of the most basic ways to name a road is as you've put it - the name of the two places it connects.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

uhm..did I misunderstand (again)?  Do I need to pick a topic?  I was just gonna start with "A" and work my way through, finding anything with dates that aren't included with a histoy table in the entry.  Like I did with my example, except without including the history table entries.

EDIT:  Also, in order to keep up with this in the future, can a rule be set that before any entry is uploaded to the site, if applicable, a history table be provided in accordance to the outline you have described?  I know I'm working on a couple of entries right now that have dates, so to provide a caption and summery would be very little work on top of what I need to do to the entry anyway.  Most bestiary, and herbarium entries would be outside the realm of this rule.  Just a thought.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

No, you don't need to pick a certain topic, Altario, you can also work through the Compendium the way you like it to extract history data.

Setting a rule in my point of view however would establish a new barrier and I would avoid to make that compulsary, though it could be added to serve as a guideline. You know, writing entries and getting them on the site is a process that takes much longer than it did a few years ago. More length, more detail, more comments are required. I don't fully approve with all that from my perspective. Other members don't get to their own stuff anymore and everything takes much longer. This is good in a way in order to maintain a certain quality level, on the other hand we exaggerate it sometimes. Site updates were possible in the first years every week, then it had to be changed to every second week, now we have reached a point where I am forced to updated only every third week - simply because I don't have enough to put up, entries are often not considered finished before they have gone through week long checks. If people must deliver every history detail as well before a submission can be seen as finished, it would get even harder to get anything done.

Trade routes I think aren't really directly related to History as such. Also - as Judy points out - this might get quite difficult if we don't have very detailed maps of more Santharian regions. I'd say that traderoutes are still basically the same as during the time of the Ancient Kingdoms, at least it wasn't intended that these maps are valid for the Ancient Kingdoms only (don't know where this is suggested). It might be possible BTW to display the map with all the labels on it. The current version just shows the routes to have a better overview.

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Last 10 Shouts: Seeker Yesterday at 07:41:35 Are Shabby and Dek the same person in my mind.  Strange. Artimidor Federkiel 20 May 2012, 10:38:19 Ah yes, forgot to point out to Shabakuk that Chapter 5 is ready for testing - will do so now! Deklitch Hardin 18 May 2012, 09:35:51 I am pleased it is going well for you though Seeker ... can't wait to try it and die. Deklitch Hardin 18 May 2012, 09:35:13 No, I didn't Seeker. I think it is Master Anfang who is doing the testing Seeker 18 May 2012, 08:30:42 Dek-   shoals is going very well.  Art is starting on chapter 6. A very important chapter.  Did you test chapter 5? Valan Nonesuch 15 May 2012, 05:41:48 *Valan filches some parchments from around the corners of the pile before sauntering off attempting to look casual and tripping over the hem of his robes.* Bard Judith 14 May 2012, 07:33:29 Waiiiiiit!   (Bard staggers back with a pile of Unfinished Projects so high her arms are trembling)  Let me stuff mine in there before you lock the room!  *looks guiltily around and snatches the Quenyss parchment off the top of the stack* Deklitch Hardin 13 May 2012, 08:12:31 and throw the key into the deepest river we can find, or the midst of one of the volcanoes Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin 13 May 2012, 03:19:29 Then I say we lock the Unfinished Projects room.  If Arti ever gets in there.... big trouble. Deklitch Hardin 13 May 2012, 02:54:30 I'm amazed you can see the Altario projects pile considering it is dwarfed by my unfinished projects. For which I apologise.

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