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Author Topic: Gnomish Vocabulary and Grammar Discussion  (Read 37466 times)
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Gaffin
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« Reply #120 on: 31 December 2008, 07:21:14 »

Ok, my memory is a little off, so if this has already been established then let me know... Basically, instead of using 'zer,' 'zor' and 'ziir' as helping verbs before our mundane verbs (zer verb), we simply conjoin them to our verbs to change their meaning; I think this is what Judy was getting at - and if not, then it simply expands upon her idea. In addition, for zer and zor, adding them before or after the verb in question dictates whether the subject does it to his or herself or whether they are being affected from a third party. For example, let's say that if 'zer' is before the verb, then it is self-afflictual, and if it is after the verb, then it is afflictual. I've made a rootword for 'burn' if there isn't one already (adero), so:

adero - to burn, to set fire to
zeradero - to burn itself, to set fire to itself
aderozer - to burn something, to set fire to something
garzeradero - to burn one's self, to set fire to one's self
aderozergar - to burn someone, to set fire to someone
aderoziir - burnt, to be burned

To avoid confusion, 'zer' exclusively is used for changing the state of something, while 'zor' is reserved mainly for performing actions.

Additional vocabulary:

neladero - to melt (derived from 'nel' for water and 'adero' for burn)
keluu - to freeze
keluuziir - frozen



Does any of that sound good?
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« Reply #121 on: 31 December 2008, 10:12:18 »

I may be getting out of my depth here, but our languages shouldn't be too rigidly consistent because then they become lifeless.  Some of my thoughts on the above:

While I'd really prefer the verb for 'burn' to be 'kinnerim' or 'zinnerim', for various reasons, the verb forms look right to me!  It doesn't matter, IMO, whether they are separate from the main verb or attached to it:   however, for ease of use, 'zer adero'   is easier to translate and read than 'zeradero' as one can see the verb far more clearly.   Also, by Rayne's laws, verbs end with 'im', adjectives with 'in'.   Which would give us 'aderim' for the verb, 'ader' for a root word.

Could I perhaps propose that 'aderim' and its permutations mean 'to desire' / 'to want'?  Which would give us some interesting variants:

aderim - to desire, to want
zeraderim - to want greatly, to have a goal
aderzer - to desire a specific object, concrete or otherwise
garzerader - to be selfish
aderzergar - to desire a person or sentient being
aderziir - to be desired, to be wanted

aderin - desirable, want-worthy
yaderin - undesirable, unwanted

Have I understood the conjugations correctly? 

Then using 'zin' for 'burn', we would have:

zinnerim - to burn, to set fire to
zerzim - to burn itself, to set fire to itself
 (using the simplified or reduce form of the verb , because otherwise words get far too lengthy and convoluted)
zinzer - to burn something, to set fire to something
garzerzin - to burn one's self, to set fire to one's self
zinzergar - to burn someone, to set fire to someone
zinziirin - burnt, to be burned

'melt' should not be 'burn water', because that would be better used for 'boil' or 'steam'.  Not to mention that butter, metal, hearts, and many other things beside water can melt.   It can have its own verb:

'molim' - to melt

I do like 'kelim' for freeze and thus 'kelziirin' for frozen.     

Whew!  Thoughts?  Corrections?  Further ideas?
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« Reply #122 on: 31 December 2008, 11:25:14 »

Judy, I like those much better - they look really cool.

I apologize, I'm a little rusty and as such haven't been able to completely familiarize myself with what we have developed as far as Gnomic goes. Could you point me to Rayne's word list so that I can do more than just blindly come up with words without any kind of cross-referencing or consistency? It'd be greatly appreciated.  :)

Personally, I do not know whether to connect or not, although I do think that connecting the master verbs does look rather neat.

On a side note - I presume that 'y' is used to indicate the negative when used as a prefix? Does this work similarly with words beginning with consonants, or is it exclusive to vowels? If so, is there some other method of indicating negative with words beginning in consonants?

As for 'burn water,' I was thinking more along the lines of 'burn, so that it turns into water.' But I see your point, and 'molim' should work just fine.

Perhaps we should start compiling these new words we have into an organized list. I would recommend not adding them to Rayne's, just so we can distinguish between those that have been neo-gnomicicated ( :P ) and those that haven't.
« Last Edit: 31 December 2008, 11:30:19 by Gaffin » Logged

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« Reply #123 on: 09 January 2009, 10:56:09 »

I know that people are probably busy with real life, and with the Santharian Awards under way they probably aren't too interested in providing input right now, but... I'm just bumping to remind you that this is still under way.
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« Reply #124 on: 10 January 2009, 04:35:46 »

And with Judy being away for surgery and then needing recovery time, you may not hear much from her for a bit, in case you didn't know. 


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« Reply #125 on: 10 January 2009, 09:26:12 »

Give Judy my best, Alysse. I hope she goes okay. heart

And Gaffin, may I suggest we compile all the existing Gnomic words, whether they are from Rayne's list, the Gnomic entry or other entries, and try and sort them out. A few posts ago I posted some of the rules of Gnomic. Please do tell if I missed anything. And combined with the info on verbs we have, I'd suggest we can sort out a lot of the words. So what do you think, does this seem like a good course of action?

Edit: And in case you don't know where Rayne's list is, look here Oh, and here is another of Rayne's lists, on numbers and time.

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« Reply #126 on: 17 January 2009, 13:08:41 »

I've done that compilation already, so just hold off, Mannix!  (though your eagerness is inspiring....)

Once the voting is done and we get back into our regular stride, I'd like to make this a priority.

Addition:

gather, compile - anao (the o can be dropped in conjunctions)
words, text - lekta

This gives us 'Analekta' for the Gnomish Dictionary... :evil
It also gives us some variations in meaning and some new words:

anao - to gather
zeranao - to gather up itself, to draw up or shrink
anazer - to gather something or things together
garzeranao - to collect oneself, to become composed
anazergar - to pick up someone physically or to help them regain composure (a pun in Gnomic as well as Tharian - 'to pick me up'!)
anaziir - gathered, to be gathered or collected
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« Reply #127 on: 21 January 2009, 04:18:51 »

I'm a little confused by your above post. Have we decided to do away with the 'im' and 'in' prefixes for verbs and adjectives?

A slight addition of my own:

reguzi (n)
- authority
(After Rome's 'rex', meaning 'king.')

In Gnomic, reguzi is often used in titles of prominence. For example, Archalchemist (this is a pseudo-name): alkemizt reguzi



reguzergar - to give authority to someone
garzereguz - to make a resolution, to make an important personal choice; to be determined
reguzer - to appoint; to make official
zereguz - to be given prominence or authority through luck or inheritance

garzoreguz - to be obsessed or consumed with someone (a sentient being)
reguzorgar - to practice authority; to rule over someone
zoreguz - to be ruled by something; to be obsessed with or consumed by something
reguzor - to practice or show authority (unspecific)

garziireguz - to be in control of one's self; to have self-discipline
reguziir - authoritative; to be in control of something (an object or situation, for example)
reguzigar (irregular) - to be in control of someone

I hope I haven't made any mistakes, but sometimes this system can become quite an exercise for the mind.

EDIT: For some of those 'zor' verbs, the definitions seem kind of questionable. If I could get a second opinion on them that'd be great.

-------------------------------------------------

Ok, I think that it's time to decide our next course of action once everybody gets back into the development routine. I would recommend that we solidify our sentence structure first of all, and decide what rules to keep from old Gnomish and which to change. I'm rather mortified at the idea of having to conjugate my verbs after already figuring out the proper 'form' to use for a specific idea, so perhaps we can do away with that or modify it in some way to be more simple.

Basically, I think it would make this a much easier endeavour if we iron out the basics so that we can start beefing up our vocabulary without any real trouble.

Once you get time, feel free to toss in some of your own ideas and discuss what to do with Rayne's old syntax.

Just a quick thought - I was thinking having our language as Subject Object Verb (SOV) would be kind of neat. For example:

Brog brogur reguzergar

Literally translated, meaning "he gives me authority."

Another example:

Brogur gremil garzoreguz

Translates rougly into, "I obsess over you."
« Last Edit: 21 January 2009, 08:50:28 by Gaffin » Logged

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« Reply #128 on: 21 January 2009, 09:20:34 »

I agree completely!   If the list above is wrong, my fault - I find it too confusing to conjugate, but I gave it a try.... please feel free to start from the base verb and redraft the variations...    Note the flexiblity of the meanings, from literal to metaphorical/poetic, which I think works well.    Perhaps we could indeed take a step back and try again to establish the grammar rules, but with a bit more simplicity?

  'Reguzi' is great, by the way.

 I also like SOV, which is the way Korean does it - verb at the end of the sentence.    However, I'm not sure that S and O are adequately distinguished.... particularly in passive and active constructions.  How do you say the difference between:

he gives me authority 
He has been given (by me) authority

or

I give him authority
I have been given (by him) authority

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« Reply #129 on: 21 January 2009, 11:04:56 »

Add a single syllable after the verb, like: reguzergar aevin - I am given

Judy, "has been given" is the past perfect passive tense, not just plain passive, FYI. I think you should use a single, unchanging word to denote a passive verb, nothing else. That way it will stay simple.

You would need to change the form of the verb to denote past, future, perfect, and so on and on and on...

But I take it you guys are looking for simpleness, so how about certain vowels standing for certain tenses? It would just mean changing a letter in the construction of the verb. The last vowel of the verb would denote tense.

O or E - present  e.g. reguzer - I appoint
I (possibly II ) - imperfect (aka past) e.g. reguzir or reguziir - I was appointing
U - future e.g. reguzur - I will appoint
A - perfect e.g. reguzar - I appointed
AI - past perfect e.g. reguzair - I had appointed
AU - future perfect e.g. reguzaur - I will have appointed

For the passive version of all these tenses, simply add aevin:
reguzer aevin - I am appointed
reguzir aevin - I was being appointed
etc.

For the imperative (a command), you could use a special ending:
reguzertiir - (you) appoint     ("tiir" being the ending there)

Infinitives could be denoted by "taer": reguzertaer - to appoint, reguzertaer aevin - to be appointed

A participle could be "x*n", the * representing the appropiate tense letter.
reguzerxon - appointing (present participle)
reguzerxun - about to appoint (future participle)
reguzerxan aevin - having been appointed (perfect passive participle)

A gerund could be made by simply adding "vii": reguzervii - of appointing

These are just suggestions, of course, you could change the letters/endings to fit the current gnomic that we have. If these ideas won't work, just tell me, but what do you guys think of them?
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« Reply #130 on: 21 January 2009, 14:34:49 »

I quote Rayne's initial concept from the site entry again:

"  Gnomes have a very simplistic language structure despite their advancement in technology. They have developed a language that meets their need for information quick and easy, easy to transfer and tell. The words they use are, like elvish (Styrásh), very concrete.  Though gnomes do have a sense of beauty and ugliness, such opinion-based words are of little use to a people who want to describe things accurately with concrete detail. The language is also fairly loose. Things can be switched and turned around, but as long as the proper particles are put in where they’re supposed to be, there is no trouble."

So this 'particle-based' or prefix/suffix style system seems to match up nicely with her original concept.   She also seems to indicate that a strict SOV or SVO order is not necessary.

Anyhow, it looks lovely to me - but (grammar-deficient here) what happens with Gaffin's concept:

"Basically, instead of using 'zer,' 'zor' and 'ziir' as helping verbs before our mundane verbs (zer verb), we simply conjoin them to our verbs to change their meaning"...is this a variation/spinoff of that suggestion? Or are we altering it to use a variety of suffixes rather than only three prefixes as 'helping' and conjugating the basic verb?

Can we PLEASE not include subject/gender into the verb, again for the sake of simplicity and logic?  I don't want to have to run through an entire Latinate style list 'amo amas amat' (I love, you love, he loves) etc.  OR as in English, change the endings to show agreement  (love/loves).   

Just simply:    Judy reguzer aevin   (Judy is appointed)   Morden tir Gaffin reguzer aevin  (Morden and Gaffin are appointed)

And can we still use 'y' as a prefix to denote the negative of all/any of these? 

 ie:  Mina yreguzar aevin = Mina was not appointed

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« Reply #131 on: 21 January 2009, 16:52:09 »

I just had an idea that popped into my head when Gaffin mentioned not wanting to conjugate verbs. I am very much of the same opinion, it just makes the language more difficult. Perhaps Gnomic could have no tenses whatsoever. I know that is a rather odd idea, but I think there are a few languages that lack tenses. So maybe it could work. I think Indonesian is one of those languages, so maybe I'll look into how they get by without tenses to see if it makes the language simpler. All of my friends who study Indo say it definitely makes it easy. I'll look into it if you guys think it could work for our little guys. I know from French though, I absolutely hate having to learn numerous tenses. So what do you guys think, could it work? Oh and sorry if this does clash with something. A bit of this language stuff is just comepletely over may head. :P But I think this may also fit in with Rayne's original concept. It allows the language to be less rigid, if I am correct. But I'd have to check.

Edit: A quick glance at wiki told me having no tense is indeed meant to be easier. All you do is add a time signal in the sentence. Now whether you guys think that is actually easier than the above idea is open for debate. The above construction of tenses is rather simple so maybe there isn't much need for my idea. Anyways, I'll give you guys some examples:

Brogur orkel orkelim
I eat food.

Brogur orkel maguk orkelim
I ate or have eaten food. (I got maguk, from guk, meaning time, so I'll follow that for my examples. It was just the first thing that came to my head, so it can be changed. And also, I imagine maguk could also mean something like past or already.)

Brogur orkel gukil orkelim
I will eat food. (Gukil, could also mean future, maybe.)

Brogur orkel aguk orkelim
I am eating food. (And again, aguk could mean something else, such as present, now or middle.)

Brogur orkel mapir orkelim
I ate food yesterday. (This is just an idea, if you want to specify the time of the action, you can add that in instead of the time signal, as it is a signal itself. So mapir could mean yesterday.)

I know that probably doesn't cover all of the tenses, such as the imperative, but I'm in a bit of a rush. And the placement of the time signals can be changed, I just put them before the verb. This concept would need some work though, as this has only taken me a few minutes. Hopefully a few words of what I have said is understandable. Feel free to take or leave this idea, the above one is also good and I'm more than happy to use it. This is just something that popped into my head. :)

Edit II: Another idea I had. Since we are trying to stick as close to Rayne's original concept, and she said the language is fairly loose, allowing switching. Perhaps this switching of the sentence structure could be used to say something. Maybe it is used to emphasise what is in the sentence. I'd say it would probably be more of an oral thing to do. And funnly enough, this is supposedly what happens in Latin and Japanese. So I'm guessing that is why Rayne added that, including the bit about the proper particles always being in the right place. Maybe that need not be for Gnomic. Maybe they have a different way of reorganising the sentence. I'm just putting my ideas out there. grin

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« Reply #132 on: 21 January 2009, 23:05:20 »

Dwarven works exactly like that! 

 You put Ave or Ver before the sentence as a time marker and then the rest of the sentence is standard.  Also, no agreement is necessary.   Transliterated, a ThergerimTaal sentence would read like this:    "Past, Judy eat food yesterday. "  or "Future, Mannix make list of verb tenses."

I have NO difficulty with that concept, unless you think it's too close to ThergerimTaal to use.  We could always, as you suggest, move the time marker to just before the verb or just after it (thus effectively conjugating it), which would change the look adequately but simply, with no need for helper verbs, agreement, etc... In which case keeping the time markers one syllable would be preferable, also making them distinctively gnomic with easily recognized characteristic letters - how about:

 the simple verb with the default 'im' for present tense verbs - Brogra orkel orkelim = I eat food
 'vii' for present tense continuous (gerund, or 'ing) - Brogra orkel orkelimvii = I am eating food
 'xi' for simple past - Brogra orkel orkelimxi (mapir)  - I ate food (yesterday)
 'xik' for conditional past - Brogra orkel orkelimxik - I would have eaten food / if I had eaten food
 'za' for future - Brogra orkel orkelimza (gukil) = I will eat food (tomorrow)
 'zak' for conditional future - Brogra orkel orkelimzak (gukil) = I will have eaten food (by tomorrow)

Am I missing any tenses we should have?  This is just off the top of my sinus-congested head before bedtime, so forgive errata!

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« Reply #133 on: 21 January 2009, 23:42:39 »

My suggestion about the vowels had nothing to do with subject/gender distinctions, but tense. I meant to use vowels the same way you are suggest we a prefix or suffix to denote the time of the sentence, like in Thergerim. So any verb with a final vowel of O or E would be present, without worrying about whether you're talking about first, second, or third person. I meant it merely as a simple time marker, but if a prefix or suffix works better for you guys, OK.

I just thought that glancing at the end of a verb to see its last vowel would be a simple way to tell the time of the sentence.

As to the order, how about we make it like New Testament Greek? In that language, any order (SVO, SOV, VOS, VSO, OSV, OVS, ......) can be used. In that format, it was understood that the very first word in each sentence was the most important, and constituted the main idea of what was being said.

I think you got the most important tenses, you just need past tense continuous (I was eating). This will seem nit-picky, but I'm a stickler for tenses. "I will have eaten" is the future perfect, not conditional. The "conditional" has a proper name, it used in NT Greek, but not Latin, though my memory is fuzzy on that tense. I didn't use it often. But "would/if" is a special tense that should NOT be included with the other tenses. It needs a special rule for itself, because it is a verily easily confusing tense. So keep it away from the other tenses, or we'll get confused easily.

You do need perfect tenses, though. "I had eaten", "I will have eaten", are the past and future perfect, respectively. The simple past is also known as the perfect, technically. So we need the other two perfect tenses. Just keep the "conditional" (I will look up the proper name soon) tense very separate.

Also, if we adopt Judy's endings for time markers, we should make sure that those spellings are NOT used in any other word. That way, someone reading Gnomic can immediately and easily find the verb, which is the key to the sentence.

I hope you guys don't mind my nit-picky ideas about tenses and such, but I have studied Latin and NT Greek for quite a while. So after years of being picked on about these things myself, I may be a bit picky towards you guys. My apologies if my ideas are being too exact or complicated or picky.

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« Reply #134 on: 22 January 2009, 03:41:50 »

Ok: reguzi is the noun "authority"
      reguzim is the rootword for the different verbs, but conjugates exactly as I had previously stated.

That looks like it will work, Judy. My only qualm is that with the more complex verbs, like 'reguzergar.'

Example: Brogur brog reguzergarxi, I appointed him.

It might make verbs a little hard to read, but I can probably get the hang of it.
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