Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

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[Mina]

MASTER PLAN FOR THE SANTHARIAN PROVINCE OF XARAMON

Master Plan Goal Definitions

• Place and Geography
• Resources and Essentials
• Politics
• People and Tribes
• History
• Recent Situation

How should Master Plans look like?
Each given section should contain a list of tasks that can be done to fulfill part of the overall goal - be it to suggest entry proposals, collecting data, drawing a rough map to illustrate something so that other works can use that as basis etc. Important is that the results of such a goal should be able to make it to the site once that goal is finished - this is not always directly possible, but has to be prime directive. As various things drown in the gigantic monstrous gorge also known as the "Forum Depths" in Santharian jargon, it has to be ensured that this monster isn't fed with our goals.

Goals can be roughly defined by simply mentioning the entry that should be made, or in more detail by adding in a few lines in what direction something should be developed. Important is not so much the precise definition of the goal (a rough sketch on a Places entry could already be found e.g. in the Places Forum), key is the inspiration these goals produce, and thus eventually the results.

[Mina]

Places and Geography

Places and Geography comprises everything that has to do with major settlements of people or settlements of importance for people or geographical occurences worth mentioning that has an influence on the people living there - or not living there.

Here's the Master Plan for places within Xaramon.  The idea was to provide some general structure around which the province could be developed.  The places have been grouped according to region, and some relevant information has been provided.  Each of them should ideally get an entry eventually, but for now, priority should be given to the more important places, eg. Caelum.  Also, many of the places are currently lacking names, so you are most welcome to suggest some.  

The map

Some general notes:
1. Xaramon is no more magical than the other provinces, whatever reputation it might have ("province of magicians" and stuff like that).  Only Ximax is magical to any extent, and even then probably not as much as people think.  

2. The map does not show all the settlements found in the province, just in general the more notable ones.  Usually, except for places not very suitable for permanent settlement (eg. steppes and mountains, which happens to make up a large portion of the province), one should find at least a village every couple dozen strals or so.  So, you can make something up if you want, though there are already a few 'placeholder' locations for you to choose from; just make sure they are in a sensible location, or have a good justification if they aren't.  Just keep in mind that priority should be given to more important places.  

3. Likewise, there are more forests than are shown on the map.  The ones on the map are all very notable in some way; there would be other, less important forests throughout the parts of the province with suitable conditions for a forest to grow in.  

4. Much of the province used to be Kyranian territory, but by the time Kyrania joined Tharania, most were effectively Kyranian in name only, having been taken over by Centoraurian/Helcrani nobles.  Kyranian influence would probably have deteriorated even further after the Kyranians overthrew their king and joined Tharania, so that nowadays the province would largely be culturally Centoraurian.  (see here)

5. Officially, Xaramon is ruled by a Thane.  However, unlike the other provinces, the position of the Thane of Xaramon is rotated amongst the dukes rather than being kept in a certain family.  So the power that comes with it is more or less spread amongst them.  Aside from this, there is also the government of Ximax, which probably has some amount of unofficial influence by virtue of Ximax being the capital.  

Duchy of Gilden

• A fairly typical duchy, by Santharian standards (but less so when compared with the other duchies in Xaramon)
• The heart of the former Kyranian kingdom, except for the eastern and southern portions, which were Eyelian (at least at 482 b.S.)

• Caelum:
  
  • A very large city (population about 100,000) located at the mouth of the Dorashi river
  • Known as El'Dorash very, very long ago (the Dorashi river apparently got its name from it; see here)
  • Was the capital of Kyrania
  • Was and still is an important trading city, probably largely due to its location at the mouth of the Dorashi River
  • Also houses the biggest temple of Eyasha (see here), making it possibly quite important in religion as well

• Naios:
  
  • Founded as a fortified town on a hill near the Wind Bay between 933 and 806 b.S. by Aprag Naios Dereswungen, and possibly named after him as well (see here)
  • Has since grown into a city

• Blue City 2:
  
  • Probably has a fairly important naval base of some sort; that position looks relatively strategic
  • Needs a name, obviously

• Blue Cities 1, 3, and 4:
  
  • A few more cities located along the coast, no plans beyond that for now
  • Need names too

Aqua

• Needs a name
• A small duchy, a fairly large portion of which is taken up by the Shivering Wood
• Part of Kyrania at 482 b.S. (see here), but probably under significant Centoraurian influence by then

• Pelaburg:
  
  • A city located where the unnamed river joins the Dorashi River

• Neudorfling:
  
  • A town located somewhere near the edges of the Steppe of Kruswik

• Marbellou:
  
  • A town located by the coast

• Ribellou:
  
  • Another town located by the coast

• Shivering Wood:
  
  • Entry exists, but needs to be revised
  • A huge forest that takes up a large portion of the duchy
  • Was once inhabited by a dark elven tribe called the Tsváen’mol’khár (who might have been the ones who laid siege to Ximax from 777-773 b.S.), but they are long gone

• Unnamed Green-Aqua river:
  
  • One of the larger tributaries of the Dorashi River, flowing southeast from the Anghorth Alsae mountains into the Dorashi River
  • Starts out as three separate rivers in Green, but merge into one in the Shivering Wood
  • Need names

Green

• Needs a name
• Not actually a duchy, but a group of smaller fiefs (baronies, perhaps)
• Linked Ximaxian territories to the rest of Centorauria (and also controls access to Ximax)
• Consequently has a chain of forts protecting it
• Historically mostly under Centoraurian control, though other powers probably sought to exert control over it too
• Probably intentionally (in modern times) kept fragmented rather than united under a duke, to keep it from threatening Ximax

• Aleximorton, Centaurdom, Crataion, Shiver Fort, Celevarn, and Oromarta:
  
  • Towns that grew around the forts mentioned above

• Alsgammon:
  
  • A town located at the coast, perhaps built around a coastal fort

• Unnamed Green-Aqua river:
  
  • One of the larger tributaries of the Dorashi River, flowing southeast from the Anghorth Alsae mountains into the Dorashi River
  • Starts out as three separate rivers in Green, but merge into one in the Shivering Wood
  • Need names

Duchy of Hypheria

• A very tiny duchy, consisting only of Horth and some surrounding lands (which should have villages and maybe even some towns, but are probably not very notable)
  
• Originally part of the Centoraurian kingdom, but became an independent city-state based around Horth when Centorauria became fragmented around 617 b.S. (see here)
• Remained independent mainly due to being good at diplomacy and maintaining good relations with whoever is the strongest at the time
• Rejoined Centorauria when the kingdom was reunified around 575 b.S.
• Probably gained its duchy status around this time too

• Horth:
  
  • Entry exists, but needs to be revised
  • No longer a small town, but a small city at least, and has been so for quite a long time
  • One of the main trade routes in Xaramon passes through it, so it might actually be somewhat larger than 'small'
  • For now, the only really notable urban area in Hypheria

Bright Red

• Needs a name
• Another of the Centoraurian territories that broke off around 617 b.S. and rejoined the kingdom around 575 b.S.

• Rumeflor:
  
  • A city by the Cyon Sola Bay; no plans for it at the moment

• Chaun and Kerrine:
  
  • Mentioned in the entry on Dalmac Brandivere
  • Might not actually need entries, unless they are somehow notable in other ways

Magenta

• Needs a name
• Consists largely of the northern portions of the Steppe of Kruswik, which is probably not very heavily populated
• Probably still has a significant population (comparable to that of one of the smaller duchies), mostly located at the wetter areas near shores of the Aerelian Lakes

• Dysgammon:
  
  • Large city (population around 40,000) located by the Aerelian Lakes
  • Name translates as 'Westbury', meaning 'Fort of the West'

• Corgammon:
  
  • Large city (population around 25,000-30,000) located by the Aerelian Lakes
  • Might have originally been Kyranian, and was certainly under Kyranian control at 482 b.S. (see here)
    

Yellow

• Needs a name
• Covers the central portion of the Steppe of Kruswik, including one of the main areas where the Kyranians originally settled (see here)
• Kyranian civilization eventually became centered around the southwest (mostly the Blue parts), but a few important places remain
• Quite big, but not very heavily populated, so it is ruled without the assistance of gravens

• Cratinth:
  
  • A city that grew around the palace built by Caldar Eywing around 963 b.S., near a sacred forest
  • The place most pilgrims visiting the forest stay at

• Important Arwood:
  
  • Needs a name!
  • The sacred forest mentioned above (arwoods are sacred forests that play a role similar to that of temples for worshippers of Arvins, who do not have temples; see here)
  • In 963 b.S., after receiving a prophecy from Arvins and praying to him for 12 days, Caldar Eywing sees and, interpreting it as a sign, shoots a white stag in the forest  
  • After bringing the stag back to an altar, he receives yet another prophecy, and later declares the forest sacred and builds his palace on a hill next to it (see here)

• Ruins of Sheyaur Castle:
  
  • A great fortress built around 11640 b.S. at the top of the Ilian Plateau by Cyroan Thromgolin, a great tactician and one of the early Kyranian leaders
  • Was in ruins by 963 b.S. (see here)

• Yellow City 1:
  
  • Needs a name too
  • Another of the cities located along the Dorashi river, so it probably sees a fair amount of trade

• Ilian Plateau:
  
  • Possibly an extension of the Lower Fores
  • Settled around 11640 b.S. and cleared of all bushes and trees (see here), which might or might not have since grown back
  • Probably no longer very heavily populated, if at all

Dark Red

• Needs a name
• Even bigger than Yellow, but also not very heavily populated, and likewise ruled without any help from gravens

• Dorasheim:
  
  • A city located by the Dorashi River

• Nerterpel:
  
  • Name translates as 'Dwarvenaxe'
  • Controls a relatively important trade route (leading to Elsreth, and perhaps New Santhala as well)
  • Probably relatively heavily fortified due to its location

• Curtoron:
  
  • A town located by the river

• Idyllia:
  
  • Another town located by the river

• Lower Fores:
  

• Unnamed Red river:
  
  • One of the larger tributaties of the Dorashi river, flowing eastwards from the Lower Fores into the Dorashi river
  • Name(s) needed

Vontron Stý'cál

• The territory of the Sanhoirhim Elves, which consists mostly of Vontron Forest
• Entry exists for Vontron Forest, but could perhaps use a bit of fleshing out
• Consider developing some places within the forest

Cha'domm

• The territory directly governed by Ximax, basically the Cha'domm Peninsula minus the parts claimed by the Zirghurim (though Ximax probably does not have much control over the rest of the mountains either, not that there's much there for them to control)
• Ximax is probably a direct vassal of the Thane (cf. the Holy Roman Empire's Free Imperial Cities), making Cha'domm about equivalent to a duchy in status, more or less, though not formally one. 
• Not open for development yet

Zirghurim Territories

• Unlike other Dwarven tribes, the Zirghurim claim not only the underground areas, but the surface as well

Others

• These are things that don't fit very well into the above categories, but are still relevant to Xaramon

• Dorashi River:
  
  • Big river that flows through the central portion of Xaramon, more or less bisecting the Steppe of Kruswik
  • Probably named after Caelum, then known as El'Dorash (see here)
  • Very important for trade in the province
  • Most of the population of the steppe duchies (Yellow, and to a smaller extent, Red) would be located along this river

• Aerelian Lakes:
  
  • recently updated

• Cyon Sola Bay, Bay of the Sky, and Wind Bay:
  
  • Large bays to the east of Xaramon
  • Should probably be done as separate entries

• Steppe of Kruswik:
  
  • Huge steppe that covers a large portion of the province
  • Steppes are supposed to be fairly dry (not enough water to support trees), so the area probably does not receive much rainfall
  • Which means it's probably not very good for agriculture, at least not without pretty good irrigation

• Zirkumire Mountains:
  
  • Collective term for a group of four mountain ranges: the Anghorth Alsae range, the Wanderer Mountains, the Westron Hills, and the Magic Sickle range
  • The Anghorth Alsae are in Green, the other ranges are part of Cha'domm
  • May be done as a single entry or separately; entry already exists for the Zirkumire mountains collectively, and Anghorth Alsae range, but both need to be revised
  • The Wanderers are mostly volcanic
  • The Westron Hills are really mountains, despite the name; they are just quite short, especially when compared to the Wanderer and Magic Sickle ranges

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[Mina]

Resources and Essentials

With "Resources and Essentials" we mean all kind of stuff that is needed for a region, which helps to also define it. Resources can be minerals, but also beasts and plants, rivers, Essentials can be inventions made in that region, thus gear and tools, magical artifacts or books which are of the uttermost importance for the area and the people living there.

[...]

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[Mina]

Politics

The governmental structure of Xaramon roughly follows what is laid out in the Ranks and Titles entry.  However, there are some important differences.  

The Thane and the Dukes:
Officially, Xaramon is ruled by a Thane.  However, it is not a hereditary position.  Instead, every few years (actual time to be decided), the Dukes elect one of themselves to become the Thane.  Thus, in practice, the province is collectively ruled by the Dukes, since a Thane would risk losing their position at the next election of they go against the wishes of too many of the Dukes.  It also means that the Dukes have a relatively great amount of autonomy.   

The Thane usually lives in the provincial capital, Ximax, and the other Dukes also maintain residences there, although they don't necessarily spend much time there.  The Dukes, or their representatives, gather in Ximax at regular intervals (actual time to be decided) to discuss provincial issues with the Thane. 

The situation likely came about because, when the Santharian hierarchy was implemented in Xaramon, there was no noble in the province who clearly outranked the others and would thus be the obvious choice for becoming the Thane.  The Anactar/King of Centorauria had become part of the political system in Vardynn (as far as I can tell), and the former royal family of Kyrania was overthrown when Kyrania joined Tharania (482 b.S.) and might no longer exist at this point (likely some time after 1480 a.S.), and in any case wasn't well-liked.  The electoral system (perhaps inspired by how the Santhrans were chosen?) solves that problem.  Ximax would then be the natural choice for the provincial capital, since it was not part of any Duke's territory, and thus was a sort of 'neutral territory'.      

Other Races:
The three main nonhuman tribes in Xaramon are the Sanhorrhim Elves, the Thrumgolz Dwarves, and the Zirghurim Dwarves.  The Thrumgolz occupy the Lower Fores, but do not officially claim any surface territory.  The Sanhorrhim occupy the Vontron forest, while the Zirghurim occupy several of the Zirkumire mountains.  They are not technically subjects of the Thane, but do sometimes take part in discussions regarding provincial issues, especially those that might affect them.  

Ximax:
Ximax is the provincial capital, and also controls most of the Cha'domm peninsula.  It is considered a direct vassal of the Thane (cf. the Holy Roman Empire's Free Imperial Cities).  Given the political structure of Xaramon, this gives it almost as much autonomy as the Duchies, as long as the Dukes are not sufficiently united about anything that would reduce or end this autonomy. 

Ximax was historically quite autonomous, and had several periods of independence, the latest ending only in 1480 a.S. and lasting over 600 years.  It is therefore quite concerned with preserving its present autonomy and constantly keeps an eye on what the Dukes are doing, and does what it can to keep the Dukes disunited.  It probably had a hand in the creation of the present political structure. 

Officially, Ximax doesn't have any say in the provincial government; it just happens to be where the government is located.  However, due to this, and because it provides a lot of the bureaucracy, it does have some unofficial influence over the government.  Mostly, it just uses this influence to help preserve its autonomy and well-being, and isn't otherwise that interested in affecting what goes on in the rest of the province. 

That area marked in green that doesn't have a name yet:
This is a group of baronies which are direct vassals of the Thane.  Each is centered around a fort, and together they were originally meant to guard the path linking Ximax to Horth, and from there to the rest of Centorauria, and continue to perform a similar role today.  Ximaxian influence probably has something to do with them not being put under the control of a single Duke or Graven.  

A note on titles:
Most of the nobility are Centoraurian in origin, though there are some Kyranian ones too, especially in Gilden.  In addition to the Santharian titles, they might also have some traditional tribal titles, eg. 'Ptoliarch' for Centoraurian Dukes. 

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[Mina]

People and Tribes

The People section contains all kinds of things related to people in this region, be it something related to the tribe as a whole or single celebrities, historical key characters etc.

[...]

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[Mina]

History

History comprises all kinds of major events that lead to what we have in the region now, that provide background. Background can mean sketching timelines (as flexible as they still might be at first) for tribe development, defining timespans of regents, but providing background can also mean writing detailed entries on key events. Both, the rough timelines and elaboration of the key events are of the uttermost importance.

[...]

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[Mina]

Recent Situation

In this section we should try to accumulate all kinds of entries that help to contribute to what this region represents today. This section should help so that one can easily look up territory borders, division of the land in duchies, fiefs etc., important contemporary people and recent developments worth of note like inventions, introductions of laws, recently fought wars or politicial disputes - you get the picture.

[...]

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[Mina]

Please discuss matters concerning the Xaramon Master Plan in this thread. 

[Ringan]

Hi Mina,

I am loving what you have done.  I like the flavours and style, attention to detail, the breath of life if you will.

I am just going to comment briefly here on population, and that only in a rough way (a more exact study is needed to do this right).

First, I think there is an inconsistency in legends on the map.  Based on the accuracy of the Manthria map (this is the arbiter of all legends), the distance between Cioso and Marcogg is the same as that between Ximax and Horth, about 600 strals.  If I did my calculations right on your map, it is 450 strals.  Anyhow, these sorts of numbers need to be made accurate, because the difference becomes pretty significant working out populations.

The total area of the entire province is about 1,000,000 square strals (based on the standards noted above).

Assuming most of this land is not agrarian, in fact, it is not even rich hunting lands (e.g., the steps) it would at best qualify as what I called Very Low Yield land supporting about 1 person (or dwarf or orc or whatever) per square stral.  In addition, we can ask how much land where is of a higher status, the Low Yield kind.  Looking at your map, I am throwing darts in the dark, but I would guess 1/4, and most of it on the peninsula, south coast and lake region (in roughly equal propoprtions).  At 6 persons / stral square, we get another 1.25 million in habitants (noting that we already counted the same land as Very Low Yield, so we are adding 5 persons /sq.s.).
To this we can add some proper mixed agrarian land, including around Ximex, the lake region again and parts of the southern coast.  How much of its is really developed is an important part of the equation, but let us suppose 10% of the Low Yield land is developed, or in other words 10% of 1/4 = 2.5%.  To this, we might find another .5% of land in the Very Low Yield regions for a subtotal of 3% of 1000000sq.s. = 30,000sq.s. which supports 30 persons per sq.s., but which we count as 24 since we already counted 6, so upwards 7.2 millions.  Actually, this probably is about right given the likely HIGHLY fertile regions of the south coast (making the city of Cael a good candidate for mega city).  If you want to push it higher, there is room - this is a province between 7 and 8 times the size of England or more than 50% larger than France.  Anyhow, this quick and dirty calculation finds about 1+1.25+7.2 millions or call it 9.5 millions, better, let's call it 10 million!  France may have had as many as 20 million in the 14th century prior to the plagues, so this would be low, but then France was much richer than Xaramon, which reminds one a little on eastern Russia with those huge steps.  Still, there is room to increase the population a few more million at the top end if you want it big.  You could also half the agrarian land and force it to have a population of 5,000,000, and this might work a little better given your cities listed.  In any case, see the calcualtions below assuming 10,000,000 pop.

If we go with roughtly 10,000,000, and we work with somewhat ahistoric 67% are agrarian and able to support the other 33%, this leaves you with a whopping 3,3 million urbanites in the towns and cities.  Half will populate the large village/small town category between 500 and 2500 or so persons. A quarter will take care of the rest of the towns to 8000 pop or so.  The last quarter then fills the cities.  So, in this (again quick and dirty on a napkin kind of calculation), we have:

50% x 3.3mil./1500 = 11,000 market village/towns with average 1500 persons (yep! A lot to fit on the map!!)

25% x 3.3mil./5000 = 167 towns avg. pop. 5000 (yep, still a really large number to fit on the map!!)

25% x 3.3mil. = 833,000 for the cities greater than 8000.  With the first 130,000 for Cael, that leaves 700,000.  If the cities average 35,000, this means there should be another 20 full fledged cities.  Yes! Even this is a lot to fit on the map, but this can probably be done.  Anyhow, it is more than you have at the moment, but here is a rough guide to get the numbers about right:

Not counting Cael, assume 2/3 of the 20 (=14) are less than 35,000 but of course greater than 8,000.  Then the other 6 large cities, if they increase gradually at a bit more than 35,000 towards a biggest one that is less than 65,000, the numbers should work out.

So.... does that help?  Please do not hesitate to ask if I you would like to do something more exact.  Also, getting this system to work in Manthria has proven very difficult, not least because there is such a paucity of the first category of large village/small towns to accomdate the relatively small cities there.  Also, I have not checked my work super carefully here...

[Bard Judith]

'more exact'?  What are you, channeling Mr. Spock here?   Honestly, down to one decimal place is quite an acceptable level of accuracy, considering Santharia has yet to invent the decimal...  

  Generally we round things off (try not to faint) and say things like "He's about two and a half fores tall" (fores being the length of one's forearm) or "I'll take a half-heb of that fresh butter, please..." and hope the shopkeeper will give good measure.   

As regards population, I think what most of us have preci'ed from your scholarly calculations (and for which kudos, in all sincerity) is that we don't have enough villages.  Need more people!  Need more places!   This will make Artimidor happy, as his bete-blanche is Place entries, and I must say I'm rather fond of them myself.    The issue here is that the Compendium is an ever-growing, changing thing, and what makes it in are mostly things of note - places and beasts and foodstuffs that are worthy of recording.   

BRAINSTORM/SUGGESTION:   Mini-entry proposal! 

In order to accommodate this new concept, we would have to change our requirements for entries, or at the very least be happy with one-line or one-paragraph descriptions of towns - as you see happening on the largescale Manthrian map.   Something like this?  :

"Fourstrals is a small village of about twenty-five families, in the middle of the main sheep district.  Its primary products are washed, unspun wool, cured mutton, and undyed yarn.  It trades mostly with Whutt, Hittlesford,  Deaf Yow, and the other small towns around it, though markets are held seasonally for the travelling merchants with whom they have struck bargains for so many bales.  They are, like most of their ilk, self-sufficient for basic foodstuffs, tending their own community gardens, but are happy to purchase the luxuries of life from peddlars or merchant caravans every three or four months.  Nothing of note has ever happened historically in Fourstrals.  The only remotely well-known figure to ever have been born in Fourstrals was the Yeoman Quartermaster of Duke XXX's household, a skilled fighting man who effectively put down the street rebellion in Marcogg in 1539.   Fourstrals is believed to have been in existence since about three centuries before Santhros."


Such mini-entries would serve two purposes: they would fill in the map and give us population figures that are more to scale, but they would also help set up and fill in the networks of trade and finance that are still sorely under-developed.  Without a great deal of effort, people could enjoy creating these small communities, making them interesting but not necessarily hugely significant historically or politically.

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

HMM, yes, no, I mean, it is the same as with the Manthrian little places and descriptions. The one who wants to develop the villages has to create then a sheep producing community, when he would like to do something different. The location of the place appeals to him, the name as well, but wool-production? It will be referred to already in other entries. Why not just set names and villages on any new map Art creates like on the Manthrian map? With only  important ones "defined"

Well, but maybe that is just my always latent wish to have still all options open.

[Bard Judith]

No!  No, NOT the same as the small descriptions on the Manthrian map, which are seen as 'placeholders' to be developed at a later time.   That's exactly what I don't want to have happen.

My point here, Talia, is that there will be no such person as someone who 'wants to develop the villages' but 'has to create' in a certain way.    Anyone who's interested is, as always, free to create a village from scratch, as whatever he or she wants it to be, within reason  - but such villages are not being created, partly because of the complexity and importance placed upon 'place entries', and because small villages aren't important enough to have that much information created about them.

My proposal is to create a second template for place development: a 'brief' or 'mini-template' for small communities. 

This would mean that developers can create a village any way they want, but in brief, because that's all that is necessary. Anything larger than a village can meet the regular template, because there will be enough importance and information to fill in the template. Anything using the 'brief template' is not up for further development - it is adequate: this is what I am proposing.  AND it becomes easy to create a place to meet the needs of another type of entry without having to either put it on the 'Unfinished Entries list' to linger for years, or spend a great deal of time and effort creating a full-fledged (regular) Places Entry which may be done out of duty, not love or ability.

  To take my example above, that IS all there is to say about "Fourstrals".  It's a sheep-farming community - good!  Done!  No more NEEDS to be said, or developed.  In fact, why would anyone be interested in developing it further, when there are plenty of options to create a new village, with its own focus, from nothing?  So there is no 'has to create' situation - this proposal actually frees people to make more place entries. 

   BUT we all benefit from knowing that Fourstrals exists:  the next time someone makes a receipt about how to cook mutton, she can find the names of a few mutton-making areas to cross-reference to.  "The famous Fourstrals mutton is recommended, as it has the tenderest texture of any young lamb available..."    Or in describing a weavers' centre, to know that the workers obtain their wool from Deaf Yow and Whutt, sending back bolts of finished cloth.    Or stating that New Santhala is fed, among many other streams of imports and commerce, from the green fields around Hittlesford and Fourstrals.  Slowly, the map fills in, with the maximum of detail necessary to do so, and the trade and commerce thrive with it.


Hope that makes my proposal clearer: it actually OPENS options, not closes them! 

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

Again, hmm, yes, no

I see what you mean and I had thought earlier already, that we could need some short beast/plant descriptions , that not all has to be developed as much as we have it now. However,

- Where would you place these villages? Would they show on the (Manthrian) map at all? Or don't they need a fixed location? Say, your Fourstral (why this name ) is situated on the southern slope of the Rimmerin Ring near the Silverrock Warden? But no more precise location is given?

I think your idea is cool and I'm kind of (positive) excited, but  I'm concerned about any not yet discovered disadvantages as well. I'm feeling somehow unwell with the idea without being able to pin down why.

Maybe we should split this discussion up and do a new thread?

[Coren FrozenZephyr]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up Judith! Personally, I am %100 for the idea. It would make life much easier and clear up time to do more fun/important stuff.

For instance I've been carrying several dozen Krean villages/towns in my head for years, which need to be pinned down (as "production" settlements they are necessary to work out trade networks) but are the sort of places on which I have nothing more to say. A full-scale place entry would be like using a hammer to crack a nut and a regional overview incorporating them all at once is too much of an effort... So nothing gets done.

Though I think I know what is troubling you Talia: I would not want this new format to be abused or regarded by newcomers as the easy way out for getting more entries under their belt etc. I don't want to wake up one morning and find that a hundred senseless villages have mushroomed all over the Twin Kingdom like fungi after rainfall.

I will not suggest restricting these new mini-entries to members+. However, we can state that: (1) they are not meant to be an excuse for laziness and an unwillingness to learn about Santharia + (2) as a rule of thumb (rather than an absolute, unbending rule) mini-entries should be used as supplements to a normal place-entry. A bit like appendices to dissertations- the information needs to be mentioned for the sake of completeness but you don't want it in the main body of your argument. Suppose I'm writing an entry on a major/interesting Krean town which specializes in textiles, and using Ringan's calculations I realize that I need about 2-3 more villages to import food from and say a few smallish towns from which to import dyes, cloth etc. Being able to deal with these through such mini-entries would be a godsend for development. Have you ever found that you have said everything you want to say but there still remains three more sections like "flora/fauna/myths" that need to "filled in"? How much like a chore development then becomes!

Re locations: Hmm... I fear I don't really understand your concern here. Can you please elaborate? Presumably one would describe the territory/location as usual; if there is a detailed map - like Mantharia - one can mark it there and then Arti can make the necessary changes upon integration. Those of us who are not lucky enough to have access to such a well laid-out map have to make do with a rough verbal description and hope we are more or less in the right ball-park anyway. F.e. we all know - ought to know... - that Sihitara was the largest Ancient Krean metropolis, yet I dare say no reader actually knows where it is on the map...


PS: If a new thread is started, please feel free to move this post there. Sorry for hi-jacking your thread Mina!

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

Yes, Coren, you pinned it down!

It is a good idea to link them to major entries, could well apply for beasts and plants as well. These could even be developed later, if there is somebody who wants to do it.
My question about these little villages and hamlets is following:
Will be there more villages and hamlets than on the Manthria map already and will they show up there or not?

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Last 10 Shouts: Seeker Yesterday at 07:41:35 Are Shabby and Dek the same person in my mind.  Strange. Artimidor Federkiel 20 May 2012, 10:38:19 Ah yes, forgot to point out to Shabakuk that Chapter 5 is ready for testing - will do so now! Deklitch Hardin 18 May 2012, 09:35:51 I am pleased it is going well for you though Seeker ... can't wait to try it and die. Deklitch Hardin 18 May 2012, 09:35:13 No, I didn't Seeker. I think it is Master Anfang who is doing the testing Seeker 18 May 2012, 08:30:42 Dek-   shoals is going very well.  Art is starting on chapter 6. A very important chapter.  Did you test chapter 5? Valan Nonesuch 15 May 2012, 05:41:48 *Valan filches some parchments from around the corners of the pile before sauntering off attempting to look casual and tripping over the hem of his robes.* Bard Judith 14 May 2012, 07:33:29 Waiiiiiit!   (Bard staggers back with a pile of Unfinished Projects so high her arms are trembling)  Let me stuff mine in there before you lock the room!  *looks guiltily around and snatches the Quenyss parchment off the top of the stack* Deklitch Hardin 13 May 2012, 08:12:31 and throw the key into the deepest river we can find, or the midst of one of the volcanoes Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin 13 May 2012, 03:19:29 Then I say we lock the Unfinished Projects room.  If Arti ever gets in there.... big trouble. Deklitch Hardin 13 May 2012, 02:54:30 I'm amazed you can see the Altario projects pile considering it is dwarfed by my unfinished projects. For which I apologise.

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