Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

Mina

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #15 on: 19 December 2008, 22:02:58 »

Thanks for the comments, Ringan. I'll look over them again when I'm less sleepy.

Unfortunately, I don't think discussions and comments are supposed to be posted in masterplan threads themselves. Could someone with mod powers here move them to the discussion thread instead?


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Bard Judith

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #16 on: 20 December 2008, 01:34:27 »

I know, Mina - very sorry! We simply hijacked your thread and ran off with it... (blushes).

Ringan's points actually apply to most of Santharia, if not necessarily the northern and southernmost parts of Sarvonia, so we should have split the thread/moved out then. My apologies for distracting from Xaramon! Let's ask Art to create a new thread for Population Discussions.....


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Ringan

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #17 on: 21 December 2008, 17:23:00 »

Hi Mina,

Yes, I see - sorry to post that stuff here. Maybe a moderator can move those bits to the population thread.

I hope it was helpful for perspective!

I have done some further work along these lines and more reading and will post some ideas later (but elsewhere).

Best
Ring'a'ling

I had a dream I was a gnomish accountant, and then awoke a human philosopher; now I am not sure whether I am in fact a gnomish accountant dreaming I am a human philosopher!


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Mina

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #18 on: 22 December 2008, 09:24:57 »

No problem.

Since the posts haven't been moved yet, I'll post my reply here so it's less confusing.

Quote

First, I think there is an inconsistency in legends on the map. Based on the accuracy of the Manthria map (this is the arbiter of all legends), the distance between Cioso and Marcogg is the same as that between Ximax and Horth, about 600 strals. If I did my calculations right on your map, it is 450 strals. Anyhow, these sorts of numbers need to be made accurate, because the difference becomes pretty significant working out populations.

Um, well, I don't really know which is right either. It should be the same scale as the Manthria map though, since it was cut out from a map of Santharia that Arti enlarged to the same scale as the Manthria map. On the other hand, I've sometimes shifted things slightly from where they were on the kingdom map, taking the houses as just approximations of where the settlements are located, which might also explain the inconsistencies you've found. (By the way, I don't have a ruler with me now to make accurate measurements, but it seems to me both distances should only be slightly over 300 strals).

Well, let's see...
Yes, I also figured that most of the fertile areas are near the coasts and the lakes. So I guess I was right to put most of the cities in those areas then? What about along the river? I figured that it could support some small cities, especially since it makes importing food easier, but I'm not entirely certain.

I'm not too sure whether 10,000,000 or 5,000,000 is a better figure for the population. 10,000,000 would leave a lot of room for stuff, but I do not want the population to be too large compared to that of other provinces either; as you pointed out, much of its land isn't very good.

As for Ximax itself, what do you think would be a good figure for its population, and that of the peninsula it's on? Or, for that matter, each of the regions?

Or perhaps exact numbers can wait, since it seems it would depend on what's decided for other parts of the kingdom too. If it turns out more cities are needed for it to be realistic, maybe we could convert some of the towns into cities.

Anyway, this looks like a good start.

Quote

I had a dream I was a gnomish accountant, and then awoke a human philosopher; now I am not sure whether I am in fact a gnomish accountant dreaming I am a human philosopher!

Hmm, has someone been reading Zhuangzi? lol


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Ringan

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #19 on: 22 December 2008, 20:51:02 »

Hi Mina,

Well, I will write here too since the thread is not yet moved (I hope these messages are not too heavy for the moderator to move...)

Population: I will look, but somewhere one of the aged sages here made the strong claim and with some authority that Ciaso to Marcogg is 600 strals. This is an important number since 2x distance --> 4x area --> 4x population.

Yes, I like the 5,000,000 number more too.

The problem is not so much generally with sufficient cities as with enough mid-sized towns. But I am inclined to agree that better would be to omit small villages from the map unless they are part of an adventure, and note anything bigger than 800 or so with a cottage, about 1 cottage per 1000. If it is a walled town, use houses starting at 2000-8000 (avg. 5000 and represented by 1 house). Then another house is maybe the 8000 to 22000 range (avg 15000). A thirdhouse gets you into the large city range of 22000 to 34000 (avg 28000). After than use an entirely image for the big cities. Just an idea... but something like this, then set it as a universal convention for everyone accross continents and provinces.

I like the way you distributed population. If maybe half the pop is in the south, a quarter is at the lakes, an eighth on the Ximax peninsula and an eighth spread through the other regions. Something like that is my guess. I imagine pop density on the peninsula to be an average between the south high and middle empty regions. As for Ximax, I wouldnt think too big - Oxford and Cambridge are both much smaller than London and suits their atmosphere. Also, it is not on a coast and not in an extremely agriculturally rich area: how about 20000?

Yes, Zhuangzi, though of course it might be that I am neither... just a dream? Maybe your dream? If so, I promise to try to be a nice dream! Oh and thank you for dreaming

Bestest
Ringan


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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #20 on: 22 December 2008, 20:57:45 »

Hmmm... perhaps a population chlorapleth would not be out of the question here... that may help with the heaviness of the messages


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Mina

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #21 on: 24 December 2008, 09:53:55 »

Well, I don't really plan to list more than a few of the non-city settlements, and even then just the more notable ones. Otherwise, I suspect there might not be much room for anything else. lol

We can just assume that enough of them exist to support the cities we have, no?

Hmm, I don't know if 20,000 is enough for Ximax. As I said in the other thread, it was historically either independent or quite autonomous, depending on the period, controlling the whole peninsula (or at least the parts easily accessible to humans). So, one of my concerns is that it, or at least the area it controls, has enough people that it can field a strong enough army to hold its lands. It's not so bad during those times it was part of Centorauria, but even then, it's at the far end of Centoraurian territory, and in any case the mages might not want to be too dependent on outside protection. Perhaps there is some way we could increase the population? I did put a river there, if it helps.

Chlorapleth? What's that? veryconfused


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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #22 on: 24 December 2008, 18:56:57 »

Its a map that uses color to indicate something- you know those population density maps, with the cities colored purple and the bush, or the outback, or he tundra all pale yellow or grey?
It would essentially be a more obvious visual representation of population density.


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Ringan

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Ximax & Chloraplethi

« Reply #23 on: 26 December 2008, 01:12:17 »

Not sure what the plural for chlorapleth is (nice word! thanks for the education!)

Ximax: even if you doubled the population, traditionally you can only count on 5 to 10% of the population to fight (another 20% maybe in untrained militia - i.e., every abled bodied male of age), so you have only added 2000 soldiers tops, which is a drop in the bucket so far as controlling the province goes. Great empires usually have something else holding them together other than brute force - e.g., the Holy Roman Empire had a common heritage and church, while others had roads and mercantile infrastructure. Yet others have had cultural sway. Anyhow, most of the soldiers are likely from the country in any case, since there is where most of the population can be found.

My guess is that the combination of awe inspiring pyrotechnical illusions combined with a fair amount of genuine magical power for the hordes who remain unimpressed coupled with a really first rate diplomatic corp that keeps the various factions balanced against each other... most the last really! A natural reason for Ximax having the leadership role in the province can be summed up in "who else could do it?" I can well imagine the South Coast (probably the most powerful region) and the North Lake districts never accepting the other as sovereign over them. Add the nomadic central tribes with as a third, and there is no way they would be willing to bow to one of the other. But a little scholarly town out on the peninsula, with just enough force and power to be impressive, and quite defensible itself as history showed, but of a culture and kind quite different, one who was also not bent on micromanaging the different peoples, but primarily interested in preventing large scale war and maintaining general order throughout the province... All the different peoples of the province might very willingly bow to them as a first amongst equals.

Sometimes it is the small and the passive that can have the most authority and control. Just my two silver pennies.

May the ever evolving dream shower love, riches and joy upon you this Xmas.
Ringan


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Mina

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Re: Master Plan: The Santharian Province of Xaramon

« Reply #24 on: 26 December 2008, 08:48:33 »

No, no, not controlling the whole province. lol

I meant just the peninsula it's on, which should be much easier than controlling the whole province, especially since most of the peninsula is mountains that are pretty much inaccessible to humans anyway. Historically, it was mostly a fairly autonomous part of Centorauria, and there were at least two times I can remember when it was independent; once when Centorauria broke up, and another time when Centorauria was weakened by a war and the Ximaxians for some reason decided to seek independence. So, I'm more looking for how it might be able to hold its historical territory (more or less the area in plum on the map), especially during those times it was independent.

As for why it's the provincial capital, I've outlined that as well. It's pretty much what you have mentioned, though I think not as active in governing the province (that's mostly what the Dukes do).


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