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Author Topic: 'Packaging' Magic - Regarding Reagents, Relics, and Enchantments  (Read 4486 times)
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Fox
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« on: 28 March 2008, 14:07:13 »

I meant to start up this discussion while I was around a few months ago, but my school quarter got a bit hectic so I had to disappear again.

This is something that I feel we've left out in the cold for awhile, and think we should start deciding just how these things work. Mostly this is just going to be a lot of questions, I don't expect anyone to have any actual answers to them obviously, but just to get the wheels turning. So mostly just brainstorming, here. :)


Let's start by examining how these things typically work in other systems:

Reagents: Very often, reagents are the primarily catalyst towards spells. Instead of pulling magic from the inside, a person has to 'build' a spell, assembling specific materials that are ignited with the spell formula or will. Often, these are just random items such as mundane herbs, though at times, very specific, rare substances are needed, specifically magically-inclined materials.

Relics: Staves, wands, rods, magic tomes, rings, and so on. In DnD, these are generally what I call 'packaged' magic, or 'magic-in-a-box'--they have charges for prepared spells that can be used on whim by someone who knows what they're doing. In other worlds, such as Harry Potter, these are instead 'conduits' of magic, often to the point that it is simply impossible to cast without them (in HP, casting without a wand, and generally without your own specific wand, results in only weak, uncontrollable magic).

Enchantments: Things like scrolls, tattoos, runes, and so on. Again, these are often 'packaged' spells, sometimes so powerful yet simple that even those who can't cast magic regularly are able to use them. It's like being handed a loaded and cocked gun and told to pull the trigger.



Now, how would they work in Santharia?:
 
In Santharia, magic is, generally, all around us. As each element is generally present, a mage can generally find enough power just from his environment to cast his spells. In other words, Santharian magic has a very 'Force-like' quality to it--more about the concentration and will than any formula or reagent. In some spells, we talk about reagents, but we don't really discuss *how* these things enhance the spell, beyond simple concentration benefits by tricking the mind into thinking it *needs* the reagent. This has worked as a bandaid solution but, due to the general cost of such items, you can be sure that eventually young mages would stop bothering with what is obviously a consumer hoax.

Materials and reagents offer a very neat element to magic. It'd be nice if we could incorporate this without simply being 'concentration-helpers'.

Our mages tend not to need conduits to magic, with willpower being the most important thing. Spell books are not needed because spells are, ultimately, frivolous to us when the system is what is important, not a random routine. We could honestly take down all the spells on the site and our magic would still work just fine--they serve mainly as examples of what can be done rather than as hardline 'you must know the spell specifically to do it'.

Enchantments are about the only thing we've really discussed in ernest in the past. Generally, Sphere 3 is the sphere of making permanent changes to something--essentially, 'enchanting' it. Level 9 has traditionally been the level where it becomes possible to actually make true magic enchantments on items, creating relics and artifacts and such.

What we haven't discussed, however, is just how far this process can go. Sphere 3's description states that you take out, and put in, new ounia, allowing you to shift things around on a permanent level. The description thus indicates specifically that making a permanent *mundane* change is possible (IE, turning something to stone forever), but, it doesn't really give much indication as to enchantments. Can you add 'variables' by Sphere 3? A magic effect/spell set to go off in certain situations? How would this work? Can you, as I mention before, 'package' magic into someone else's Car'all? IE, you have our favourite 'bag' example regarding Car'all, can you, say open the bag and put a *bomb* inside of it? Can you 'implant' motivations in Ounia? Obviously, Wind ounia contains memories (in general, memories might actually be Earth because they're a static image of the past, but that's a debate for another time), Fire contains emotional impulses, Water is the desire to change, Earth is stable unrelentingness. That's all well and good, but a bit vague. Are our mages capable of actually subplanting rational ideas in the Ounia? Not just adding or increasing Wind ounia, but actually building new memories and ideas? If so, then, by that right, are we able to, thusly, create 'subconscious', miniature memories that know that when X happens, it must trigger the other ounia bound to it to start Y reaction? In other words, can a mage program a spell effect into, say, a sword, that makes it automatically burst into flame when it strikes an opponent?


What about building a spell through science? In other words, taking reagents that, while no small consequence on their own, when added together and the necessary will/formula is performed, builds (on its own) links between them to start an effect? If so, this would add some amazing potential to our mages, who right now are very limited due what they can actually do per sphere learned. If links can be formed mundanely by activating reagents, we could have low level casters able to perform Sphere 2 or 3 effects, even multi-element magic, through simply gathering the materials and somehow 'activating them'.

Could a rock, for instance, be composed of the Earth element, primarily the hardness property? Perhaps, when added with other materials and activated, a spell-like effect could be produced without actually having the caster have to create it themselves? IE, when you eat, the food is digested and its ounia are added to your ounia (basic idea), the links happen on their own, the digestion is the activation, it's a pseudo-magic effect that requires little on the part of the person, but the links that form and activate are purely mundane and automatic in nature. Spells could perhaps be built in this same manner, classifying certain objects as some property or another and then combining them and somehow activating them which causes such links to form purely on their own. This, actually, gives us a reason for spellcasters to have spellbooks. Right now, simply knowing the system and concentrating is enough. But the magic takes a long time to learn how to do the effects 'yourself'. If reagents can be used in such a way, a spellbook could detail what reagents are heavily invested towards what element/property, what spell effects can be accomplished by pairing what reagents together, and so on. This actually gives us the ability to have 'research magi', who spend their time gathering rare things and testing them with other rare things to see what happens. Magical alchemy, as it were.


And then, regarding relics, what about conduits? Can certain things, like staves and wands and so on, act as a bridge to your element? I've discussed this with Mina before when I updated the Water Extraction spell, but could a properly prepared staff actually be able to sever links to an element in the air, pull that element into the staff itself (creating links to the new ounia in itself), and then, through concentration on the caster's part, apply those ounia to a spell? For instance. Level 2 mage. Can only cast Sphere 1 spells. But! He has a staff. Could he actually cast a fireball, a Sphere 2 spell, by using his staff's Sphere 3 power to collect fire ounia out of the air, severing the links, pulling them into itself, then creating a fireball at the tip before severing the links again and then hurling it outwards? That's a very rough description, let's try another... when I was updating the Water Extraction spell, I thought about the effect that touch might have, if the mundane effect of touching something would actually create links between your Car'all and the target's Car'all to form one big single Car'all, and therefore you could transfer ounia between your Car'all and their Car'all even without being able to use Sphere 3 yet. I believe the answer was no, you couldn't. But would it be possible to prepare a staff or wand so that it could? IE, you touch a target with your staff, and the staff's power on its own acts as a conduit between your body and the target's body, allowing you to manipulate the person's Car'all as if it were part of your own?

Obviously, to enchant a staff or whatever in such a manner would require us to decide how exactly Enchantments work. IE, are Sphere 3 users, or maybe Xeua users (likely Xeua users), able to create variables and actually latch a pre-determined spell effect permanently onto an item. Rather than a single effect, but the ability to trigger an effect when conditions are met.


Thoughts?
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Mina
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« Reply #1 on: 28 March 2008, 22:35:05 »

I wish I had more time to think about such things.  Been busy with school too. 

Reagents:
Well, aside from concentration aids, which I think would generally be reusable or easily-obtained items anyway, I think I had a couple more ideas the last time we talked about this. 

1. Things that really do help the spell directly in some way, eg. as a source of ounia for Sphere 3 spells. 

2. Things that are traditional, whether they actually help or not.  Well, I guess there probably aren't many in this category that don't do anything useful. 

3. Things that are indirectly helpful.  I mentioned tareptail seeds in one of my entries, the idea being that it could help with learning certain Wind spells by giving a general idea of how the wind (that the mage created) is blowing, or if there's any at all. 

Enchantments:
Might actually be doable below level 9, I think.  Currently what I'm working on is that level 9 indicates complete mastery of Sphere 3, and hence of a particular element, and is the highest 'normal' rank.  The sort of techniques needed to perform enchantments would be learnt by level 7 and 8, but might be fully effective until they are mastered at level 9. 

As for enchantments that produce triggered effects, it doesn't sound impossible to me, as there are natural processes that essentially do just that, but I don't really know how a mage would create such effects either.  I guess it could be done with Xeua magic, or at most Xeua plus Ecua, but it sounds like it would be extremely complicated.  Putting such spells into scrolls and selling them to rich people could be a good way for the Academy to make money though. 

Alchemy:
Well, Ximaxian theories can definitely be applied to more than just 'practical magic'.  It's supposed to be an explanation for how the world works, after all.  So I wouldn't be surprised if there are alchemists who follow and apply Ximaxian theories.  But, I'm not sure if it's something that would be taught at the Academy itself.  If yes, where in the Academy?  Would there be a separate tower for it or sometihng? 
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« Reply #2 on: 28 March 2008, 22:49:06 »

Remember that you are often going to be discussing this from a primarily human attitude and world view... (understandably.. :)  )

This is fine - sort it out that way, because humans are the primary contributors to the Compendium - but realize that other races may very well believe that magic works differently.  And it may indeed work differently for them - unlike scientific principles.

Dwarves see reagents as tools.  No more, no less.  Something that needs to be accomplished by magic is a task, and whatever you use to accomplish that task is a tool.  They would no more expect that waving vaguely in the direction of a rock and commanding it to crumble would actually WORK without a wand or reagent than without a pick or aceed!   Thus, their perspective of magic is a  lot less mystical and a lot more practical; they consider reagents essential to performing magic and keep them as fresh and 'honed' as possible.

My two sans!  Thanks for letting me express that...

Judith
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« Reply #3 on: 29 March 2008, 00:47:24 »

Remember that you are often going to be discussing this from a primarily human attitude and world view... (understandably.. :)  )

This is fine - sort it out that way, because humans are the primary contributors to the Compendium - but realize that other races may very well believe that magic works differently.  And it may indeed work differently for them - unlike scientific principles.

Of course, Bard. :)

I guess I should have said 'from the Ximaxian system's viewpoint'.
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« Reply #4 on: 29 March 2008, 01:50:05 »

I wish I had more time to think about such things.  Been busy with school too. 

Reagents:
Well, aside from concentration aids, which I think would generally be reusable or easily-obtained items anyway, I think I had a couple more ideas the last time we talked about this. 

1. Things that really do help the spell directly in some way, eg. as a source of ounia for Sphere 3 spells. 

2. Things that are traditional, whether they actually help or not.  Well, I guess there probably aren't many in this category that don't do anything useful. 

3. Things that are indirectly helpful.  I mentioned tareptail seeds in one of my entries, the idea being that it could help with learning certain Wind spells by giving a general idea of how the wind (that the mage created) is blowing, or if there's any at all.

The problem with 2 and 3 is that they aren't really 'reagents' then. Just learning aids. This is of course not that bad, but when spells list reagents, it's pretty unlikely that a mage is going to carry that kind of stuff around beyond classes if there's no 'real' effect to them.

I would like, personally to see more of the 1... stuff that really does help with spells. As well as possibly what I suggested in my post, which is essentially 'pieces' of a spell that can be combined and activated to form spell-like effects (without actually needing to be able to physically cast the spell under one's own power, IE, a person doing a level 7 spell while only being level 2, using reagents instead of personal ability). 

Quote
Enchantments:
As for enchantments that produce triggered effects, it doesn't sound impossible to me, as there are natural processes that essentially do just that, but I don't really know how a mage would create such effects either.  I guess it could be done with Xeua magic, or at most Xeua plus Ecua, but it sounds like it would be extremely complicated.  Putting such spells into scrolls and selling them to rich people could be a good way for the Academy to make money though.

Yeah, the 'how' is the issue. And it might really require Xeua mages, as they can create links between multiple elements which would probably be necessary for varied effects. Unless single element mages can trigger other elements based on what kind of input they put into their own element (IE the 'idea' for a spell-effect from a Wind mage enchantment automatically makes the other elements in the Car'all react to fulfill that idea). 


Quote
Alchemy:
Well, Ximaxian theories can definitely be applied to more than just 'practical magic'.  It's supposed to be an explanation for how the world works, after all.  So I wouldn't be surprised if there are alchemists who follow and apply Ximaxian theories.  But, I'm not sure if it's something that would be taught at the Academy itself.  If yes, where in the Academy?  Would there be a separate tower for it or sometihng? 

I don't see the need for a separate tower. I think we've already got enough towers and not enough different classes, actually. Since our magic is mostly knowing the system and then increasing personal ability, I do think we need more classes than just those centering around magic. Even mundane stuff like history, mathematics and sciences, and so on.

Thing is, again, how exactly Magical Alchemy (not science alchemy, here, that would probably be its own separate course) works. Regarding reagents, the activation of them, the effects they can produce, and so on. Magical alchemy would obviously be designed around producing spell effects equivalent to normal spells, but through material and slight magical methods (unlike science alchemy which is more producing mundane effects or herbal medicines through both mundane elements and mundane bonds. As in, putting two herbs together and mashing them up might perform one science effect naturally on its own, while using some kind of spell formula or other magical idea might make the same two herbs produce a different, and much more unnatural, effect entirely).

« Last Edit: 29 March 2008, 05:35:11 by Fox » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: 29 March 2008, 23:47:41 »

@Bard Judith: Um, yeah, what Fox said.  We're more or less talking about the mainstream Ximaxian viewpoint, which I suppose would indeed be mainly Human. 

Quote
The problem with 2 and 3 is that they aren't really 'reagents' then. Just learning aids. This is of course not that bad, but when spells list reagents, it's pretty unlikely that a mage is going to carry that kind of stuff around beyond classes if there's no 'real' effect to them.

2 actually overlaps the other categories too; they're just also 'traditional'.  As for being learning aids, well, they would be very useful before one gets really good with the spell, maybe even necessary, so I think one would be using them for quite a while.  But yes, more category 1 stuff would be good.  Though with using them as an ounia source, I'm not sure listing them under the 'Reagent' section is the best way to do it.  A separate entry regarding what reagents are used for what sort of things might be better. 

Quote
Unless single element mages can trigger other elements based on what kind of input they put into their own element (IE the 'idea' for a spell-effect from a Wind mage enchantment automatically makes the other elements in the Car'all react to fulfill that idea). 

I doubt Wind has that kind of power.  It sounds more like a Raw Magic thing to me, directly messing with something so it reflects a different Form.  But by strengthening xeua links between ounia of different elements, an elemental mage should be able to increase the infuence of another element too, except they would also have to increase the influence of their own element to do that, and they wouldn't have much control over what properties the other element's ounia express.   

Quote
Thing is, again, how exactly Magical Alchemy (not science alchemy, here, that would probably be its own separate course) works. Regarding reagents, the activation of them, the effects they can produce, and so on. Magical alchemy would obviously be designed around producing spell effects equivalent to normal spells, but through material and slight magical methods (unlike science alchemy which is more producing mundane effects or herbal medicines through both mundane elements and mundane bonds. As in, putting two herbs together and mashing them up might perform one science effect naturally on its own, while using some kind of spell formula or other magical idea might make the same two herbs produce a different, and much more unnatural, effect entirely).
Um, I think what I was talking about was more of what you would call scientific alchemy, where no direct magical intervention is involved.  What you're calling magical alchemy sounds just like the use of category 1 reagents to me, except maybe they're more essential to creating the desired effects. 

Quote
I don't see the need for a separate tower. I think we've already got enough towers and not enough different classes, actually. Since our magic is mostly knowing the system and then increasing personal ability, I do think we need more classes than just those centering around magic. Even mundane stuff like history, mathematics and sciences, and so on.

Definitely.  We already have towers for teaching non-magical stuff.  I suppose one of them could be devoted to scientific alchemy following Ximaxian principles?  But magical alchemy sounds like it could be part of the normal magic syllabus. 
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« Reply #6 on: 30 March 2008, 02:32:03 »

2 actually overlaps the other categories too; they're just also 'traditional'.  As for being learning aids, well, they would be very useful before one gets really good with the spell, maybe even necessary, so I think one would be using them for quite a while.  But yes, more category 1 stuff would be good.  Though with using them as an ounia source, I'm not sure listing them under the 'Reagent' section is the best way to do it.  A separate entry regarding what reagents are used for what sort of things might be better.

Agreed.

Two ideas for how we could do that is both a separate entry concentrating specifically on reagents (a catalog, as it were), as well as perhaps an additional spell list that details specific 'reagent-oriented' spells, ones that are cast purely by reagents rather than the traditional pure willpower ones we use now--those kind of spells could be more ritual-focused, complete with actual formula and so on.
 
Quote
I doubt Wind has that kind of power.  It sounds more like a Raw Magic thing to me, directly messing with something so it reflects a different Form.  But by strengthening xeua links between ounia of different elements, an elemental mage should be able to increase the infuence of another element too, except they would also have to increase the influence of their own element to do that, and they wouldn't have much control over what properties the other element's ounia express.

I'm not talking about messing with form, or at least I'm trying not to. Essentially what we really need is just some way that enchantments can be complex enough to perform specific actions based on specific circumstances. The idea to do something from Wind is just one example (since persuasion and other such mind effects are also from Wind. Essentially it gives the idea of the body to do something, and the body does the actions on its own mundanely, the Wind just provides the order).

Quote
Um, I think what I was talking about was more of what you would call scientific alchemy, where no direct magical intervention is involved.  What you're calling magical alchemy sounds just like the use of category 1 reagents to me, except maybe they're more essential to creating the desired effects.

Yeah, much more essential is my idea. Spells that are based purely on the materials and activation formula used, instead of the personal skill of the caster. Your definition of category 1 reagents is more 'aids' rather than 'necessary', and more just as a source of ounia than anything else.
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« Reply #7 on: 30 March 2008, 04:49:36 »

I don't think you could do anything really magical without using willpower.  I was thinking more along the line that reagents could provide ounia and/or properties and maybe structure that when added to spellcasting could create effects that would otherwise not be possible.  Basically sort of modifying the spell. 

The one example I can think of at the moment is creating ice.  Ice is supposed to be water with Earth influence, so there must be certain amounts of Earth ounia to be present before it can exist.  Normally this isn't a problem, but suppose there is a mage somewhere that doesn't have enough Earth ounia around to sufficiently influence the water?  Then the mage would only be able to make cold water, not ice.  Introducing something with enough Earth ounia expressing the relevant properties(such as the caster's body, but that might be messy) into the equation would allow it to be done.  But that's not a very good example.  There probably are cases where the ounia and properties required are harder to come by, and so would require reagents to be used almost every time. 

Edit: If I'm not making sense, it's probably because I'm pretty much falling asleep.  I think I'll go to bed now. 
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« Reply #8 on: 30 March 2008, 06:16:22 »

I don't think you could do anything really magical without using willpower.  I was thinking more along the line that reagents could provide ounia and/or properties and maybe structure that when added to spellcasting could create effects that would otherwise not be possible.  Basically sort of modifying the spell.

I didn't mean completely without willpower. I meant, without the same kind you'd need to do a much more powerful spell. Or even without the training to (Hedge Wizards, for instance). 
 

See, we've already got reagents that are just aiding or perhaps could be modifying the spells. Essentially what I'm wondering though is if even non-mages could cast spell-like effects through the proper knowledge of reagents, formula, and some manner of will to use them.
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« Reply #9 on: 30 March 2008, 11:00:29 »

But willing something to happen, even if it's only a small part of the whole thing, doesn't that count as spellcasting too?  I think you'd still need at least a bit of magical training to do that. 
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« Reply #10 on: 30 March 2008, 11:50:48 »

Some manner of belief that it will actually work, yeah. I'm not saying that some random person can pick up a spellbook, gather X reagents, speak the formula, and BAM spell!. But I mean, if he were to spend a while studying the book, seeing how it all works, and truly believe that it WILL work, then he should be able to use it to its fullest.
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« Reply #11 on: 30 March 2008, 15:34:34 »

Agreed.  But Ximax wouldn't teach it that way, would it?  Though outside of Ximax, that might well be one of the ways in which it is practiced. 
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« Reply #12 on: 30 March 2008, 15:49:30 »

Agreed.  But Ximax wouldn't teach it that way, would it?  Though outside of Ximax, that might well be one of the ways in which it is practiced. 

Why wouldn't they? It's still magic, and can allow students to produce effects beyond their personal ability, it's 'job' magic, something mages can spend their time cataloging and then subsequently presenting their studies. It also helps them understand how magic works... reagents are readily studyable for arcane content and use. But, more important than all, it's SELLABLE magic. ;)
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« Reply #13 on: 30 March 2008, 16:10:44 »

I meant, they wouldn't teach it in the sense that it works because you believe it works, but more like how they normally talk about spells, willing certain changes to happen within the car'all and such. 
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« Reply #14 on: 30 March 2008, 16:24:30 »

I meant, they wouldn't teach it in the sense that it works because you believe it works, but more like how they normally talk about spells, willing certain changes to happen within the car'all and such. 

Hm. I don't see why not. Belief that something will work *is* willing the changes to happen. That's who Ximaxian magi explain Clerical magic, afterall. The nature of will is simply believing enough that it will work.


I'm sure a Ximaxian lecture would go through the various viewpoints anyway for comparison. But reagents for Ximax would obviously be something referring to willing the variant reagents' ounia and properties into reacting to produce a magical effect.

*shrugs* Maybe it just seems like the same thing to me. :)
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