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Author Topic: Sphere II, Clarification  (Read 2613 times)
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Fox
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« on: 16 May 2008, 11:44:18 »

Okay, as mentioned in the other thread, I think some clarification of SII is needed.

Arti, I asked you previously if the levitation of objects via manipulation of other ounia is possible, to which you stated no. But to me, that seems to go against what SII does, so I figure I might have worded my question wrong, or even that our (at least among Mina, myself, and others) belief of SII has been in error for quite some time.


Here is our believed definition of Sphere II:

Sphere II allows the movement of elemental ounia, in any manner. This can be movement within a Car'all, or without (as in manipulation of ounia in the air, IE Fireball). By movement, this is defined as anywhere from singular to batch movement of ounia in the direct fashion of which movement is described... a line from point a to point b.

See here.

Secondly, according to Mina, activating a property of an element (for instance, heat for fire, or coldness for water), can be done via Sphere II without needing to use Sphere I. So thus one can activate such a property and not have to concentrate on it to keep it active, since it isn't Sphere I.


Next, is the idea of lift. Now, there is a rock. It has lots of Earth ounia, and is also a solid object. Thus, moving Earth ounia up would lift the solid ounia. Because it lifts the solid ounia, the rest of the ounia are 'pushed' up as part of the action. Thus allowing Earth levitation of rocks and other Earth dominant items. This implies that a Car'all can be pushed through the pushing of its solid state (since people can push each other mundanely and it actually pushes them, rather than going right through, thus solid force on a solid Car'all results in directional movement). Note that this is not Sphere I, and does not reduce the influence of the rock (to make it lighter and let the Wind carry it indirectly), nor does it increase the influence of Earth. It simply moves it in an upwards manner, and, as it is solid, pushing the rest of the solid mass upwards as well--such being enough to physically move a whole Car'all.

Note that this might also apply to a large body of Water... moving the Water ounia up as in a wave and thus pushing something, like a ship, upwards through such a process.


This definition of Sphere II takes into account that Sphere II is straight up movement. This is evidenced by the Schools of Magic entry example of Clap of Thunder, which is the process of smashing two clouds together through the movement of Wind ounia in the air.

To use the terminology of Sphere II, it is 'applying' ounia. So say you have two groupings of solid Earth ounia. One layer on top of the other. By applying the bottom layer to the top layer, you are attempting to merge the bottom into the top. However, since both are solid, the bottom instead simply pushes on the top layer, which pushes it upwards. So, repeating this, an object can be 'carried' as ounia is pushed upwards.

It could also work as you applying the top layer to the space above it, thus moving upwards. But because it is solidly bound to the bottom layer, the bottom layer is pulled up as well.


The above is the first idea, the idea of Sphere II that has commonly been the interpretation through the years thusfar.



Now, for a counterargument, reading over the entry gives idea of a second interpretation. That being, that movement is in fact a misnomer, and that instead it is '2+2'. What this means, is that ounia is 'moved' to a single orientation, and that, by such orientation, results in a reaction. IE, gathering Earth ounia in the air to a single location might cause the ounia to express their properties with each other, thus "conjuring" a rock, which appears out of thin air.

This still seems to imply that movement is there, however. The difference is, the movement is rather the subconscious application, while the end result is the true nature. IE, instead of moving construction materials into place for a specific effect, a specific effect is outlined which causes the construction materials to move there automatically. What would happen then, however, if an Earth mage were to attempt to make a rock levitate? Would this even be possible under this interpretation? Such an interpretation is much more vague, implying movement but not exactly being strictly movement.

Essentially, the ultimate question is 'is Sphere II straight-up movement of an object's elemental ounia, or is it something else?'


Thus, we would need to indicate with clarification what is meant by 'Applying' as defined in the Schools of Magic entry. This would likely be able to come up as a part of the terminology list.

I hope this is a better rehashing of my question from the commandments thread. Note here that we are dealing with a single spell and a single process, so there is no separate spells needed, whether at once or in a combo. So the question is not about amount of effects to produce a single end result, but rather whether the result is even possible with a single application of a single effect on a single focus.

« Last Edit: 16 May 2008, 11:45:54 by Fox » Logged
Mina
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« Reply #1 on: 16 May 2008, 16:59:38 »

Things like levitating a rock with Sphere 2 Earth magic are, I think, possible but inefficient.  Creating a wave is somewhat different though, in that you're deforming something, instead of trying to move the whole thing while keeping its Structure as it is, and so is probably somewhat less difficult. 
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« Reply #2 on: 19 May 2008, 22:29:04 »

Something I read in the description for the spell Treacherous Embrace of the Water element.

Quote
Once physical contact has been established, the mage uses Sphere II techniques to withdraw the Water ounía from a person’s body. He should manipulate these ounía into locations spread around the target, as the body will be inclined to move towards them (and may float in the process). By spreading of the ounía, the target’s cár’áll becomes trapped in the center

Please forgive any incorrect useage of terminology.

Clearly here, it's suggesting the use of Sphere II on Water ounía is sufficient to make a person float. The rock, Fox talks about, I would assume would work in the same way.

I get the impression, from Fox's comments, that such examples will be rife amongst the existing spell definitions, whereas they contradict the current discussion about movement.

However...

In response to one of my questions in my 'Greetings' thread, Rookie posted her rough guide to the Sphere's as she see's them for easy recollection, and put forth...

"Sphere II (moving ounia within their car'áll)"

Moving them within their current car'áll. Now this is interesting.

So what I think this actually means, is Sphere II allows the mage to concentrate all the ounia of their element in one (presumably small) part of the car'áll, but not actually outside of it (requires Sphere III)?

Now this definition would negate the spell I mentioned above, as that details the movement of the water ounia outside of the target's body, which I assume is the car'áll in this instance. Despite the fact the X links aren't removed, there is still movement outside the car'áll and therefore it shouldn't be allowed under this definition Sphere II.

But how about the rock with all those Earth ounia? Using Sphere II to pack them oh-so-densly into the top of the rock, squashing, squeezing and pushing them.

If the mage pushed them hard enough toward the top of the rock, wouldn't this cause an effect much like  (picturing Finding Nemo) all the fish in a net swimming in the same direction, downwards. So much so the rock could actually levitate?

I don't know. But it's an interesting thought.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2008, 22:31:15 by Smee » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 20 May 2008, 00:56:05 »

Nope, it means just what it says.. Fox is here pulling on the water ounia to draw then outside of the car'all in question. However, she is not actually removing them from the car'all. Imagine a big ball of rubber bands, and pulling on all the blue ones. They will be outside the actual ball, but will remain part of it as well. Car'all=Body would be in most cases a false assumption.
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« Reply #4 on: 20 May 2008, 00:57:51 »

Aah, nice analogy. Thanks.
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« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2008, 04:43:45 »

Well, I see you try very hard to explain something that isn't actually very"elemental", in the sense that you attempt to achieve something for which a certain element isn't designed for, Fox.

It's like Mina said: Things like levitating a rock with Sphere 2 Earth magic are possible but inefficient. Wind is made for levitation, because you actually make something lighter through manipulation. An earth manipulation would eventually work against the direction of the intended spell. If you pull earth together you are likely to make something heavier instead of lighter. If you disperse earth within the cár'áll, hoping for wind to take over and dominate the structure then it is more a random effect. Light things might then leviate briefly, but the effect couldn't be properly handled. Earth spells therefore should basically focus on applying Earth properties.

So I'd say Sphere II means that an object's elemental ounia (e.g. Earth) is being manipulated by an Earth mage, actually channeled through the mage (see Commandments thread). I guess channeling might be the correct term for Sphere II. It doesn't necessarily mean that this channeling/alignment is always done to increase the specific elemental influence, it could also be used to deliberate cause a chaotic effect (e.g. at Fire spells). But trying to achieve something for which the opposite element is usually responsible cannot really work in my point of view.
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« Reply #6 on: 21 May 2008, 21:23:52 »

It's not that I'm trying to explain it as being not elemental, Arti, but more that the previous understanding of how Sphere II works has been that very general 'movement' of one's element ounia, in all the general manner in which movement can be defined.

So thus what you're saying, is that that movement is in fact not so general, but rather very specific to accomplish a purely elemental effect. What you are suggesting is in fact that ounia in Sphere II are always 'pulled together', rather than simply moved. So Sphere II is thus less 'movement' and more 'condensing'.
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« Reply #7 on: 23 May 2008, 02:11:18 »

I have not had the chance to read the full text but may I make a suggestion:

Try not to think of earth ounia as tiny little rocks floating around, invisible to the naked eye (so that as you move & gather these earth ounia at a specific area, they materialize into a larger rocks which you step on as a "magic carpet"). Instead perhaps it would help to think of ounia as nodules of energy expressing/radiating certain qualities. So as you move ounia, it is these qualities that move around.

This comes back to active & passive qualities (soor/ahm): If you move fire ounia expressing heat (ie fire ounia in which the quality of heat is active and other characteristics passive) from A ---> B; you heat the air in that trajectory. Or more accurately, you move the "heat" around. If you gather fire ounia expressing light and move them from A --> B, it appears as a unit of light/luminosity travelling from A to B. If you move fire ounia expressing the spiritual quality of vitality/animation, you awaken/animate the people that unit of ounia passes through. Quite a useful way to awaken a group of drowsy students in a lecture theatre!

Of course since carallia tend to revert to their original state (the Form acts as a magnet), if you do not continously "channel" fire ounia along that line, the effects will slowly dissipate. So it's more like an instantenous adrenalin rush which then fades away, than a continuous stimulant :)
« Last Edit: 23 May 2008, 02:15:48 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: 23 May 2008, 02:55:57 »

But Coren, the issue is, what if the Earth ounia are expressing the physical solidity property? If you are moving the Earth ounia from point A to point B... well what then? Heat is one thing, but solid matter is something else entirely. Does it just 'solidify' anything it comes into contact with? IE if you move Earth ounia in the air with the solidity property active it will thicken and weigh down the air as it passes through it? What happens if it tries to pass through other Car'all, however?

But then again, that leads to the question 'what happens if you move solid-expressing Earth ounia in one Car'all against another solid expressing Car'all'? To use some examples of what someone has mentioned in IRC, say someone wanted to hurl a giant rock with magic, or shoot solid Earth spikes up through the ground to impale someone--- is this even possible with an Earth mage?

If a rock is composed of largely solid-expressing Earth ounia, what happens when a mage applies Sphere II to these ounia? What kind of effects would be possible?


*Edit* Essentially, here's my main issue: Previously, our beliefs regarding Sphere II were of techniques that I thought were fairly in touch with the element idea of our system, while allowing spells that were rather 'common'. If Sphere II ends up not being movement afterall, then many common spells such as Spear of Frost, raising mounds or spears of Earth out of the ground, throwing Earth projectiles through magical might... etc, would become not applicable. Some of them would even become Wind spells (like magically hurling projectiles of rock), and would make Wind a very, very broad element, while making Sphere II rather less useful for other elements.
« Last Edit: 24 May 2008, 00:49:16 by Fox » Logged
Mina
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« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2008, 15:39:32 »

I think that what Coren is saying is that solidness and that which causes the solidness are not the same thing, ie. an oun expressing the solidness property will create a solid mass, but will not itself be solid. 

I should probably explain my view of Sphere 2 a little; Arti's description isn't exactly how I see it.  Basically, xeua links are quite 'elastic', and can easily be 'stretched'.  When two ounia are moved closer to each other, the link between them will generally strengthen, while moving them apart will generally cause the link to weaken.  Such movement alone will not pull other ounia along, only stretch or contract the links.  So when eg. to levitate a rock with Sphere 2, one basically has to move all the ounia at the same time, while keeping them in the same positions relative to each other, which is why it is rather inefficient. 

However this does not mean that spells involving movement can only be Wind.  Wind ounia is fairly common, and it shouldn't be too hard in most cases to open something to Wind influence to cause it to move.  Earth might have it a little harder, as it is Wind's opposing element, but I think that it can still do things like using Sphere 1 to move/levitate small stones, and maybe larger ones depending on how powerful the mage is.  Fire likes Wind, and Fire ounia will likely form links to Wind ounia on their own, so no additional input from the mage is needed to make things like fireballs move, only determine their direction of movement. 

Raising mounds and stuff out of the ground on the other hand isn't what I would consider Wind movement.  Here you are deforming the ground, much like creating a wave is basically deforming water.  It's definitely a Sphere 2 thing as far as I am concerned.  Of course, Wind could be used to cause something that looks similar, through pretty much the reverse of what's described in the previous paragraph, though once again since Earth opposes movement, it's somewhat harder to do that to Earth-dominant things, and also much less likely to occur in nature. 
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