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Author Topic: Magnetism - does it exist in Caelereth?  (Read 20032 times)
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Bard Judith
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« on: 14 June 2008, 21:08:27 »

In the process of compiling an extensive table of elements for Caelereth (from a developer's perspective atm) I ran across the beautifully-named Lodestone (magnetite).

I had to ask myself - and now you - Does Caelereth have the force of magnetism?  Do magnets, lodestones, and magnetic attraction even exist?  It’s a pretty ‘fantastic’ concept all by itself, if you really think about it…    that some vast bunches of ore-laden rock can attract other types of ore, and that there are lines of power running through the sphere which we live on and can tap into....

Should we create an equivalent?  Is magnetism already mentioned on the site?

(goes and checks)

Ok, 'magnet' is mentioned explicitly once in a Wind spell.  'Compass', on the other hand, is mentioned eleven times, including the concepts of four quadrants.  Don't think we can remove that, as it's implicit in all our mapping as well (north, south, east, west).   Therefore we must have magnetism, and some sort of way to measure it.... phew!    How is that possible on a disc?   

(thinks for a minute)  Here's some concepts - see what you think!

Perhaps 'magnetism' works from the centre outwards.  Somewhere in the centre of the disc is a magnetic middle, which confuses and thwarts travellers crossing it (a Bermudan Triangle effect).  As one moves outwards the pull of the four 'corners' of the earth (er, the disc of Caelereth) becomes proportionately stronger, until it drops off dramatically and chaotically in the Void.

A Caelerethian compass, then,  is constructed from four disparate 'lodestones', each collected from a area as far to the outside as possible.  The more distant, the more accurate, and of course more expensive, such a compass is.   Hey, this could work!

  A compass made of lodepebbles from the Prominent Mountains, Strata, Voldar and Denilou would be reasonably affordable, and allow one to navigate generally around the peninsula of Sarvonia.  However, large trader ships would need stones from Aeruillin, the Icelands, Nybelmar, and, well, Denilou, unless Yamalquain is actually accessible at this point... :)


Whaddya think?
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« Reply #1 on: 14 June 2008, 21:36:26 »

OOOhh, this could tie in with the question someone asked a couple of weeks ago about navigation equipment.

And you mention the Prominent mountains. The Ironwood tree grows there (and only there), and contains high levels of iron (suprisingly!) which it obtains from the high-level deposits it grows in. These came from the extinct volcano it grows on. That could work. Perhaps, instead of a lodepebble, you could have a piece of Ironwood?
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #2 on: 14 June 2008, 21:44:09 »

Magnetism is a fascinating thing and something where science and mythology collide. It is really a huge thing if you think about it, especially considering a medieval society that notices certain attractions of substances that seem to be influenced by a certain unexplainable power (magic? Gods?). So the fact that for example the cradle of everything existing seems to be at the center of Caelereth in the Thaelon might suggest that there are powers around that region that are beyond explanations. So I guess you're on the right track here - there are vast possibilities, that connect science and faith here, and you can't have anything better than that for gnomish scientifst who try to approach belief more from the scientific side.

This becomes especially apparent to me as a LOST aficionado, because magnetism (or magnetism and something broader related to it) seems to be at the very hard heart of the show. Which plays into a main theme of man of science vs. man of faith and that they come together at some point. Not that it is possible to figure out what the series is eventually about at this point, but the important thing in Santharian terms for me is that magnetism (or an expansion of it) seems to be understood as a cosmic principle of keeping things in balance. That there exists a way of the universe needing to correct its course if you unbalance it, a sort of spiritual magnetism - that communicates with people to correct an inbalance. Magnetism as you have it in Caelereth as the center of the world might be one such expression, but there could be much more to it relating on the spiritual side, like dreams and seer stuff, know what I mean?
« Last Edit: 14 June 2008, 21:46:49 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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« Reply #3 on: 14 June 2008, 21:58:49 »

So we have the concept, and the power, but not necessarily the word. 

 Should we invent one, or would that uproot too many existing entries?  Can it arise from one of the styrash words the magic forum is tossing around?  Could magnetism be considered an aspect, or avatar of Xeua?   

This is fun!

What about 'Ley', from 'ley lines'?  Certain types of seers could be sensitive to 'nodes' and 'lines' of Ley Energy, just as Weavers are to magic....

And compasses in Caelereth then work by 'Ley Energy' and the power of Sympathetic Magic, which is very powerful in the Dream, if you haven't noticed... :D
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« Reply #4 on: 14 June 2008, 22:13:11 »

You know, I was just going to mention ley-lines. There is one supposed to run through our house! Apparently, it is that 'invisible energy' which is responsible for my sense of being watched whenever I go into the kitchen. A friend of a friend of Mrs W's is 'psychic', and she came to the house to see what she could see (our house is nearly 400 years old!), and she told us there was a ley-line running through it. She even showed us on a map.

I don't know why I'm telling you all this, but perhaps you could make some use of the info in there?
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« Reply #5 on: 14 June 2008, 22:19:07 »

Yes, I guess the connection with elven (natural) magic and thus the linking to a Styrásh term and belief is pretty much a logical given. "Ley" sounds interesting, but maybe there are even better Styrásh words that could fit the bill, have to take a look.

BTW: The parallels between the LOST island and the Thaelon are quite striking actually. Both seem to be places that are not necessarily where (and especially when) people think that this place exists, because the place seems to border transcendency. Especially the time thing has been mentioned already in existing entries on the site. Plus there is a very strong connection to the afterlife and/or a godly power that has its source at this place and draws things to it - physically and spiritually, speaking for the dead on behalf of "the isle". The main mysterious messenger of the "isle" seems to be impossible to talk to directly, as he is halfway between realities (as such his bodily existence is only momentarily). This guy might be trapped, while Santharian light-elves seem to have willingly chosen to remain on the other side.
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #6 on: 15 June 2008, 04:53:31 »

Quick note- The Northern Sarvonian town of Tormac would be at about the center of Caelereth.
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« Reply #7 on: 15 June 2008, 08:42:21 »

Actual centre, map centre, known world centre?    There should probably be three 'centre' locations.  The first would exist only for developers ( the map is NOT the shape of the world, so we'd have to extrapolate from a circle placed over it) and would be the true 'magnetic centre', equivalent to 'true magnetic north'.  The second is presumably the one you have provided - thanks for working that out - also only true for developers, and the third would be what Sarvonians believe, based on their system of measurement and the edges of the known world.   That last would make a nice place entry/tourist destination... :)


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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #8 on: 15 June 2008, 08:47:37 »

Actually, i just took the map, and worked out the exact center of the shape we've got... so, I suppose that would be the true magnetic north... I'm not quite sure how we'd do it geographically... we'd have to redraw the map with a new projection style....
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« Reply #9 on: 15 June 2008, 14:30:32 »

I don't know if this will help, but I think, if my memory is correct, that many people think Thaelon is the centre of the world.  It is the rumoured place of the Tree of Life, and so most elves them believe that it is the centre of the world.  Actually, in that entry, I think it says something about scientists researching this and saying that it is somewhere in Savonia.  So I guess this means humans think it is in Sarvonia, and elves think it is Thaelon.

I think the Magnetism idea is brilliant.  From my gnomish view, I think it would tied in well.  Maybe it could help explain some alchemy.  Especially for my plans for the Gremm, or even the Black Gnomes, this could be used in sort of shaman alchemy, however I don't think Azhira wants to go that way with the Black Gnomes.  But that's off topic. :D

Mannix
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #10 on: 15 June 2008, 19:04:15 »

I tried to map it out using Thaelon as the centre.  It's not precise... see below.  I wanted to do one using Tormac, but..um...I couldn't find it on the map (blushes)...

You can see that it's not exactly in the centre - in fact, the map is nowhere near circular, which poses some problems (not for magnetic central, but for the concept that the world is a disc, because Aeruillin is supposed to run right into the Void.  If its bottom edge actually did intersect the circle's exterior, then Yamalquain and Nybelmar would be cut off.  Perhaps it's due to a projection illusion?  Ooops, no, because the world IS flat....

Arrrgh!  Someone else help sort this out!
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #11 on: 15 June 2008, 19:48:04 »

Well, I wouldn't make a problem out of that. The world map is a rough approximation. The world in my eyes was never meant to be an exact round disk, it dives into the Void at its "borders", where you cannot measure anything anyway.

The belief is what counts - that the Thaelon is the heart of the world and thus the magnetic center. Taking into account that deities don't necessarily need to have a proven existence in Caelereth, the magnetic field could be just as weird as the Earthen one, which isn't exactly on the pole either. But the effects definitely can b e felt and measured. And people might have various explanations for it, probably just like medieval scholars. Well, I don't know when it was actually discovered how magnetism works and why, but I assume that a medieval society could very well see it as a wondrous, magical thing.
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« Reply #12 on: 15 June 2008, 21:59:19 »

That solves that issue, but raises another one.

If magnetism works in four different directions as I'm postulating, and the pull becomes stronger, or at least more distinct,  as you move away from the centre, there should be a central area where one can barely navigate.

No, wait!   I'm having an idea here which would solve that, based on triangulation - with the right kind of compass, you can triangulate - indeed, 'quadrulate' your position with only one measurement!  Sound improbable?  Ok, let me think through this....


A Caelerethian compass does not have a single magnetized needle.  Instead it has four 'lodestones' inside a large 'bubble' with an elaborately engraved faceplate.  The compass is shaken and the stones allowed to settle along the faceplate as they will, drawn by the strength or weakness of the 'ley'/'magnetic' lines of the area.

With familiarity, a good compass user can not only determine in what direction she is headed, but indeed WHERE she is on the continent (with a large margin for error, mind you...) based on how far away from the centre the stones lie!

Let me draw a picture to illustrate this - be back in a few minutes.....


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« Reply #13 on: 15 June 2008, 22:29:01 »

Sounds spectacularly fascinating at any rate to me :D  thumbup
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« Reply #14 on: 15 June 2008, 22:43:23 »

Brilliant, Judy! And if one was to look for Tormac, you would find it, a) right at the center ;), only joking, Dear Bard, and b0 just ant the end of the "curve" in N. Sarvonia, about where The "V" in Sarvonia is.
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Wisdom begins in wonder. ~ Socrates

A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
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