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Author Topic: Maritim Currents of Caelereth - a proposal  (Read 12949 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« on: 22 July 2008, 16:51:30 »

Quickly sketched only ! For Judy and the Climate discussion

Totally unscientific!!!!!!  (I'm learning!)



Maritime Currents

(Could be applied to winds as well)



Basically assumption: The hot water in summer around Aeruillin moves towards the North, in winter the cold water from the North presses down to the south - along the coasts of Sarvonia!!!

Summer: Look here


Explanation

 - In summer the continent of Aeruillin heats up and with it the water around it, especially in the middle (the sun shines there a bit more intensely than at the edges)
- This results in a preferred direction of the currents from South to North along the coasts of Sarvonia. (red lines)
Because the water has to go somewhere, I introduced a backflow of cold water along the edges of the disk (blue lines)

- where the both directions meet, swirls/whirls/tornadoes etc occur. (violet lines)

- Permanent icecover --> light blue lines


Consequences (which would explain a lot we have already)

- Sarvonia (and its coasts) have hot, warm currents/winds in summer, the ice even far in the north (e.g. Wicker Islands) melts

- Cyhalloi and Akdor get habitable

- Nybelmar and Yamalquain have a more moderate climate with less temperature differences than Sarvonia (--> see winter), it is cooler there than in Sarvonia due to the cooling northern currents

- Note as well: The west coast of Sarvonia and the western sea have much stronger currents than the sea and coast in the east. (Maybe therefor the Stormcloaks are not too keen to expand their territory into the west ;) )

- Seavoyages to Nybelmar are not easy (as Koldar wished), due to the strong currents directed always to the north (and south in winter) and the maelstroms in the south and north of it.

- The always stormy sea between Sarvonia and Yamalquain may be the cause it is not yet discovered.

--> Small local variations can always be possible, e.g. : The bay east of Aden could be frozen longer  - or thaw earlier due to volcanic activities in the sea..

Winter:

Look here

Explanation


In Winter things are just the other way round:

- Cold water currents (and winds, carrying water) come down the coasts of Sarvonia and the adjacent seas.They bring snow as far as the Narfost plain.

- In turn the warm water of Aeruillin is pushed up in the north along the edge, giving Nybelmar and Yamalquain relatively warm winters (that Nybelmarian Jungle areas)

Consequences

- Even Akdor and the south of Cyllahoi are affected and stay habitable.

- Great parts of the north are frozen, but the ice which is lying over that (now) frozen over water currents (dotted lines) is not as stabile and reliable as in the very north, so in spring and autumn there are some dangerous times, the sea is still frozen, but not necessarily safe enough for longer voyages (crossing the bay etc)

- There are areas with unpredictable water currents/storms/whirls as well (violet)

- The sea southeast of Strata is difficult to sail as well (how?)

- Generally - the west coast looks colder than the east coast, which might be a bit protected from these cold currents/winds due the Kanapan peninsula. The storms would be far stronger in the west . Sanguia might be a bit sheltered by the Ximaxian peninsula, but your Zirghurim will need warm clothes, Judy.


That's the base :)

---> Addition: Of course the flow of water does not stop abruptly, but the currents become weaker at the end of their seasons and I would even introduce a time (4 weeks?), where the currents stop at all till thes start forming again , slowly, but more quickly later. So there will be a good time for seavoyages and a bad time :)

« Last Edit: 22 July 2008, 18:24:02 by Talia Sturmwind » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 22 July 2008, 17:42:36 »

Although its a realy original idea, with no connections to the terran system, it would be a humongous ISSO to do this. The amounts of water involved are incredible, and it would take years, if not decades, for such massive currents to form, flow, stop, en revert. I think it would be more practical to try and come up with a system of permanent currents..
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« Reply #2 on: 22 July 2008, 17:45:57 »

Brilliant - Aeruillin as a thermal mass! 

Best explanation for currents on a disc I can think of... though you haven't mentioned if Silarna / Silarni will come into play or not.   I guess there's a difference between CURRENTS and TIDES that we still have to cover, but as far as I'm concerned this is a simple, logical, more-or-less predictable (thus making trade routes and exploration feasible) system that works to create currents!

I don't much care where the water actually GOES - perhaps the Void serves as an 'edge' which holds it in, perhaps it continues on into the Void in an endless plain as someone suggested, or perhaps Caelereth isn't really a completely flat disc but a slightly cupped one (and gravity pushing downwards helps to hold the water 'on'.      A closed system, such as option one or three, would be more in-line with this recirculating set-up, but it can be developer's viewpoint only.

Eloquent, not overly elaborate, and a great rationale for existing phenomena - what more do we want?


The last little detail I like is that at the centre of the map, from whence civilization spread outwards (the east coast of Sarvonia, in that huge bay whose name I forget) the currents always run 'clockwise' - just another reinforcement for the clock, the power of widdershins, and 'right' = 'good'... :)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #3 on: 22 July 2008, 17:46:09 »

I forgot something, I'll add it above!


@Judy: I did not think the water goes "somewhere", it just circles around Nybelmar and Akdor and Yamalquain and Cyllahoi.
The tides are a daily thing which would add to all. How strong, we need to decide (ISSO). It depend how fast the mon will be compared to the sun. And I found not yet the time to calculate such a stupid table which tells us when the moon will be where at which time of the day. We could make it easy and say, they need the same time to run around their path and the moon rises at the same time as the sun sets and vice versa, but then we have only dark nights when he shows his dark face and no moonless nights . Would be an option as well.

@Mira. Of course it could possibly not happen if we apply earthen physic, but, I did study the weather on earth for several hours and it was just too difficult to apply anything here. Water masses might not move this fast, but who cares?

-->  Hot air rises in Aeruillin, but it is pressed down on (Northern Aeruillin/ the Rahaz.Dath?) because the sphere narrows as it rises and then we mighthave northern winds in summer... I gave up soon.








« Last Edit: 22 July 2008, 17:59:27 by Talia Sturmwind » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 22 July 2008, 18:02:42 »

Nothing wrong with ISSOs, and we could use a bit more fantasy to balance out the recent in-depth science wonks around here!   

I think that if you take the Void into account you can postulate (as a developer) a rationalization that doesn't involve the currents 'stopping' at all.  As for reversing, almost everyone is familiar with the 'rivers that run backward' simply because of the huge tidal bores - and that's just a small-scale version on Terra.     

How about this!   The currents move in a giant figure eight as seen from above, extending out into the Void.  They ALSO move in cross-section, layered.  See the diagram for a possible solution to this!
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« Reply #5 on: 22 July 2008, 18:05:52 »

Talia, that last post was for Mira - but what do you think of the cross-section idea?  Just layer currents that are constantly circulating - then they never have to 'stop' and 'reverse', they simply twist around each other so that in winter the lower ones come to the top and the lower ones sink...

Again, earthen physics don't apply, but why should they?    :)  Your map was brilliant - let's not have such an elegant solution overanalysed...

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #6 on: 22 July 2008, 18:19:32 »

Hmm, this time I'm slow to comprehend how your twisting could work.. That cross section, is it from north to south?

Why do you have to do "8" and not just let is circulate? (It expands a bit out, there should be already the VOID, not the voidshell and there I would not like to see water (as a developer)

Well, now I'm retreating back to the compendiumist view: Currents from north to south in winter and south to north in summer?
I liked the idea of having no currents, for this would stop or hinder sea voyages... a ship caught in a calm...(if we apply it to winds as well)

the whirls or whatever they are called have to reverse their direction as well!


----> From earthen weather I know however, that wind currents OFTEN go with the maritime currents, but sometimes they do not! That could be an idea for a great story as well, or history is changed, because a ship did not arrive in time.. oh, so many ideas!

I have a coffee, more than three hours straight Santharia .. and I would need just half a level to get a riding animal ;)


@ Mira: I need to have a fozen sea in winter between the Icelands coast and the wicker Islands, it has to be open in summer, as well as the bay between the Islands (though the islands themselves are still covered with snow!!!). How could one achieve this with a steady current?
« Last Edit: 22 July 2008, 18:22:45 by Talia Sturmwind » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: 22 July 2008, 18:36:47 »

Oh, the figure 8 is not necessary - it would just explain 'where the water goes' but that can be ignored as a developer's view only.

The layered currents, however, work beautifully in a 'closed system' - while they are twisting you get turmoil (your purple arrows and mine) and yes, ships would not be able to take advantage of the movement during those seasons.  However, they can still  use the wind to travel, as you say.

That would make summer to late summer the 'best' trading season, on both coasts, winter to spring the next (cold, but currents still assist you), and late spring and late fall the least desirable, as at that time the currents are in 'spiral mode' and are reversing.  I love this - it's very uniquely fantasy and will give our traders and merchants a timetable to work with!

We could give those changes general names (like 'tides') and seasonal names (like 'vernal equinox) so that they become part of the calendar and natural rhythms of life.
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« Reply #8 on: 22 July 2008, 21:52:25 »

Mhmmm I like this!

Get this pinned and we can begin determining (roughly) the two 4-week periods when the currents stop, and begin more precise descriptions as to when journey's to Nybelmar, Aeruillin, etc. must be started from Sarvonia, and vice versa. Can begin putting those distances you've figured out to more use.

I confess I was crossing my fingers for the east coast being stormier, but;

Quote
The always stormy sea between Sarvonia and Yamalquain may be the cause it is not yet discovered.

 clap I like always stormy. 

Nice job Talia, looks gooood. :) (I'm gonna go through this carefully later and see if I have anything to add, substract, divide, or er... well you get the idea.)
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« Reply #9 on: 23 July 2008, 01:26:29 »

OOh, techy stuff that I can actually understand!

I shall be keeping a close eye on this discussion, as it may impact on my piracy research.

BTW, Talia's suggestion of a 'dead' area in the sea is already in existance in RL. I forget where it is on the planet, but there is an area where no winds or currents run for a period of time. It is called 'The Doldrums', and is the source of the old saying, 'In the doldrums'.

Right, carry on.
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« Reply #10 on: 23 July 2008, 03:01:50 »

Its not an area, its a time, but there surely are areas as well..
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« Reply #11 on: 23 July 2008, 03:50:17 »

You've got my vote, Talia.
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« Reply #12 on: 23 July 2008, 10:07:48 »

Aaaaand.... here's a possible timetable / calendar based on the seasons, events, and names as we know them so far!   Note that your four-week doldrums fall very nicely in the middle of the two 'Suntides', and that the Couranian names for the months actually suggest them! 

The Spring Doldrum falls in the month of Changing Winds - which also, of course, is now the month of changing currents - either way, ships don't get too far!

The Fall Doldrum takes up the month of Passing Clouds, also known as 'Windwest'.  Since Sarvonian ships mainly want to travel north or south along the coast, 'westerly', or 'cross winds', would be seen as less helpful, even though the doldrums are mostly influenced by the turning of the currents ('The Whorl').


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« Reply #13 on: 23 July 2008, 10:25:00 »

Keep in mind that wind direction is not as simple as 'ships can only go in the direction the wind is pointing'. So a west-angled wind won't stop a ship from sailing north, and for certain ships that kind of wind would be favourable for a north-bound voyage. It depends on the style of the rigging. The winds will be more important for sailing than the currents, though sailing with the current will obviously be faster, but I assume there will be sailing going on throughout the year rather than just the 'good current' months.

You all probably know that, just wanted to mention it just in case, since I've done a bit of research already into sailing. :)

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« Reply #14 on: 23 July 2008, 10:37:01 »

(sigh) Yes, I knew someone would point that out.  I'm very well aware of how winds and sails work.  However, I was merely commenting that from an etymological perspective it's very convenient that the proposed 'doldrums' and their time match up so neatly with names that were assigned years ago.  I doubt, as a Compendiumist, that seafaring folk named the original months (in fact, they obviously were farmers)  so such an 'inaccuracy' is quite appropriate.

Sailing, travel, and trade will go on year-round as best as possible, but certain times are optimal and others less desirable, that's all. 
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