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[Bard Judith]

"The Alkarun (Al-ka-roon) are a tribe of particularly interesting nomads that exist within the naturally somewhat arid plains of the Moredein Tyrath. Primarily, it is the extravagant appearance of these unusual men that associates such great interest with them. Dusty terracotta red paints their skin, making the sandy to dark colours of their hair even bolder. The boldness of the Alkarun visage extends beyond simple coloration, however. The broad but low shoulders of the Alkarun give them a very pragmatic look, their strongly defined facial features and their generally focused demeanour gives them the appearance of a very patient people. Furthermore, they are blessed with unusually long earlobes, something that they pride themselves upon. They are so attached to them, in fact, that they intricately decorate them with small bones and often ridicule foreigners for having such conservative flaps of skin dangling from the sides of their heads."

Apart from the face that this tribe's name is similar to mine, their description intrigues me.  Would you care to provide a bit more detail and perhaps an inspiration picture or two, in the chance of getting an illustration done by yours truly?  (For example, what exactly does 'low shoulders' mean - a long neck, or sloping shoulders?  Do they have full lips?  Eye folds?  Sharp philtrums?  Curly or straight folicles? )

Deci: I'll PM you a comphrensive description sometime soon Judith! This thread is supposed to be for proposals but I appreciate the offer greatly!

[Coren FrozenZephyr]

I finally figured out what was bugging me about the name "The Meelaimad/Hive Men"! It sounds like the name of a very eminent law & economics scholar: A.D. Melamed - as in Guido Calabresi and Dougles Melamed, who expounded on the Coase Theorem in their seminal article, entitled "Property Rules, Liability Rules, and Inalienability: One View of the Cathedral". An article, which, along with others, I have the pleasure of analysing over Easter...

Was this an obscure easter-egg or coincidence?

[Decipher Ziron]

I'm afraid that (even after your wonderful explanation) I still don't know who that man is, so it must be a conincidence...a relatively obscure one, still 

[Deklitch Hardin]

Proposal --> Music School (Cusca), Dance School (Cusca) and Drama/Theatre (Cyras)

(NB: I have PMed Coren about this, and he invited me to post a brief outline on it.)

Quite aside from Santharia, I have been doing study into these three areas of human expression, particularly their history. I began thinking whether there was some kind of outlet in Santharia for them ... on reading about the Zhunite city states, and the specific mention of those three here, I thought that this might be just the place.

Music/Dance Schools
- purpose of them:- bring praise to their gods, competition, enjoyment
- instruments:- lyre, flute, drums, trumpets (?), singing(?)
- dances:- religious, popular, entertainment, competition
- location
- names of teachers/pupils ie teacher is called a ________ and pupils are called _________
- perhaps curriculum examples
- famous musicians/dancers
- maybe an Eistedford type of competition?

Drama/Theatre
- structure/types of dramas
- where performed (open aired theatres) --> Diagram/picture
- how many in it
- famous playrights
- names of playwights/actors/etc
- deus ex machina
- maybe an Eistedford type of competition?

Anyway ... that's my thoughts/ideas at the moment on it.

Dek

Further comments by me are going to be in blue.

DECI: Hey! As one of (if not the) official head of Zhun I'm always pleased to see new ideas being flushed into it. I think the Classical Zhunite Arts are a great place to start!

I think your selection of Cyras and Cusca are shrewd moves and I think they would be best fitting for the ideas you are discussing. If anything, you could develop both of the settlements as artistic hubs, leading for competition between the two? If there is anything Cusca is good at, its annoying the other states.

Oh and a few notes from my side:

- purpose of them:- bring praise to their gods, competition, enjoymen

You say 'praise to their gods', at current I can only think of two actual Zhunite gods (The Dragon Lord 'Seras' and High Goddess of Nature 'Ankriss'....though I'm not sure if she stayed in the pantheon after the whole cataclysm thing [Coren?]). Evocative dance was used by the Krean Priestesses, who could actually cast omnipotent Krean Magic with it, if I remember correctly. I do, however, very much like the religious element. With the natural business of the Zhunites, I had always imagined much of their worship would be proactive e.g. you dont neccesarily sit in a room and prayer to the God of Wine, you just thank him a few moments before drinking yourself into oblivion. If anything, since the Zhunites in my mind are very Greco-Roman, we could expand the pantheon in a similar way to Classical Antiquity, have a specific God of Dance and Music that your artistic fellows can revere?

I was thinking along a similar line to Greco-Roman as well. I was just putting down ideas as they came to me ... all of which are subject to change of course ... and I know that dance/music was important in some/most of the terran religions. I wasn't actually sure how many gods/goddesses that had actually been created for the Zhunites. I was kind of under the impression, for some reason, that they had more gods than that. So ... would I therefore be able to create such things? ie a God/Goddess of Dance and Music?

Coren: Yep, the Zhunites are supposed to have quite a crowded pantheon, rather like the Greek ones. I've only invented one so far (Seras the Dragon Lord) - that's why you couldn't find any others on site The pantheon is headed by Ankriss/Arlea - who were "imported" into Zhunite religion when the Krean expanded into Zhun. All the other Gods are thought to be children of the two main goddesses.

- instruments:- lyre, flute, drums, trumpets (?), singing(?)

I think that could vary from school to school. I see, for instance, Karakanite styles being very drum and trumpet heavy, while Cuscans might prefer lighter string sets. The Zhunites did inherit alot of their culture from either the Anpagans to the East or the Krean to the West, so there is and should be alot of variation in the people and their tastes, which should be reflected in their musics. Though all Zhunites, trying to compare a Cyran to a Hostarian, for example, makes them seem almost alien, so making their music set apart would be the way forward. It also opens to playing field for more competition.

Yep ... so there could be a wider range of instruments than those identified in the "Meet the Zhunites Post" which details the unique features of each city state? Or would it be better to primarily limit them to those instruments?

Coren: Either way is fine with me. The instruments I listed there were what I pictured as the original Zhunite instruments - if you need anything else, you can always attribute that to the Krean influence

- structure/types of dramas

You could go with Comedy/Tragedy/Documentary/Myth set of genres.  I'm (somewhat) in the process of writing a Marmarran Tragedy, though its in a novel format, and though the other Zhunite actors probably wouldnt want to perform it, Its always a good starting point if you can reference actual texts that have been dramatised.

Just dont touch Operas! I'm saving those for the Tiquaitan!

Your wish is my command! I was thinking along the lines of structure as in them having three or four or five parts and that each part basically is called something specific ... and possibly even that if it is a comedy, it should have certain characteristics, which are different to trageies/documentaries/myths.

- deux ex machina

Whats that?

Gahh ... I spelled it incorrectly, it should have been deus ex machina (lit. God of the machine)... but basically they were simple machines used by the Ancient Greeks to do things like lift the actors if they had to be gods. Since then it has become a device used in plays/books/movies to bring a convoluted story line to a conclusion, in a way that doesn't really make sense eg a Detective happening to find the exact person who can help him solve a mystery ... and other such things.

Or a hero facing death for a crime he didn't commit, and while his friends attempt to prove it, they are unsuccessful, and suddenly the real perpetuator steps out at the last minute, or the thing that'll save the queen from death is found amazingly and unexpectedly ... basically it destroys the suspension of belief that stories such as these aim for. A different way of saying it would be 'out of the blue'. Dream sequences ie 'he woke up and it was all a dream' is another version of it. The version I'd be thinking of would be the original meaning of it.

[Coren FrozenZephyr]

Hi! Just to let you know I'll read through this later tonight or tomorrow!

EDIT: OK, see my comments in the original post

[Decipher Ziron]

This does prompt me to want to sketch up a Zhunite Pantheon...Any objections?

Coren: Well I can always shoot down the things I don't like as we go along, so if you want to come up with a rough draft go for it! Let's make it an "open-ended" pantheon, so we can add other deities later on

[Fox]

Proposal - Kayrrhem Revision

Concepts and Overall Plan


In bullet points:


1) I want to expand on the ‘High Elf’ nickname. We have many traditional ‘Wood Elves’, who live in tree cities and are very casual and nature-focused. I’m looking to make the Kayrrhem more of the ‘lordly’ and noble elf, with grand cities and civilization. Still tied to nature as are all elves, but on the upper scale of it rather than the ‘neutral’ scale (as most Wood Elves), or the lower scale (of the various low-tech wandering elven tribes).

2) Grand cities are still entwined by nature. Is supported by them already being heavily craft-oriented, so their cities are a work of art. Not to say that traditional elven cities aren’t, but the Kayrrhem ones would be more regal, more stone and metal and flourish. “The perfection of balance and order is one of their greatest goals and they proved great in building vast cities with incredible buildings of stone interwoven with the forest in a way that does not make one feel wandering through cold stone streets but flourishing gardens.“

3) Expand on their role as hunters of evil in the past. “... and their determination in fighting the dark servants of Coór whenever and wherever they might raise.“ Other elves tend to stick to their forests and become one with the world and only coming out to defend it when there is an evil that threatens that existence. Not only that, but ties into the above lordly concept. They aren’t just protectors, but see themselves above other races. Note that this will not be against elven principles, like dark elven superiority complexes, but rather should be more of a ‘good arrogance’. They see other races, like humans, as beloved pets—not their equal, but loved in their own way, and something that needs their guidance and protection to thrive.

However--they have, ever since the Third Shadow Realm war, become much more isolated, and much less 'protective'. Some want to expand more and take up this path again. Others want to remain isolated, protecting only their own forests. Right now, the isolated remnants are in the majority.

4) Stress ‘Protectors’. They don’t conquer, and they aren’t looking to expand territory. They do not mind if other races hold the territory, but they are dedicated to supporting and guiding their allies, even if they remain distant. Are fierce opponents of the Coor’hem, their once kin, and they keep the Coor’hem’s ambition over other nations in check.

5) Despite this (or because of), their close ties to the Korweynites mean that they are a bit more ‘human’ in culture than other elves. High chance of mingling between the two cultures in the past means that there is a large chance of bloodlines  that have some diluted human blood from relationships long in the past. Light Elven blood is all but gone in modern times. Though after the Third Shadow Realm war they retreated inwards, they have begun reaching outwards to the Korweynites again over the last several hundred years. However, some members of the tribe are against this mingling, and want to stick to the tribe’s ancient hidden roots. This has caused a rift (the southern settlements of the Urná'rhem (Hill Elves) (the ones who have not yet entirely joined the Korweynites) want to mingle, the more northern settlements don’t).

6) Their aloofness, and human elements, and divisiveness, leads directly into the creation of the Iferhem and Coorhem, and the Hill Elves. It is that tragic flaw in their society that breeds such divisions, because it encourages some to become overly prideful and self-possessive. I want a noble but flawed tribe here.

7) Their goddess, Yvan, will be a slightly altered version of Ava. Not a new goddess. They come from the same roots and have Light Elven qualities, so they can’t be too far from the Avarian religion, even though they are in Nybelmar. Essentially, Yvan is more a 'feeling' than a goddess. Yvan is in everything, and she is worshiped simply by the very nature of living and expressing her in everything.

8) They will worship Yvan first, but will also have (similarly altered) versions of the Twelve. These are more 'parts of Yvan' than separate gods. Sort of a 'Holy Trinity' kind of feeling, where despite being multiple 'gods', they are all the same 'god'.

9) Powerful magic, but civilized. Not as druidic as other elves, more ancient and regal. Probably a heavily runic system, maybe requires focuses (but not reagents) to cast. Is delicately interweaved in all aspects of society though—magic is as much a part of them as nature (but, key difference for them: magic is NOT nature). It is a balance between the natural (nature), the unnatural (magic), and the link between them (civilization). Their magic is not as harmonious with nature as other elves—in fact it deliberately isn’t, because they believe that they are the caretakers of nature, and that they can still be one with nature despite wielding the unnatural. They see themselves as above nature, closer to the Dream and thus “allowed” to shape nature to make it more beautiful. They are wrong.

In ancient times, the magic was much more prominent—not so much anymore. Mages are a respected, but dwindling group in Kayr society. Some blame the loss of light elven blood of the centuries.

10) Note the differences: Wood Elves are a “part” of nature. Humans are “apart” from nature. But the Kayr believe they are a part of nature, yet also apart from it. They think, erroneously, that they can be both. Wood Elves want to be at one with nature, Humans want to dominate nature. The Kayr believe they *already* dominate, and deserve to dominate, nature. Wood Elves are Harmony, Humans are Ambition, and High Elves are Pride.

11) They are a faltering society. Main thematic element should be the slow decay of an age gone past, the cost of Pride. They are losing their light elven ties, they are losing their elven culture to human influences, they are losing their territory and land to divisions, and they are losing their magic. They still put up a lordly face (in fact their grand cities are a deliberate attempt at proving they are still ‘kingly’), and are still High Elves and respected by the Korweyn, but in truth they are afraid. They are in their twilight.

12) To elaborate on the why’s: Their light elven roots cause them to feel superior to other elves and races, so they have developed issues of self-esteem and self-worth that do not plague Wood Elves. This is the lesson of Fa’av’cal’ar. The Kayrrhem never joined Fa’av’cal’ar, and never learned that lesson, like the other Wood Elves did. Though they hid away, and pretended to be the very best of the elven race outside of the Astyrhim, they in fact were only reaching at something that they truly were not, and this is only now just becoming apparent to them. They are just now having to learn the humility that the Fa’av’cal’ar elves learned millenia ago. They thought they could hide from Fa’av’cal’ar, and that their path was greater, but it has caught up with them.


Coren: Sounds good to me! No objections from my end

Miraran: I'm with Coren here

Deci: Nothing to contest, Go ahead Fox!

[Rakshiri]

Hello, just snooping around but wanted to say that most of your points concerning the Kayr are points I wanted them to go as well essepcially with the division of their tribe and their goals and agendas. I kinda envisioned their cities to be like overgrown Maya cities nearly completely overgrown by plantlife with the difference being that the growth is tended to in such a way that the cities and their stone palaces remain fully functional.

It is probably important to note that given Nybelmar's distant past the Kayrrhém were already at an early age intermingled with more down to Earth woodelves (who however thrived and adopted their culture) given that their forests were some of the last refugees on the continent at the War of the Chosen. The rifts partly stem fromt this ethnic divide of immortal / near immortal lightelves and more common "less pure" grayelves so to speak. The lightelves would always have been more isolationists but left this behind till the Second Shadow War and the break up of the nation which absorbed all their other resources (thus the Korweynites seemingly taking over as the idealistic power), the grayelves would be more pragmatic and the natural social structure would make the more longliving elves be on top as mentors and advisors while the shorter lived ones were lower in the structure.

Concerning magic I guess they would "instinctively" add magic to all their works though it thus would have often just some subtle effect (harder steel, finer sculptures, nicer clothes, more shiny jewlry)


I would suggest to check out the Korweynite Aseya faith which is based on an "Avarian" world order where the Korweynites think they are meant to fulfill the dream through their actions. Overall they interpret things from a philosophical / intellectual point first, nature and its forces second (can be seen their choice of gods which are all more or less gods of concepts, not natural forces like the Twelve). They got to get such ideas from someone so if some relationship could be established between the two it would be great (though the humans can obviously get it wrong)!

They see themselves as above nature, closer to the Dream and thus “allowed” to shape nature to make it more beautiful. They are wrong.

Why should they be wrong? It's their interpretation of their role in the world and they are supposed to be among the longestliving and oldest elven tribes aside of the Astyrhim. It is intentionally hinted that they lived separately from them because they didn't believe in what the Astyrhim believed. The difference and trouble for them compared to the Astyrhim is that they got involved into the everyday affairs of the world and thus are bound to have more conflict about how to do things the right way.

I wouldn't forgo the possibility that they are wrong but I would not think of it as a negative aspect. Virtually everyone has preconceptions and define themselves via certain worldviews. The idea of the twelve is pretty strange to most in Nybelmar. They certainly do not perceive Santharia as the morale center of the world etc.


Just some food for thought, have fun!

[Coren FrozenZephyr]

Re additions to the Gondolwenmith:

A bit of a wild idea: What if all Gondolwain are identical triplets? That is: What if every time the Gondolwain have children, they always give birth to identical triplets?

This idea came about mainly from two things: (i) a random MSN conversation I had with Mira yesterday. (ii) I was revising the Krean Magic entry (Oh Gods! Again!?) and this spawned a sub-entry on the Krean interpretation of conception (yeah, I know, bad pun). The Krean view conception as a three-way act - ok, that did not come out right. What I meant was: Essentially they see conception as a co-creative act not just between the parents, but between the father, the mother, and the spirit that is going to birth/incarnate into the new baby body. So, according to the Krean, the new baby body is not created by some mysterious process between the parents alone; the spirit of the child makes an active contribution too - flowing from the First Wave into the womb as it were, to fill the new body with life.

I would also need to have some other Nybelmarian tribe attribute the Gondolwain's individualistic culture to this? Deci, can I have the Tarshiinites say that the Gondolwenmith obsession with individuality and the rights/freedoms of the individual emerged as a response to this biological phenomenon? That they developed a culture which revolves around the individual because they spend all their lives trying to distinguish themselves from the other two twins who look exactly like them? 

PS: I espy a new Shabakuk 'affliction of the mind' on the horizon!

What do you guys think?

Mira; Nybelmar sense.... tingling... Coren must be making.. horrible, horrible puns..

Old Man Coren: Oh hush! You nasty little child... More importantly, what say you regarding the idea? Like it / hate it? Any objections?

DECI: I like the idea, and you can quote Tarshiinites, but I they do have naming conventions so you cant just make anyone up! Maybe a naval officer, intent on proving himself, made a mistake out of hubris and the Jartan replied with something like 'Their brothers make them too concerned with heroism'. To add a contrast, you could say the Tarshiinites only ever have single-child births...making the Tarshiinites think there is something 'flawed' in this constant triplicity.

Mira: Well, i love it, of course. the possibilities for funky social systems are just about limitless!

Coren: @mira: Ah, the insolence! Crossed that irreverent comment off - hasn't any told you not to pin notes on people's backs?

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