Welcome
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
Did you miss your
activation email?
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Notifications & Notes
Dreamer's Code
Bellring a Member
Report Mistakes/Typos
Report Easter Eggs
Masterplans/Projects
About Masterplans
Santhworld: Program
SW.: Game Designer
SW.: Treasure Shoals
SW.: Lorehold
SW.: Nepris
SW.: Trivia
Santharia: Manthria
Nybelmar: Zhunite Pl.
Sarvonia: Icelands
Dev Maps
World Map Overview
Distances in Caelereth
Climate Map of Sarvonia
Continent: Aeruillin
Continent: Akdor
Continent: Cyhalloi
Continent: Nybelmar
Continent: +Details NE
Continent: +Details NW
Continent: +Details SE
Continent: +Details SW
Continent: +Politics
Continent: Sarvonia
Lands: Icelands
Lands: +Tribes
Lands: Caael'heroth
Lands: Iol Peninsula
Lands: Kanapans
Lands: Kuglim Lands
Kingdom: Santharia
Kingdom: +Ancient
Kingdom: +Provinces
Kingdom: +Rivers
Kingdom: +Routes
Details: Manthria
Details: Vardýnn
Details: Ráhaz-Dáth
Details: Silvermarshes
Entry Templates
Create Beasts
Create Plants
Create Races/Tribes
Create People
People Nomenclature
Create Places
Create Gods, Myths...
Create Spells/Magic
Create Library Entries
Create Misc. Stuff
Picture Resources
Reserving Resources
Arbaon Pictures
Bard Judith Pictures
Eratin Pictures
Faugar Pictures
Grunok's Pictures
Ingeborg Pictures
Isilhir Pictures
Koldar Pictures
Linda Tso Pictures
Quellion Pictures
Quellion Pictures II
Shayan's Pictures
Seeker Pictures
Sheil Pictures
Sheil Pictures II
Language Additions
Proverbs & Sayings
Styrásh (Elvish)
Thergerim (Dwarvish)
Kuglimz'Seitre
Kh'omchr'om (Orcish)
Trollish
Santharian Development
 
Forum
 
Santharian World Development
 
Magic in the Lands of Caelereth
(Moderators:
Fox
,
Mina
,
Drasil Razorfang
)  
An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Pages: [
1
]
2
Author
Topic: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall (Read 13398 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 157
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3.357
An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
on:
13 June 2009, 06:38:47 »
May I present the present incarnation of the thread formerly known as
"A BRIEF Exposition of Coren's Thoughts on Magic"
?
It is supposed to be a transcription of one of Frozenzephyr's lectures at the Academy of Ximax. The aim is to introduce newcomers to Ximaxian theory. I tried to keep it in plain Tharian, with lots of tables and diagrams to ease its absorption. Hopefully it will be accessible for developers who know very little about ximaxian magic. I think this marks - or rather consolidates, given my latest entries - a new Corenic Era of Simplicity!
I would appreciate if one of our general developers (such as Talia or Bard Judith) - in addition to our resident magic experts - could give the text a quick read-through. I want your honest opinion on whether the text is comprehendible for people not well-versed in ximaxian magic.
Hope you like it! After three years of procrastination, I've finally summarised that lengthy discussion into a format that can be uploaded to the site!
PS: I removed the earlier drafts and
attached the final version as a Word document under this post
.
«
Last Edit: 27 June 2009, 16:25:42 by Coren FrozenZephyr
»
Logged
"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein
Development Schedule
"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (
Making Money
by Terry Pratchett)
Drasil Razorfang
Moderator
Gained Aura: 47
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2.034
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
«
Reply #1 on:
13 June 2009, 08:25:39 »
I like it so far except for the definition of carallia. I am pretty sure what you define is not possible. Car'all as I was taught, is one large, fluid entity, not a sum of a series of smaller parts. Every object has its own car'all, but that aura smoothly flows into that of the air around it, ect. As such, I don't think such quantification can occur. We can say every object has a car'all that creates it, but I don't believe it is possible to define where that of one object begins and another ends...
Logged
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 157
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3.357
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
«
Reply #2 on:
13 June 2009, 16:21:01 »
I don't think I said anything contradicting that. I believe I already mentioned that concepts like ounia and individual carallia are simplifications/metaphors we use to teach a mage what he has to do to cast a given spell. Now a universal aura flowing in a continuious stream from one object to another, with each entity representing a node or concentration in that unified field, might work well enough for elves but I think human mages need something a little bit more specific to use as a mental peg. I mean how can you teach someone how to move ounia from one carall to another if he has no idea where one carall roughly ends and another begins - even if he cannot exactly pinpoint the line separating the two?
I'll make that more explicit. Thanks Drasil
Also, when you critique something always make sure that you enunciate the issue clearly and identify the sections of the text to which you are referring. "except for the definition of carallia" doesn't really tell me much, given that there are two whole pages describing the various aspects of the carall. Then I can't tell what is confusing/what needs to be changed.
Logged
"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein
Development Schedule
"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (
Making Money
by Terry Pratchett)
Drasil Razorfang
Moderator
Gained Aura: 47
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2.034
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
«
Reply #3 on:
13 June 2009, 23:54:12 »
Ah. Well in this particular instance I was refering to here:
Quote
Individual entities are also said to have carallia (plural for carall), referring to their individual aura or carall through which they manifest in physical form. Hopefully the meaning will be apparent from the context
and here:
Quote
If thinking of carallia as interconnected puzzles helps you conceptualise how Ximaxian magic works
Logged
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 157
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3.357
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
«
Reply #4 on:
14 June 2009, 04:55:26 »
Added a few more sections, addressed Drasil's question, and updated the Word file above accordingly. Also added a number of other tables and diagrams. I've reworded the original to resemble a lecture format. So this entry is supposed to be a transcription of one of FrozenZephyr's lectures in the Academy of Ximax. I should be able to finish the rest tomorrow. I hope you enjoy the entry - let me know what you think!
Logged
"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein
Development Schedule
"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (
Making Money
by Terry Pratchett)
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 157
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3.357
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #5 on:
15 June 2009, 02:27:35 »
Finished! Hurray! I am a free man now!
Comments welcome
(Final version attached under the first post of the thread)
«
Last Edit: 15 June 2009, 02:43:34 by Coren FrozenZephyr
»
Logged
"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein
Development Schedule
"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (
Making Money
by Terry Pratchett)
Drasil Razorfang
Moderator
Gained Aura: 47
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2.034
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #6 on:
15 June 2009, 02:44:54 »
I've read through the whole thing and I like it. I am glad you took out the examples about the different Spheres since I didn't really agree with your metaphors there. The only thing I am really concerned about is that it is described, Ecua and Xeua are so interdependent that it seems that niether are able to create a full effect independently. It seems to be that either the two schools need to be fused or their differences(as in what a Xeua mage would be able to accomplish vs what an Ecua mage would be able to) need to be more clearly elaborated.
Edit: The above might of been a bit confusing. It is a fact that Xeua mages re-create links while Ecua mages destroy them, but in the example you have given you make it seems as though to create a finished product you first need to destroy and then you need to re-create. In this model, niether school would be able to function independently, which can be problematic.
Also, I think the chart showing Idea, car'all, Form, Content, Structure, Substance is a bit confusing. The way you have described it, Form dictates Strucutre(part of Content) which dictates Substance. Rather then putting Content(which as it is described, is subject to Form) on the same level as Form, at least to me, it would make more logical sense to put it underneath it and then to place Structure under Content and Substance under Structure and finally Physical entity on the bottom. It would make the table appear more logical and easier to understand even though you risk visually losing the idea of the "hierarchy" as you have it. Another way to deal with the problem would be to put in two charts, leaving one the way you have it to show the "Hierarchy" in concept and having another to show how the different tiers affect each other in actuality.
«
Last Edit: 15 June 2009, 02:47:33 by Drasil Razorfang
»
Logged
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 157
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3.357
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #7 on:
15 June 2009, 03:21:03 »
- At the risk of sounding haughty, I am going to quote a section of the text back at you: Examples are useful only to the extent they help us conceptualise the abstract theory; we should not allow analogies to become our masters. This is not a dissertation on the finer points of Xeua and Ecua, or the differences between the two. I used the metaphor of the pink pants to compare the archschools with raw magic. In light of that purpose, it would have been confusing to spell out the technical aspects of link-making and breaking. At any rate, I cannot summarise something that has not been written in the first place!
To answer your question: I think Rayne had come up with a theory of inertia to explain how the two schools could function independently of one another. The idea is that a Xeuatan can achieve effects that would normally be obtained by link-breaking due to the natural inertia of a carall: When you create or strengthen certain links in certain places, that weakens other links in another part of the carall. The converse is true for Ecua.
This is supposed to be one of the very first lectures novices encounter at the Academy. Should we really assault them with the complex theories on how Xeua, which is based on link-making, can achieve effects that require some links to be severed, without actually using direct link-breaking? I think there is a reason Ximaxian mages cannot even begin to study Xeua/Ecua and switch over to the Archschools until he reaches a high level in one of the Elemental schools.
The person you really want is Rayne!
She's the one who knows about all this Xeua and Ecua business
- Re the composition of the Carall chart: I disagree. Two issues:
(i) "The way you have described it, Form dictates Strucutre(part of Content)
which dictates Substance
" That last part is not correct. Structure does NOT dictate Substance. Substance is the material, the ounia that's there; Structure merely describes the way in which that Substance happens to be arranged. You cannot change the Substance of a carall by changing its Structure: Modifying links and moving ounia around may change which qualities are expressed and their intensity, but it will not suddenly convert water ounia into wind ounia. That is why the two are interconnected aspects of the Carall's Content. There is no hierarchy between Substance and Structure. One cannot exist without the other; they exist in relation to one another; the fact that one exists implies the existence of the other.
(ii) The Carall has two faces: a Form and a Content. Form and Content are not like Structure and Substance, in that Content presupposes a Form. So in one sense, Form must have come first. The reason I did not list them one under the other is because that would imply that there are two subsequent stages a carall passes through. Instead, Form and Content are two aspects of the same carall which exist simulatenously.
Does that clarify the matter somewhat?
PS: +1 Aura to Drasil for his perseverance and meticulousness in commenting on this entry. Much appreciated!
Logged
"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein
Development Schedule
"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (
Making Money
by Terry Pratchett)
Drasil Razorfang
Moderator
Gained Aura: 47
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2.034
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #8 on:
15 June 2009, 04:11:16 »
First issue: Meh...I still am going to argue the two ought to be fused next time I see her. But until then I shall just live with it
Second Issue: It makes more sense, though I always have been fuzzy on the concept behind Form. The chart confusion is probably just a physical manifestation of that inability to understand it(the concept of Form).
«
Last Edit: 15 June 2009, 04:18:11 by Drasil Razorfang
»
Logged
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 157
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3.357
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #9 on:
15 June 2009, 04:16:06 »
Think of Form as the blueprint, the pattern.
EDIT: And do the homework at the end of the entry ;P
Logged
"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein
Development Schedule
"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (
Making Money
by Terry Pratchett)
Mina
Moderator
Gained Aura: 63
Offline
Posts: 2.833
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #10 on:
15 June 2009, 23:21:56 »
I was feeling a bit lost until I realised what you call Idea is what I've been calling Form, and what you call Form is what I've been calling Pattern.
I'm liking it so far, but I'm not feeling very well at the moment and I'm not sure if I could finish reading it, so I think I'll wait till tomorrow or so before actually commenting.
Logged
~~
Development Schedule & Notes
•
Santharian Timeline Draft
~~
Coren FrozenZephyr
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 157
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3.357
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #11 on:
15 June 2009, 23:58:15 »
No worries! I hope you get better soon!
Logged
"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein
Development Schedule
"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (
Making Money
by Terry Pratchett)
Mina
Moderator
Gained Aura: 63
Offline
Posts: 2.833
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #12 on:
17 June 2009, 14:09:00 »
Finally finished reading.
Let's see...
You have "THE CARALL" representing a different concept from "the Carall". This isn't a problem in writing, but how would they be distinguished in speech? There is the term "Universal Carall", but it's stated in the entry as being a Human term, so there's still the problem of how the Elves refer to it in speech. (BTW, isn't it spelled Car'all, or was the spelling changed while I was away?)
Similarly, what do the parts in brackets represent? Some look like they could be part of the lecture itself, but others seem more like they were added later by the transcriber/editor to clarify certain things.
Quote
Reader be warned.
That sounds like an odd thing to say in a lecture.
The entry goes quite a bit into what ounia are, but what about xeua links? Or maybe that's reserved for more advanced students?
Should there be a section on the Weavers at all? The original concept was a group of mages so secretive that no one outside of their order knows about them. Later I think Rayne reworked them into mythical beings. Neither seem to be the sort of thing that would fit into a such a lecture.
Well, I think that's more or less it as far as the entry concerned. Nothing major.
I have a couple of somewhat related questions though.
1. Are there actually any Raw mages, or people believed to be Raw mages, or is it something predicted by Ximaxian theories but not yet proven?
2. Am I right to say that not all of the Universal Car'all is qualified, and that Raw mages may unqualify or qualify energy in order to create their effects?
Hmm...homework?
Quote from: Mina's Answers (highlight to read)
Sand particles
Ounia
Sand-castle
Individual Aura
Act of building the sand-castle
Spellcasting
Sand
Substance
Beach
Universal aura
Castle conept
Idea
Shape of sand-castle
Structure
Mould for sand-castle
Form
Sand-castle with mould
Individual Aura
Logged
~~
Development Schedule & Notes
•
Santharian Timeline Draft
~~
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
Gained Aura: 143
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 11.639
Shendar, Shen-D'auras
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #13 on:
17 June 2009, 16:31:12 »
I had a very brief look at it, and the "lecture type" looks great. That does not mean, that the content is easier. If you want to have a more thorough check, sentence by sentence (and me understanding it finally), I need more time (two or three weeks). For it needs some thorough thinking through and at some points I'm at the limit of my English understanding. However, with some re-formulation of some sentences it might be fit afterwards for simpler minds to understand it
.
Logged
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***
Astropicture of the Day
***
Talia's Long, Long List
***
Drasil Razorfang
Moderator
Gained Aura: 47
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2.034
Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
«
Reply #14 on:
18 June 2009, 07:24:33 »
Suggested answer to Mina's question:
How about you change it up so that
The Car'all(always spoken with the article in front of it and written with a capitalized T and C) i= THE CAR'ALL in your current draft
and simply
car'all = the car'all(Always written and spoken in all lower case without an article and if one is gramatically needed[which should be rare] use a [also lowercase]
Logged
Pages: [
1
]
2
Santharian Development
 
Forum
 
Santharian World Development
 
Magic in the Lands of Caelereth
(Moderators:
Fox
,
Mina
,
Drasil Razorfang
)  
An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
Organization and General Discussions
-----------------------------
=> Santharian Site Administration
===> Announcements and Web Design
===> Santharian Team Projects
=====> Active Projects
=====> Completed Projects
=====> Project Proposals
===> Organizational Schedules
===> Development Master Plans
===> Bell-Ringing - Notifications to Developers
=> Newbie Information, Joining Requests and Recruitment
=> Discussions, Development Ideas & Proposals
===> General Santharian Discussions
===> Continent Specific Discussions
=====> The Southern Sarvonian Continent
=====> The Northern Sarvonian Continent
=====> The Continent of Aeruillin
=====> The Continent of Nybelmar
=> Non-Santharian Stuff: Life, the Universe & Everything
-----------------------------
Santharian World Development
-----------------------------
=> Santharian Artists Workshop and Resources
=> The Santharian Bestiary
=> The Santharian Herbarium
=> Races, Tribes and Clans
===> Brownie Development
=> People of the World of Caelereth
=> Places and Map Design
=> History of Caelereth
=> Cosmology, Myths and Religions
=> Magic in the Lands of Caelereth
=> Languages and Runes
=> The Santharian Library
=> Miscellaneous
-----------------------------
Santharian Game Projects
-----------------------------
=> General Game Discussions & Newbie Area
=> RPG Development Scheduling
=> Maps, Dialogues & Room Descriptions
=> RPG Adventure Programming
Help, I'm a Newbie!
About this Board
Dev Introduction
Developer's 1x1
Technical Forum Stuff
Advanced Forum Help
Testing Thread
Where's the game?
Search
Advanced search
Recent
Winter's Flame candle
by
lolanixon
[27 March 2019, 00:01:57]
WANTED: Beta readers / comic fantasy
by
Artimidor Federkiel
[21 June 2018, 14:28:00]
Gollum Pic
by
Erutan Argon
[31 May 2017, 06:35:55]
Islands of Doranthakar, Southern Sarvonia
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[06 May 2017, 05:27:04]
Am I too late?
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[03 April 2017, 01:15:03]
Centaur Picture
by
Noksz
[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]
The Guilds & Orders of New-Santhala
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[15 March 2017, 02:23:07]
The History of New-Santhala
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[15 March 2017, 02:20:28]
The Districts of New-Santhala
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]
New-Santhala, Sangui Province, Southern Sarvonia
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[14 March 2017, 20:23:43]
The High Fores picture
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]
The High Fores, Vardynn Province, Southern Santharia
by
Seeker
[31 January 2017, 08:45:52]
The Black Flame
by
landon
[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]
Tales of Monsonius: That Fiend of Mine
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]
Site Update 10-10-2016
by
Felsid Greytunnel
[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]
The Santhran Lysmarin Hammerfeld
by
Artimidor Federkiel
[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]
Armelite
by
Artimidor Federkiel
[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]
Blazebushel Moss
by
Artimidor Federkiel
[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]
Lightmoss
by
Artimidor Federkiel
[11 September 2016, 22:58:56]
Search feature troubles
by
Artimidor Federkiel
[03 September 2016, 22:22:23]
Stats
Members
Total Members: 1019
Latest:
lolanixon
Stats
Total Posts: 144590
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 33
Online Ever: 700
(23 January 2020, 20:05:39)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 25
Total: 25