Ava'reollár

Rayne (Alýr)

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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #15 on: 25 January 2010, 02:24:50 »

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"Accent" and "emphasis" are essentially equivalent. They both refer to the part of the word that is pronounced more dominantly than the other parts. You’re missing my main point, I think: every word has an accent/emphasis/stress somewhere, both in linguistics and in poetry. That’s an irrefutable fact. There’s always a part of the word that’s a little more prominent than the rest.

Uh. That's not really true, actually. Like I said, it depends on the context the word is in. For linguists, articles and propositions always have emphasis. This is not the case in poetry. Articles are almost never stressed. Look back at the examples with the language of elves--notice how you stressed it and how I stressed it. I was scanning it, putting stress over the parts where there was poetic stress. You did this in the linguistic sense, where stress falls on every word.

Again, as I said before, I think it's an issue of word-level verses syntax-level stress. If stress was judged in linguistics the way it's judged in poetry, Shakespeare would not have been able to write sonnets! For example, where do the LINGUISTIC stresses fall in the line, "Those hours that with gentle work did frame/ The lovely gaze where every eye doth dwell/ Will play the tyrants to the very same/ And that unfair which fairly doth excel..."

If every word has emphasis somewhere in it, what you have is NOT iambic pentameter. Therefore, we must be working from different definitions of "stress." This was my point.


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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #16 on: 25 January 2010, 03:52:24 »

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Uh. That's not really true, actually. Like I said, it depends on the context the word is in.

I wouldn't say word-level stress is non-existent in poetry, just not really relevant, I think. And unstressed word (sentence-level) can still have stressed syllables (word-level) and vice versa; it's just doesn't always matter, depending on what you are doing.

I don't really get what this argument is about. How does whether each type of stress exist/is relevant affect the entry?


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Falethas Whisperwind

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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #17 on: 25 January 2010, 04:04:48 »

We’re nitpicking minutiae now, haha.

I love debates with substance like this, Rayne.

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This is not the case in poetry. Articles are almost never stressed.

I never said that articles are stressed, simply that they have stress. It’s a characteristic every word displays (much like having a vocalic sound), regardless of the amount of syllables present. The stress in a word like "an" automatically falls, of course, on the sole syllable it possesses because there’s nowhere else for it to go. Articles in poetry still have stress; they’re still words. They just might not be stressed, as you said.

Quote

For example, where do the LINGUISTIC stresses fall in the line, "Those hours that with gentle work did frame/ The lovely gaze where every eye doth dwell/ Will play the tyrants to the very same/ And that unfair which fairly doth excel..."

Thóse hóurs thát wíth géntle wórk díd fráme
Thé lóvely gáze whére év’ry éye dóth dwéll
Wíll pláy thé týrants tó thé véry sáme
Ánd thát unfáir whích fáirly dóth excél...

Quote

If every word has emphasis somewhere in it, what you have is NOT iambic pentameter.

But every word does have stress somewhere in it, and it can still be iambic pentameter.

Mina hit the nail right on the head.

I just remembered the term I’ve been scraping my brain for since this discussion started: prosody. Wikipedia does an excellent job of summing it up in accessible terms; you should have a look at it. Interesting read.

Mina’s also right about this discussion, haha...we’re neglecting the tree. I’m done!

:flees from Mina’s undoubtedly imminent fireball of chastisement:


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Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
"The rain whispers down through the trees; elvish music will rise in answer."

Rayne (Alýr)

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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #18 on: 25 January 2010, 04:31:41 »

Ah! I'm sorry. I don't mean to nitpick. Really, this discussion is for my own benefit, not for the entry. I'm just trying to understand. But like you said, it's minutiae. I still don't understand the concept of accent or prosody in the linguistic sense, undecided

but I really don't want to bother anyone, or make people try to explain things they don't want to explain. Based on the tone, this seems to be the case. I apologize. noidea

Does the entry look all right to you now, Fel?


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Falethas Whisperwind

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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #19 on: 25 January 2010, 04:36:45 »

You’ve just gotta change yó to foár in the poem, and then it’s good to go linguistically, yep.


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Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
"The rain whispers down through the trees; elvish music will rise in answer."

Rayne (Alýr)

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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #20 on: 25 January 2010, 04:53:35 »

Done. Thank you, Fel!


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Azhira Styralias

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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #21 on: 01 March 2010, 21:53:17 »

I'm going on record and saying that this entry looks good enough for integration.

*pokes Mira with a cattle prod to wake him up*


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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #22 on: 01 March 2010, 22:21:27 »

One tiny thing:

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Ava’reollár (Avá’s gift) trees are notably the largest trees on Caelereth

Rayne, could you please change this along the lines of ".. notably among the largest trees on Caelereth"? We always advise newcomers not to write in absolutes - whenever we say something is the largest/smallest etc of its kind, that restricts future development


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Artimidor Federkiel

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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #23 on: 23 March 2010, 23:53:07 »

Haven't checked this before, but tried to look for things to integrate this weekend, and there's definitely a misconception in this one:

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In the beginning of the Dream, following the creation of the elves, it is said Avá created the Ava’reollár tree to house her children, providing a home that not only gave them shelter from the storm and protection from creatures of shadow, but also served as a close link to the natural world.

Avá definitely didn't "create" trees to house her children. Avá is an entirely passive Goddess and she dreams the Gods and the Elements, where the Gods are the active ones and the elements are passive, being shaped by the Gods. Even the tree of life is a passive "creation", which came into existence as an elemental manifestation if you so want. Avá never creates anything for "her Children", she has no direct influence in her Dream whatsoever.


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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #24 on: 24 March 2010, 00:56:01 »

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most all elves live in Ava’reollár trees, though they may decorate and utilize them in different ways

Do we need to say "most". There are already entries that describe elves living in Urban trees (the ria for example) or other trees like in the Elving entry. If we say "most" we will need to change other entries to reflect that fact.

We can say "most all elves live in large trees like the Ava’reollár trees, though they may decorate and utilize them in different ways"


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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #25 on: 24 March 2010, 19:16:34 »

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At an average of 260 peds tall and 65 peds in diameter, these trees shadow even the tallest towers men can build.

Men/elves have already built taller ones, and will probably, once more cities are developed. (That tower of the old southern empire I'm working on will surely be taller!)


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Re: Ava'reollár

« Reply #26 on: 23 June 2010, 16:39:43 »

And there are most definately trees taller than this. (At least one that i know of for certain.. some bloke from Nybelmar wrote it up.)

Mh-hm, Ra-ayne, are you still listning?


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Ava'reollár