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Author Topic: The Netherworlds (update)  (Read 6440 times)
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Azhira Styralias
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« on: 11 August 2010, 00:42:00 »

The Netherworlds entry has needed an update for quite some time. I have added small bits here and there (colored) and rearranged some sections. I've not done a whole lot of revision as I am happy with the entry as is. Discussion and suggestions welcome!

New edited intro

The Netherworlds (Styrásh Melór'aí'chán or "Melór'aí'chán", lit. "Shadow of All") is a realm believed by many Caelereth races as being a realm (or state) of darkness that exists in opposition of the "light" mortal world of Caelereth. Human lore holds that the Netherworld is a physical realm, perhaps existing on the other side of the disc of Caelereth, where souls are damned to an existence of suffering. Or at the very least, humans hold that these dark realms spiritually oppose their existence and to keep one's soul from suffering dark torment, they must redeem themselves with good works in the eyes of the Twelvern. The spiritually minded philosophy of the elven race have a less clearly defined belief of the Netherworlds. The Dream of the elves is composed of a multiverse of states, each important to the other, and the Netherworlds happen to be the "dark" existence so as to balance the "light" of the Dream. Sages of all races have debated the nature of the Netherworlds since ages past and there is no clear explanation that would satisfy the question.

__________________________________________

Description: (taken from the current Netherworlds entry. This account is obviously leaning towards the human belief that the Netherworlds is a physical place. Are there instance of elven accounts?)

What little is known of the Netherworlds' geography was collected by the Archmage Quagoth Tunta, the Archmagus of Shadow at Ximax during SW III, who seemed already lost when he was sucked as many others into Deep Winds Portal, but managed to return. The following is an excerpt from his account at the end of the battle, when he was captured by a detachment of war magi. Whether his report was still done in a state of sanity or if the things he describes are just phantoms of a mad wizard's fantasy, have to be judged by the reader on his own:

"[...] The half-world was desolate, twisted, or destroyed, take your pick. All the buildings that I saw were burnt, razed, and otherwise devastated. From the shattered courts of Santhala, to the melted spires of Ximax, to the unholy monuments replacing temples to the Gods. The elven forests were burnt to the ground, and tortured spirits were all that lived there. The mountains and caverns of the dwarves were home to beasts beyond my most terrible nightmares. All the world, a plaything for... HIM! Tarquol, Tsalba, Gurrmal-dokur...”

Quagoth grows frantic, and begins shouting out incoherent words. Our best efforts to calm him were met with no success. After approximately ten minutes, he calms enough to speak again.

“And worst of all were the graveyards, the battlesites. The dead, clawing their way out of their eternal slumber to rise and serve the Dark One. From every place, they marched north, ever north, to this accursed portal. This... (He points in the direction of the black tower.) is but a pale shadow of its unholy majesty. It is every castle, every fortress, every kingdom that has ever fallen, dwarfing them in its blasphemous grandeur. (He shudders.) Blasphemy, aye. Blasphemy the whole world. Not a single aspect of that... place failed to taunt at least one of the Gods. Nehtor ignored, the omnipresent heat of death everywhere. Healing or peace, none to be found save the healing of ending, the peace of the grave, and even those in short supply. Death a mockery, with Coór's will animating the bones of those Queprur has long kept. Hunt, only the craving for a final death, for either you or your enemies. And the things made in that land... (He gives one bark of laughter.) ...you have already seen. The swords of bone, time-scarred shields, and worst his golems, creatures perverting the world with their very existence!

The seas, the seas were dried and barren, with only an occasional ghostly ship sailing on a wind long since dead, on a sea never made. A harvest, none but pain. Destiny; only one. That which He had in store for you. (He turns to look up.) But I see You fixed that, eh? (He returns to his narrative.) War, that there was, but one fought with the deserving dead, the honored fallen of other battles. Desire, none but to avoid pain. And of Fire, only the unearthly heat of His will, not the fires of the Injèrá or the campfire one could warm ones hands around."

-- "Notes from the Other Side" by the Archmage Quagoth Tunta collected by Ximaxian Scholars, p. 2.

Quagoth revealed these facts to the Ximaxians, who felt the need to give the information wide dispersal. Death and destruction are common in the Netherworlds and chaos reigns. But if there is civilization similar to our own part of the world, has to be doubted. As for the Injèrá which is mentioned in Quagoth's account: It is indeed supposed to shine on this world as well, however, the influence and intensity of the darkwinds is much higher in the Netherworlds if we believe mythical source and masses of heavy dark clouds are roaming the skies, whipped by extremely aggressive winds, so that the day in the Netherworlds more or less is just a brighter night.

There are those Ximaxian sages who claim that an actual visit to the Netherworlds could only be possible for a mighty wizard, whose imagination is so powerful that all the possibilities he works with in order to create spells can produce whole twisted worlds in his mind in case he is heavily influenced by other magical forces. These imaginations can be fostered by the mage's belief in myths. The fact that Quagoth only survived a few weeks after his return while he was mostly talking unintelligably, seem to confirm at least the possibility of such a daring thesis. (The last few sentences in this paragraph were moved to Location)

Black Tower of Ximax
The Black Tower of Ximax is the only structure that is not in some way twisted, this is one focus and source of Coór's dark powers; however, much of the force here gather is probably counteracted by the pale influence of the White Tower and the Orb of Ximax. (<--- This needs confirmed by Ximaxian experts...)

Quagoth himself thought that this might mean that Ximax, or some similar place, is repeated in perhaps hundreds of different worlds, with the same forces held in check by the stone sentinels of whoever controlled the area.

______________________________________________

(Again here below are physical locations that have qualities of both the Netherworld and Caelereth...lending proof of the human belief? What explanation would elves give for Osthemangar, the Gorge and Cort'Mangar?)


Castles of the Damned
According to Quagoth, every castle or fortress in our world is replaced by some pitiful mockery of itself, sources of corruption and pestilence. It is thought that the denizens of these tortured halls can only achieve peace by bringing their terrible state to their counterparts.

Osthemangar
Where the Deep Winds Portal stands on Caelereth, Osthemangar stands in the Netherworlds. An unholy monument to chaos, corruption and terror, Osthemangar was described by Quagoth as "a masterwork of evil, a symphony of nightmares, the darkest, festering hole of shadows in the entire benighted land". According to his none-too-coherent accounts, the palace was made of fortresses upon fortresses, towers used as bricks, the greatest castles of Santharia mere ornaments upon its wretched glory. In addition, the blighted plain known as the Mists of Osthemangar is a region of unholy pestilence that surrounds the Deep Winds tower. The seething grey mist covers the land surrounding the tower for many strals. All manner of corrupt creatures and denizens are said to live within this area such as huge spinewyrms, Ghostling brownies and the undead dragon known as Ezorrak’lagdan in orcen legend.

The Shadespell Gorge
A massive chasm of shadowy darkness runs for many strals along the northern region of Caaehl’heroth. Orcen legends have a name for this dark wound in the earth: “the Dark Distance”. The ancient Erpheronian settlers called it the “Shadow Spine”. Scholars have come to believe that this gorge opened up into the Netherworld long ago during the mythical War of the Chosen. Dark tendrils of night can be seen twisting and reaching upwards like a pit of seething snakes. The belief that this gorge may be a large portal into Coor’s world is a frightening prospect.

The Ruins of Cort’Mangar
This orcen and dark elven city was once known as “Cor’tam Angarek” (lit. “City of the Dark Claw”). It was founded in ancient times during the Era of Sundering when the dark elves and their orcen slaves fled the destruction of Favalcar. Some centuries later, as a result of the War of the Chosen, the Shadespell Gorge opened up and the city was engulfed in Netherworld shadow. The inhabitants were caught by surprise and, if the stories are to be believed, the shadow turned them into twisted beings of hungry darkness called Shades. No detailed explorations have been made of the ruins due to the danger involved.

______________________________________

Location. (Needs revised to include both elven and human beliefs: physical location vs. Dreamlike...)

Though there is no hard evidence telling of the location of the Netherworlds, Avanian and Twelvern clerics teach that the twisted Netherworlds rest deep beneath the surface of Caelereth. Many parts of the Netherworlds are said to consist of caverns located between the two sides of the complete Caelereth world, however, it is also told that there exists a barren surface on the other side, where the creatures of darkness dwell as if they were on the upper side.

There are also theories by modern sages that the Netherworlds are in fact not a physical location, but simply a reflection of the known world in our minds, just as summoned demons are only real products of our imagination. When the Archmage Quagoth was pulled into the Deep Winds Portal, who can say if he was physically taken there or if only his spirit was? (<--- Moved and added from the Appearance section)

Inhabitants:

Throughout Caelereth’s history, powerful magi and clerics of Coor have summoned various denizens from the Netherworld, or so it is believed. The elves do not doubt the existence of the chaos world and much of the lore told today points to the Third Sarvonian War as well as the Móch'rónn Saban Blackcloak as evidence that the Netherworld is indeed home to creatures and powerful beings.


Coor, God of Darkness
(Elvish: "Night", "Darkness") Coór represents the elven God of Chaos, of Darkness, Night and Nothing, the Shadow Himself. He is considered male, destructive and unforgiving by nature as He constitutes the counterpart to the High Goddess Avá, the One, the Eternal, the Compassionate, She Who Dreameth Forth All Things, Avá the Beautiful. Coór is the embodiment of hatred, rage and wrath, Master of the so-called "Coór'enín", the High Spirits who had been neglected by Avá as she instructed the High Spirits to organize chaos. These Spirits are also called "the Dark Gods.


Saban Blackcloak (210 b.S.-approx. 200 a.S.)
Saban was the notorious son of the reincarnation of Coór, Coór'Mélor, and Aiá'merán, the elven Avá'ránn. He was also the twin brother of Eyrin Fontramonn. Kidnapped and raised by orcs from a young age, Saban did not believe that his father was the true saviour of the darklings and set about becoming greater than his father. Saban became the Móch'rónn ("Dark Lord"), and in 62 b.S. began his descent into the Hèckranian Volcano in order to topple the Earth Titan from his reign over his element. He finally suffered his destiny through his own brother, Eyrin, fulfilling the prediction of the Oracle of Cartoral.


The Mystran
The creature of legend known as the Mystran instills fear within any who know of even an inkling of the creature's power. The Mystran is like a living shadow, a spirit-like consciousness of unknown form. It is malevolent and dreadful, and also highly intelligent. The Mystran exists to sow chaos and despair among the living and, it is said, it often uses other mortal races in its nefarious plots of destruction. The Mystran is considered by some to be one of the most dangerous and evil creatures in all of Caelereth as it is said that it not only cannot die by any known means, but it also has the power to bend mortal minds to its will and thus can create entire legions of minions at its beck and call.


The Netherbeast
This creature is said to be one of the most horrifying and bloodthirsty fiends ever to walk the face of Caelereth. Demonologists say that these wretched creatures were summoned and brought to life through magical means thousands of years ago from the depths of the Netherworlds to wreak untold destruction. These beasts may vary completely in appearance, ranging from spider-like forms with human skulls to mighty horned skeletons or slimy, toxic creatures resembling crawling brains and rumored to possess magical abilities never dreamed of. Some demonologists say that the Netherbeast is a vile combination of corpses and bodily parts of other Netherworld creatures. There are some accounts that the bite or wound made by a Netherbeast can turn its victim into a Netherbeast themselves.


The Wraith
The Móh-Mélor (Styrásh Móh-Mélor), literally meaning "dark shadow", though more commonly known as the Wraith, is an unseen demon that inhabits empty space, including even the smallest cracks in buildings and ground. These demons have the ability to pass right through any physical or mental substance, and are a parasitic beings. Though rare in any place other than the Netherworlds, when taking manifest upon the realm of mortals, the most common thing for the Wraith to do is seek out the nearest person and possess them.


Coat of Arms.

While no official coat of arms is known to exist for the Netherworld and its creatures, some of the survivors of the final battle of Osthemangar claim that the unholy guard of the Portal bore dark red armor with the black bolt of Coór emblazoned on it. Since then this sign has often been used as the symbol of the Netherworlds as a whole.

Mythology. (Arti's ideas to be summarized and integrated here.)

Elven Belief:
The Netherworlds, as is implied by its Styrásh name, Melór'aí'chán, is the shadow of all things with everything this implies. The elves teach that the Netherworlds are the resting place of the Chaos God Coor himself. Or at least there exist several myths suggesting this. Some elven stories even claim that for each child being born in our world, a shadow comes to life in the depths below us and that the destinies of these two existences are tied together forever.


Human Belief
An ancient human teaching says that when someone dies in our world his or her “soul” or spirit may fall back into the Netherworld and be reborn there (and the other way round). The Kyranian philosopher sage XXX spoke of this teaching in his writings dated sometime during the Age of Blood:

“…The world of unknowable dark and our present reality can be said to be connected by means of the spirits of the dead. As death comes to us all, our spiritual bodies are swiftly taken to the Dark and thusly we are born once more to live a life of confusion, chaos and insidious madness. The lives we live in this present world, be it good or evil, can determine our fate in the Dark afterlife. But who is to say that the Dark should be considered the afterlife? Perhaps the Dark is the genuine reality we all live in and crave? And this world of trees, water, sunsets and “gods” is but the afterlife and the Dark is where we truly belong? Tis unfortunate that one cannot visit both worlds and tell of the wonders of each. Nevertheless, only death will determine the truth. So be not fearful, brothers and sisters, for our spirits are beyond true death so embrace the Dark whence it comes…”

The complete works of XXX are in poor condition, unfortunately, with the bulk of his tattered manuscripts now stored in the Thalambathan Magical Academy. Those teachings are generally regarded by more reputable clerics as the rantings of a mad unbeliever during a particularly trying time in that period of history. It is interesting to note that the names of the Twelvern deities are not mentioned in XXX’s works. It is generally accepted among Santharian humans that death falls within the realm of Queprur and that she guards the afterlife with steadfast devotion.


Dwarven Belief
According to the dwarves, the Netherworlds were a flawed creation of their God Trum-Baroll. Upon death, dwarven belief holds that the dead turn to stone forever to dwell in the earth’s embrace. While humans and elves may believe a spirit can exist after death, dwarven belief holds that the spirit may well also exist outside of the physical body for a time before becoming one with the stone of the earth. The Netherworlds, however, are considered a place not of stone, but of immaterial nothingness in dwarven belief. To the dwarves, there is no place of rest in the Netherworlds. As such, stone does not exist in the Chaos Realm and a dwarf would be loathe to exist there after death.

Some dwarven magi believe that the Netherworlds are the home of dark spirits whence magic can be called forth. This belief is similar to human and elven lore, but certain groups of dwarven magi teach that all magic power is drawn from the Chaos and made to materialize in Caelereth. This sub-sect of dwarven casters have come to be known as the XXX. Their belief is not shared by all magi, and in particular the Ximaxian philosophy disagrees with the XXX in many ways. It has been pointed out that the magic of summoning demons from the Netherworlds gives some credence to the XXXs’ teachings.

Another well-known dwarven superstition says that if one digs too deep into the earth, one will eventually reach the Netherworld deep below. This would mean that the Netherworlds is a physical place located somewhere in the center of the Caelereth Disk (as discussed below). Some dwarves claim to have an innate sense of exactly how far down to dig before encountering Netherworld presence or “dark stone” as they call it.


Number of Netherworlds
It has been long debated among reputable sages that perhaps more than one Netherworld exists. Various studies and works have been written on the topic and depending on the author, the Netherworld is either one physical location or many spiritual ones. Because, whether one Netherworld exists (physically, below Caelereth) or many (spiritual worlds, a multitude, as manifold as the faces of Coór, of which what lies physically below Caelereth is just one representation). The elves believe for example that the Tree of Life only burned in this reality and that it is hidden/thrives in other realities, so the Netherworlds might be "evil" realities, and there might be other "good" ones. Physical or spiritual - is practically impossible to say what is real for an elf if reality is dream-like. It is impossible to really know truth from myth.


Summoning
The power to summon creatures from the Netherworld belongs to few powerful magi and clerics. Summoning magic has long been practiced by magi throughout history with the Ximax Academy and the Thalambathan Wizard School having the foremost experts. The exact means to connect Caelereth with the Netherworld is not entirely known, or at least, the explanation is beyond the understanding of many. However this connection works, it can at least produce physical results by creating a demon in this part of the world, either by bringing an idea into existence or by pulling it from somewhere else.


The Existence of the Netherworld
Some elven philosophers have wondered why the Netherworlds should even exist. Why would the embodiment of chaos seek to bring order to a place, even such a twisted order as that of Melór'aí'chán? One of the High Clerics of the Avanian, an elf by the name of Oh'soór ("Light-Speaking") once spoke on this matter; the date is unknown:

"Melór'aí'chán is another of the places where the High blur. The Shadow's desire to destroy, the Light's desire to create, here they have achieved a separate balance than that of our world. Here, the Creation is key. Though we may destroy, Creation is the eternal victor, as is seen in all life, ever expanding, ever honoring the Dream of Dreams. However, below, Destruction reigns. Though His creations war not amongst themselves, thus serving Creation, they are united only by their hatred of us, of the continuing Dream, of their own hideous existence. Their urge to Destroy guides them. So it can be seen that there can be no place where one of the High truly rules. If the Creator had supreme reign, the world would be so vast as to be destroyed instantly by its own complexity. If the Destroyer had supreme reign, such a place would be destroyed in its very creation. Therefore, all worlds can only exist if the High are in some balance with each other. [...]"

-- "Sermons on the Essence of Darkness and Light" by Oh'soór, Sermon 9, p. 3.

Errata...

According to elven lore, the Netherworlds are the home of the Chaos God Coor and of all the dark creations or rather mis-creations of the Shadow. The Netherworlds are not believed to be a separate reality of its own, but actually a part of Caelereth’s “dark side”. The fearsome and mindless Netherbeasts, the terrifying abominations known as the Chasm Demons and the shadowy Mystran demon are all said to dwell within the Netherworlds. Avarian and Twelvern clerics teach that the only thing stopping these horrific beasts from entering Caelereth is the will and determination of the Twelve Gods. Despite the power of the gods, however, in keeping the Shadow from invading the light side of Caelereth, it has been known that “breeches” or “holes” can be made separating the light and dark realms using powerful magics. In this way, it is possible to summon creatures and powers from the Netherworlds into Caelereth.
« Last Edit: 12 May 2012, 00:01:45 by Azhira Styralias » Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #1 on: 11 August 2010, 02:17:33 »

I like the netherworld concept so I am glad it is getting some attention.

First of we need a reference to the Shadespell Gorge and Cortmanger. Perhaps they should be added as locations of note.  

Also there is talk of a gateway to the Netherworld in the Venlaken enclave.  
Quote
Mostly after the events of the Dark Plague some of the Ansaran mages have started to take the popular legends from the Anpagan province of Lun more seriously, about how a certain gateway to the Netherworld might exist in that place. Such a connection to a most dark world would certainly explain a lot of the mysteries surrounding the Daedhirian heresy.


Finally I wonder if there are any concerns that the dwarves will delve too deep and tap into the underworld (LOTR reference).  Might be interesting to explore.
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« Reply #2 on: 11 August 2010, 04:54:19 »

A few notes:

- Guess I pointed that out already, but the elven belief is called "Avanian faith" (instead of "Avarian"), and the elves refer to what the humans have named "Gods" as "Aviaria". That shouldn't be mixed up, though I admit it's a little confusing...

- The term "modern" probably should also be avoided... It's rather, well, "modern" referring mainly to an Earthen era, and the other meanings derived from there.

- This part was already in the original entry, but it raises interesting questions:

Quote
There are also theories by modern sages that the Netherworlds are in fact not a physical location, but simply a reflection of the known world in our minds, just as summoned demons are only real products of our imagination

Because, whether the Netherworlds exist physically or just spiritually, there's a way to connect to such a vast world that is relatively unknown, a magical way, and that it harbours darkness of any kind. And that it can at least produce phyiscal results by creating a demon in this part of the world, either by bringing an idea into existence or by pulling it from somewhere else.

In this context I noticed that various entry writers used either "Netherworld" or "Netherworlds". I think you might mention that explicitly that it is entirely unclear which one is right: Is there only one Netherworld (physically, below Caelereth), or are there several more (spiritual worlds, a multitude, as manifold as the faces of Coór, of which what lies physically below Caelereth is just one representation). The elves believe for example that the Tree of Life only burned in this reality and that it is hidden/thrives in other realities, so the Netherworlds might be "evil" realities, and there might be other "good" ones. Physical or spiritual - is is practically impossible to say what is real for an elf if reality is dream-like.

Just wanted to throw this in, worth a thought, could be elaborated a bit more in this direction.
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« Reply #3 on: 11 August 2010, 23:14:40 »

Quote
Guess I pointed that out already, but the elven belief is called "Avanian faith" (instead of "Avarian"), and the elves refer to what the humans have named "Gods" as "Aviaria". That shouldn't be mixed up, though I admit it's a little confusing...

I always get this mixed up... rolleyes I'll change it.

@ Seeker - As is typical with me, I tend to forget my own entries when cross-referencing... :P I am glad someone is around to point that out.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #4 on: 12 August 2010, 01:13:18 »

Ok I added a bunch of new stuff.

I put this into a standard Places template. I added inhabitants (since the Netherworld has no flora or fauna)

Added Cort'mangar and Shadespell

Added a bit about dwarves delving too deep

I reorganized the myth section adding Arti's suggestions and summoning procedures.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #5 on: 17 August 2010, 03:25:40 »

Nice additions, Azhira! A few more notes on the Myth part:

- This idea, mentioned already in the original entry, I find interesting:

Quote
An ancient human teaching says that when someone dies in our world his or her “soul” or spirit may fall back into the Netherworld and be reborn there (and the other way round).

Maybe there's some sort of Yin/Yang belief that a spirit constantly switches between the worlds. The way this sentence is written this would mean that there's one main world (Caelereth or the Netherworld), which is the "real" one, because there's a "return scenario". So what if a soul would always go from one world to the other after death in order to achieve an unknown goal? That's just a small tweak of that initial idea which would make it more meaningful mayhaps.

- I like the dwarven take on things :) It seems to be suggested that what they have in spirit has to "materialize", so that it ends up in stone. Maybe for the dwarves the "womb of the Earth", as the central part between the two worlds is considered their "heaven", because this is the realm of stone. The Netherworlds by the dwarves perhaps are seen as a realm of "dark spirits", very non-material, and the people on Caelereth who summon these spirits/ideas draw from there, converting them to "matter" through magic and such. A dwarf would see such a materialization anyway as the way magic works I assume. Just a few ideas you might want to work into this perhaps.
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« Reply #6 on: 21 August 2010, 01:42:20 »

Great ideas, Arti.  thumbup I expanded the human and dwarven beliefs sections using your ideas. I'll need to have Bard take a peek at what I did as it expands their beliefs.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #7 on: 21 August 2010, 03:36:40 »

Azhira

You may want to inlcude the Netherswimmer, Netherdrake and TeiHai Demon.  All these creatures are beleived to  have ties to the Netherworld.
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« Reply #8 on: 21 August 2010, 10:51:54 »

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The Black Tower of Ximax is the only structure that is not in some way twisted, this is one focus and source of Coór's dark powers; however, much of the force here gather is probably counteracted by the pale influence of the White Tower and the Orb of Ximax.

I'm not sure how I feel about this as it seems to tie Ecua magic to Coor.  Ximax, as an institution, is quite secular, despite the fact that most of its students are of one denomination or another.  Saying that the Ecua tower is a bastion of Coor suggests that Ecua magic is the magic of Coor which 1) contradicts this secularism and 2) would chase people away so that it was never practiced in the first place.

I'm not sure if that made sense so feel free to ask any questions you might have. 
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« Reply #9 on: 21 August 2010, 22:15:49 »

Az, see my reply to your post in my bell-ringing thread!

 I hate to disagree with your creative suggestions here, but they do contradict long-extant dwarven beliefs about the physical/spiritual makeup of Caelereth....  The main issue that can't work is the idea of 'nether' being dark, dangerous, evil, etc. - completely opposite to how dwarves experience it.  To them, agoraphobic and nyctophiliac, the huge flat bright spaces of the "Aboveground" are alien and threatening.  The further down they dig, the closer they come to TrumBaroll and the desire of their afterlife.

However, I think these following concepts are promising and could still be integrated as a solution to how dwarven magi might view the idea of the Netherworld:


"The Netherworlds by the dwarves perhaps are seen as a realm of "dark spirits", very non-material, and the people on Caelereth who summon these spirits/ideas draw from there, converting them to "matter" through magic and such. A dwarf would see such a materialization anyway as the way magic works I assume."

"Some dwarven magi believe that the Netherworlds are the home of dark spirits whence magic can be called forth. This belief is similar to human and elven lore, but certain groups of dwarven magi teach that all magic power is drawn from the Chaos and made to materialize in Caelereth. This sub-sect of dwarven casters have come to be known as the XXX. Their belief is not shared by all magi, and in particular the Ximaxian philosophy disagrees with the XXX in many ways. It has been pointed out that the magic of summoning demons from the Netherworlds gives some credence to the XXXs’ teachings."

Let's talk and see how we can incorporate as much as possible of what you've written so that it works with the existing dwarven beliefs and enhances them!

Hugs,
J
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« Reply #10 on: 23 August 2010, 01:15:53 »

Thanks Judy!  :) I was hoping you would be able to verify what I wrote.

The idea was to have the Netherworld concept (myth) for dwarves as a place where stone and earth do not exist. It would be a place where Trum-Baroll is far removed because this Netherworld has no earthen idea to it. In essence, a Thergerim "hell". But if they have no such concept, then I suppose that can't work.

If we take the above concepts, we could say that some Thergerim believe the Netherworld to be a place of dark spirits where evil magic originate. To a dwarf, it is more of a spiritual "idea" as opposed to a place deep in the earth or a reverse of the physical world. If this is not a traditional Thergerim teaching, then I like the idea of a small sect of teachers that believe it.

Would dwarves have a cult centered around the Netherworld concept?
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« Reply #11 on: 23 August 2010, 01:30:12 »

I rather like that, yes.   Of course the Xirghurim (or however we wound up spelling that) are described as one of the most philosophically flexible of the dwarven clans, and can believe as many as two impossible things before breakfast.... but any dwarven magic user would have to have a certain open-mindedness about the various magical beliefs extant in Caelereth, even if he/she sticks strictly to accepted dwarven practice and use of reagents.     

And I'm not opposed to a dwarven concept of Netherworld, by any means - it simply wouldn't be a deep-down location OR a 'hell' aka place of punishment since there is no room for that in their faith.   I rather like your 'place of evil spirits' - which I suspect dwarves would view as being up rather than down, and 'pallid fire' rather than 'dark'  (since for the Thergerim dark does not equal evil!) - perhaps they believe it to be located on the far side of Injera? A place where no stone and earth exists, and blinding frightening whiteness surrounds one?  :)  Just a thought....
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« Reply #12 on: 23 August 2010, 01:55:03 »

I don't know anything about this, so my comment might be completely useless. But since you're looking for ideas of where to locate a place of evil spirits according to dwarven belief ... What about the sea? Dwarves might well imagine the sea to be bottomless, an abnormality in the earth column?
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« Reply #13 on: 25 August 2010, 02:20:57 »

I am not happy with this.  :(

Expect more extensive revisions in the coming days. I want different views and lore for each major race. Right now, the entry is not organized how I want it to be. I don't have enough of the elven view point and the dwarven perspective is throwing me way off...



 noidea
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #14 on: 27 August 2010, 18:57:39 »

I've split this topic now... The basic discussion about Avanian and Twelvern belief got its own thread, which can be found here. This thread is meant to deal with the Netherworlds entry, which of course is partly also a result from that.
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