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Author Topic: Murlar, R'unorian God  (Read 6168 times)
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #15 on: 18 May 2011, 16:41:35 »

Excellent, Drasil.  I was thinking that, but didn't know how to express it, but you stated it very clearly.  Ground up vs top down. :D
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« Reply #16 on: 18 May 2011, 18:43:12 »

Do I have expressed myself so unclear? I'm not against opening R'unor, I just said, let's think about, if it is ok to do so. There is still the focus on Manthria, and if we develop R'unor now, that is distraction from there. This is something we should not do in passing.

@Dek: Please, take a break for a while and visit this nice place to have a rest. You know, that I not always choose the word I need, and maybe meaningless what not what I meant. But, hmm, your arguments did not fit, because I did not say, what you mentioned? See my other explanations also. You know very well, that I meant that short post in Valan's Murlar thread and not your whole work, and surely not what you are doing on the RP board, because I don't know, what you are doing there. You are frustrated, because the fights in Santhworld do not work out as you expected, and I assume, there are other things in your Santharian and RL, that frustrate you, but please don't take one word of me and interpret it so wrongly. You know yourself, that I was not saying such a thing.

@Alt: Icelands religion: True, you develop here and there some traits of your gods, but, you have this region pretty tight in your grip and you are knowing , what you are doing. If somebody else would come, without your knowledge, I would say no, the traits of the religion have to be clear first, otherwise it would be an enormous work for Azhira and me, the commenting stuff and pointing in the direction which is planned.

That reminds me, that I should remove Pikel from his claim..

@ all
The mixture of orcs and humans might be not so new anymore with your Antislar, but first, they are not yet on the site, and second, the relation in R'unor may be /should be different to that of your Antislar.

I agree with Drasil view of how to build a society, but on the other side, Murlar is started and I would complete it now - with the option to rewrite parts, if they don't fit later. If you want to take R'unor under your wings, Valan, then this is ok.

Summary:

If most are ok with Valan taking over R'unor, then it will be so. BUT, Valan, you cannot pick an entry here or there , develop one god or the other, you need to take the responsibility for the whole islands, see, that all fits together, tie it to Nybelmar or Sarvonia also. Find a reason, why they changed their belief so dramatically. Xenox did not think in these categories, we do now, we have a migration map.

So, where do we stand now?
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« Reply #17 on: 18 May 2011, 23:45:01 »

If you are going to create a new god for an undeveloped area, then be prepared to create the religion and all that comes with it. Placing a lonely god in an empty region and leaving is not wise.

Choose your focus. Ru'nor or Aden? Hopping between two undeveloped areas is not advised for developers.
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« Reply #18 on: 19 May 2011, 10:04:08 »

I didn't think you were unclear, Talia.  You suggested a debate on the matter, so I debated. :P

And you know I don't want to make extra work for you or Azhira, so maybe I'll start some Cosmo entries..... just in case.
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« Reply #19 on: 09 June 2011, 04:40:16 »

Valan, do you wish to get a detailed comment on this one now? As it is this far developed already, you can finish it and rewrite it later :)
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #20 on: 09 June 2011, 10:15:49 »

I suppose it's about as ready as it gets.
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« Reply #21 on: 09 June 2011, 13:46:48 »

Ok, I have a look through then, but as I'm leaving today, that might take a while (next weak)
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« Reply #22 on: 14 June 2011, 04:07:43 »

Talia is going to rip this one apart pretty heavily, Valan. The content is a bit sparse and she likes alot of detail when it comes to deities. Be prepared.  ;)
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #23 on: 14 June 2011, 04:13:55 »

I'd argue it's no less sparse than others we've got on site, so I'll point to those if blame need be placed.
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« Reply #24 on: 14 June 2011, 04:34:49 »

I would counter-point that most every deity entry on-site is in need of a HEAVY revision, need proper templates or aren't even finished and thus are bad examples.

What is stopping this work from being done is either the deity belongs to a tribe/region where the original developer no longer plays here or Talia has halted work for until clerical stuff is done (going on several years now).

SOO! Since yours is the first real deity entry written in many ages, you'll be the golden example for any revision to come. Thus, you'd better step up now and shine.  grin
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #25 on: 14 June 2011, 07:16:27 »

Since we're waiting on Talia then Azhira, it would be prudent and in the interest of saving time, sweat and assorted murdering, if you were to look through it before she returned :P
You do have a modship here after all.
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« Reply #26 on: 20 June 2011, 02:51:17 »

Names
Murlar, Lord of the Depths, Keeper of Knowledge and Secrets, Master of Puzzles, Father of All Monsters

Overview
Murlar is one of three R'unorian gods of the Sea. Within his domain lies all knowledge that is yet to be discovered or unlocked. Murlar is worshipedShould be worshipped in BrE by sailors for fear of his mastery over the depths of the sea and over oceans.

Appearance
While no longer depicted by contemporary R’unorians, in the oldest temples Murlar is illustrated as a tall, grim figure with blue skin, a dark green robe, and black hair that writhes about his head. The ground where he stands is typically described as being wet, or covered in dark water.
There is very little art of Murlar that exists at all in fact; there are no portraits or sculptures of the god. Most of the depictions of Murlar are mosaics or painted murals in his older temples.  There is some deviation in images of the Keeper of Secrets, a dubious link here. I'd use a colon or semicolon rather than a comma some tribes depict him with the head of a kraken or other be-tentacled creature, while others depict him as merely an empty hood, instead of a face.
The largest tower isis tower in the city of R'unor's main harbour, a lighthouse that guides ships in. The top of the tower bears the image of a kraken, with the light located in its mouth. The mosaic stands several peds tall, and is made out of terkoise and azurite inlaid into the stone. The rest of the tower is made of massive chunks of basaltno comma, that continue to display images of sea creatures as part of the design of the building, including a great Shipwrecker Wyrm that encircles the base of the tower. The head of this wyrm forms the rest of the temple, and visitors enter through its mouth.
The contemporary culture of R'unor no longer indulges in such illustrations of Murlar. In some temples, the pedestals, alcoves, and walls where one would expect to find a statue or other representation are merely empty. There are places where images would be or have been, but they have been emptied or simply left empty. In some places, mosaics are simply random patterns of colour with no regularity or form.

Mythology
Murlar’s clergy hold no books as sacred, and only in the oldest temples is Murlar depicted in any way that is not abstract.
The stories of the other R’unorian Gods tell that Murlar has a rivalry with Gorgramoth, for the sun makes things known, and because he stole the wisdom to make glass from the Lord of the Depths. Murlar also has great enmity with Hel’fik, who wrested the knowledge to make metal from Murlar and the skill to change it into weapons with which to hunt Murlar’s children.Strictly, this doesn't work. You need either "...and also the skill..." or you need to put the "from Murlar" at the very end, thus: "..., who wrested the knowledge to make metal, and the skill to change it into weapons with which to hunt Murlar's children, from Murlar [or "from him"]".

Lore
It is said that when the first gods were born of the earth and the sea and the sky, Murlar was the first to form of the sea, and Murlar was born of the deepest parts of the sea.
Then came Vulrath, born of the waves, and Ha’lia was born of the rivers, streams and shallow pools of the land.
While his siblings spent their time among the creatures that M’rotha had created, Murlar retreated further into the depths of the sea.
There, in secret and with hidden knowledge, he took all manner of beasts and changed them, making them fearsome and dangerous.
And when he was finished Murlar turned his creations out into the world, where they spawned further monstrosities, kraken, sea wyrms, great sharks and beasts of tooth and claw, which hunted the children of the other gods in the night, and brought them fear and taught them despair.
From "The Creation of Monsters" in the Book of the Seas, a R'unorian text that collects the scripture of the gods of the sea in a single volume.Depending on the meaning you want, you can use a comma or a colon in your list. If you mean "further monstrosities and kraken and sea wyrms etc.", leave it as it is. If you mean "THESE further monstrosities..." use a colon to introduce the list." Essentially, is "further monstrosities" an item in the list itself or the set into which all the items fall?

"Life is the domain of M'rotha, for flesh is of the earth and of the earth it remains. This is known.
Death too is the domain of M'rotha, for in returning flesh to the earth it is made earth once again. This is known. Breath is of the skies and cannot be kept or held, like a wisp of cloud or a breeze. This too is known.
Blood is of the seas, and to the seas it must be returned. This also, is known.
What occurs between Death and new Life, this is not known and this is the domain of Murlar.
Bones are not of the earth, for they do not return to it. Bones are not of the sky, for they stay on the earth while all else departs. Bones are not of the sea, for they do not flow. Bones are the domain of Murlar."
Murlarn funerary chant; the verse at the end is not usually included in the rites, but is spoken as the bones are interred.

Importance
Murlar is the deity of the depths of the sea, the keeper of all knowledge that has yet to be known. Murlar is reveredEither a comma here or none after "feared" or feared, by R’unorian sailors. Craftsmen, artisans, inventors and artists all pay homage to Murlar in his role as the keeper of secrets. It is said that each new idea is wrested from Murlar’s grasp. Those who are experiencing a block of their creativity, particularly artists, are said to be wrestling with Murlar. It is to Murlar that prayers for succour when all else fails are given, for he is the master of despair.

Symbols
Murlar’s symbol is usually a great kraken, its arms twisted into question marks in a circle; he is also represented with carrion birds or scavengers, rats or ravens in particular. Such creatures are said to be Murlar’s eyes and the means by which he learns many of his secrets. All monsters and creatures that hunger after flesh are said to be the children of Murlar.

Feastdays & Celebrations
Clergy of Murlar pray at dusk and at dawn, those times when the shape of things is unknown. Murlar’s feast days are held at the end of each month. They are celebrations of intellect and cleverness, where puzzles and riddle games are played. These feasts last through the night to the next dawn, and torches and braziers are kept burning the whole night.

When leaving port on a particularly dangerous journey, an offering of food is placed in the deepest part of the harbour, as payment to Murlar’s children to appease them and keep them from doing harm Do you want to add something like "to the ship/sailors"? Just a little idea.

Murlar’s clergy also preside over the dead. Once a person dies, the body is given over to the clergy of Murlar. They first drain the blood and fluids, and return these to the sea. Then, they remove and burn the flesh and viscera, Something along the lines of "the ashes of which" or the like here? which isare scattered on the earth by priests of M'rotha. The resulting skeleton is then buried, thrown into the sea orcomma if the honour is granted, transported to the island of Bl’ckar to be entombed.

Temples
Murlar’s temples are always built within view of the sea, occasionally on cliffs overlooking harbours. Lighthouses are often incorporated into those around harbours, and sailors pay the clergy of Murlar in offerings of food to keep the lighthouse.

Murlar’s temples always include a small collection of books, often of incredible age, usually old records and other esoteric knowledge I'd change this, probably by cutting "often that" to leave "...esoteric knowledge which has been forgotten,..." often that which has been forgotten, which the clergy claim has become unknown once again.
 
The construction of the temple varies based on the local building materials. Natural caves are often favoured as the initial place of construction, and in some temples it is quite evident from the way that corridors twist and turn. Mosaics are favoured displays of art, and many temples include labyrinthine patterns in the floor or on the walls.

The greatest temple to Murlar is found on the south-western isle of M’ruthar, where the clergy is responsible for the disposal of the honoured dead on the nearby island of Bl’ckar. The temple complex extends well under the ground of the island, and in truth, there is no laity on M’ruthar,I'd end the sentence here and make the last bit a knew sentence the island is sustained by what the clergy and monks there manage to grow and the traditional offerings made when a new skeleton is delivered to the island.




Very nice entry overall, Valan, but some grammar thingies to catch.

Two of my last three posts have been Uris on your entries...you must really be sick of it :P

Ath
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #27 on: 20 June 2011, 22:59:13 »

Hello Valan, I added personality to the gods template, would you please write some about this god? And an extra paragraph for the priests? (not much more needed)

And have a look at your myth/lore section, I think you mixed it up.
Thanks
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« Reply #28 on: 21 June 2011, 08:04:52 »

Let's start!


Names
Murlar, Lord of the Depths, Keeper of Knowledge and Secrets, Master of Puzzles, Father of All Monsters

Father of all monsters.. Hmm, sounds wrong for me for a Compendium entry. Why not keep Fear and Despair, which is much broader than „monsters“? With our contemporean education, the word monster does not evoke fear anymore.

Overview
Murlar is one of three R'unorian gods of the Sea. Within his domain lies all knowledge that is yet to be discovered or unlocked. Murlar is worshipped by sailors for fear of his mastery over the depths of the sea and over oceans.

Who are the others gods of the Sea?

Appearance
While no longer depicted by contemporary R’unorians, in the oldest temples Murlar is illustrated as a tall, grim figure with blue skin, a dark green robe, and black hair that writhes about his head. The ground where he stands is typically described as being wet, or covered in dark water.

Could you expand a bit on this? Not as much as if you were writing a CD, but a bit more would be fine, the expression of the face, how his body is build etc, what about his hands.. feet

There is very little art of Murlar that exists at all in fact; there are no portraits or sculpture of the god. Most of the depictions of Murlar are mosaics or painted murals in his older temples.  There is some deviation in images of the Keeper of Secrets; some tribes depict him with the head of a kraken or other be-tentacled creature, while others depict him as merely an empty hood, instead of a face.

Just an empty hood? I mean, no body?

The largest What? is a tower in the city of R'unor's main harbour (called?) , a lighthouse that guides ships in. The top of the tower bears the image of a kraken, with the light located in its mouth. The mosaic stands several peds tall, and is made out of terkoise and azurite inlaid into the stone. The rest of the tower is made of massive chunks of basalt that continue to display images of sea creatures as part of the design of the building, including a great Shipwrecker Wyrm that encircles the base of the tower. The head of this wyrm forms the rest of the temple, and visitors enter through its mouth.
That‘s a great idea, I see Seeker already working... ;)

The contemporary culture of R'unor no longer indulge in such illustrations of Murlar. In some temples, the pedestals, alcoves, and walls where one would expect to find a statue or other representation are merely empty. There are places where images would be or have been, but they have been emptied or simply left empty. In some places, mosaics are simply random patterns of colour with no regularity or form.

Why is this so? Why is there no new art?

Mythology
Murlar’s clergy hold no books as sacred, and only in the oldest temples is Murlar depicted in any way that is not abstract.
The stories of the other R’unorian Gods tell that Murlar has a rivalry with Gorgramoth, for the sun makes things known, and because he stole the wisdom to make glass from the Lord of the Depths. Murlar also has great enmity with Hel’fik, who wrested the knowledge to make metal from Murlar and also the skill to change it into weapons with which to hunt Murlar’s children.

That is a bit piecemeal, there is surely a bit more to say, a bit better formulated and elaborated upon.

Lore
It is said that when the first gods were born of the earth and the sea and the sky, Murlar was the first to form of the sea, and Murlar was born of the deepest parts of the sea.
Then came Vulrath, born of the waves, and Ha’lia was born of the rivers, streams and shallow pools of the land.
While his siblings spent their time among the creatures that M’rotha had created, Murlar retreated further into the depths of the sea.
There, in secret and with hidden knowledge, he took all manner of beasts and changed them, making them fearsome and dangerous.
And when he was finished Murlar turned his creations out into the world, where they spawned further monstrosities, kraken, sea wyrms, great sharks and beasts of tooth and claw, which hunted the children of the other gods in the night, and brought them fear and taught them despair.

From "The Creation of Monsters" in the Book of the Seas, a R'unorian text that collects the scripture of the gods of the sea in a single volume.

That is myth, not lore , like it, especially the link/explanation why he is the Lord of Despair

"Life is the domain of M'rotha, for flesh is of the earth and of the earth it remains. This is known.
Death too is the domain of M'rotha, for in returning flesh to the earth it is made earth once again. This is known. Breath is of the skies and cannot be kept or held, like a wisp of cloud or a breeze. This too is known.
Blood is of the seas, and to the seas it must be returned. This also, is known.
What occurs between Death and new Life, this is not known and this is the domain of Murlar.
Bones are not of the earth, for they do not return to it. Bones are not of the sky, for they stay on the earth while all else departs. Bones are not of the sea, for they do not flow. Bones are the domain of Murlar."
Murlarn funerary chant; the verse at the end is not usually included in the rites, but is spoken as the bones are interred.

That‘s a prayer and does not belong under lore. It gives me the impression, that, though you say, creating this entry was fun, all seems for me a bit banged out. Sorry, but that‘s my impression.

What you have here, sounds nice, but I`m not sure, if your implications work.
M‘rotha is life, but is not Yturren life also? And why is blood of the seas? Blood is in giving birth, the menses of the woman etc. Just because it is liquid, does it belong to the sea?
Even if I follow you this far, what does it mean - blood has to return to the sea? Are the death drained of their blood and it is dumped in the sea, while the body is interred?
Bones return to the earth also, eventually...
And why do they belong to Murlar, god of the Sea, though they do not belong to the sea?

The idea of that prayer and how it sounds is great, but maybe you could make it fit? That would be great!


Importance
Murlar is the deity of the depths of the sea, the keeper of all knowledge that has yet to be known. Murlar is revered, or feared, by R’unorian sailors, craftsmen, artisans, inventors and artists all pay homage to Murlar in his role as the keeper of secrets. It is said that each new idea is wrested from Murlar’s grasp. Those who are experiencing a block of their creativity, particularly artists, are said to be wrestling with Murlar. It is to Murlar that prayers for succour when all else fails are given, for he is the master of despair.

That last connection is good! Like that! And learned a new word ;) Maybe you could connect that keeper of the secrets a bit better to the deep see, just say, what seems obvious.


Symbols
Murlar’s symbol is usually a great kraken, its arms twisted into question marks in a circle; he is also represented with carrion birds or scavengers, rats or ravens in particular. Such creatures are said to be Murlar’s eyes and the means by which he learns many of his secrets. All monsters and creatures that hunger after flesh are said to be the children of Murlar.

Why birds for a god of the sea? Is that not the domain of the wind? Rats, ravens? I don‘t think, that using those is a good idea. I see below, you are aiming at a god of death, I don‘t think, tis is a good idea.  There must be other better fitting possibilities.

Feastdays & Celebrations
Clergy of Murlar pray at dusk and at dawn, those times when the shape of things is unknown.
That‘s cool and fitting!
Murlar’s feast days are held at the end of each month. They are celebrations of intellect and cleverness, where puzzles and riddle games are played. These feasts last through the night to the next dawn, and torches and braziers are kept burning the whole night.
Good idea also!

When leaving port on a particularly dangerous journey, an offering of food is placed in the deepest part of the harbour, as payment to Murlar’s children to appease them and keep them from doing harm.
thumbup

Murlar’s clergy also preside over the dead. Once a person dies, the body is given over to the clergy of Murlar. They first drain the blood and fluids, and return these to the sea. Then, they remove and burn the flesh and viscera, which is scattered on the earth by priests of M'rotha. The resulting skeleton is then buried, thrown into the sea or if the honour is granted, transported to the island of Bl’ckar to be entombed.

1. That‘s a deviation from the indented, original tasks, you need to convince me, that this is needed and inevitable ! ;) M`rotha is the goddess of death.
2. You are draining the blood! Huu... Is that at all possible? What if somebody is dead for some time, and this is not possible anymore? Many cultures wait  a day or two, or three, till the deads a re buried, you are hurrying! Why do they burn the flesh? Should that not be the task for the M‘rotha priests? When is the skeleton buried, when thrown in sea, and why is not all burned?


Temples
Murlar’s temples are always built within view of the sea, occasionally on cliffs overlooking harbours. Lighthouses are often incorporated into those around harbours, and sailors pay the clergy of Murlar in offerings of food to keep the lighthouse.

Murlar’s temples always include a small collection of books, often of incredible age, usually old records and other esoteric knowledge often that which has been forgotten, which the clergy claim has become unknown once again.
 
The construction of the temple varies based on the local building materials. Natural caves are often favoured as the initial place of construction, and in some temples it is quite evident from the way that corridors twist and turn. Mosaics are favoured displays of art, and many temples include labyrinthine patterns in the floor or on the walls.

The greatest temple to Murlar is found on the south-western isle of M’ruthar, where the clergy is responsible for the disposal of the honoured dead on the nearby island of Bl’ckar. The temple complex extends well under the ground of the island, and in truth, there is no laity on M’ruthar, the island is sustained by what the clergy and monks there manage to grow and the traditional offerings made when a new skeleton is delivered to the island.

This leaves many questions open, though it sounds interesting.

Valan, I‘m not generally against your idea with giving Murlar a piece of the death-culture, but it needs to be more convincing, justified and M‘rotha has to be still the main goddess of the death, as it was intended. Maybe you could connect him to certain aspects of death - the death out of curiosity, out of fear/despair (suicide?) .

What about the clergy, has it a hierarchy? A few sentences would be cool, not too elaborated though.
More rituals?

Your approach to this god is promising and interesting, there are some very good ideas in it, your attempt for that prayer was not bad. I like that language. But I want to see some more heart blood in it ! When you have some time left, go through it again, maybe with the template next to you. Give this submission some more time, sleep over it, and I see a good entry coming
:D
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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #29 on: 21 June 2011, 10:27:59 »

So, since I'm not going to be addressing them, as I understand it, I need to explain my not addressing several comments.
This isn't to say that there aren't valid comments, or that I haven't failed to explain myself better in some regards, but there are a few preconceptions that need to be addressed.
Something that seems immediately obvious to me is that you're used to working with the Twelve, which are very passive, and honestly rather boring. Murlar is borrowing from a lot of classical mythology, gods that were jealous, vengeful, spiteful hateful, wrathful, cheerful, mirthful and altogether very human. The largest influences that crop up here are Odin, Loki and Set.

What this entry is intending to do is define R'unorian religion through its gods. You seem to have a problem with that and it might be because you're used to working with the passive (and honestly boring) Twelve. It seems like the cosmology forum is stuck with the idea that because a god happens to have "sea" or "fire" as their sphere that they have to live, eat, sleep and breathe that element, to the exclusion of all else. R'unorian gods are not elementals.

The other problem I have. You're using the word wrong. Which I take just a bit of offence to. I would not say I've done something wrong, rather I've done it in a way which you would not have. To be completely precise, I have a different interpretation. At this point, short of outright contradicting what is on site or the general development rules (which I have not done neither of) it is not possible to do something that is out and out wrong in R'unor. R'unor is being defined. This is one of the entries doing so. A decidedly poor choice of words.

You've left me with very little desire to work on this entry Talia. I say this because the feeling I get from your comments is that you don't like people doing things a way that you yourself would not. And this is in spite of asking people to see things your way. You have dogged this entry since it began, and I'm not willing to put up with another page of bickering with anyone over this.
Since you are a moderator here, I see that I'm left with two choices. Either I have to make another uninteresting divinity, or I must put this entry in abeyance. Since the former is not a road I am willing to take, I'm putting this entry and the other R'unorian gods on indefinite hold while I work elsewhere. That is to say, not abandoning.
« Last Edit: 21 June 2011, 10:31:27 by Valan Nonesuch » Logged

Beyond the horizon where the earth and the heavens meet
lies a certain point where they are not joined together and where, by stooping,
one might pass under the roof of the heavens.
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