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[Coren FrozenZephyr]

EDIT: Whilst I was typing this Ath and Azhira made two posts. I haven't had a chance to read those yet.


Guys... this discussion is getting more and more antagonistic. Could we all take a step back please?

If I could perhaps act as a mediator? I believe I see what Talia had in mind and I understand where others are coming from. (Talia, Dek, Azhira, Valan, Ath - please correct me if I have misinterpreted what you were saying.)

Back when dinosaurs still walked the earth, we decided that the Magic Menu on the site needed to be re-organised. (Which, btw, still has not happened.) The team back then decided to adopt the following scheme:


1) Rewrite the "About Magic in Caelereth" entry. This would be THE overview of all types of magic currently known. This entry was to establish the major categories of magic. All existing systems were then to be slotted into one of these categories on the menu. For instance, Ximaxian and Krean magic would go under something like "Secular Magic". Under Clerical Magic, you would have Twelvern Magic (or whatever it is called) of Santharian clerics, the magic of the Aeoliran clerics of Aeruillin etc. Then we had a "catch-all" category called Wild Magic, under which anything that defied neat classification could conveniently be swept.

As new magical systems were developed, they too would be slotted into one of the 'categories' established here. Anything that was a bit iffy to categorize would be swept conveniently under the title "Wild Magic" - aka: Magic Santharian Humans Cannot Quite Categorize and/or Explain.

The most recent (back in 2007!) attempt to complete this was Magic! Organisation. I think this was one of those proverbial icebergs. If memory serves, most of that categorisation was discussed/agreed upon at Santhmoot and Talia had to play the scribe and format/post it on the board for those of us (like me) who weren't at Santhmoot.

2) Moving one step "down", we would be a more detailed entry on each of those categories. Separate entries for Religious Magic, Secular Magic, Wild Magic etc. Eg the Secular Magic overview would give a snapshot of all such systems currently known (eg Krean/Ximaxian) and link to the relevant entries. Wild Magic would do the same thing for Naming, Witchcraft etc.

3) Rinse and repeat another step down. At this point, each developer volunteered to do one of these sub-overviews. Talia/Viresse would do Santharian Twelvern Magic; I would do Krean Magic, Rayne/Silfer would do Ximaxian Magic etc.

I believe this entry is intended to go under Step-2, right? It would be the menu overview for Religious Magic. These "Step-2 overviews" were to do two things: a) Briefly explain what distinguished that particular category from the other main categories. That is: How "Religious Magic" differs from say "Secular" or "Wild". b) List/summarise its sub-categories. So Religious Magic would be broken down into: Clerical, Druid, Ancestral etc - with links to those.

Once these "frameworks" were in place, each developer would then specify where their own tribe etc fit. If a particular tribe/system did not fit neatly into any of these categories or spanned more than one category, that would be explained by reference to these "anchors". So, for example, Azhira would come up with a paragraph saying: "The magic of the Kaer orcs seem to be somewhere between [insert category: Divine] and [Ancestral] and [Wild] magic because [xyz]"


Does that kinda make sense? Working top down or bottom up is ultimately a personal preference, but at least this way we would divide the Magic menu into manageable chunks and make it easier to navigate. Perhaps we could help Talia by doing one of three things:

a) Structure: Information flow. Should things be moved around? Suggestions on organising the information she already wrote etc

b) Wording etc to keep it 'open-textured' enough to cover new developments as they arise.

c) Research. Go through the site and find all the systems that would fit under this entry. Also, each developer could check whether their tribe/system is represented accurately in Talia's text.

Bah - I'm too tired right now. I get the feeling that I began to ramble towards the end. Hope that was remotely helpful

[Azhira Styralias]

I full agree with Coren. Drasil started an org of the magic menu recently. This definitely needs done in organized stages, and with an all-hands member support.

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

Ath, today I can't follow your logic, I'm too tired, maybe tomorrow.

I didn't want to bring this discussion up again (though I found some good ideas I missed), but I dug out an old statement of Art. So if you want to annoy him , then restart the discussion.    I for my part am fully on his line.

You will find the whole discussion Here

I quote Art's comment, mainly on Theo's arguments, from different posts:

The second sentence is in no way deduceable from the first one and doesn't even implicate it a nailsbreadth. But yes, if you want a clear statement in case you cannot sleep without having this question solved: Santharian developers should develop as if Gods DON'T exist. Which says absolutely nothing about the existence of deities.
I try it once more:

The fact that a developer should keep in mind that deities in Caelereth may not exist at all and that e.g. a Ximaxian mage might be able to describe a clerical spell from his point of view does NOT mean that the explanations we give in the Compendium are "athetistic".

Only for the developers (when constructing magic) it is important to keep in mind that deities might not exist. However, for the people in the world of Caelereth, who are the ones, who write the Compendium entries, the Gods and the clerical spells are pretty much a reality, there's no doubt about that. And though the scholars (and particularly some Ximaxians) might show their natural scepticism in this regard and keep things relative to a certain degree, atheism in general is a minority in the world of Caelereth not really worth mentioning. In short: For the people of Calereth clerical magic appears as is fact, for the developers not - for the developerss it is just what religion is in its heart: belief, and so they should treat it in all its relativity, in order to allow a multitude of cultures.

[Deklitch Hardin]

You explained in three paragraphs, that my way of doing it is wrong in your sight, so what is the expected answer or reaction to it? When somebody tells me so intensely what he finds wrong, then I try to change that habit. I told you, that this is not possible for me anymore.

Talia, I am sorry. That wasn't meant to be offensive. It was more pointing out that I was coming at it from a different point of view to yourself and many others. I thought I said on more than one occasion in my comments that as far as I was concerned each approach (specific --> general; general --> specific; bottom up/top down) were just as valid as each other, but simply merely different. I apologise for the offense it caused you.

I'm not asking for any of the listed questions, just to read what I have and show me shortcomings, in those already posted parts. If you find a religious practise which would contradict the basic principles of belief and faith however, please point me to that. The problem of evil gods etc will be adressed later.

Thank you Talia, I'm now clear on what you are wanting, and know how I can help you. Thank you for that.

Coren, thank you for your explanation as well ... I now understand the bigger picture of what's behind all of this.

[Drasil Razorfang]

My magic menu re-formating can be found here.  Feel free to draw upon it or ignore it as you please.  If you prefer your own format better Talia, you can feel free to re-post it on the magic board and I'll comment on it and ask for changes until it meets my approval.  Fair?

@Coren:  While you idea for re-formating magic is nice in theory, in practicality,  I'm afraid it won't work.  For one, how do we decide what the "major categories of magic" are?  There are dozens of magic systems, each quite unique and thus unable to be lumped into a large category.  Furthermore, its impractical and will just lead to a standstill if we feud over which systems are "the most important" as every person's opinion will be different.  For example, I would say that Krean magic is no "larger" than Brownie Magic, or Decipher's Blood Magic, Druidic Magic, ect, but you appear to be of a different opinion.  Grouping them all together in "Wild Magic" doesn't really work either as it would be nearly impossible to write an overview for this new supposed category since its subject matter would be so diverse and unrelated.

The overview entry assignments clearly need to be re-considered as many of the people you have listed are either no longer active developers and therefore can't be relied upon to live up to their obligation.  After a menu is created and agreed upon, the active magic experts (by that I mean me, you, Talia, Azhira, and Fox and Mina if they so desire) should sit down and delegate the overviews among ourselves or to volunteers we agree are fit to undertake the task. 

Your ideas for structuring the menu were the same as mine beyond that.  I agree with the top down branching out approach.

Instead of continuing this discussion here, I think that someone should post a first draft of a proposed new magic menu.  In this new thread, people can voice their concerns, desires for change, ect. with something concrete to base them off of.  Everyone throwing out what they wish to see will probably just lead to a whole lot of nothing being accomplished.

Talia, I would be willing to allow you to undertake this first draft as you seem to be itching to do it.  That being said, I have two conditions you must agree to before I will be content in giving you my support.

1) You will need to accept others comments and suggestions on your proposed menu.  While you will be allowed to create the draft which we use to work, you need to be willing to accept comments from everyone with some stake in the new menu and not dig your heels in and refuse to accept changes deemed necessary if you don't like them.

2) Your first draft will need to be posted in a timely manner.  I understand that you are quite busy, but I don't want this to be another project that you heap onto your platter where it remains to fall into obscurity.  If you don't think you'll be able to complete a submission within the next month, please pass the torch on to someone else.  I do not want to sit around waiting for two years until you can finally patch something together. 

Even if you don't get to make the rough draft, your comments and ideas will most definitely be incorporated into the final version. 

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

*shuffles in*

Iceland Gods are real.  Koraya is an abomination.


*shuffles out*

[Coren FrozenZephyr]

My magic menu re-formating can be found here.  Feel free to draw upon it or ignore it as you please.  If you prefer your own format better Talia, you can feel free to re-post it on the magic board and I'll comment on it and ask for changes until it meets my approval.  Fair?

@Coren:  While you idea for re-formating magic is nice in theory, in practicality,  I'm afraid it won't work.  For one, how do we decide what the "major categories of magic" are?  There are dozens of magic systems, each quite unique and thus unable to be lumped into a large category.  Furthermore, its impractical and will just lead to a standstill if we feud over which systems are "the most important" as every person's opinion will be different.

Drasil, we already have three such categories: Secular, Religious and Wild. They were designed so that everything we have on the site would fit under them. Again, the decision was taken way back in Santhmoot I think. But the names were invented much later. See here: Magic! Organisation

Btw, why should this have anything to do with a feud over which magic system is more important? Classifying the produce of the earth into fruits and vegetables does not make apples more important than tomatoes!

(To use your example, both Krean and Brownie life magic would be classified under "Secular" - as they do not require (ie can be done without) a supernatural being outside of the mage.)

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

@Drasil:

Talia, I would be willing to allow you to undertake this first draft as you seem to be itching to do it.  That being said, I have two conditions you must agree to before I will be content in giving you my support.

I'm not itching to do it, but I would like to see my efforts and many hours already spent on it not to be in vain.

1) You will need to accept others comments and suggestions on your proposed menu.  While you will be allowed to create the draft which we use to work, you need to be willing to accept comments from everyone with some stake in the new menu and not dig your heels in and refuse to accept changes deemed necessary if you don't like them.

Are you indicating, that I have problems with accepting ideas? I don't think, that my submissions and dealing with the following comments have let you to this assumption. I'm always willing to incorporate comments as you can see in the old RM thread.

2) Your first draft will need to be posted in a timely manner.  I understand that you are quite busy, but I don't want this to be another project that you heap onto your platter where it remains to fall into obscurity.  If you don't think you'll be able to complete a submission within the next month, please pass the torch on to someone else.  I do not want to sit around waiting for two years until you can finally patch something together.

Accepted, most of the work is done anyway already, I do need the help of some however to complete not only the list for the magic menu, but the overview.

Drasil, reading your argument with Coren - are you willing to accept that division done in the past also?  

[Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr]

The point I make is not in favour of atheism but of secularism; besides which, I want to know how it actually works, and I want Compendium researchers to rise above their beliefs and admit that followers of other faiths have their prayers "granted", and then offer a hypothesis for why this is.

Do you see what I mean? The truth - be it developer truth - seems to me to be that these powers are not granted by deities, and I think an entry on clerical magic should present a reasoning for why all (most?) faiths have it rather than glossing over the problem.

If I'm not making my issue clear, then I apologise; perhaps someone who understands what I'm driving at will be able to explain it better than I can.

Ath

[Drasil Razorfang]

@Drasil:

I'm not itching to do it, but I would like to see my efforts and many hours already spent on it not to be in vain.


Are you indicating, that I have problems with accepting ideas? I don't think, that my submissions and dealing with the following comments have let you to this assumption. I'm always willing to incorporate comments as you can see in the old RM thread.

Accepted, most of the work is done anyway already, I do need the help of some however to complete not only the list for the magic menu, but the overview.

Drasil, reading your argument with Coren - are you willing to accept that division done in the past also?  

Looking back on what I wrote, it came off much more harshly than I intended Talia.  I apologize.  Let me re-phrase what I was attempting to convey:  You are have a very strong personality that, combined with the fact that you are one of the oldest developers still around, can make you a bit intimidating and sometimes overwhelming to work with though it may not be your intention.  As I was hoping that this would develop into a group project, I just wanted to ask you to try and keep that in mind so that everyone (regardless of their "status) feels comfortable posting. 

Also, it appears that I mis-interpreted the sections.     Now that Coren has explained them to me I am happy with them so feel free to keep them as your major divisions. 

[Bard Judith]

It would be just as 'reasonable' to assume - from either a Developer's view OR a particularly tolerant Compendium Researcher's view -  that all deities of the Caelerethian universe exist, as supernatural/spiritual powers of varying degree, that their level of power is determined by how much mana/faith/Force/belief/spiritual energy/mitochondrial vibrations are poured into them by their specific followers, and that each deity 'is responsible/takes care of' granting the wishes (or not, as he or she chooses) of his/her particular believer.   

  Gods of Caelereth would then be rather like parents of large families, each one concerned with protecting or supporting their own 'family' of believers.   This does not rule out them 'taking care of other people's kids' from time to time, particularly when there is a relationship between the deities concerned (such as the links within the Twelvern Gods).   One might picture Eyasha saying to Jeyriall, "One of my priestesses has just conceived...would you keep an eye on her for me?"     

Such an attitude of tolerance would have to take place in areas such as Ximax, where various religious and cultural traditions come together in the practise of magic.   A human Earth mage who invokes Urtengor must study and work side-by-side with the young (two hundred years or so) dwarf who knows his powers come directly from Trum'Baroll.... without an acceptance that they are 'tapping into' a working power source (whether the same or different), the entire city and university would not be able to exist.

How else could the people (human or otherwise) of Caelereth explain answered prayer, healing magic invoked through a deity, 'miracles', and clerical magic?  Are they all so insular that they do not even know of happenings /faiths outside of their own region, so they don't have to take it into consideration?  The average Marcoggian peasant who prays to Grothar probably does NOT know of the Ice Tribes, let alone their god or how he answers petitions.... but the sages and mages of the Compendium do, and they must take that knowledge into consideration.     

My two or three sans, which can be taken from a Developer's or a Compendiumist's perspective.....

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

Thanks for your input, Judy!

I think we need to clarify a few things about the Caelerethian gods. Each of us has a picture of 'god' or gods' in his mind, but that may not be the same. But first back to the problem, do gods exist or not?

1. We have all agreed at some time (at least those who were present), that we will not use a developers view, but say, that we don't know, if it is so.

That however, does not affect the outcome of this entry. Takór Salenár has to look into what he finds and describe it in a distant way, but nevertheless there are witnesses, prooven examples, where prayers obviously worked etc., and those can well point to the existence of gods. I don't think though, that it can ever be a definitive proof.

2. The nature of gods: We need to go away from our image which is formed by the Christian god of love (that will apply for many of us, believing or not), but look at them more in a way like Judy has described above, more in the direction of the roman or Greek pantheon. Then some problems solve themselves easily, like the question of theodice (why allows god, that innocent children die). Caelerethian gods do care, but not in a way it is believed from the Christian god. They are probably not allmighty, not everwhere etc..

3. I'm not yet sure, how to approach the exclusiveness. I'll think, that I will go in the direction, that the common people think their respective gods are the only true ones (The Marcoggian farmer believes in Seyella, the orc warrior in K’ahn’uck), the more educated will have to face the fact, that clerical magic works in other beliefs also. I will tackle that problematic more in the missing posts above.

4. There was a forth point, but my mother (78!) needed some on-line instruction how to get the weathermap working on her dinosaur mac...  maybe I remember it later !

Ath, I have not forgotten your argumentation above, need to think it through, though, generally, all teleological arguments (which were many 100 years ago) were prooven inaccurate in some way, if I remember right.

[Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr]

Ta'lia, if the scholarly stance accepts the existence of all pantheons as Judy suggests, then the premise of my argument breaks, so if that's the route you go down, fine. I really just wanted a reason like that.

To put it better, I did not use a teleological argument, as far as I understand it. I simply said that if clerical magic exists for all faiths, either it is not directly granted by a god or gods are not mutually exclusive. You said it was the latter, so that's that. It's all I was looking for.

Ath

[Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels]

Added Location and Origins, comments welcome, though in some parts it is still a work in progress!

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

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