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Author Topic: The Ethereal Void, the Memnoor Brownies and Their Magic: Discussion  (Read 4435 times)
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Drasil Razorfang
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« on: 18 June 2011, 03:35:47 »

With Rookie and Talia’s permission, I’ve begun to work on re-vamping the Memnoor Brownie tribe, and elaborating upon their system of magic (which Mina began to outline here.  In particular, this entry is meant to serve as an elaboration of the basic principles section of his entry, which provides no actual substance as to how Brownie magic works.  While Mina’s entry reads like a Ximaxian scholar commenting on the Brownie’s magic, this is meant to portray how the Brownies explain their own system.  If anyone has any questions, wants clarification about ideas that I have put forward or has a suggestion for an addition, I’d love to hear them.

Memnoor Magic:

Background for Memnoor Magic:

For the Memnoor tribe, magic is deeply intertwined with their religious and cultural beliefs.  As such, in order to even begin to understand the logic behind it, one must first have a cursory knowledge of these facets, in particular their views on the Ethereal Void.

 Like the other tribes of Caelereth, the Memnoor believe a portal or membrane marks the boundary between the world we inhabit and another outside, the Void.  As such, anything looking to move from one form of existence to the other, must pass through this gateway.  Accomplishing this task is not seen as a particularly difficult feat as the Void’s membrane is seen as being quite permeable.  All objects coming into existence (with a few exceptions) pass through it in one direction, while all those leaving it exit through the other.  Since the Brownies observe this process many times, it is not considered to be an event worthy of notice.

The Void is perceived as being a world drastically different from our own.  Rather than containing physical and tangible objects, as one finds on Caelereth, the Void, called Lloieheh by the Memnoor, is seen as being basically a vacuum filled with the raw energy that is the fundamental building block of all of existence.  When one harnesses said energy, and arranges it in various patterns, it gives birth to everything we know.  It should be noted that the differing compositions of the two worlds can never over lap.  That is to say, an object containing physical form can never exist for more than a few moments in the Lloieheh and the energy can not remain without being constructed into a recognizable substance in our world.  In this way, the [color]red]membrane[/color] of the Void also serves as a physical barrier in a second sense.  As an object or energy passes through this portal to the Ethereal Void, it is either assembled into something or disassembled back into its raw parts.

The Memnoor make a very clear distinction between the breakdown of an object as described above and one that occurs within Caelereth.  Whereas when an object passes through the Void’s portal it is viewed as either being assembled from scratch or disassembled back into its most basic building blocks, when an object changes from within Caelereth, there is no reconstruction of the energy that makes up its form.  Instead, already existing pieces are added or subtracted to give the physical appearance of the creation of a new object.  The easiest way to understand this is probably as a math equation.  When an object passes into or out of Caelereth, there is a net gain or loss in ‘energy.’  On the other hand, when an object changes form within Caelereth, there is simply a redistribution of the energy that already exists.  If a bolder is broken down into rubble, the energy that made up the form of the bolder is separated into smaller pieces (the pebbles).  Likewise, if one paints a chair red, the resulting change in perceived physical form comes from the addition of the ‘chair’ and ‘red’ pieces.

Magic Basics:

The Memnoor believe that the magic they possess is the ability to pull raw energy from the Lloieheh into Caelereth and shape it into a desired form, in essence creating a desired effect or object from scratch.  When thought about at the most basic level, the Brownie mage is serving as a substitute of sorts for the membrane between Caelereth and the Ethereal Void.  He or she serves as a portal or vessel in which the raw energies of the universe are allowed to take shape before entering their world.  The major difference between the natural Void phenomenon and the mage, however, is the fact that when acting as the vessel, the Brownie has direct control over the resulting product, while the Void produces random effects.  It is also possible for a Memnoor mage to de-construct an object and release it back into the Lloieheh, but this is rarely done since no matter what conduit is used, be it the void or a mage, the end result will always be the same (the release of the energies that make up an object into their raw forms).

The Seven Schools of Magic correspond to the seven forms of raw energy acknowledged by the Memnoor: Air, Earth, Fire, Lightning, Metal, Water and Wood.  Each of these energies, (hereafter referred to as ‘forces’) is found in equal abundance in the Lloieheh and require equal amounts of skills to weave.  When summoned by theirselves, a force may only produce rather basic effects associated with it.  For example, a Memnoor Mage channeling Fire force would be able to create light, heat or flame and attach it to an already existing object to set it ablaze.  He would not, however, be able to construct something like “flaming rocks” from scratch.  To make more complex creations, such as this, requires magi of multiple schools working in unison.  Flaming rocks, for example, would require joint channeling by both an Earth and Fire mage.

Since the Memnoor see all objects established in the world of Caelereth as being of a semi-permanent nature, once a mage allows the force he is channeling to leave his body (the vessel), it will remain in that form until it is released back into the Lloieheh.  An object can be added to or broken down into smaller pieces, as previously described, but never completely re-assembled.  Thus, a mage of metal may be able to take a steel dagger at add upon it to turn it into a sword, but he will never be able to turn that steel dagger into a copper dagger without first passing it back through the Void.

Looking back on what I’ve discussed so far, I’d like to make it clear that Memnoor magic does not deal exclusively with the destruction, creation or re-shaping of physical objects, but also can be used to alter the properties they display or enchant them.  For example, in addition to being able to create new metal, a Metal mage would also be able to imbue an object with strength and durability.  To accomplish this, the mage would simply attach a weave of the desired property to the form of his targeted object.

Spell Effects:

The effects the Memnoor are able to create with their spells will be those outlined in Mina’s entry.  These basic concepts can be further elaborated upon as people come up with new ideas.

Casting:

The process of casting Brownie magic is referred to by the Memnoor colloquially as either channeling or shaping.   Channeling can be described at its most basic level through the following steps.  First, the mage draws his force into his body, a process which differs depending upon his school.  This force is then shaped into the desired form and, when completed, tied off.  It should be noted that, though at this point in time, shaping is technically complete, the mage can choose to unravel or redo a portion of his creation if it does not meet his satisfaction.  The final step in the process is the release of the newly shaped energy.  By forcing the newly constructed form out of his body and into Caelereth, the force becomes ‘activated’ and its intended effect is produced.  At this point in time, the mage can either choose to begin to shape a new strand of his element, or cut off his link with the Lloieheh and end casting.

This explanation of the Memnoor system is deceivingly basic as its details lay many complexities.  As is true with Ximaxian Elemental magic, a Memnoor may only ‘sense’ forces of his element.  Though it is not exactly ‘sight’ in a traditional sense, a mage is able to identify both established forms in establish objects as well as watch new ‘forms’ being shaped within another mage of the same element.  

Mages able to control two or more elements are able to see both of their elements.  According to these individuals, the difference between strands is able to be identified because each element has a unique “hue.”

It should also be noted, however, that magi are able to vaguely sense the presence of elemental strands of elements besides their own through the power of deduction.  Though the Brownie cannot technically 'see' the foreign strand, they will be able to feel its obstruction to their own weaving.  For example, a Brownie mage of fire looking to set rocks ablaze of course not be able to see the elemental strands of earth with which he is working.  He will, however, be able to tell where these strands of earth exist.  Since no two elemental strands can occupy the same space within the objects form, he is able to deduce that those areas in which his weaving is obstructed contain strands of earth.

Each element is also described as having its own “character” which makes it unique to work with.  For example, Water and Air are considered to be quite gentle easy to work with, and often have their channeling process described almost as a symbiotic dance.  Lightning and Fire, on the other hand, seem to be constantly trying to escape and spread, attempting to dart beyond the caster’s control and form as they please.  As such, mages who work with these elements often describe casting as a constant struggle similar to watching a misbehaved child.  Finally, stone and metal’s personality is one of laziness and refusal to cooperate.  These elements refuse to cooperate with the caster, requiring a significant amount of prodding to be shaped into even the most basic formations.

Determining a Mage’s Strength:

The power of an individual mage is assessed by the Memnoor through two independent mechanisms known as potential and breadth.  Both of these qualities are determined for a mage at birth and are unable to be altered through training.  Among foreigners, this often sparks the question as to exactly what purpose the Seven Schools serve then, if not to increase a student’s ability.  The best answer would be that the study of magic in the Memnoor system allows a mage to reach his fullest potential and master the range abilities across his breadth.

Potential refers to the amount of force a mage can hold within his body at a given time.  In other words, it is the amount of raw power the Memnoor can effectively harness during his spell crafting abilities.  Thus, the higher a mage’s potential, the more impressive the scale of his spells will be.  For example, a Fire mage with relatively low potential might only ever be able to conjure a small flame while one with great potential could in theory summon a raging inferno.

Though every mage has a different potential, when they enroll in the Seven Schools, all begin at the same place: with no mastery.  As schooling progresses, a student’s mastery slowly increases allowing him to harness more and more power, form increasingly complex spells and rise among the School’s hierarchy.  Once a mage’s mastery reaches his potential however, his progress permanently halts.  He may continue study and master the techniques of and below his potential, but will never rise higher in position or power.  

Breadth refers to a different form of strength a Memnoor can possess, the range of elements which he is able to control.  Typically, a mage will only have an “affinity” for a particular element and thus will only be able harness its force.  Relatively rare Brownies exist, however, that are able to simultaneously control two or more elements.  These individuals are put on a special education tract at the Seven Schools to train their gift.   It has been found that approximately one in every sixty four applicants has the ability to control two elements, one in every 262144 can control three, one in every 16777216 can control four, ect. (Multiples of 64)  Only one individual is believed to have ever existed who was able to control all Seven Elements.  (Potential creation myth?)

It should be noted that breadth and potential are entirely independent measures of power.  As such, a particular mage may have an extremely wide breadth, but have only very small potential in each of his elements.  Conversely, mages with extremely high potential may have no breadth at all.  Potential is also not uniform across a mage’s breadth.  While a Brownie with the ability to control two elements might have an extremely high potential in one while having a negligible potential in the other.

Since ranking within the Seven Schools is done upon the basis of potential, Brownies with breadth provide a slight complication in the system as their power is unable to be assessed fully by a consideration of potential alone.  The solution that has developed within Memnoor society has been to mark those with breadth with a special symbol indicating their abilities within this field.  Though the Brownies are still classified as being within the same rank as other students of equal potential in the element of their highest potential, they are recognized as being “a first among equals” in this group.  

A third factor, officially unacknowledged by the Seven Schools, also plays a key roll in determining a Memnoor mage’s power: intelligence.  While an individual may be able to draw an impressive amount of force from the Lloieheh, if he is a bumbling idiot it is not likely that he will be a very successful mage.  It has been found that those with lower intelligence are generally unable to shape the forces they draw upon with the required speed and precision to be a successful mage.  On the other hand, though an individual may have low potential and breadth, if he or she possess extraordinary intelligence, it is not uncommon for this mage to be able to exceed traditional limitations.  By using their ingenuity and diligence to augment their power, a smart Memnoor might be able to compete with magi supposedly well beyond their abilities.  

Limitations

The major limiting factor upon the Memnoor mage is the forces that serve as the heart of their magic.  Since all forces need are drawn from the Lloieheh, in order to cast a spell, the mage must be relatively close to the Ethereal Void, the bridge between this world and that.  The farther away from the Void the caster travels, the more taxing the spell will be on him.  Once a mage passes through the Plain of the Dead or the Desert of the Light, even those of the highest potential will be unable to pull force through the Void for casting.

It should be noted that technically it is possible for a Memnoor mage to cast spells while beyond the reach of the Void.  To do so, the caster must pull strands of his force out of already existing objects, pool them together in his vessel and then re-shape them to create a new finished product.  This technique, however, is banned by the Seven Schools, however, for extremely good reason, and thus is never used.

When a mage pulls strands of his force from already existing objects, he messes with the very form of Caelereth, a practice which is extremely dangerous.  The best way to imagine the Memnoor’s effects of this technique is to imagine Caelereth as a giant piece of cloth.  Each of the strands of this piece of cloth represent a different woven piece of Lloieheh energy, intermixed and joined together to create all of existence.  When a mage draws force from an already existing object, he is in fact ripping one of these ‘threads of existence’ out of the very structure of Caelereth.  Thus, no matter how big or small the amount he draws, he leaves a hole in the fabric of existence.  As the world, by definition, must be continuous and fluid, such a gap cannot exist for long and a natural process of correction begins almost immediately.  Often referred to as a ‘snap’, a sudden jolt ripples across the web of energy that is the universe as this space collapses in on itself.  In a process completely uncontrolled by the mage, the various strands of energy making up Caelereth re-align themselves as they weave a new pattern.  The observable result is the sudden disappearance, creation or mutation of everything perceived as reality.

Brownies of the Seven Schools site many of the world’s greatest magical disasters, such as the after effects of the War of the Chosen, as examples of this process.

Exceptions:

The major exception to the Brownie’s beliefs on magic is the Seventh School, Life magic.  Unlike the other forces, which are seen as only existing in the Lloieheh, Life force is believed to spring from another pool entirely and thus is subject to the restrictions of the other Six Schools.  As evidence for this claim, the Memnoor argue that unlike the other elements, which can only be created from scratch when they are drawn from the Void, life springs up all over Caelereth.  Thus, it must come from another source.

This other source is not thought to tie in intimately with the fabric of the Caelereth, but rather exist almost as a layer built on top of and capable of interacting with it.  When a mage shapes Life force, he is in fact drawing from or altering energy from this other pool.  Thus, he does not alter Caelereth itself, simply a force that coexists with it.  Life magic, therefore, is not seen as having the same potentially harmful effects as the other schools and has been allowed to be practiced all over Caelereth.

Ethereal Void

Rookie and I are by no means experts on Aeruillin so we were wondering if someone could answer some questions about the Void for us?

1)   Does the Void have a definable edge?
2)   Exactly what does it look like?
3)   We were planning for the Brownies to live along its outskirts/outside edge.  Would this be physically possible?

Tribe Information

I’ve thrown together some rudimentary ideas for some of the sections of the tribe entry for discussion.

Appearance:

Its been pretty much agreed upon to throw out the idea of other races living with and inter-breeding with the Memnoor.  As such, I think an appearance section that is more distinctly “Browniin” would be in order.

I agree with Greybark’s idea that the shades of Brownies that blend in with the desert would be more likely to have survived.  So I’d think Bluebarks and Greenbarks would be quite rare.

Do we want to keep the non-traditional ethnic groups he mentions? (bronzebarks and gold barks).

Coat of Arms:

I have no ideas for this section besides the fact, that we should give them one.

Territory:

Again, they’ll live next to the void, not in it.  Also, for their territory, I was thinking it would be interesting if rather than making their city “round” like a traditional town, if it was more elongated.  Since the Memnoor are dependent upon the void, it seems to me it would make more sense for them to grow lengthwise along its boundary, rather than out into the desert where it would be more difficult for them to use their magic.

Government:

I like the idea of having no definitive “ruler” or “nobles” for Memnoor society.

Since magic is so integral in their life style, I think that having the power structure be used for social structure and government structure as well would make sense.  The length of the settlement could be divided into seven zones, each containing one of the Seven schools.  The various magi of each school would be responsible for maintaining safety and order within their zone and performing specific tasks for the good of the settlement as a whole.  Since neither potential nor element is inherited from one’s parents, it would create a relatively fluid society with no permanent ruling families or permanent local powerhouses.  

For matters affecting the settlement as a whole, a small council, with officials appointed from each school by popular vote, could preside.  For larger settlement-wide changes, this council could then call an assembly, consisting of x number of members of each level of society from each school to come together and ratify propositions.  Each member, regardless of position would be given a single vote.  

Religion/Beliefs/Early History:

I’d like to see the Memnoor tribe’s early history diverge from that of other Brownie tribes so that it incorporates the Void, since it is so essential to their society.  Similarly, I’d like to see it figure with some prominence in their beliefs as well.  

For Burial rights, perhaps an individual’s corpse could be ceremonially pushed back through the Void, releasing its energy back into the LLoieheh to be used to create something new?  I think this would add a nice touch to their beliefs on the cycle of life.
« Last Edit: 24 May 2012, 02:27:19 by Drasil Razorfang » Logged
Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #1 on: 18 June 2011, 05:15:26 »

Good job Drasil! I like what you have so far. A few comments:


Quote
Like the other tribes of Caelereth, the Memnoor view the Void as a sort of portal or membrane that marks the boundary between the world we inhabit and another outside.

1) Is the Void the membrane between Caelereth and what is outside? I thought the membrane was between the Void and the Disk, the Void being the "all that is outside" (ie akin to "space", just more magical).


Quote
All objects coming into existence (with a few exceptions) pass through it in one direction, while all those leaving it exit through the other.  Since the Brownies observe this process thousands of times a day, it is not considered to be an event worthy of notice.

Quote
The Memnoor make a very clear distinction between the breakdown of an object as described above and one that occurs within Caelereth. [...] When an object passes through the Void into or out of Caelereth, there is a net gain or loss in ‘energy.’  On the other hand, when an object changes form within Caelereth, there is simply a redistribution of the energy that already exists.  If a bolder is broken down into rubble, the energy that made up the form of the bolder is separated into smaller pieces (the pebbles).

I think these two statements read together give rise to a number of inconsistencies:

2) "All objects coming into existence passing through the Void" --> What objects? Doesn't this apply only to the moment the Disk was created? After that, anything that is in the world is just a recycled form of a something else on the Disk. So there really isn't anything passing to and fro the Void on a regular basis. When a body dies, it decomposes, feeds the earth, and grows into plants etc.

Unless the brownies have a concept of soul as something that leaves this world after the death of the body (instead of returning to the world)? That's the only traffic I can see moving between the Disk and the Void. But that raises the question: Is the soul related to the life force? - in which case it would have no reason to pass out into the Void since, as you write, the life force is a separate pool and one that exists/originates within the Disk rather than outside it.

So, I don't think the brownies really observe it "thousands of times a day", even if they happen to live right on the border with the Void.

3) Is there something akin to the "Conservation of Voice" principle of xeua links? I think this is needed. If there is a net loss of energy every time something exits out into the Void,  the Disk would be out of balance. The same holds true for the opposite. I propose we make it a law that whenever something enter or exits through the Void, there is a corresponding departure or entry of equal measure which happens automatically. Kind of the Disk keeping itself in balance.

This would also introduce an interesting consequence - and a limitation on Memnoor magic, which I feel is needed. Every time a Memnoor mage bring in strands of his elemental force through the Void to create something/a spell effect, a corresponding amount leaves the Disk. This would mean the Memnoor use their magic in moderation by necessity. Every time they cast magic, they are indirectly causing energy to be unravelled out of something else.

What do you think?


Quote
The Memnoor believe that the magic they possess is the ability to pull raw energy from the Lloieheh into Caelereth and shape it into a desired form, in essence creating a desired effect or object from scratch.

Quote
The Seven Schools of Magic correspond to the seven forms of raw energy acknowledged by the Memnoor: Air, Earth, Fire, Lightning, Metal, Water and Wood.  Each of these energies, (hereafter referred to as ‘forces’) is found in equal abundance in the Lloieheh and require equal amounts of skills to weave.  When summoned by theirselves, a force may only produce rather basic effects associated with it.

4) Okay, so Memnoor magic really sounds like a form of raw magic with an elemental mindset. They are essentially working with strands of pure energy - even though they can't handle the original, "unprocessed" form but rather slightly more "qualified/processed" (from quality: see my Carall lecture) versions they identify as the seven strands.

I really appreciate the fact that you realised this could potentially be over-powerful and introduced a very neat natural limitations in the form of geographical distance from the Void . Good thinking!  clap2

I would also make drawing these strands out of existing objects not only forbidden (on account of the danger it poses to the Disk) but also extremely taxing (perhaps even life-threatening) for the mage. Otherwise it is too open to abuse (and thus catastrophic consequences for the whole Disk), even if we are talking about cute little brownies.  I don't believe forbidding something, however good the reason, is ever enough to discourage large masses of people from doing it. That's why legal systems figured out quite early on that it is not enough to have crimes, you also need punishment.

Sure, even with their own life at risk, there might be a few foolhardy brownie wizards who try to cast magic out of range and draw strands from existing entities - but the magnitude of the personal risk would greatly reduce the number of dare-devils. It would prevent the following scenario becoming common place: "Darn! Another rift just opened outside my window!? **** those little vermin mucking about down South!" Yet it would also keep open possibilities for lore and tales! Maybe in a moment of great desperation or in a heroic attempt save xyz, some Memnoor mage of lore attempted it etc.


5) Given that brownies are rather tiny, how much of this force can they actually store in their body for casting? Is amount a mage can draw from the Void not related to physical size? (I just had this funny mental image of a brownie mage the size of a field mouse with an aura the size of Texas  lol )

If so, can they really pull off these "raging infernos" you mentioned? Or is that a "raging inferno" from a brownie perspective, strictly speaking? ;)


6) Multi-element mages: One of the reasons we did not allow Ximaxian mages to master several elements is because a development decision was made that we did not want them to become walking gods and that at any rate we wanted to preserve the "elemental feel". If people could command more than one element, we wouldn't really have "water" mages or "wind" mages any more but a plethora of hybrids.

Now I think the "overpowered" complaint might not apply here, given the geographical restriction. Is this breadth idea new - or is it an old concept that brownies be able to use more than one school?

At any rate, it is a different system of magic altogether - so no reason why it should stringently follow the "aesthetics" we designed for Ximax ;)


7) Strand-sensing / aura-sight: This was actually an issue I was about to bring up as a discussion question in the Commandments thread. From the very beginning, it was established that carall cannot be seen or even sensed. Ohmodhal was supposed to be an exceedingly rare ability. This was something historically I've always had trouble with. The more I thought the less practicable it seemed to me. I can accept carall not being seen (even with "the eyes of the mind") - but how can they (Ximaxian mages) manipulate the stuff if they cannot even sense it? Funny enough, after 7+ years rather vehemently arguing against this, inspiration just hit me today (again in the shower! maybe I should start living there?). I think I may have found a way to make Artimidor's original concept work and explain/rationalise it.  cool

Once I open that discussion question and we, that is: the team as a whole, make a development decision on it for Ximaxian mages, we can discuss whether the same limitation should also apply here.
 

Quote
When thought about at the most basic level, the Brownie mage is serving as a substitute of sorts for the Ethereal Void. 

8) Nope, not as a substitute for the Void but for the membrane between it and the Disk, which regulates the passage.

9) Oh - and there were a few cases of missing "not"s. As in your saying "xyz is abc" when you actually mean "xyz is NOT abc". I can't seem to find them now. Maybe when you read through the text again, you can keep an eye out for these typos?


Overall, very well though out! Kudos to you and Rookie! I especially loved the concept of raw void energy and life force as two separate pools overlaid on one another:

Quote
Unlike the other forces, which are seen as only existing in the Lloieheh, Life force is believed to spring from another pool entirely and thus is subject to the restrictions of the other Six Schools.  As evidence for this claim, the Memnoor argue that unlike the other elements, which can only be created from scratch when they are drawn from the Void, life springs up all over Caelereth.  Thus, it must come from another source.

+1 aura!

This other source is not thought to tie in intimately with the fabric of the Caelereth, but rather exist almost as a layer built on top of and capable of interacting with it.  When a mage shapes Life force, he is in fact drawing from or altering energy from this other pool.  Thus, he does not alter Caelereth itself, simply a force that coexists with it.  Life magic, therefore, is not seen as having the same potentially harmful effects as the other schools and has been allowed to be practiced all over Caelereth.


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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #2 on: 18 June 2011, 06:39:04 »

1) Ah alright.  I'll get on changing that.

2) I think I just poorly worded that section.  What you describe is what I'm trying to say happens everywhere else on Caelereth.  Objects break down or are built up to create new objects, but no pure new forms are constructed.  At the void, however, objects have the ability to leave or enter the world, meaning they can be completely broken down into elemental strands or constructed from raw energy.  Does that make sense?

Not sure about the concept of soul.  We'll have to wait for Rookie to answer that one.

3) I like the idea of having a conservation of voice.  The only problem with the idea as a limitation is that Memnoor supposedly use their magic frequently in their every day life.  Rather than having craftsbrownies they apparently just magic up things as they need them.

What about if when the Brownies were looking to make a new object, they gathered up a bunch of corpses, rubble or trash, and throw them into the void to release raw energy into the Lloieheh and then take what they believe to be an equal amount of energy back out?

It could also be used to repair objects as well.  If something breaks, you throw the broken pieces back into the Void and then construct a new one using your magic.

4) I like that idea

5) I was actually thinking about this and I thought it would be best if Brownies were able to hold a relatively large amount of energy.  My reasoning for this is that since its Brownie magic, I want the Brownies to be best at casting it.  Since the Seven Schools accept members of other races, if how much aura you could hold was determined by physical size, the Brownies would be the worst casters of their own magic.

6) I understand that Multi-element mages are extremely powerful which is why I tried to make them extremely rare.  What if I bump the numbers up so that 1/64 can do two elements, (1/64)^2 can do 3 ect.  Is that rare enough?  If not I can increase the rarity even further.

7) Brownie string sensing and Ximaxian sensing of the Oh'mod'hal are extremely different.  For one, they are two different systems of magic.  The Brownies don't believe in an invisible magical web that exists parallel to the world of Calereth.  Instead, they believe that everything is made up of concrete, physically present strands of energy fashioned in particular forms.  To compare it to a terran analogy, a Brownie getting schooling to hone their mind so that they can see elemental energy is no different than a biologist learning to use a telescope to see molecules.

8) will fix that

9) I'll look for that as well

10) Thanks for the compliment!  :)

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« Reply #3 on: 18 June 2011, 18:02:15 »

Oh Drasil, that's so much to read, it will take some time till I can come to it, not this weekend, I fear, but hopefully Monday or so. Then I can answer your questions about the Void/VOID also, and other concerning that cosmological stuff.

I see already now some differences how we perceive the void, not the border between Caelereth and the 'nothingness', but the 'nothingness' itself. It is - as I understood the concept of the elves(Artimidor), not just another world outside Caelereth.  But I will come to this later :)

Edit: Just a hint. from the void entry (which I would like to update one time ;) )

Quote
Mystical region, interpreted as an unreal apparition of the transition of the existing world of Caelereth and the realm of infinite possibility and un-reality. In the elven interpretation the Void is the place where the existing world enters the thoughts of the Dreamer of the Universe.
« Last Edit: 18 June 2011, 18:12:49 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 22 June 2011, 01:41:49 »

Hi Drasil, hope this helps, sorry, if it is a bit quickly written down.. visitors coming:

---> I don‘t think, that your magic is affected.



I did a (lingual) definition of the  while I set up the Model:

Quote
Definitions:

Void = The Etherial Void, the sphere of an undefined thickness which is the border between the VOID (nothingness) and the atmosphere of Caelereth

VOID = nothingness in which the sun and moon moves and which stretches infinitively.

Well, a nothingness which stretches infinite may be contradiction in itself...


We can look at the Void in three ways (more are not necessary now)


1.Santharian Elves view
2.Developer‘s view (mine sketched this case)
3.Brownie view


Santharian Elves view, out of historical reasons (concerning the site itself and a lot of entries)

I can‘t find it right now, but I based my (dev-) view of the void on it, so let it sketch me right now. Of course, there can be others.

2. Caelereth is a bubble of life, with an atmosphere, ball shaped, in the middle sits the disc. Around Caelereth is - Nothing, not a vacuum, for a vacuum you can grasp (mentally) , a nothingness not. A Nothingness you cannot understand. In this nothingness are the moon and the sun, two other, tinier bubble of existence, which are somehow tied to the big bubble. . That‘s not very cute, I know, but I have no other solution. I have called that nothingness VOID

Between that sphere of Caelereth and the VOID is the voidshell, a sphere of undefined thickness (say, 100+ strals, or less, or more? Does not really matter.

What this sphere is is not known - as dev view I would say, space and time are warped, the strangest phenomena can occur, timetravel, you name it. Could well be pure energy, though I don‘t know, if a Caelerethian would say so (but I‘m no Ximaxian mage as you are, so it is up to you)
Well, I want to use the void for a number of phenomena...

So, back to your Brownies. There has to be a strong, strange magic to enter the void. Maybe Aeruillin itself (the landscape?) provides an entrance? Or entrance is not  always possible? Maybe the void has to have a certain .. Condition, shows a colour, and only then an entrance is possible for the mages? That needs to be discussed.

Principally the brownie area is in the void shell, how big it is, or the void shell, doesn‘t matter, as space and time are anyway warped. So it could be inside 1000strals long and not resch into the Nothingness. I think this concept has the most possibilities, the Brownies could even live in another dimension and have contact to Mythe  --> http://www.santharia.com/places/mythe.htm

You can draw your strands from that energy.. I haven‘t read your submission properly yet, but will do it as soon as possible, though  no fear, I might not be able to comment much ;)  . Need to add my last part of RM first though before RL takes over.

But I would like to read it now, grrr...

Of course I'm open to other proposals also, just saw a glimpse, that ypou stretch the territory along the void.. I need to read your stuff ;)
« Last Edit: 22 June 2011, 01:43:54 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: 22 June 2011, 07:51:11 »

Thanks Talia!  Based on what you said, I think the Brownies would live adjacent to the area you define as the "Void-shell."  So they'd technically still be on Aeruillin but would be on its very edge.

As for the Brownies being able to use their magic to enter the Void, I hadn't considered that.  As of right now, it doesn't factor into the magic and Tribe overview I laid out, but me, you and Rookie could discuss the possibility.  

Also, does anyone have any ideas for a name for the "Conservation of Voice" principle?  I'm stumped. 
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« Reply #6 on: 22 June 2011, 16:05:29 »

I thought all my Santharian life long, that the Brownies lived IN the voidshell, but well, there is just on mentioning of this I found



THE MEMNOOR TRIBE (AEOLIAN BROWNIES)
The Ro-memnoor tribe, known as Memnoor to other races, lives just within the Etherial Void on the continent of Aeruillin.

Bluetwine: However it happened, he eventually found his way to the continent of Aeruillin, and was taken in, like many refugees before him, by the Memnoor tribe of Brownies at the edge of the Ethereal Void.

she dropped out of the Seven Schools of Magic (Memnoor settlement, inside the edge of the Etherial Void, Aeruillin continent) due to her inability to focus on anything for long periods of time.

At the edge of the Void, where the Memnoor Brownies live, reality is quite malleable


Somehow I have the impression, that living within the voidshell is less dangerous than along it , maybe the conditions are more stable.. ;)


Edit:

Quote
So they'd technically still be on Aeruillin but would be on its very edge.

It is not really the edge.. Aeruillin is drifting into the void, in former times it was huger, so you could say, that "the ground" continues in the void. Maybe the brownies would push the void back in places?
« Last Edit: 22 June 2011, 16:09:45 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: 23 June 2011, 01:19:13 »

I reread the entry about the Etherial Void, and here is it:

Quote
The Void is a place where dreams can and do come true, but precautions must be taken. Anything can be imagined into existence, but to become permanent the imaginings must be made fully real by magic. Otherwise they will vanish as soon as the one imagining is no longer paying attention. Aeolian Brownies imagined their settlement just inside the Void, but anchored it firmly to the reality of the world. Vigilance must constantly be kept as impossible creatures sometimes wander in through the Void, coming from other worlds, occasionally causing havoc. It is said that some of the stranger creatures found in Santharia and other places are descended from creatures who had thus wandered in.

This and the image with goes with it is what let me think that the Brownie settlement was within the voidshell. I think that this entry is still valid and the idea beautiful designed, and quite old also, as it is from Greybark. I would really love to revamp it, once the moon is done. I don't know, where the other idea of 'just outside' came from. Many of those entries are old also.

To your questions:

1)   Does the Void have a definable edge?
2)   Exactly what does it look like?
3)   We were planning for the Brownies to live along its outskirts/outside edge.  Would this be physically possible?

1) No, according to the entry above. I myself imagined it often to waver, to expand into the desert for strals and then to retreat.

(The nothing mist to the south seems much friendlier to the infrequent visitor, filled with a soft light coming from the nothing-mist itself. Most of the time this mist is either motionless or swirling gently, and travellers feel warm and safe inside.)

2. A wavering mist,  like an upcoming sandstorm perhaps, but often softer also, a wide range, but nothing substantial, nothing you can touch.

3. Only with magic. Why do you not take advantage out of those two possibility and add them. Let their be a town in a certain area, maybe stretched out long, which is very near to that phenomena. Let your town be at the border, part of it in the reality, or nearly, the other half in the void.

Some days, when the void is wavering towards the desert, the town vanishes completely in it and is not accessable with normal means, just magic, at other times it is clearly visible and normal Brownies can enter it without much problems and magic means. At times it could look like a fata morgana, and you can't reach it. It may even occur at times, that it is relocated. What about this?
« Last Edit: 23 June 2011, 01:21:04 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: 23 June 2011, 08:11:32 »

Thanks for the help Talia!

Though I know it pains you, a good amount of the information currently provided about the Memnoor tribe is going to have to be removed as it has been decided that it is no longer possible.  Brownie cross breeding with other races, a multi-racial society and the ability to make people grow and shrink have all been removed, for example.  I was well aware that the Memnoor settlement is currently listed as being just inside the Void.  The point of my question was thus to gauge if that was even possible.

I personally really like your idea about the Memnoor settlement being sometimes visible in Caelereth and sometimes engulfed by the Void!  If Rookie is okay with it, I'd like to use that model for the location of the Memnoor settlement.  I'm also glad you liked my idea of a long-ways stretched settlement.   :)

Now if I could only get our ever elusive Brownie Expert to come out of hiding and join the discussion...  :P
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« Reply #9 on: 24 June 2011, 04:33:19 »

I knew that would happen, Drasil, and it is not so, that I'm categorical against any changes, even if they are drastic. I only want would like to see, that such things which have to be changed are not changed lightheartedly, but well thought through,  discussed over (and over) until they are perhaps abandoned, that nothing is changed without need, but that there are true reasons for it. 
There is most times a roundabout, if one is willing.  But of course some times things have to go also.

I'm glad you like my idea!  :)
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« Reply #10 on: 24 June 2011, 04:48:21 »

Drasil, could I just point out that your size coding at the start of the entry says "14pt." rather than "14pt" and so displays as [size=14pt.]Memnoor Magic[/size] rather than Memnoor Magic.

Ath.
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« Reply #11 on: 24 June 2011, 06:33:05 »

Whoops.  That must have been accidentally switched back when I posted this.  I'll fix that now. 
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« Reply #12 on: 12 September 2011, 14:51:17 »

I didn't realise the Memnoor Brownies were being worked on.  This should be interesting. :) But I see that the last post was months ago, so hopefully it hasn't been abandoned.   undecided

Regarding multi-elemental magic, I actually gave it some thought way back when I was working on my old entry.  You don't have to use it if you don't want to (and I'm guessing you won't since you've already come up with your own system for it), but basically my idea was that the mages would learn individual spells rather than entire elemental systems.  So if a mage knew, say, 5 spells, there could be 2 from one element, 2 from another, and one from a third.  That would have enabled multiple elements without making them overpowered compared to single-element specialists, I think, as well as giving them a rather different flavour from Ximaxian mages. 
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« Reply #13 on: 13 October 2011, 04:12:42 »

I haven't completely abandoned this.  I'm still waiting for Rookie's comments, though she seems to have gone MIA.  I'm also back at school now so my life has gotten infinitely more hectic.  I'll probably get back to this around the holidays.
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« Reply #14 on: 13 October 2011, 04:17:34 »

Yay, it's a Drasil! cool

Maybe PM Rookie and see if you can activate her having a look at this one  grin
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