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Author Topic: Masterwork: Mapping and Overview of Cyhalloi  (Read 11476 times)
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Mina
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« Reply #30 on: 22 October 2012, 21:05:00 »

Just thought of something regarding the orcs.  Their myths might not need to say anything about how they got to the island; they could believe that they had always been there.  The War of the Chosen supposedly broke up the continents, so it might even be true, assuming that part about the War of the Chosen is true.  And if Cyhalloi was joined to Northern Sarvonia in the past, it might have been somewhat warmer, so the orcs might have myths about that. 

Also, do you think it is possible to have another port in the western part of the continent, maybe somewhere in the southern islands?  The distance between the eastern and western end of the continent seems to be about as long as the distance between Northern Sarvonia and the western end of Cyhalloi.  So rather than sailing all the way to Waning Island in one go, I think if it was possible at all sailors would probably try to find somewhere along the way to stop and resupply, which would eventually develop into a port itself.  Lockette itself sounds too dangerous, but maybe one of the other islands has a suitable bit of coast? 
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« Reply #31 on: 24 October 2012, 03:42:51 »

Hi Val, I skimmed over your submission, but surely missed a lot. So if I now start commenting, it is as if I don't know, what follows, but this way it is easier for me, takes less time.

I will surely mix up things you should change, because it eeds to fit to the rest of the world and just ideas I would find fine. If you don't like my proposals/ideas, just mention it and we can talk about it.


-OVERVIEW-
Cyhalloi is Caereleth's northernmost continent and can be found about a times voyage from place, being the closest and most commonly used port by the natives that make trade with Sarvonia.

I admit, I don't understand your first sentence, is there something missing? Or do you still need to fit in the durage of a voyage and the name of a place?
Edit: Read Mina's comment, obviously you still need to fill in names etc.


It relates in size to Akdor, also being one of the smaller continents of Caereleths, composed of an upwards of eight sets of islands and isles, and is roughly a third of the size of Nybelmar.

We have always called it a continent, but is it not more an archipelago like the Polinesian archipelago? So of course you would have to call it first a continent, for that is the common denotation, but tell the reader, that it is not a true continent, but a group of islands. And that the name should be Cyhalloian Archipelago.

Crude definition of continent: The narrowest meaning of continent is that of a continuous area of land or mainland, with the coastline and any land boundaries forming the edge of the continent.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent




This land is a cold and seemingly desolate place to outsiders, where the moon dominates the sky and the Void seeps out into the dark seas lapping at the northern and eastern shores. Due to the constant snows and ice, and the unyielding winds ripping across the continent, most of the grounds here are barren and unsuitable for crops. It makes survival much more complicated in this frozen wasteland, yet life can be found even in the most severe conditions. Nowhere else is the moon larger, brighter, or more revered and hated than it is here, upon these islands. For this reason, it is believed that the mythical Ulvur stalk the forests of the northernmost mainland, Folasch, their secrets hidden deep within the forested canyon there.

Nice description!

I think it is required that you mention, which tribes are lving here. But don't write too much and try to keep it in the same good style


-LOCATION-
On the map, Cyhalloi is can be found northeast of the motherland of Sarvonia, east of the Icelands and directly north of Yamalquain. It takes about a span of time to sail to Winking Moon Port from somewhere, and amount of time from somewhere else.

Yamalquain is not yet known, only rumours, so better don't mention it at all. Rumours should not have a place in the 'scientific' description of an entry.

I'll think about the time a ship will need from Remusiat or from father south


That port is where?
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« Reply #32 on: 27 October 2012, 16:16:01 »

::@Mina::
Honestly, I don't exactly remember why I changed the spelling of Queprur. Probably something to do with their worship of the Goddess, and the fact that they see her in the light that the elven culture sees her in. Maybe I just thought I could get away with it. Dunno. Though, I do like the way Qu'prur looks better than Queprur. Changing the spelling back isn't a issue, and I'll do so. Easier than BSing well enough to use apostrophes with reckless abandon- and, if I remember correctly, there's already one set of islands with too many apostrophes.   >.>

And! It's never too late to suggest changing anything!!! grin

"Salén'Phýr" I got straight out of the Styrash dictionary, literally copied and pasted the two words and stuck a apostrophe between them. If the accents should be the way you say, then I will change it as I am not elven language savvy.

I did, and probably still do, significantly underestimate the size of all of the islands that make up Cyhalloi. It is hard for me to get a grasp on the areas and how much I can put into them when I don't know the square miles or, really, any solid numbers telling me just how big the areas are. I'm not very good with looking at a map and being able to judge the distances, especially when there is no distance measurement guide (or whatever that little measurement bar is called) on the map. I only have other continent maps to compare it to, and when I did that, Waning Moon Isle seemed particularly small to me. Thank you for the rough estimate of its size, and I'll be sure to fix that part as it is particularly unlikely for a port city to take up 125miles of space.

As for the orcs- they're called three different things in the entry because I couldn't figure out which one I liked better, or which was most acceptable. Chuut, if I remember correctly, means... vermin? Or something like that? Inuk for rock (since Dorolak is largely a rocky island with little else on it... like the rock trolls, for example). Emesz is... fire? Right? Which would keep true to the initially implied nature of the orcs by... I-forget-what-his-face-name-was... So... I don't know, I was just trying to come up with a good name for them and was having a hard time of it since I'm not orc-savvy at all. And I have absolutely no intention of calling them Doro-orcs since I personally think it sounds silly. angry
It is true that my description of orcs iiisss pretty prejudiced sounding, but I really do want them to be particularly inbred-- "lower' orcs, if you will. I kind of wanted them to be the backwater hillbillies of Cyhalloi that survive mainly on their hardy constitutions and dumb luck, I suppose. Or at least, that's what I remember my intentions for them being. When I revamp the section, I'll try not to be so harsh on the orcipops. And before I get to doing too much with them, I'll be sure to read a bunch (if not all) of the Orc Tribe entries so I can get a better feel for the race.

As for the Ulvur and the Moon issue, I'll do my best to elaborate on that a bit more. At the time, I had assumed it would be obvious to everyone- but it was silly of me to do so, especially since newbies onsite would not know the same information about the Ulvur as I do unless they were to actually have read about them beforehand. And such things should not be assumed.

Since I am revamping the Kasumarii, I am integrating all the changes I would like to make to the tribe into this entry as it is the primary source of information about Cyhalloi. Shade Clerics are what I would like to change the Dark Priestesses to, since they don't reeaally have temples or anything like that. I'm still kind of figuring all that out. Once I have the geography of Cyhalloi down-pat then it will be exponentially easier for me to lay out a bit more about the Kar'ii- though I'm trying to keep the basics of what is already there.

What you said about the tundra and tree growth is a very good point, and I'll revamp the entry to accommodate the information that you've provided me. Honestly, I hadn't thought that far into it and was just keeping the basics of what was already laid out for Cyhalloi- which had a forest on the northern part of Guldor where the Ice Elves resided in their Ice Towers. The picture for the Tundra entry is what birthed the Dying Ice Ridge, really, and the angle of the picture will make more sense to me with the forest down by the southern coast as opposed to the northern. The towers will remain, the trees, however, will have to move. Perhaps a forest of icy stalagmites would be appropriate for the area, since it is so far north and close to the void- or whatever reasons seem fitting.

Geography is hard for me (and orcs even more-so), and I really appreciate the help. Thank you, Mina.
« Last Edit: 27 October 2012, 16:21:03 by Val O´Neil » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: 27 October 2012, 19:38:50 »

Actually, I was going to suggest changing Queprur's name even more, so that it's not so obviously related.  Like I said, I don't know what you've planned for their history, but if the current timeline is still more or less valid, then they've been separated from Southern Sarvonians for about 2000 years, which is more than enough time for their language and names to diverge quite a bit, especially if they've been influenced by other tribes.  It's possible for gods with rather different-sounding names to get identified with each other, like the Roman and Greek pantheons were. 

By the way, has your Kasumarii revision been posted anywhere?  I tried looking for it but didn't really find anything. 

The Styrash accents (except è) represent stress, which gets shifted around a little in compound words.  It's nothing important, just a minor detail.   :)

For distances, what I do is to first find some distance than can be directly measured, such as something on the Manthria map.  Then, I get a ruler and measure it on the world map. 

Edit: I don't know how much this helps, but making some estimates based on my previous measurements, it seems that the distance between the northern end of the Deity Isles and the southern end of Lockette is close to (give or take a few hundred miles...) the north-south distance of Africa, which Wikipedia gives as 5000 miles.  However, this is based on the world map, and on closer inspection, it seems that the islands are spaced much further apart from each other on the world map than in the more detailed maps posted earlier in the thread. 

Another edit: The 5000 miles distance above appears to be incorrect.  I might have accidentally included the island group to the north of the Deity Isles as well, but I don't really remember. 

I'm no expert on Kh'omchr'om, but according to the dictionary, chuut means "blood relative", inuk means "rock", and emesz does indeed seem to mean "fire", though it's not on the site yet.  But, unless the orcs only arrived quite recently from Northern Sarvonia, I recommend going with something different and keeping Kh'omchr'om within the Northern Sarvonian orcs.  I see that in your dev schedule you called them the Griemn-oc, which I guess comes from the name of the god Griemnpor.  Doesn't feel very orcish to me, but maybe something could be derived from it?  How does Gharengukh sound? 

The elves don't necessarily have to be restricted to the north, do they?  Although that would make them one of the few elvish tribes that don't live in a forest, which is good.  The stalagmites idea sounds pretty interesting too. 
« Last Edit: 02 November 2012, 20:50:31 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: 31 October 2012, 05:35:47 »

Can you put the map in the first post, Val? So that everything is contained in there and we don't have to search for information throughout this thread? Organization of the entry is better now than when it started, but it's also difficult for me to see what changed since the last time I checked the entry as there are no passages marked. Or where exactly you still have questions. Maybe check the latest comments and try to fix some more things mentioned there, gather questions you might still have, and then I'll make a final check and try to work through where you're still unsure. We should try to finally get this ready once and for all. Doesn't need to have all the details now, but we should see that the basics are covered, so that we can then expand from there later.

BTW: Also agree with Mina that the name "Qu'prur" is still very Santharian, and it might be very different in Cyhalloi, even if it might have similar roots. We're literally continents away from southern Sarvonia!
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« Reply #35 on: 31 October 2012, 19:19:25 »

http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15033.0;attach=4044;image

Some very rough distances for you, Val, didn't have enough time to convert them (at least you don't have to print it out)

1  Reference: Cape Strata - Deep Winds Portal ---> 11250 strals -------> 500 points

2 Cyhalloi NW-SE  290 points
3 Cyhalloi NE-SW  312 points
4 65 points
5 80 and 60 points
6 140 and 70 points

7 Remusiat -->  70+260 points
8 Carbrand --> Isle 190 ; Isle --> Cyhalloi  120

How you can calculate the strals you find here
http://www.stuff.santharia.com/distances/distances_calculation.rtf

Please note, that my tool was quite inaccurate this time, but measurement in Santharia would not have been more exact either. You should not use strals anyway, more guess, how long it would take to get from one place to the next, look here:

http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,12613.msg150662.html#post_Cael

You need to find out still, how long ships travel for a given distance, always depending on the weather anyway.

Remusiat has an open port for half a year at least, due to volcanic activity in the bay, but the ships will probably not be able to travel to the south for more than 3 months, I guess thiswill apply for Cyllahoi also. The open water months will probably be July, august, September, if we assume the maritime current model (only in submission stage). That means in short, there will be warm maritime currents from the south in the summertime which will melt the ice and allow ships to travel to the north.

The main port is Carbrand from the Kanapan, if I recall it correctly, I don't think, that there was one planned in the Hovel Front. And Remusiat may be.

I hope I get some more time to look through your stuff.

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« Reply #36 on: 31 October 2012, 19:22:40 »

To Queprur: Will this change? (From the belief entry)

Quote
The Kasumarii have a unique religion, which reflects the importance of fighting in their lives. The worship of Queprur is the only remnant of the culture they initially came from, all other Gods of the Kasumarii are completely their own. Unique in their belief is especially that nowhere else the Gods of Darkness are seen so eminently good as here.

If this should stay, then I think Qu'prur is not a bad option.
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« Reply #37 on: 31 October 2012, 20:44:23 »

Val, would you like to write the Nybelmar overview next?
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« Reply #38 on: 01 November 2012, 13:40:03 »

Quote
You should not use strals anyway, more guess, how long it would take to get from one place to the next
Probably.  But that doesn't mean that developers shouldn't know the distances, since that's an important part of calculating travel times.   :)

The direct route from Remusiat seems unlikely, since it goes straight to the orcish territories.  Possibly, they would sail down to Carbrand first.  At the moment, I don't think any ports other than Carbrand would be going directly to Cyhalloi, since it involves sailing across a large stretch of open ocean without stopping to resupply, and Carbrand is the closest.  Well, maybe Remusiat could take a northeastern route and island-hop to the Deity Isles, but unless there's a Kasumarii trading post there or some other reason for Sarvonians to visit, it seems unlikely they'd go there. 

As for travel times, it seems to depend quite a lot on the type of ship and the wind.  Going by the distances Talia provided, and the speeds mentioned here, I'm guessing the travel time from Carbrand to Lockette is about 5-10 weeks, depending on the various conditions that could affect travel time. 

For comparison, going by Christopher Columbus' Wikipedia entry and some measurements on Google Maps, he crossed about 3500 miles of ocean in about 5 weeks.  Although it's not stated in the entry, my guess is that this is towards the high end of possible sailing speeds, due to the Trade Winds. 

That said, what sort of trade goes on between Sarvonia and Cyhalloi, and how frequently do you intend the Kasumarii to be trading with Sarvonia?  It looks like a pretty difficult trip, so unless there's some valuable trade going on, I suspect it's probably not the sort of journey that people would make very often. 
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« Reply #39 on: 02 November 2012, 17:40:29 »

Quote
But that doesn't mean that developers shouldn't know the distances, since that's an important part of calculating travel times.

Mina, therefor I provided Val with the Strals, or a means to get them easily.

I didn't propose any route, I just gave some distances. I didn't know, where a relevant port is, or if there are more than one.

From what is there, any other distance can be calculated or even guessed, which might be enough.
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« Reply #40 on: 02 November 2012, 20:17:08 »

I guess I misinterpreted what the lines on your map was supposed to represent.  

Anyway, regarding routes between Cyhalloi and Sarvonia, I made a very quick map showing the two I was talking about in the last post, as well as one more I thought of later.  The coloured texts show approximately how much open ocean would have to be crossed.  

If sailing conditions are the same for all three routes, which isn't necessarily the case, the red route would probably be the safest, since it's divided into smaller and probably more managable chunks.  There's about 2800 strals of open ocean to cross in total, but also quite a bit of sailing along the coast and within island groups, so it's probably the slowest of the routes (again, assuming conditions are equal).  Also, like Talia said, there's the issue of the sea being frozen for long periods of time.  

The two southern routes are fairly similar.  They are probably frozen over less often, and shorter in general, but require much more non-stop sailing, which can be difficult.  Of the two, I'm not sure which is more likely.  Carbrand looks like a larger and more important city, and seems to have better access to inland areas via the river next to it, so it probably attracts more trade.  Margith is closer, but looks to me to be more like the sort of port that ships stop over at while on the way to somewhere else.  Which doesn't necessarily make less important as a port, although the fact that it is less prominent on the map suggest that less important as a city compared to Carbrand.  Well, if a ship sails to Margith, I'm guessing it's probably likely to head to Carbrand after that; I'm just wondering if ships sailing to or from Cyhalloi might choose to skip Margith entirely.  

Edit: Talia, what method did you use to find the distances?  I just noticed that, according to the numbers you gave, the distance between Carbrand and Lockette would be about 4275 strals, which is quite different from what I calculated.  I got my distances by first measuring the distance between Lorehaven and Klinsor on the Manthria map, which seemed to be close to the east-west distance of Waning Island, and using that to calculate the other distances on the world map. 
« Last Edit: 02 November 2012, 20:37:13 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: 10 November 2012, 06:18:40 »

I assure you I am working everything out, little by little, and have read and re-read all of the comments thus far. Everything has been very helpful, thank you very much guys. However, my progress on this will once again be slowed down just a tidbit more as my computer turned itself off while working on this the other day and has, since, been little more than a giant brick. So I have been reduced to borrowing my friend's laptop when I'm around him. Right now I do not have time to respond to all of the comments, but rest assured that I have taken them all into account and am applying them accordingly. Again, thank you all very much.

And, yes, Coren. Sure. But I have the Kasumar'ii to rewrite as well after I am done with this monster. :P
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« Reply #42 on: 06 August 2014, 18:03:16 »

It's been a billion years- I'm sorry....

I cannot stress to you enough my extreme dislike and ineptness at math in general. Anyways--

I placed a port called Ludor, mentioned in the Storm Cloaks entry, which they will use as their own personal port 'Guild' city, so to speak, for trade with other continents and as their base of operations. I was thinking that I would place it upon the island just northeast of Lockette, since I had originally intended for neither of those islands (Lockette or the smaller one adjunct to it) to be approachable by ship. However, if you honestly think that that is too far as well I won't mind changing it over so that Ludor is upon the little spit of land just southwest of Lockette. It's not a big change for me, and I leave it to the discretion of the folk more savvy in seafaring than I.

Also, I have changed Waning Island up a bit so that it is more of just a city than a port, one that they do not just freely allow insiders to enter. I'm thinking that Ludor will be the only place that they really let people freely wander into, as it will be a trading port. As for the goods that they'll trade- I suppose that I'll have to figure that out by refreshing myself on.. every... little.. tiny... eensy.. bit of information on the Kasumarii that the site has to offer. However, the Storm Cloaks entry states that they trade in skills and services as battle ships and such. But I am sure that I can figure out other things for the Kasumarii to trade- after finally making contact with Sarvonia and, I'm sure, realizing the importance of trade with the continent in the ways of supplies as to ease their living in the harsh climate, I'm sure they can come up with a few products that world would desire. (especially since they will have no money and will work strictly upon a barter system)

There will also be no travel to the Deity Isles. Perhaps some kind of artifact quest can be composed there, but I intend on the Kasumarii being incredibly superstitious about that particular set of isles due to the stories of the Totem from the people who have visited the place. No one in their right mind wants to be subjected to the whims of the deity living there- or whatever it may be. Perhaps I'll be able to figure that out at a later(ish) date.

I will add the Ulvur into the Races section shortly.
« Last Edit: 06 August 2014, 18:06:13 by Val O´Neil » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: 08 August 2014, 02:25:02 »

Good to see progress here, Val!  thumbup It's been quite a while since I read this, but I'll have a closer look again over the weekend... Stay tuned!  grin
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« Reply #44 on: 09 August 2014, 16:25:45 »

OK, had a closer look at what we have here now, so here some comments:

- I see no problem with Port Ludor northeast of Lockette and make Lockette not approachable by ship, sounds perfectly fine. Same with Waning Island, after all it's your vision how you figure things should be :)

- The latest updated version of the map methinks can be found on page 2 of this thread, which you posted quite a while ago, Val - however, I notice a few things missing. For one Port Ludor should be on it, and also the name "Deity Islands" cannot be found on it (described as being located west of Folasch). The name "Tuttinbu" (the whole island group located there) is also not in the entry, so I'm not exactly sure about what is what. Should be cleared up and made into a final map version. Also what in the entry is referred to as the "Ice Plains" in the Description part as caption is the "Frozen Bay" on the map, so entry and map should use the same names.

- Also, speaking about maps: When reading through the entry, especially the "Races" section I also thought it would be extremely helpful to have a tribe/race map eventually that marks where which tribe/race can be found so that you have it all on one glance for easier orientation.

- In the first sentence there's still a distances thing to fill out... Also in the Location section...

- You mention the "Hiding" up there in the entry, which is explained in the Mythology section. Would suggest to add at the first mention in brackets "see Mythology section", so that the reader gets a bit more context.

- To fix:

Quote
A little further north one might think the ice is thick enough cross to on foot, as no cracks are apparent and the heavy snows often hide any fractures in the ice.

This is called the "False Bridge" and... (we usually us quotation marks in cases like this)

The Kasumarii call this place "Nexus"...

Fishing here, they say, is a fruitless endeavour, presumably because the currents near the surface are too strong and quickly whisk away anything...

Northwest of Nexus lay mountainous ice cliffs that rise up...

called "Que'prur's Palm"...

The small island of Waning, also known as "Winking Moon Cove"...

This port city sits at the middle of the island and spans about an eighth of its entirety...

Que'prur's Necklace (and further down as well, just search for "Qu'prur")

Stormcloaks [...] Cragdash [...] SpearHead (for some reason you write these names in uppercase in the middle, which we usually don't do)



Okeydokey, read through most of the entry now again, especially of course the updated parts, and it looks excellent! What's  there also looks already pretty complete as far as I can see as well - there's always room for further additions or sub-entries if you want to add more details here and there, but basically all important Places, People etc. are covered I'd say. :) So yeah, with fixing the few things I've pointed out and adding what you still plan to have in, this should head in the right direction - to be uploaded more sooner than later and make you an official Santharian member, Val!  thumbup

Aura +1 at any rate for picking up the project again and turning it more and more into a truly exemplary entry on how such a major Places contribution should look like! Great work, Val!
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[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]

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[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]

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[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]

[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]

[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]

[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]

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[02 September 2016, 04:06:03]

[02 September 2016, 02:44:27]
Members
Total Members: 1038
Latest: kenn3th40
Stats
Total Posts: 144680
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 60
Online Ever: 226
(06 November 2012, 05:38:23)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 43
Total: 43

Last 10 Shouts:
14 September 2017, 09:40:04
Hello all! It's been a minute since I poked my nose in here. Can't remember if I ever did anything useful.
09 May 2017, 14:17:18
Ah, too bad that internet is so restricted in China, Ferra. Can't be much fun surfing the web that way if Big Brother's watching you... Hope you enjoy your stay nevertheless!
03 May 2017, 17:41:19
Hi, dear Arti and other developers!

This year I am in China and cannot use any Google services including YouTube. For this reason I stopped uploading new Nepris videos. I can also not read any comments there.

It just crossed my mind that this information might be useful to you.

Cheers

F
26 March 2017, 12:48:56
Hello to anyone that might read this. :)
22 December 2016, 02:38:16
Merry Christmas everyone!
29 November 2016, 01:45:48
Hey all!
11 November 2016, 09:19:02
Calling all developers; come help me write the New-Santhala article ^^
15 September 2016, 02:24:10
Still no problems here, Erutan...
14 September 2016, 14:55:28
Still having trouble accessing the RPG side, anyone else? Or is it just me?
27 August 2016, 21:17:33
Short note: We had a bit of downtime Friday/Saturday night due to a server change. Site went online first, message boards took a while longer - now everything should be back to normal.
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