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Author Topic: The Styrásh Language  (Read 6483 times)
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Mina
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« Reply #15 on: 22 October 2011, 17:04:30 »

Hmm, I'm still not so sure.  Here are a few more examples:

Present Active: The bird that is flying
Past Active: The bird that was flying
Present Passive: The thing that is being stolen
Past Passive: The thing that was stolen

Which participle form would be used for each one? 
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #16 on: 22 October 2011, 17:34:37 »

Erm... I'm really no language expert, so don't ask me about any technical terms and such. But to me as a language amateur present/part participle appear as if they are used as adjectives, which exprese time. Like "the flying bird" or "the stolen thing". Active/passive forms are something very different I'd say and would need to be handled quite differently.

Again, the examples given on the site apparently add more to the confusion, so I'd recommend to steer away from them, as they are not accurate.
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« Reply #17 on: 22 October 2011, 17:48:18 »

I was specifically asking about how they were supposed to be used in compound words, since the examples on the site suggested that you already have existing ways to express those meanings.  But if they are no longer accurate, I'll try to come up with something myself. 
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« Reply #18 on: 24 October 2011, 11:19:41 »

This has been an entry I’ve been meaning to go through since it was first posted, and I have been terribly remiss in getting to it. But having found some time in this quaint little October evening, I have finally had a chance to go through it.

Let me first say what a fantastic task this entry is, and what an amazing job you’ve done, Mina! I cannot imagine how much time and effort you’ve put in--and it shows! It is thorough and clear--complete with helpful examples and tables. Incredible!

In terms of general comments, and in relation to some of the brainstorming I’ve noticed going on, I would suggest breaking this entry up a little. Take it from a volunteer ESL teacher--language is hard! It may be worth it to separate the larger entry into smaller ones based on part of speech. From there you might break down the verbs into categories. Just a suggestion that I think might help, not only those learning, but those navigating--not to mention for you, as the writer!

Any quick-references you can provide are always helpful. I had all but printed out Arti’s conjugation and declination charts while I was writing my Styrásh poems.

Forgive me that my comments are a bit desultory. If there’s anything I can do to help, please let me know!



Stress
I have some requests when it comes to stress, brought about, to some degree, by your mentioning metrical requirements in poems. Take it from one who’s tried--the nature of Styrásh stresses makes it extremely difficult to pattern - mostly because, unlike Tharian, both articles and pronouns are stressed! I wonder--and this may need Arti’s input--if this requirement may be lifted. That much stress in any language--if, indeed, we’re speaking of metrical/poetic stress--is a bit unrealistic.


Prepositions - Dative/Ablative
This would also encourage further explanation of one of the areas I was having trouble understanding: declination of the object of prepositions. It seems that, depending on the preposition or the object of the preposition, a different form may be used. For example (and these are all guesses, hence the question mark):

She sings for the people = Dative (?) - and if I understand correctly, for (í) would not be used? (Aleát ná sóh rhaemíam instead of Aleát ná í sóh rhaemíam, such that this statement is the same as “She sings to the people”)
She sings at the people = Dative (?) - And this does take the proposition for at (ác), so it would be Aleát ná ác sóh rhaemíam - which would be what “She sings to the people” would look like, too, if the “to” were used in the dative case.
She sings with the people = Ablative (?) - This does take the preposition for with (é), so it would be Aleát ná é sóh rhaemíam.

He spoke to the bird = Dative (?) - and again, this sentence would not include the proposition to (ác).
She went to the forest = Ablative (?) because it marks a location?

Perhaps it might be helpful to mark out what form is used for what preposition in what cases. i.e.:

about: dative
above: ablative?
across: ablative?
after: ablative?
against
along
amid
among
around
at
before
etc.

To make things additionally clear, it may be helpful to mark each function of a case (i.e. for ablative: “Objects of locational prepositions”, etc.)

I notice, too, that the proposition for “for” (í) is exchanged with “at”/ “to” in one of your examples (“Jraelát nó énh galnosían ác énh sýs dainá” as “He threw stones for (at/to) two days”). This is also used in Eophyranté naí ác mè dainá? (translated as “On which days do they hunt?”) instead of “foár” (on). Is this a particular form used for time-related things?

Also, for addresses, would the vocative case be used for proper names? If someone were addressing me, would they say “Alýr” or would they say “Alyrthé”?


Adjectives
The noun/adjective conversations are great! We should definitely add this somewhere where people who are developing new vocabulary can see it. Very helpful!


Pronouns
I love the chart! I think a column may be off, though (it looks like nés is in the Dative row rather than the Genitive row!). In any case, the breakdowns of all the pronouns in their cases is extremely helpful, and will come in handy.

I’m not sure if this is the place for it or if it should go under the “Genitive” section, or perhaps the adjective section (possessive adjectives)--or maybe all three!--but it might be useful to get an explanation of how to use the genitive pronoun. I notice from examples that this pronoun comes before the article of the noun its modifying (his cat - nés só feníl). Though on closer observation, maybe it would be best to have the genitive possessive adjective actually replace the article? If it’s taking a possessive adjective (his, her, etc), it would seem to already be definite (“the”, or só, sá, etc.). Though of course the possessive adjective/genitive pronoun would not mark plurality or the gender of the modified noun...

Also, it may be worth noting that the gender of the possessive adjective/genitive pronoun is of the one possessing, nor the one being possessed. Just suggestions!


Sentence Structure
Just to confirm; if a subject is included, is it most commonly found next to the verb; however, adverbs of the kind using “with” (é) may not be found next to the verb they’re modifying. Most one-word adjectives, like “together” (uás), generally do follow the verb they’re modifying. Does this sound right?

In this case, where does the negative (néh) or affirmative (áih) fall in relation to the verb and adverb, and might it be possible to have these cases flank the verb on the left rather than the right? This would allow for ease of use, I think, in spoken, such that one-word corrections might be used--i.e.:
Néh vaiát nó uím?” (Does he not see us?)
Áih.” ([He] does [see us].)

Just an idea!


Compounds
The different between adjective + noun and compound noun here is very helpful!


Questions
Brilliant! I have been waiting for a structure for asking questions (I have half-written stories where I tried to figure out how to ask questions and did so very poorly). I love the ideas you’ve come up with! I wonder, though, if “mé” is to replace the article if it should not also have gender/number variations--perhaps at least the latter, with “méh” being the plural version. Though it strikes me now that you may have had a reason for not having variations of this word.

I assume that this word may be used as sort of one-offs for basic question words--these will of course vary depending on whether they’re subject (nominative), direct object (accusative), indirect object (dative, ablative) or possessive (genitive):
mè áey = who
mè aéh = what
mè ranthá = why
mè dainá? = when
mè ... ? = where


Caustative
I love the causative conversations!


Relative causes
I love the forms of tú and tuís!


Again, Mina, my applause and an aura from me. This is an impressive entry--though for your sake, I really want to encourage breaking it up, or else you’re going to end up with a monster of an entry!--and one not easily accessible to those trying to write in and understand this rather sophisticated language! I'm afraid you may end up burying yourself, and I don't want you to get mired! If you need help breaking it up, let me know, but please please please don't let this (as a single entry) swallow you up!  heart
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Mina
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« Reply #19 on: 24 October 2011, 18:45:34 »

Quote
Take it from one who’s tried--the nature of Styrásh stresses makes it extremely difficult to pattern - mostly because, unlike Tharian, both articles and pronouns are stressed! I wonder--and this may need Arti’s input--if this requirement may be lifted. That much stress in any language--if, indeed, we’re speaking of metrical/poetic stress--is a bit unrealistic.
I'm not very good with stress, but I think that if a word has more than one syllable, the tendency is for one of them to be relatively more stressed than the other(s).  Of course, a single-syllable word has no other syllables (within the word) to be compared to, so marking stress on it is quite redundant, but I'm just going along with the current practice on the site.  

Edit: I should probably explain this more clearly.  My guess is that the accent marks the most stressed syllable(s) of a word, whether or not it is considered stressed when compared to all the other syllables in the sentence.  Don't know if that really works; like I said, I'm not very familiar with stress.  Anyway, I do agree that it would be rather odd if function words (at least, the single-syllable ones) are stressed at the sentence level.  It would give many sentences a sort of staccato feel, which I doubt is what's intended for the language.  (I suspect Styrash is actually meant to have French-like stress patterns.) 

Quote
She sings for the people = Dative (?) - and if I understand correctly, for (í) would not be used? (Aleát ná sóh rhaemíam instead of Aleát ná í sóh rhaemíam, such that this statement is the same as “She sings to the people”)
Assuming you mean "She sings (to someone else) for the people", I think you might need to use í indeed.  That was a scenario I overlooked.  I'll rewrite that part.  

Quote
She sings at the people = Dative (?) - And this does take the proposition for at (ác), so it would be Aleát ná ác sóh rhaemíam - which would be what “She sings to the people” would look like, too, if the “to” were used in the dative case.
If you mean "She sings in the direction of the people", it would be in the ablative case.  On the other hand, the English sentence could also be interpreted as meaning "she sings while being at where the people are" (though that's a somewhat odd interpretation).  Styrash seems to have this ambiguity too, as ác apparently means both "at" and "to".  Since there is already a word for "towards" (ách), perhaps ác should be changed to mean only "at".  

Quote
She sings with the people = Ablative (?) - This does take the preposition for with (é), so it would be Aleát ná é sóh rhaemíam
Yes, this would use the ablative case and é.  

Edit: Just made a slight change to ablatives.  Now accompaniment doesn't use é, and instrument does.  It felt a little more logical to me. 

Quote
He spoke to the bird = Dative (?) - and again, this sentence would not include the proposition to (ác).
She went to the forest = Ablative (?) because it marks a location?
Yes, that seems right.  Regarding the second sentence, "forest" is the location towards which the action (go) is directed, ie. the destination of the action, so it uses the ablative case.  

Quote
Perhaps it might be helpful to mark out what form is used for what preposition in what cases. i.e.:

[...]

To make things additionally clear, it may be helpful to mark each function of a case (i.e. for ablative: “Objects of locational prepositions”, etc.)
It might be helpful to think of cases (or the dative and ablative cases, at least) as being a sort of preposition, though that's not entirely accurate.  As you can see from the examples, each English preposition roughly corresponds to either a case or a combination of case and preposition in Styrash.  

Quote
I notice, too, that the proposition for “for” (í) is exchanged with “at”/ “to” in one of your examples (“Jraelát nó énh galnosían ác énh sýs dainá” as “He threw stones for (at/to) two days”). This is also used in Eophyranté naí ác mè dainá? (translated as “On which days do they hunt?”) instead of “foár” (on). Is this a particular form used for time-related things?
Ah, the simple reason would be to avoid having them be a literal translation of the English sentences.  More specifically, time is treated in a somewhat metaphorical way in both languages.  For example, "on which day" seems to use the metaphor of the day as an object that the action takes place on (imagine if the question was something like "on which table").  For Styrash, I decided to go with a slightly different metaphor and treat the time as a place instead.  Perhaps I should have said something about it in the entry.  

Quote
Also, for addresses, would the vocative case be used for proper names? If someone were addressing me, would they say “Alýr” or would they say “Alyrthé”?
They would probably say Alyrthé, eg. Soorá iú quí, Alyrthé "I'm speaking to you, Alýr".  I don't think proper names are a problem for cases.  For example, there's the famous Latin line Et tu, Brute?, where Brute is the vocative form of the name Brutus.  

Quote
I think a column may be off, though (it looks like nés is in the Dative row rather than the Genitive row!).
It is?  shocked It appears in the genitive row on my computer.  Does anyone else see it misplaced?  

Quote
I’m not sure if this is the place for it or if it should go under the “Genitive” section, or perhaps the adjective section (possessive adjectives)--or maybe all three!--but it might be useful to get an explanation of how to use the genitive pronoun. I notice from examples that this pronoun comes before the article of the noun its modifying (his cat - nés só feníl). Though on closer observation, maybe it would be best to have the genitive possessive adjective actually replace the article? If it’s taking a possessive adjective (his, her, etc), it would seem to already be definite (“the”, or só, sá, etc.). Though of course the possessive adjective/genitive pronoun would not mark plurality or the gender of the modified noun...
This was mostly just another attempt at not replicating English syntax.  :D I don't really know if it's plausible, but if I remember correctly, there are languages that use articles even where English won't allow it.  The other reason was for consistency with when the possessor comes after the possessed noun, eg. Só feníl só dél'áeyís.  The possessive is really more of a phrase than an adjective; it might help to translate it as "of (possessor)", eg. "of the mage".  

Quote
Just to confirm; if a subject is included, is it most commonly found next to the verb;
Actually, I intended for the word order to be relatively flexible, so the subject doesn't need to be next to the verb.  I used a verb-subject-direct object-indirect object order for most of the entry to be consistent, but if it's causing confusion, maybe I should change it.  

Quote
however, adverbs of the kind using “with” (é) may not be found next to the verb they’re modifying. Most one-word adjectives, like “together” (uás), generally do follow the verb they’re modifying. Does this sound right?
Well, the "é + ablative noun" phrases are really indirect objects, though they do have an adverbial meaning.  

Quote
In this case, where does the negative (néh) or affirmative (áih) fall in relation to the verb and adverb, and might it be possible to have these cases flank the verb on the left rather than the right? This would allow for ease of use, I think, in spoken, such that one-word corrections might be used--i.e.:
“Néh vaiát nó uím?” (Does he not see us?)
“Áih.” ([He] does [see us].)
That's a good idea.  I did consider putting the adverb in front of the verb, so that it would be more consistent, but the existing information on the site does say that verbs come first in a sentence, so I decided to be cautious and put them behind the verbs instead.  On the other hand, the site doesn't really say anything about adverbs, so I'm alright with changing it so that they come before verbs, as long as Artimidor and the other Styrash authorities don't object to it.  

Quote
I wonder, though, if “mé” is to replace the article if it should not also have gender/number variations--perhaps at least the latter, with “méh” being the plural version. Though it strikes me now that you may have had a reason for not having variations of this word.
Nothing very serious; I just tend to be a little conservative when it comes to inventing new function words.   is a preexisting word, and gender and number are already indicated on a noun so no information is lost by not having variations of it for gender and number, so I didn't see the need to invent any.  

Quote
I assume that this word may be used as sort of one-offs for basic question words--these will of course vary depending on whether they’re subject (nominative), direct object (accusative), indirect object (dative, ablative) or possessive (genitive):

[...]
I'm not quite sure what you asking here.  Basically, I didn't intend for there to be direct equivalents of the English wh- words (well, maybe some dialects do have them, but not the language as a whole).  For example, ác mè dainá can loosely be translated as "when?", but it really means specifically "on which days?"; a different unit of time would require some other word, eg. ác mè hajthé "on which month?".  

Quote
Adjectives
The noun/adjective conversations are great! We should definitely add this somewhere where people who are developing new vocabulary can see it. Very helpful!
Quote
Caustative
I love the causative conversations!
Quote
Relative causes
I love the forms of tú and tuís!
Thanks, but most of those were Anwulf's ideas.  I mostly just came up with the examples.   :)

Quote
I'm afraid you may end up burying yourself, and I don't want you to get mired! If you need help breaking it up, let me know, but please please please don't let this (as a single entry) swallow you up!
The entry is almost finished, actually.  The main concern I have about splitting it into many entries is that it would be more inconvenient for users.  But if the length of the entry is intimidating enough to outweigh the advantage of having everything on one page, I guess we could split it up.  What do you think would be a good way to do so?  

(I did also suggest having a sort of quick reference page, containing just the various tables without all the lengthy explanations and examples.  It'd be more for people who are already somewhat familiar with the language, of course.)  


By the way, do we currently have a way to make reciprocal statements, such as "they annoy each other"?  
« Last Edit: 26 October 2011, 03:03:06 by Mina » Logged

Mina
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« Reply #20 on: 01 November 2011, 05:33:37 »

I think it's about done now, so the title and icon has been changed.  I invented the word senés for "between"; hopefully it's alright. 

It seems that there's quite a lot of words that don't follow the stress assignment rules I took from the current principles page.  I'm not sure if it's the dictionary entries that are incorrect, or if the rules need to be modified. 
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« Reply #21 on: 04 November 2011, 05:44:44 »

I'll try to put up pieces of this updated entry in the coming update, so that we have progress on the site in this regard as well. Perhaps it makes even sense to split the entry, e.g. make an own entry for Styrásh Nouns, comprising also declination and details on cases in general. We'll see how far I can get. I plan on starting with putting this one up as well at any rate.
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