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Author Topic: Again this old problem... *cries*  (Read 2115 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« on: 07 March 2012, 17:41:51 »

..which I tend to forget.


Quote from Ranks and Titles:

Quote
While the King in the ancient kingdom of Tharania was used to be selected by his predecessor, thus making him a family member or an adviser for example, the Santhran is elected among the Thanes of the provinces in the so-called "Thanemoot", a gathering held usually shortly after the Santhran's death. At rare occasions, when the time of death of the regent is obviously imminent or the Council of the Linked Hands sees the necessity to elect a new Santhran, the Thanemoot will take place while the Santhran is still in office.

It occured already when we plotted the recent succession, it is now the same.

So... either we make each new Santhran not necessarily related to the old Santhran, or we add something to the above part, which says, that it has not always been like this, but that the heir of the Santhran had only to be acknowledged by the council, especially in the golden age of kings...  or that the rule was introduced later...or I have to rewrite a great part.

I asked this at another place already - is the first child of  the Santhran automatically given a province? So that the thanes are able to choose 'one out of their midst'? Was it the  one where Santhala lies, was it Eyelia at the times after Santhros?
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #1 on: 08 March 2012, 03:38:23 »

Well, the way I see it the position of Santhran was initially hereditary. Until 172 a.S. This is also clearly stated in our history outline we made during Santhmoot (I've stickied the thread now BTW, so that you can easily find it). This sketchy information I've made into the following detailed event, which you now find in the history table on the site:

Quote
172 a.S. - Power Shift to the Council of Linked Hands
The Council of Linked Hands, so far active only in an advisory role to the current Santharian regent, is forced to take charge of the unique situation that the kingdom has lost its last ruler. The Council now has to decide on the succession directly, and while doing so establishes the Council itself as a more powerful tool to keep most of the actions of the newly assigned king in check. One of the reasons why the following centuries would result in a "Golden Age of Kings" is actually due to the circumstance that the Council representing all main races has more power than before, resulting in decisions which are better balanced than through direct order of a king. It is also established that upon the death of the next ruler the Council has to convene again in order to decide on the successor.

In that thread you also find that the first king of the Golden Age invented the term "Santhran", and probably also the title "Thane", thus the kingmaking meeting most likely received the name "Thanemoot" then. I assume that a king could suggest a successor to the Thanemoot, even a son or a daughter, but that the Council would need to approve that suggestion with a clear majority. This is a better system than the hereditary one, however, corrupt kings could still make sure to get enough votes on their sides by bribing council members, though it's not so easy anymore.

As for the province of Santhala: That would be Sanguia, consisting mostly of former Eyelian territory, yup. It could be tradition that the new Santhran also holds Sanguia, and delegates the province to a relative. Doesn't necessarily need to be automatic, though.
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #2 on: 08 March 2012, 08:00:28 »

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Well, the way I see it the position of Santhran was initially hereditary. Until 172 a.S. This is also clearly stated in our history outline we made during Santhmoot (I've stickied the thread now BTW, so that you can easily find it). This sketchy information I've made into the following detailed event, which you now find in the history table on the site:

I thought so too, but as my quote from above is still on the site as it is, I thought it might overrule that. We should change that in the ranks and titles entry,  be more precise with when this became valid. And eventually, make it less strict. (see below)

Thanks for making it sticky, that's better to find for every body else, though it is the first link in the sticky which had been there already. I have been working with it permanently ;)

Quote
Quote
172 a.S. - Power Shift to the Council of Linked Hands
The Council of Linked Hands, so far active only in an advisory role to the current Santharian regent, is forced to take charge of the unique situation that the kingdom has lost its last ruler. The Council now has to decide on the succession directly, and while doing so establishes the Council itself as a more powerful tool to keep most of the actions of the newly assigned king in check. One of the reasons why the following centuries would result in a "Golden Age of Kings" is actually due to the circumstance that the Council representing all main races has more power than before, resulting in decisions which are better balanced than through direct order of a king. It is also established that upon the death of the next ruler the Council has to convene again in order to decide on the successor.

That's a good paragraph, though I would not make it this strict as you describe it in the last sentence. If we keep it like this, than any royal line is nonsens, for a really active Council will choose someone out of it midst (a thane) and not necessarily a child of the old Santhran, even if it holds that title also.  

I would formulate it a bit more moderate:

The Council has to convene and confirm the heir the old Santhran, be it a son or a daughter or a nephew. Only if no close relative is here, if the king has not chosen one, the Council convenes and chooses one of the thanes as new Santhran. Normally. Of course a council COULD just say no, but that might mean war.

Quote
In that thread you also find that the first king of the Golden Age invented the term "Santhran", and probably also the title "Thane", thus the kingmaking meeting most likely received the name "Thanemoot" then. I assume that a king could suggest a successor to the Thanemoot, even a son or a daughter, but that the Council would need to approve that suggestion with a clear majority. This is a better system than the hereditary one, however, corrupt kings could still make sure to get enough votes on their sides by bribing council members, though it's not so easy anymore.

If you describe it like that, then the heir which the Santhran suggests needs to be Thane (of Sanguia?) and that does not fit entirely to what we have on the site so far:

Quote
the Santhran is elected among the Thanes of the provinces in the so-called "Thanemoot"

That suggests that it is a "free" choice, that every other thane has the same chances as the son of the Santhran.

When the title Santhran was introduced is already in the text (of course I found it ;) ) , but I could add the part of the thanemoot also.

Quote
As for the province of Santhala: That would be Sanguia, consisting mostly of former Eyelian territory, yup. It could be tradition that the new Santhran also holds Sanguia, and delegates the province to a relative. Doesn't necessarily need to be automatic, though.

I thought Sanguia is only the recent province and it took some time for the provinces to change. At the time I currently describe, Serpheloria still exists and Eyelia also.

Maybe  every Santhran holds the province around Santhala i itially, but gives it to his firstborn child, which inherits it with the birth already, and gets responsible for it with 20? Then the formality of "they choose one out of their midst" is done justice.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2012, 08:02:55 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 08 March 2012, 13:08:40 »

Well, if I remember correctly, the Holy Roman Empire elected its emperors, but towards the end, it became de facto hereditary with the elections simply confirming the heir of the previous emperor.  Perhaps this is how it works in Santharia too, so that the Ranks and Titles description doesn't have to be changed? 

Alternatively, as far as I can tell, the Santhros royal line pretty much disappeared until some time in the 1400s, then retook the throne in a revolution some time in the 1500s, so if we don't want the electoral system to be continued at all to the present, this could be when it was abolished. 

Quote
Maybe  every Santhran holds the province around Santhala i itially, but gives it to his firstborn child, which inherits it with the birth already, and gets responsible for it with 20? Then the formality of "they choose one out of their midst" is done justice.
I think this works.  Maybe we could make it so that when a Santhran is elected (I assume this position is for life, so he's not going back to being a Thane again), his heir inherits his province and becomes its Thane. 
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« Reply #4 on: 08 March 2012, 19:02:57 »

Thanks for the input, Mina!

I slept over it and I think it will only work out in a good way, if we say, that this rule was only partly valid in the last 1600 years. That there were times, when the thanemoot was strong and choose one out of their midst, not necessarily taking the son of the Santhran, and on the other side, when the council had no power at all and everthing between.

I would the strict rule introduce at a later time, don't know yet when though. It could be applied in the time of the great kings, I will come up with something.

 When we keep it as it is, then there is no real reason to look forward to have a descendant from Santhros. Why should it be, if there is no real wish to have a royal bloodline. If the people want to have someone out of the bloodline of Santhros, then they want to have one of his children also. And not a thanemoot which maybe decides otherwise after the death of that one man.

I would propose not to change the ranks and titles entry right know, but later, when it is clear , what happened when.
 
Would it be ok to bend it in this way?
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« Reply #5 on: 09 March 2012, 01:03:39 »

I'd say yes.

I'm a firm believer in making things workable for what we want/need today.
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« Reply #6 on: 09 March 2012, 04:04:20 »

Provinces
According to our rough timeline it looks like provinces indeed formed much later, differing from the original concept. The borders of the provinces probably began to shape with the power centers forming around certain cities during the Clerical Age (610-825). So I guess we can assume that until then the kingdom borders still were more or less in place, and provinces equalled former kingdoms. In these 6-8 centuries things changed somewhat and eventually resulted in the altered provinces borders. So in this scenario Eyelia would still be the province of the Santhran.

Thane Province
The Thane province idea sounds fine with me as well. So the Thane always has the central province, and once the desired heir is old enough he/she gets it automatically. Thus, in case of an early demise of the Santhran, the province still belongs to the royal family, but then the Thanemoot will decide on its fate, as it does when it chooses the Santhran. The question of course is what the Thanemoot will do when the Santhran only left a three year old child or so...

Thanemoot
Yes, we can shift the focus there in terms of kingmaking. Makes sense. We can have it that way that the Council primarily is meant to confirm the succession of the royal family, and that its main function (aside from an advisory role) is to represent the safety net should there be problems, e.g. no heirs, mad son etc. I would still consider to give the Santhran the option to specify his heir, so that in case of a weak, sick or mad firstborn he can still ensure his line by suggesting someone else from the family.

Of course there are times in Santharian history where the Council takes over (that's actually how it was created!) and goes for a different king, there might be even bad times when several kings are either ousted by the Council or the line is abandoned due to circumstances. But the prevailing idea would be however to find a strong line, which can be continued. This obviously is rarely the case, and that's why the people long to get back to the glorious times of Santhros when the line was still strong. And eventually the Santhros line will be back and fulfill this need.

The role of the Thanemoot of course can be questioned and redefined during the centuries. Some might interpret it: We can vote on whoever we want, we are the people! Others can take a more conservative position and try to maintain stability by emphasizing that it is necessary to find a strong consistent line. So opinion can be divided on the subject, and there might even be open crises due to the subject, why not? :) Gives us a good opportunity to stir things up - and that's just what we need to make history!

So feel free to make suggestions of what to adjust or add where in existing event entries, Talia, I'll then put it all in when I add the history part you are writing now.
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #7 on: 09 March 2012, 07:22:14 »

Thanks Art! I will go ahead and try to integrate as much as possible from the Council makes the King idea!
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