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Author Topic: Attack on Ximaxian Privilegs, Decision Help Needed  (Read 1908 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« on: 23 January 2013, 19:35:31 »

Hey magic wielders!

As you all know by now, I' trying to write some history. One of my tasks from here


Quote
King II (Cultural King) ---> Lysarian
- First steps from a patronized system to a guild system, mainly to control magical power, first official dependencies of Ximax are instituted in other major towns, testing and teaching
- Standardization of Currency ("Golden" Age)
- Major Stormcloak expansions (see Stormcloak entries, need to be adjusted, mainly king II+III)
- Copying and spreading of scrolls, sharing knowledge between artisans, musicians, painters, scribes etc., thus improving cultural understanding, leading to more efficiency by teaching each other about new techniques.

I'm thinking here on magic only, for other guilds are already established and right now I don't know, what to do in this direction. So to magic:

If there is a system of guilds, which is working, then educating children only in Ximax makes not much  sense.  So, magic schools elsewhere?

Please look at what I have written for now, WIP of course, a mere rough sketch for now:


236
An explosion caused by uncontrolled magic destroys the village of yyy
That disaster is only the top of several fatalities (?) which were occurring throughout the country through the use of uncontrolled magic within the last years. The citizens are blaming the Academy in Ximax for the loss of lives and property and demand that they are protected from the Ximaxian slipshod way. Not much is done though to change the situation.

237
Santhran Lysarian is severely hurt on his way to XXX, when a bridge collapses while he is crossing over with his carriage. Apart from several bruises he breaks his two legs and hurts his head.  An accompanying mage realises, that failing magic was the cause. The bridge was not only built with the help of magic, but its bearing strength fortified with magic also instead of the only use of the proper craftmanship of a stonemason. The Santhran is brought to a nearby castle, the graven of..xyz And stays there for several weeks, until his severe headache ceases and he is able to travel again.
 

238
Santhran Lysarian initiates a meeting of Ximaxian authorities, several in magic interested noblemen and two representatives form the fymbels association and the Mashdai Traders each. He demands, that the practising mages who travel the land or are generally working outside from Ximax found a guild which will prevent sluggish, irresponsible work. The guild is meant to control the work of their members, set standards, etc.. (need help with that!)  An incentive to forming guilds is the promise of the Santhran, that is a decent education is granted, the senior mages are allowed to accept magic apprentices. Ximax is from then on not the only school of magic anymore, though still the most famous one.

238
Xxx is born, son of xyz , who claims, that Lysarian is the father. He never acknowledes the child though.


240
The Guild  ' (Ximaxian?) Magic  Enterprise'
After two years of negotiation between the representatives of Ximax, the mages working outside of Ximax and the deputies of the Santhran the  laws for a guild of mages are fixed and laid down in a document, signed by each party. Within a year in each province capital a Ximaxian depency with the structure of a guild has to be established , in each other major town within five years. Every mage working outside of Ximax is urged to join the guild. Within the next years the magic guilds live up to their high set standards  and mages who are not a members of a magic guild have soon problems with getting hired. The most famous guild house is the 'Santhala Magic Enterprise'.



« Last Edit: 28 January 2013, 21:24:11 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 23 January 2013, 21:49:48 »

Argh, how did we miss this when we were doing the history of Ximax?   buck

An organisation for regulating magic use does seem to make sense in a united Santharia, and I can even see Ximax being in favour of it if they think they could play a major role within it.  However, I'm a little confused about the mention of Ximax no longer being the only school of magic.  I thought that there were already other magic schools; at the very least, didn't Fox put one in Thalambath or something like that?  Magic has been around for much longer than Ximax, so it seems like it might be a little strange if the Ximaxian founders were the only ones in South Sarvonia who came up with the idea of having a school for teaching magic.  

Also, as far as I can tell, guilds seem to historically have been unrelated city-based organisations rather than national organisations with branches in various cities.  And I'm not sure if "mage" is really a profession either; I've always thought of it as more of a term indicating that a person can do magic.  Maybe it could be called something else, like an order?  "Order of Magic" sounds rather nice to me.  Have the religious orders been founded at this time?  

Edit: Oh, yeah, we've discussed the possibility of Lysarian creating some sort of kingdom-wide guild before.  Totally forgot about that.  I still like the idea of possibly having a mage equivalent of the Orders though.   :D
« Last Edit: 23 January 2013, 22:01:53 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: 23 January 2013, 22:20:45 »

What would I do without you, Mina !  hug

I totally forgot, that there are 'other' magic doing people also, apart from witch magic, wild magic, druidic magic. Thalambath.

Well, then the guild should not be a Ximaxian decendency as we pinned it down back then (I'm not sure, if Thalambath magic was thought of when we met), but a more general. But then Ximax's influence would definitely be smaller than just having some Ximaxian governed places.

I really don't know, if there are Ximaxian schools outside of Ximax *thinks hard*. Everbody goes to Ximax!

Maybe there were schools in old times, but when magic was banned after the war of the Chosen (that is a bit far back though) there were probably no schools allowed. I have to check some dates...

Is there anything written on site?
Maybe there were schools around, but not organised and they produced those mages who did a bad job? Therefor the guild has to be introduced?

I think a guild could be nationwide also, doesn't have to stick to a town. The fymbels are not based in a town also. But an order would be ok for me also, though 'order' rings totally different in my ears, there is always a tough of religious zealot, even if the order is not a religious one. And I can't imagine normal mages being so dedicated like orders. Thoughts? Guild+mages sounds not right also.

What about 'mage' as a profession? I'm a bit lost here, not having the feeling what sounds right or not. A new name ? Magician or wizard? Magicwielder--not good..
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« Reply #3 on: 23 January 2013, 22:23:00 »

And yes, the orders existed at that time!

'Order of Magic' hmm

Edit:

What about

Union/consortium/federation of Magicians?
« Last Edit: 23 January 2013, 22:26:58 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 23 January 2013, 22:46:13 »

Quote
Maybe there were schools in old times, but when magic was banned after the war of the Chosen (that is a bit far back though) there were probably no schools allowed. I have to check some dates...
Banned?  I thought it just became unpopular.  If magic was completely banned, I'm not sure how the Ximaxian Academy could have been founded.  And yeah, it's a really long time ago. 

Quote
Maybe there were schools around, but not organised and they produced those mages who did a bad job? Therefor the guild has to be introduced?
Hmm, yeah, possibly other schools with lower standards leading to problems.  That could work.  And maybe there were also some mages who were not associated with any school, so they weren't getting regulated at all.  But, as you mentioned, what about magic users like witches and druids?  They have a completely different style of magic (Thalambath at least has Ximax-like magic, if I remember correctly), so holding them to Ximax-style standards probably won't work.  Would the government simply ignore them though? 

Quote
What about 'mage' as a profession? I'm a bit lost here, not having the feeling what sounds right or not. A new name ? Magician or wizard? Magicwielder--not good..
What I meant is that being a mage is not really a job the way being a doctor or a stonemason is.  It just means you have been trained in how to do magic.  You could be a mage who is a doctor or stonemason or something. 
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« Reply #5 on: 24 January 2013, 00:12:40 »

Quote
Banned?  I thought it just became unpopular.  If magic was completely banned, I'm not sure how the Ximaxian Academy could have been founded.  And yeah, it's a really long time ago. 

Hmm, I always thought, that after the War of the Chosen, most magi were just slaughtered, however not ll, it seems, but these are elves.

Quote
ca. 9023 b.S.
to 9000 b.S.    Years of Cleansing
With the death of the archmages at the Battle of Winds, this makes it much easier for the combined races to throw off their shackles of servitude and cleanse the land of the remaining acolytes of human magic, and the last armies of the archmages. These years are marked by the use of elven Xeuá magic, to heal the wounds the archmages created.
Allocations: Avennorian Men ("Arrived People"); Cort'Mangar, Ruins; Sarvonia, North; Sarvonia, South
   The Years of Cleansing
The Years of Cleansing are a time in which the Injerín use their great knowledge of Xeuá magics to help heal the damages down during the War of the Chosen.
Allocations: Injerín Elves

7000 years is a long time, there has to e a change..obviously there have to be wizards again, how else could have Ximax Xuran(?) get people to help them to build the shield dome (apart from the orcs). At least from those times on, magic seems to be more accepted again. And probably there had to be a kind of teaching, at least on a 1:1 base, if not schools. So Ximax would not be the only place of teaaching for mages, but only the most renown? OR had to be sent all children to Ximax at one point?

Quote
But, as you mentioned, what about magic users like witches and druids?  They have a completely different style of magic

witchery is not officially known, druids are too different, maybe they are seen as a kind of clerical magic, though I want to take them out.

Quote
What I meant is that being a mage is not really a job the way being a doctor or a stonemason is.  It just means you have been trained in how to do magic.  You could be a mage who is a doctor or stonemason or something.

I see, that never occurred to me, I always thought this is a profession as any other, you payed a lot of money for the school..

Need to go, the sun shines in my eyes... ;)
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« Reply #6 on: 25 January 2013, 00:24:55 »

I have some new ideas, Mina, maybe a 'Order of Magic' is not a bad idea after all! :)

Thanks for your input!

Edit:

Here we are: Some ideas thrown around

Santhran Lysarian initiates a meeting of Thalambathian and Ximaxian authorities, several in magic interested noblemen and two representatives form the fymbels association and the Mashdai Traders each. He demands, that the practising mages who travel the land or are generally working outside from Ximax found a guild which will prevent sluggish, irresponsible work. The guild is meant to control the work of their members, set standards, etc..

The attending mages  however strictly decline his wishes at first, as they don't see themselves on the same level as traders and craftsmen. After several weeks of discussion an agreement is found about the founding of an 'Order of Magic'. The precise tasks of this order have still to be laid down yet, but its main goal should be the ... ?? 

The 'religious-fanatic' part I mentioned above could be the wish of severl highranked mages to make magic more respected, if not to a certain level feared in society. They want to remove the stigma of being not reliable, dangerous.. well, maybe they want tofight against macanti and other dubious folk, they want to set themselves apart. In there I could see the fanatic fire other religious or martial orders have



(standarising of teaching first, to guarantee a certain level. Then 'standardising the 'job mage' similar to what is common in guilds.

First degree:
Only members of the order are allowed to teach. So everyone who wants to take an apprentice has to become a member and has to proof his qualification.

Every other mage can apply to the order as well, he has to proof also, that he knows his craft, before he is allowed in. --> So if somebody needs a mage  and wants to be certain, that he gets quality delivered, he will take a mage of the order. There are centres similar to guild houses also in every major town , where wandering mages can rest. Theses houses have also the function of 'magic courts'  - people can come and complain about a magic work not done properly, be it by someone of the order or not. The senior mage or his 'helpers' (extra job for a mage?) have the right to administer the law in the name of the king (!)

First ideas, have to worked out in an extra entry!
« Last Edit: 25 January 2013, 01:14:09 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: 27 January 2013, 23:38:57 »

Well, the religious fanatic connotation makes me hesitate a little.  Maybe it could work, like you suggested, although I've not really thought about what the Ximaxian mages of that era were like.  It might be a good idea to get some imput from the other magic devs too. 

Anyway, I was thinking that whether we call it a guild or an order or something else, it's just a name, and what's really important is what it's suppose to do.  So let's focus on that for now.   :)

Quote
standarising of teaching first, to guarantee a certain level. Then 'standardising the 'job mage' similar to what is common in guilds.
Well, standardised teaching definitely makes sense.  In particular, it means you can have a standard method for measuring the power and skill of a mage throughout the kingdom.  I'm not so sure about standarding jobs though.  Ximax has enough mages that it could probably have some specialised magic professions, but in other cities, I think they would probably join the guild for whatever job they are doing and just follow its regulations.  Possibly what Lysarian could do is to require that guilds make sure that magical work is of the same standard as non-magical work. 

Quote
Only members of the order are allowed to teach. So everyone who wants to take an apprentice has to become a member and has to proof his qualification.
So basically a sort of certification process for magic teachers?  Makes sense, and fits into the standardising of teaching you mentioned. 

Quote
Every other mage can apply to the order as well, he has to proof also, that he knows his craft, before he is allowed in. --> So if somebody needs a mage  and wants to be certain, that he gets quality delivered, he will take a mage of the order. There are centres similar to guild houses also in every major town , where wandering mages can rest. Theses houses have also the function of 'magic courts'  - people can come and complain about a magic work not done properly, be it by someone of the order or not. The senior mage or his 'helpers' (extra job for a mage?) have the right to administer the law in the name of the king (!)
Hmm, depending on what you mean by major town, there might not be enough mages who are qualified enough to staff them.  But do they really have to be staffed by mages, or even be specifically magic courts?  I think, for complaints, they can probably be handled by normal courts, and bring in qualified mages for expert testimony and such when needed. 

Quote
And probably there had to be a kind of teaching, at least on a 1:1 base, if not schools. So Ximax would not be the only place of teaaching for mages, but only the most renown? OR had to be sent all children to Ximax at one point?
Well, probably some kind of secret informal apprenticeship immediately after the war, then more openly as magic becomes more acceptable again, and eventually formal schools start appearing.  Maybe the Ximaxian Academy is the first school after the war, maybe not, but it's hard to imagine it remaining the only school for long.  It might be possible for everyone who wants to be a mage to be sent to Ximax if the continent is unified, but that wasn't the case before Santhros.  Although Ximax was neutral for a significant part of its history, that was not the case for its first thousand years or so, and even when it was neutral, for most people (except Centoraurians during those periods Ximax was part of Centorauria), it would also mean having their mages be trained by another country.  There might be a certain prestige in being trained by Ximax, but I think most countries would want to have their own magic school if they could (and were not distrustful of magic). 
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« Reply #8 on: 28 January 2013, 05:17:45 »

Thanks Mina, I give you notice as soon as I post the next version.
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« Reply #9 on: 28 January 2013, 21:23:25 »

I think I keep the 'Order of Magic' :) , I warmed up to it, though I thought at first, that it would not work.

 I still need some help with this:

Quote
Well, the religious fanatic connotation makes me hesitate a little.  Maybe it could work, like you suggested, although I've not really thought about what the Ximaxian mages of that era were like.  It might be a good idea to get some input from the other magic devs too.

Well, I'm just thinking at some people who are really concerned, how magic is seen in the populace, who love their work and want to see a certain standard throughout the kingdom. Not as fanatic as religious fanatics can be, but kind of determined to bring the whole country on 'Ximax' level, well, that's not possible of course, but one can try.
And with the support of the Santhran, that has to work.

Quote
Anyway, I was thinking that whether we call it a guild or an order or something else, it's just a name, and what's really important is what it's suppose to do.  So let's focus on that for now.   :)

See above ! :D


Quote
Quote
Quote
standarising of teaching first, to guarantee a certain level. Then 'standardizing the 'job mage' similar to what is common in guilds.
Well, standardised teaching definitely makes sense.  In particular, it means you can have a standard method for measuring the power and skill of a mage throughout the kingdom.  I'm not so sure about standardizing jobs though.  Ximax has enough mages that it could probably have some specialised magic professions, but in other cities, I think they would probably join the guild for whatever job they are doing and just follow its regulations.  Possibly what Lysarian could do is to require that guilds make sure that magical work is of the same standard as non-magical work.


Well, the problem is, that I'm no mage... I always thought, that a mage does only magic, with so many years spent in Ximax, they have to. On the other side, if there are schools around the kingdom, the standard is not a Ximaxian one, the one or other student may have stopped learning and is able to just do one or two spells.

  idea  So far there were no schools (apart from Thalambath maybe, they may even have schools in the Santharian kingdom, but not too far up, but they are an extra chapter anyway with their secrecy), but magic was only told from one mage to his apprentice, or two maybe. No quality control! Now schools are founded by the order and every other apprentice has to go there and has to do his final tests  under the surveillance of the order. Good?

Quote
Quote
Quote
Only members of the order are allowed to teach. So everyone who wants to take an apprentice has to become a member and has to proof his qualification.
So basically a sort of certification process for magic teachers?  Makes sense, and fits into the standardising of teaching you mentioned.

Good, pinned down!

Quote
Quote
Quote
Every other mage can apply to the order as well, he has to proof also, that he knows his craft, before he is allowed in. --> So if somebody needs a mage  and wants to be certain, that he gets quality delivered, he will take a mage of the order. There are centers similar to guild houses also in every major town , where wandering mages can rest. Theses houses have also the function of 'magic courts'  - people can come and complain about a magic work not done properly, be it by someone of the order or not. The senior mage or his 'helpers' (extra job for a mage?) have the right to administer the law in the name of the king (!)
Hmm, depending on what you mean by major town, there might not be enough mages who are qualified enough to staff them.  But do they really have to be staffed by mages, or even be specifically magic courts?  I think, for complaints, they can probably be handled by normal courts, and bring in qualified mages for expert testimony and such when needed.

Right, no magic court on its own, but a member of the order has to attend the court, if magic problems are handled.

Quote
Quote
Quote
And probably there had to be a kind of teaching, at least on a 1:1 base, if not schools. So Ximax would not be the only place of teaching for mages, but only the most renown? OR had to be sent all children to Ximax at one point?
Well, probably some kind of secret informal apprenticeship immediately after the war, then more openly as magic becomes more acceptable again, and eventually formal schools start appearing.  Maybe the Ximaxian Academy is the first school after the war, maybe not, but it's hard to imagine it remaining the only school for long.  It might be possible for everyone who wants to be a mage to be sent to Ximax if the continent is unified, but that wasn't the case before Santhros.  Although Ximax was neutral for a significant part of its history, that was not the case for its first thousand years or so, and even when it was neutral, for most people (except Centoraurians during those periods Ximax was part of Centorauria), it would also mean having their mages be trained by another country.  There might be a certain prestige in being trained by Ximax, but I think most countries would want to have their own magic school if they could (and were not distrustful of magic).  

That's an argument. Ximax is not accessible for most of the magic talented..

Some brainstorming thoughts: (But something which has to be pinned down)

There is a long time between the War of the Chosen and the founding of Ximax. In the beginning there was surely just a mentor/apprentice relation, as long as magic was distrusted generally. But were there then 'public' schools ? Or did the teacher/apprentice relation just continue on?  More important, what do we have NOW (only that is of interest for me right now)  As there probably no normal schools anyway (not back then), only for the noble, rich and privileged, could there have been magic schools? What about the gifted?

HELP for a decision needed!



« Last Edit: 28 January 2013, 21:26:28 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: 03 February 2013, 23:17:26 »

Maybe magic is like medicine was. With lots of people using it all over, but then there is a school/university for scholars in Ximax. So it would be a status thing to attend Ximax, and they'd think only Ximaxians were 'real' mages.
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« Reply #11 on: 08 February 2013, 20:00:11 »

Quote
Well, the problem is, that I'm no mage... I always thought, that a mage does only magic, with so many years spent in Ximax, they have to.
Well, sort of.  Knowing how to do magic is one of their main assets, so a lot of mages probably find jobs that involve using magic to do something, or at least help with doing something.  On the other hand, Ximaxian magic is based on philosophy, so a trained mage could probably also find work involving philosophy, which in medieval times was a rather broad field, I think.  I've not thought very deeply about what specific jobs mages might do though.  Wondering if I should start a thread for brainstorming such ideas.  

 
Quote
On the other side, if there are schools around the kingdom, the standard is not a Ximaxian one, the one or other student may have stopped learning and is able to just do one or two spells.

    So far there were no schools (apart from Thalambath maybe, they may even have schools in the Santharian kingdom, but not too far up, but they are an extra chapter anyway with their secrecy), but magic was only told from one mage to his apprentice, or two maybe. No quality control! Now schools are founded by the order and every other apprentice has to go there and has to do his final tests  under the surveillance of the order. Good?
I'm not very comfortable with simply declaring that there were no other schools.  In any case, as you said, the issue is not whether there was any other schools, but the absence of quality control.  Let's say that everyone who was teaching magic, whether a school or an independent mage, set their own standards, so there was no common standard that was applicable to the kingdom as a whole, leading to quality control issues.  As for the testing of apprentices, I haven't really thought about how that would be carried out, but I think we can agree that after the reforms, they have to be able to meet the standards set bt the order regardless of where they were trained.  

Quote
Maybe magic is like medicine was. With lots of people using it all over, but then there is a school/university for scholars in Ximax. So it would be a status thing to attend Ximax, and they'd think only Ximaxians were 'real' mages.
Well, depends on what you mean by "lots".  As I understand it, magic users make up a very tiny portion of the overall population.  Although if the population is high enough, I guess that could still be quite a lot in absolute terms.  But yes, it's definitely a status thing to study at the Ximaxian Academy.  I wouldn't say that only Ximaxian mages are considered real mages, but it's definitely more prestigious. 
« Last Edit: 08 February 2013, 20:07:22 by Mina » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: 08 February 2013, 23:34:32 »

Thanks Mina !

Have a look at the Lysarian submission and tell me, if you are happy with what I wrote. I tried to describe it vaguely.
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[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]

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[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

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[02 September 2016, 02:44:27]
Members
Total Members: 1038
Latest: kenn3th40
Stats
Total Posts: 144680
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 60
Online Ever: 226
(06 November 2012, 05:38:23)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 49
Total: 49

Last 10 Shouts:
14 September 2017, 09:40:04
Hello all! It's been a minute since I poked my nose in here. Can't remember if I ever did anything useful.
09 May 2017, 14:17:18
Ah, too bad that internet is so restricted in China, Ferra. Can't be much fun surfing the web that way if Big Brother's watching you... Hope you enjoy your stay nevertheless!
03 May 2017, 17:41:19
Hi, dear Arti and other developers!

This year I am in China and cannot use any Google services including YouTube. For this reason I stopped uploading new Nepris videos. I can also not read any comments there.

It just crossed my mind that this information might be useful to you.

Cheers

F
26 March 2017, 12:48:56
Hello to anyone that might read this. :)
22 December 2016, 02:38:16
Merry Christmas everyone!
29 November 2016, 01:45:48
Hey all!
11 November 2016, 09:19:02
Calling all developers; come help me write the New-Santhala article ^^
15 September 2016, 02:24:10
Still no problems here, Erutan...
14 September 2016, 14:55:28
Still having trouble accessing the RPG side, anyone else? Or is it just me?
27 August 2016, 21:17:33
Short note: We had a bit of downtime Friday/Saturday night due to a server change. Site went online first, message boards took a while longer - now everything should be back to normal.
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