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[Amabella Catston]

Hello!   

I have a strong interest in economics, and I am currently writing a CD for a Stormcloak merchant (of the same name) on the RP side. After posting questions about the Stormcloak trading routes, Alýr/Rayne has since kindly invited me here to the development side.

My primary interest is in exploring the guild in further detail, as well as expanding on the Santharian world by writing entries for resources that a Stormcloak would have access to.  Naturally, these could be entries for trade items, but also entries for topics serving a useful purpose in a merchant's business.

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

  Welcome, Amabella.  Hope you enjoy all that the Dev Side has to offer.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Hello and welcome, Amabella!

We definitely could use some more creative forces here on the Dev board as a whole lot is going on currently, and that's really a pity. But fresh blood and fresh ideas are always welcome If you want to flesh out Stormcloaks related stuff, you're welcome, so just go ahead! 

[Artimidor Federkiel]

BTW: I saw at the RPG board that you're a programmer yourself and like managing resources and budgets, Amabella. In the long run I'd like to realize a bit of a resources managing kind of game with the Santhworld engine as well here in Santharia, at least a simple one for a start - that is after the Treasure Shoals and the Editor are done. A round based strategy game where the player can buy land, mills, goods etc. shouldn't be too difficult in its very basic components, and it can be constantly expanded with additional features. Unlike adventures and role playing games one can return to such a game again and again, and if we can eventually make it a multiplayer game this could be tremendous fun. But so far this is just a rough idea - we have scripts that can crunch the numbers, and everything else is game design

[Seeker]

Welcome Amabella. Great to see some new folks around here.  Indeed things have been slow lately but that can change in a blink of an eye in my experience here.

[Amabella Catston]

Hi Artimidor, Altario, and Seeker! 

@ Seeker - I am a fan of your work - my favorite is the city of Milkengrad. I'm guessing that this is a depiction of what the city looked like during its old days of glory? I used this picture mostly to estimate the approximate size of the bridges when I was writing my CD.  I noticed that there was a caravan of some sort which has just crossed the bridge, so I gauged that it would be very easy for a merchant to drive a heavy-wain right through to the heart of the city.

@ Artimidor - Yes, I would be interested in contributing to a game involving resource management in the future. In the meantime, I know I will have a lot of trade questions...

For example, I see that Stormcloaks prefer to get raw materials from the areas that the resources are located, but I am wondering if the trade-friendly Kanapan Cahm tribe could be useful in perhaps getting the Stormcloaks very limited and indirect access to some of the goods in the north from non-Kanapan northern races/tribes which are generally reclusive or distrustful to outsiders. Also, I would like to know if this would work as a means of accessing the northern woolly boar meat mentioned in the Erpheronian entry and in the Erpheronian boar steak recipe (hunted by Lyr'Teimor Kuglimz, perhaps?) or if the boar is already provided to the south in some other way? It would also be nice to see Stormcloaks have access to Cuncu parchment to sell to people in the South.

@ Altario - As another example, it's pretty obvious from the history that the Remusians aren't too thrilled with the idea of Stormcloaks poking their noses around the territory  Do/Could the Kanapans also provide limited indirect trading access to them (For Remusian furs, Cuncu skins for vellum, Saiph-Stones, or jewelry…there are a lot of possibilities…) Goods would probably need to be traded at Carbrand and delivered south to the Stormcloak port near Kurstir. Possibly then southern goods could be transported back up to Carbrand - Is this where the Remusian noblewomen's Carmalad-dyed clothes are coming from, or by some other means? (Of course the Kanapan Careria tribe would have worked out some deal with the Cahm tribe for this route to happen…)

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Well, I'd say it's documented that the Stormcloaks have established relations with the Kanapans already for quite a while, so indirect access to other Northern Sarvonian goods through these connections should be possible, no doubt. After all that is one important aspect of trading - to get to the rarer stuff and sell it elsewhere and make a lot of profit aside from trading with the more readily available goods. So with centuries of experience of trading with the Kanapans the Stormcloaks should have extended their reaches by now up north.

As for the woolly boar: Well, we've mentioned that it lives in Northern Sarvonia exclusively, and the primary connection the Erpheronians have with this part of the world is through the Raevalem colony (see the Thaelrin the Relentless entry, which lies in the Sarvonian NW. From there they moved further west.

The Stormcloaks on the other hand, as stated in the entry as well, cover the Sarvonian east coast (up to the Kanapans), but haven't established anything in the west. So I would say that the woolly boar most likely isn't primarily traded by these guys.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Hello Amabella,
nice to meet you! You seem so enthusiastic, that is good!

As Art said, the Stormcloaks surely can get goods from the North through the Canapans. I'm not sure, how far Altario's Remusian ships go South, but they could get Remusian and Antislar goods via Barsalon also. I'm planning (for a long time already ) to develop Barsalon as a hub (?) for the trade in the North, so there are surely trade routes from there to Carabrand.

Keep in mind, that the North is frozen for half a year, so the Stormcloaks access to it (Cyhalloi) is general limited.

I'm about to write some history and at one point (Lysarian and more) I should have included the Stormcloaks also. I have not done it so far, for I didn't know what exactly to do. But while reading about it, I found, that it is not really a guild,  at least not in the beginning. More a family business. But as Stormcloak is mentioned already in so many entries we cannot change it. But if you should think about an expansion at some point, it might be worth to mention that.

Nice research! (You have done anyway already quite a lot! )

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Good goals, Amabella.  I look forward to seeing you getting something done here.

As Talia states, I think Barsalon would be the logical trade hub for the North.  Remusian trade routes go through a pass at Dorm-nak. 

The one Trading ship, the Gryffon, does go to Carbrand, but would only make the trip perhaps once a year, due to weather, etc.


Feel free to have the stormcloaks have a suspicion about the Remusians and a lost ship many years ago.

Because of this, the Remusians have only one trade ship, the Gryffon. It is a ship based on ancient design, and lends credence to the legend that says that a ship came here in the late 1200’s or early 1300’s. The legend declares that this ship arrived, looking for trade and at first all went well. The ship brought exotic goods to the Remusians, who in turn, filled the hold of the ship with many rich furs and other Remusian goods, jewellery, stone, Saiph stones, and other goods. Whether through misunderstanding or some other insult that will never be known, things turned violent. The Remusians stormed the ship, killed all aboard, and burned the ship, sinking it in the harbour. Though there are no records, it is speculated that the ship in question was a ship of the Stormcloaks, as in that time, they were beginning to explore around the northern edge of the Kanapan Peninsula

PS  You probably didn't need the quote, as you obviously have done the research.

[Amabella Catston]

@ Artimidor - thanks for clearing up where the boar came from…I missed that entry. 

@ Altario - Yes, I would definitely like to say that Stormcloaks lost an exploration ship (stocked with trade items for whomever they encountered), but that they did not know the precise location or why it was lost, since no records survived. I would leave the Stormcloaks pretty clueless to what is happening further north, at least when they initially start exploring around the area after 1252 or so. Since the ship arrives in Remusian territory in the late 1200’s or early 1300’s, perhaps the Stormcloaks had not "discovered" the Remusians yet at that point to know who they were, or even know what they were called, and thus could not suspect them. The Stormcloaks may not have even known that the ship was planning to return with valuables. 

@ Talia - I am very much looking forward to Barsalon being defined as a trading hub that allows the Stormcloaks to have access to Northern Sarvonian goods from more tribes. 
Since Barsalon is very far inland, could access to the goods be via the Kanapans bringing goods down from Barsalon to the Stormcloak Kanapan port? The Kanapans are very controlling and restrictive about "foreign" southern trade with the north, and Cyllahoi is a relatively hostile place that would preferably be avoided for transporting expensive goods like furs and jewelry...   


These are my thoughts on the Stormcloaks so far…

If I was to expand on the Stormcloaks in greater detail, I would like to give it a similar structure as the Hanseatic League. The Stormcloaks seemed to have very similar trade networks, interest in remote goods, warehouses, and political and legal structure. Essentially, I would have the Stormcloak ports operate in a similar manner as the Hanseatic cities and kontore did, with Quios being the capital and serving a similar role as Lübeck did in the league. Since it is too late to change the name to "Stormcloak guilds" (plural) or "Stormcloak league", could I use the term "Stormcloaks guild" or "Quios shipping Guild" as a broad term to collectively describe the various guild members who resided and/or worked at the ports? That would make the Stormcloaks still not truly a single guild but rather a conglomerate of guilds much like the league was. I would still also need to modify the Stormcloak operational structure from the league in some ways to match Stormcloak history, for example having only Quios behave like a true Hanseatic free city, and have all the other ports with only partial freedom and run more like the Hanseatic kontore. Would this work?

If so, I would have the transition from family business to league/guild conglomerate occur between 809 b.S. and 751 b.S., when Drak's nephew Quios "drives the shipping guild to head in the direction that it is now", which is an intercontinental operation far too large for a single family to manage practically. I would have Quios' desire mostly to have the Stormcloaks connect with merchants in lucrative but remote markets, thus pursuing a much more Hanseatic than Florentine organizational guild structure, though I may somewhat base the guilds off of the Florentine categories. Then I could define Stormcloak Law guild, Stormcloak Cloth Guild, Stormcloak Shipbuilding Guild, etc., with each guild having various political and trade representation at the ports depending on the local imports/exports and local needs. (or maybe call each guild an art category/guild category/sub category of some kind…I'm not sure yet…)   

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Amabella, maybe we  should open a new thread for the Stormcloak discussion to not to clutter your welcome thread.

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