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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« on: 17 February 2014, 19:29:37 »

Ideas and information somewhere on this board  - please post here!


http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,10783.0.html

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THE CLERICAL AGE (610-825)

The Clerical Age is a time where the 4 elemental "archbishops" (better name needed)have heavy influence on the political agenda and finally instruct a puppet king. In the course of this Age the time shift back again.

Power centers of the "archbishops":
- Sanctuary of the Twelve in Elsreth (vashamethar)
- Sanctuary of the Twelve in Milkengrad (pheramethar)
- Sanctuary of the Twelve in Chrondra (dominating, so it became capital eventually (motamethar))
- Sanctuary of the Twelve in Varcopas (maramethar)
- Fifth: Northern Rimmerins Ring, highest elevation in the mountains - "Sky Fortress", here the meetings take place between the so-called "archbishops"
- The Voice: sorain (the speaker)
- Archbishop: methar (plural: metharín)
- Bistum: arameth, plural: aramethín (vashameth, pherameth, marameth, motameth)

Comment Curgan:
It will be hard for the Helcrani to have an archbishop of the 12 since they consider them inferior and believe to Ava, just like the elves (who along with dwarves form two of the Helcrani clans). Maybe they could have an archbishop of Ava, as a heresy...


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« Reply #1 on: 18 February 2014, 06:05:10 »


http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,15120.120.html
Re: Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion
« Reply #122 on: 07 December 2011, 07:36:28 »



Well, as far as religious institutions are concerned: The rough Santharian Timeline offers some details here, see mainly the Clerical Age mentioned there (610-825). According to the text there and this map we've had four elemental "archbishops" (title still to be changed!), dominate the kingdom and instruct a puppet king. These are actually four power centers - which is better than just one clerical leader, because there can be more diversity and tension. I assume these clerical power centers are still intact more or less, maybe one move elsewhere due to a certain reason, but let's assume it's all as it was back in the Clerical Age.

The clerical center of importance for us is the "Fire archbishop", which was initially placed at Milkengrad. In his comment Curgan pointed out, I quote it here:

Quote
It will be hard for the Helcrani to have an archbishop of the 12 since they consider them inferior and believe to Ava, just like the elves (who along with dwarves form two of the Helcrani clans). Maybe they could have an archbishop of Ava, as a heresy...

With other words: Milkengrad is not good, but the archbishop should still be in Vardýnn. So I'd say let's move him/her somewhere else - places like Voldar and Jernais are not the best options as they have already a certain history and place in the province. So how about, say, the next larger town around, e.g. Thyslan? (qu Art)
******
It seems there isn't much written about Centoraurian beliefs, but since the Helcrani are quite integrated into Centoraurian society, it might be safer not to use Thyslan or any other Centoraurian city.  Would Cemphiria work?  It's Erpheronian and not very far away. (Mina)

****

Cemphiria seems like a good town for a temple and regional religious influence/power (perhaps it might be allowed to grow a little due to the new prestige it bears?).

Perhaps I may be forcing development and this discussion in places where it's not ready to go, but I feel it most integral to flesh out what the religious texture is in the region. There is no doubt institutionalized Aviarian religion (IAR). I assume IAR developed in the Clerical Age and evolved a bit since this time. Are there any orders pertaining to the IAR (knight-esque or monk-esque or scholar-esque)? Perhaps the IAR requires one of their representatives to be present in the house of all dukes and gravens, and a few to serve as advisors to the Thane?

Are there different flavors of IAR? Something to like of the Catholics and Protestants in England? Is the relationship between political figures and religious ones more peaceful or more antagonist? (I'm think of Mr. I-want-to-marry-six-times-and-don't-give-a-damn-what-the-church-says).

I'm not sure I understand the break-down of the "archbishops" into elements. Does the Archbishop of Fire claim a special connection to the Fire Gods (Armeros, Etherus, and Foiros)? Or does this "fire" epithet refer to something else?
{Rayne)

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Elven belief

Elves believe in Avá, humans don't. As for worshipping practices and the actual consequences of belief: There's a huge difference between the races. I've started a discussion on that a while ago in order to work out these differences out a bit (see this thread). This all of course also affects what worship means to them.

You could call the human worship naive, as they consider the gods as the ultimate beings having their hands actively involved in all worldly affairs, so that by praying you can "swing their moods" and get them to help you. Gods are seen as initially derived from humans and turned "super-humans", thus their inherent hubris, because they think they have it in them to change the world. That's rather simply put, though.

Elves believe in Avá and the necessity that she realizes herself in Coór, and from that the Gods sprang into existence to fulfill necessary tasks to help realizing that Dream. So an elf's prayer is more a focusing of the inner self onto the basic principles/ideas which the Gods represent, rather than taking with personal gods. Elven worship on a shrine is more meditation on a certain aspect of existence, and this especially is true as far as Avá is concerned, as in Her rests the whole fate of the world. I assume there should also be shrines to Coór, because the elves need to be aware of the consequences of His existence as well.

So: Humans and elves have the Twelvern Gods in common, but worship entirely differently. Elves probably wouldn't really worship in a human temples, as humans don't really "get" the true nature of the universe according to them. They come from two entirely different sides. (More on the basic differences between humans and elves becomes apparent in my most recent story, "Beyond the Rift", BTW.)

Institutionalized Aviarian religion

It's all still not clearly defined, but there are of course orders, who take over after the Interregnum (White Knights, Order of Armeros etc.), who compete with military orders after the kingdom has received a serious blow. See the Time of Interregnum in the Timeline thread. As I already said elsewhere: We'd need to continue with Santharian history to get more depth into that.

I also would like to see more sects develop around the Twelvern faith. Not really huge branches splitting up Twelvern faith, but a few extreme developments, which might also reflect in the minor orders (example: that some decide to defend what they think is good with the sword, whatever the cost). Things like that to add more to the mix, fanatics and stuff, which make the people in the middle aware where they really stand.

Elemental archbishops

Hasn't been worked out in detail, but yes, special connection to the Fire Gods for an Archbishop of Fire would be the basic idea. Which would mean in terms of map-making: The main fire temples should be up north, in that bishop's territory. Fits somewhat to the Erpheronians with their fire-red hair and their affinity to all things war-related. (Art)

********

What a week! Thank goodness it's Friday!

Thank you for the explanation of Elven belief! You have confirmed my suspicions, and validated my interpretation from site material. I think there may be others who have misinterpreted...

I would love for the Order of Armeros to have its "headquarters" in Cemphiria. Right now, the entry mentions only New-Santhala, Voldar, and Elsreth. However, having it in Cemphiria (or another town/city in Vardynn), would align with history (regarding the Fire Archbishop in the Clerical Age).

This also supplies something which I believe is significant--it gives religion what seems to me to be a standing army, of sorts, naturally lending a great deal of power to IAR in Vardynn.

Is there no over-arching religious figure in the region, analogous to the Pope in Rome? And if not, it seems appropriate that there should be one archbishop for each god rather than each 'element,' though there may be a 'leader' for each element (i.e.  the Archbishop of Armeros is chosen as leader by the Archbishop of Foiros and the Archbishop of Etherus). After all, it seems likely that archbishops would be chosen because of their particular connection to A god--one with whom the bishop claims he/she can commune--and it seems unlikely that one individual would share such a connection to multiple gods, many of which have conflicting qualities (i.e. Armeros and Etherus).

I therefore propose that, in Vardynn at least, the Temple of Armeros has particular influence over the governance of the province. Cemphiria houses a grand temple, constructed during the Clerical Age, from whence the Archbishop of Armeros once commended significant power (and still does, to some degree). The Thane is greatly influenced by this archbishop, not only because of the influence granted by his/her religious standing, but also because of the Knights of the Order of Armeros. While the provincial order is smaller than the governments, the number of worthy knights lent by the good relations with the Temple of Armeros is significant enough to encourage the Thane to maintain those relations.

What are your thoughts on this, Artimidor?

I would like to place some major temples to Foiros and Etherus in the region, as well. Any ideas?
******

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Should I make the Vardynn Resource map and list its own thread? Yae or Nay?
That's up to you, but I don't really feel that it's necessary. 

Quote
Elves believe in Avá, humans don't.
Do they completely reject the idea that Avá exists, or simply don't worship her?  Perhaps they think of her as a distant creator god who is not relevant to their lives? 

Quote
I also would like to see more sects develop around the Twelvern faith. Not really huge branches splitting up Twelvern faith, but a few extreme developments, which might also reflect in the minor orders (example: that some decide to defend what they think is good with the sword, whatever the cost). Things like that to add more to the mix, fanatics and stuff, which make the people in the middle aware where they really stand.
The Voidwalkers sound a little like that.  Of course, having more heretical groups would be great too. 

Quote
Is there no over-arching religious figure in the region, analogous to the Pope in Rome? And if not, it seems appropriate that there should be one archbishop for each god rather than each 'element,' though there may be a 'leader' for each element (i.e.  the Archbishop of Armeros is chosen as leader by the Archbishop of Foiros and the Archbishop of Etherus). After all, it seems likely that archbishops would be chosen because of their particular connection to A god--one with whom the bishop claims he/she can commune--and it seems unlikely that one individual would share such a connection to multiple gods, many of which have conflicting qualities (i.e. Armeros and Etherus).
That's a good point.  On the other hand, having the leader chosen by only 3 people feels like it's not quite interesting enough.  More factions would mean more potential rivalries and thus more chances to come up with fun stuff.   

But maybe the discussions regarding religious beliefs and institutions should be moved to a different thread?  They do involve much more than Vardynn. 

Quote
I would like to place some major temples to Foiros and Etherus in the region, as well. Any ideas?
That's a good idea.  Do they all have to be in Vardynn though?  Nermeran is very Erpheronian too. 

However, I am also slightly concerned that religious affiliation doesn't seem to be as neat as suggested by the Clerical Age map.  Notably, Nyermersys is deep in "Fire" territory, but is strongly associated with Queprur.  Well, hopefully that will be sorted out when the political side of religion becomes more developed. (Mina)

******

RELIGION

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On the other hand, having the leader chosen by only 3 people feels like it's not quite interesting enough.  More factions would mean more potential rivalries and thus more chances to come up with fun stuff.   

But maybe the discussions regarding religious beliefs and institutions should be moved to a different thread?  They do involve much more than Vardynn.

I suppose, before we get too far into discussion, it might be worth deciding whether or not this is something we're ready to flesh out at this point or if we want to wait until the timeline development reaches the Clerical Age. My goal was to confirm the influence of religion on regional politics--most specifically, this influence:

Quote
I therefore propose that, in Vardynn at least, the Temple of Armeros has particular influence over the governance of the province. Cemphiria houses a grand temple, constructed during the Clerical Age, from whence the Archbishop of Armeros once commended significant power (and still does, to some degree). The Thane is greatly influenced by this archbishop, not only because of the influence granted by his/her religious standing, but also because of the Knights of the Order of Armeros. While the provincial order is smaller than the governments, the number of worthy knights lent by the good relations with the Temple of Armeros is significant enough to encourage the Thane to maintain those relations.

However, I am open to discussing the role of religion in Santharia as a whole--though I would like to see Talia involved, if possible, given her closeness with this particular field of development...
(Rayne)
***
Indeed the Helcrani would not have a temple of any other than Ava. In fact they have a "humanised" version of the elven beliefs. The elves among them are just like the rest of the elves in tems of worship, while  the dwarves, although they too believe in Ava have a more "material" form of religion... (Curgan)

*****
RELIGION (off topic)

Concerning Mina's question on Avá:

Quote
Do [humans] completely reject the idea that Avá exists, or simply don't worship her?  Perhaps they think of her as a distant creator god who is not relevant to their lives? 

I would say that humans completely reject the idea of Avá, because their creation myth should differ. That's one of the crucial points actually. What we put instead is not yet clear I think, but that in the Twelvern religion the Gods have developed from humans already is a clear indicator that it's an entirely different approach. There's no place for a Dreamer who isn't really of this world, in human religion it's all about this world.

Avá BTW has merged in human understanding with Eyasha (note: "Month of the Sleeping Dreameress" - there are only twelve months!). So humans would say: The elves just took one of their Gods and made her the main one, adding their own creation myth ideas.

Oh, Voidwalkers are nice as a sect, more don't hurt

On to the archbishops issue:

Archbishops per deity is ok as well, the point of our historical discussions was that there's an overarching key figure for the elements, so that we have a relatively small amount of key figures who can exert power and provide points of conflicts. Not so good if there are twelve power figures. We an call that overarching clerical elemental person any way we like, though.

However, discussions are fine, but I think all we need to know for now where we should place what temples, and everything else I would discuss later. Main objective is to get our map together, and the sooner I know where we want to place what, I can actually get to realizing it all on the map. (Art)

***RELIGION

We can keep the Twelvern out of Milkengrad, but we need temples elsewhere. I would recommend a Foiros in either Jernais or Salsair (leaning toward the latter) and a Temple of Etherus in either Thyslan or Jernais. What do you all think?

Should we have other larger temples to other dieties in the province? We could always put a Jeyriall Temple in Jernais. Maybe a Baveras Temple is Westhron? A temple to Grothar in Accam? An Eyasha temple in... hm... in a province filled with Erpheronians, it’s hard to know where or how you squeeze in a Goddess of Peace... 


I also assume my suggested politics-religion proposal for the province is all right...   (Rayne)

********

Quote
My goal was to confirm the influence of religion on regional politics--most specifically, this influence:
Well, the idea of an Archbishop (do we have a better title for them?) being very influential in provincial politics sounds good.  The details of how the Order of Armeros fits into this I'm not so sure, but it does sound interesting.   

Quote
I assume the kingdom allows provinces to have standing armies/active knights.
Well, that's most likely the case for knights, since it's a noble rank (I think) in addition to being a type of soldier.  Not so sure about other types of troops though.  As far as I know, standing armies only started appearing towards the end of the medieval period.  Assuming that Santharia is supposed to resemble medieval Europe as much as possible, standing armies are probably relatively uncommon.  There's also the issue of how centralised the provinces are.  Is Vardynn centralised enough to have a Vardynnian Army (presumably answering to the Thane), or is it the Dukes and/or other nobles who actually own armies? 

By the way, I found an interesting bit of information on Wikipedia:
Quote from: Wikipedia
The practice of carrying relics into battle is a feature that distinguishes medieval warfare from its predecessors or from early modern warfare. The presence of relics was believed to be an important source of supernatural power that served both as a spiritual weapon and a form of defense; the relics of martyrs were considered by Saint John Chrysostom much more powerful than "walls, trenches, weapons and hosts of soldiers"
I don't know how common this was across Europe in general, but if I remember correctly, a book I read several years ago mentioned that the Byzantine Empire did this quite frequently.  Might be something to consider when developing military and religious practices. 

Quote
Right now the list uses both a breakdown of metals (silver, iron, etc.) and the catch-all term "metals". I assume that "metals" should probably be broken down across the board, but I'm not sure what cities would require what specific metals.
Well, I think iron is usually quite important and used for lots of things.  I would guess that it's more common for places short of iron to import iron products than raw iron though.  Copper, silver, and gold are used for money; I don't know if they have any other uses.  I can't think of any other metals that would really be needed at the moment.  Things like mithril and aurium have their uses, but they aren't exactly necessities. 

Quote
I would say that humans completely reject the idea of Avá, because their creation myth should differ. That's one of the crucial points actually. What we put instead is not yet clear I think, but that in the Twelvern religion the Gods have developed from humans already is a clear indicator that it's an entirely different approach.
Quote
Avá BTW has merged in human understanding with Eyasha
That's interesting.  I wonder how this would affect relations with Elves.  Is there anywhere I can read up on these new developments regarding the religion?  I don't think I saw anything like that in the cosmology forum. 

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I have no issue expanding Milkennon’s territory to include the island to the north (Did we name that?).
It's Midlanir, I think. 

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We can keep the Twelvern out of Milkengrad, but we need temples elsewhere. I would recommend a Foiros in either Jernais or Salsair (leaning toward the latter) and a Temple of Etherus in either Thyslan or Jernais. What do you all think?
To what extent do the Centoraurians share the religious attitudes of the Helcrani?  Salsair and Thyslan are Centoraurian cities, so if they're like the Helcrani religiously, they are probably not suitable locations for the temples. 

Quote
Should we have other larger temples to other dieties in the province? We could always put a Jeyriall Temple in Jernais. Maybe a Baveras Temple is Westhron? A temple to Grothar in Accam? An Eyasha temple in... hm... in a province filled with Erpheronians, it’s hard to know where or how you squeeze in a Goddess of Peace...
  Well, maybe not Eyasha.  The largest temple to Eyasha is in Caelum, so it's not exactly necessary to put another major temple in the next province.  Urtengor seems a little neglected to me though.  Maybe he could have a major temple somewhere in the province? 

There's also a major temple to Nehtor in Voldar. (Mina)


Thediscussion goes on here:

http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,15120.135.html






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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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« Reply #2 on: 03 March 2014, 00:30:18 »

That's pretty hard to read.  Using quotes would be better, I think. 

I have more things to say regarding the Aviarian religion, but for now I want to ask, why are the titles apparently in Styrash?  "Archbishop" is probably too Christian, but something like "high priest" or "archpriest" might work?
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #3 on: 08 March 2014, 05:09:54 »

Quote
That's pretty hard to read.  Using quotes would be better, I think. 

Well, I posted this more for me to not to forget it - and didn't think, that it would become so lengthy. ;)

I can't remember, why we choose them, but I like them better than archpriest (who could well be a lower rank). I will find a good explanation - I had one recently, when I skimmed over your answer - and forgot it again.  azn
Depends on how we introduce the Clerical age. Styrash could well have been our Latin for some time.
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