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Author Topic: Alternative Orthography for Kh'om'chr'om  (Read 2039 times)
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Seagazer
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« on: 10 October 2014, 12:19:53 »

Hi.

I've been interested in Santharia for a while, both on this account and others, and separately I've been studying linguistics. Kh'om'chr'om really appeals to me as idea of a combined spoken-sign language, but I think development on the language has really been stunted by the somewhat awkward orthography for expressing gestures. What I've come up in by not ideal, but I think it is better that the (really awesome and original) current symbol-dense version.

I don't want to hack with BBCode for the tables so this is the link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12PxnZYvPg3QAOA7BknQ8IOBk21TXAWcIjTdD4_JYSd8/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks so much for reading, and literally any feedback you can provide would be awesome.
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Mina
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« Reply #1 on: 11 October 2014, 18:33:46 »

I never liked the system I proposed.  It was way too ugly.  Using letters is probably a better idea; I avoided that mainly because I figured that letters are associated with sounds, which didn't seem very suitable for gestures.

It might also not be necessary to have a gesture for all personal pronouns.  One of them, perhaps one of the 3rd persons, could probably be unmarked.  Although I'm basing this comment on how person agreement often seems to work, which might not be what you're going for.  (Why are there so many 3rd persons anyway?  I can understand 2, but 4 seems excessive.)

The main issue holding back the development of the language, I think, is the fact that we're rather short of people who are familiar with linguistics.  That's probably why it's little more than a list of words at the moment.  If you want to try developing it further, go ahead. 
« Last Edit: 11 October 2014, 18:37:17 by Mina » Logged

Seagazer
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« Reply #2 on: 12 October 2014, 02:16:59 »

Thanks so much for your feedback. In terms of the usage of letters over symbols, it seemed to me that symbols would be an unlikely choice to be used with late Middle Aged scholars.

My idea with having 4 3rd person gestures is to disambiguate between different ones. Each of them could be used in a context to refer to different objects, each with their own "location" so to speak. If that doesn't appeal to you, I could change that to something else.

My next work on Kh'omchr'om should probably just be on the spoken phonology and how it connects to the gestures. An update will be forthcoming.
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Mina
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« Reply #3 on: 12 October 2014, 13:36:21 »

Quote
In terms of the usage of letters over symbols, it seemed to me that symbols would be an unlikely choice to be used with late Middle Aged scholars.
Yeah, that's true. 

Quote
My idea with having 4 3rd person gestures is to disambiguate between different ones. Each of them could be used in a context to refer to different objects, each with their own "location" so to speak. If that doesn't appeal to you, I could change that to something else.
It's probably alright.  I just found it unusual, but unusual doesn't mean impossible. 

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My next work on Kh'omchr'om should probably just be on the spoken phonology and how it connects to the gestures. An update will be forthcoming.
grin
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Seagazer
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« Reply #4 on: 13 October 2014, 01:09:51 »

Okay, I went through the word list and grabbed all the letters and obvious digraphs I could find.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18iaF76C2EVhFeo52JXDkxcK_X8EsGstLnrV7ByqJMsQ/edit?usp=sharing

I assigned the sound values, mostly as in what would be most obvious to an English-speaker, but with a few minor changes.

- the digraphs ending in ⟨h⟩ would use the ⟨h⟩ to mean /j/ as in the English "y". That would be rather unusual, but it adds a nice sound to the language, IMO.

- the single ⟨r⟩ and the ⟨rr⟩ would have different sound values. The first would be /ʁ/ as in French, and the second would be /ɹ/  as in the r in most English dialects.

And as to the relationship between the sounds and the gestures, I like the idea of having all grammar be either gestural or contextual, but with most lexical meaning coming from the spoken language.

So, what do you think?
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Mina
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« Reply #5 on: 13 October 2014, 12:13:15 »

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Okay, I went through the word list and grabbed all the letters and obvious digraphs I could find.
Your list seem to be missing d, s, v, and x.  Also, the apostrophes should probably mean something.

Edit: ph and rh also occur.

Why not have ch be /tʃ/ since you already have /d͡ʒ/? 

Quote
- the digraphs ending in ⟨h⟩ would use the ⟨h⟩ to mean /j/ as in the English "y". That would be rather unusual, but it adds a nice sound to the language, IMO.
That's indeed a little unusual.  You also have h by itself representing /j/, which is again a rather odd choice.  Why not have it be so only in the digraphs?  (By the way, I can't see the symbols you placed beside h, r, and rr.)

Quote
And as to the relationship between the sounds and the gestures, I like the idea of having all grammar be either gestural or contextual, but with most lexical meaning coming from the spoken language.
Most rather than all grammar would probably be better, I think.  But yeah, I like the idea too.

« Last Edit: 13 October 2014, 12:19:11 by Mina » Logged

Seagazer
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« Reply #6 on: 13 October 2014, 12:18:40 »

Yeah, upon further reflection, having two affricatives probably makes more sense. I'll change those, and learn the alphabet soon!  :D

Really, my ideas regarding the grammar would really be pretty simple.

- Kh'omchr'om is polysynthetic
- No copula
- Probably no distinguishing between tenses, just aspect (maybe a gnomic aspect?)

I don't want to step on anyone's feet here, so if any of this is too weird or unsantharian, just tell me, and I can stop.

Thanks.
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Mina
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« Reply #7 on: 13 October 2014, 12:34:33 »

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Really, my ideas regarding the grammar would really be pretty simple.

- Kh'omchr'om is polysynthetic
- No copula
- Probably no distinguishing between tenses, just aspect (maybe a gnomic aspect?)

I don't want to step on anyone's feet here, so if any of this is too weird or unsantharian, just tell me, and I can stop.
Those are the same features I'm hoping to put in the Volkek-oshra language (although I'm not sure if I can pull it off), so having another orcish language with those features sounds like a good idea. 

Also, before you get too far, it might be a good idea to think about the context in which Kh'omchr'om is spoken.  Right now, if I remember correctly, it's the language of all the orcish tribes of North Sarvonia, whose territories are mostly not contiguous with each other.  This seems rather unrealistic to me.  Something probably has to be modified. 
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« Reply #8 on: 13 October 2014, 12:42:07 »

Yeah, I'll probably make a WIP post on the boards about an actual entry for the language, so that everyone can see my work as it expands.

My personal story for the language was for it to be a sort of creole language, original developed as a trade pidgin, but evolved into something more. Along that lines, the gestural component was originally mostly optional, but as time went on, became more and more integral to the language. That would also set up the obvious comparison to Plains Indian Sign Language.

Well, I'll get on that right away!
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