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Author Topic: Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Principles  (Read 8747 times)
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Seagazer
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« on: 13 October 2014, 12:59:12 »

This is a draft entry for the Kh'omchr'om Principles page that I have been working on. I have tried to integrate as much as I could that has already been written about Kh'omchr'om, but I was forced as a non-executive to make some executive decisions. I would appreciate any comments that you could add.

Bla-HFMQ LFMO kroch!
_____________________________________________________________________________


Introduction.
Kh'omchr'om is the common language of the North Sarvonian Orcs, used for intertribal communication, and trade. It is by no means their only language; most orcs, in fact, do not even speak Kh'omchr'om, instead speaking their local language. Despite that, it remains a unifying feature of the Orcish people throughout the North.

Basics.
   
  • Kh'omchr'om uses gestures to convey grammatical ideas. Many grammatical ideas are conveyed entirely through gestures, which are explained in the Phonology section.
  • Kh'omchr'om is somewhat agglutinative . That is to mean, a variety of morphemes can be combined to make larger ones, to form what in Tharian be a very big word
  • Kh'omchr'om does not have a copula. Unlike many other languages, Kh'omchr'om does not use a copula, like Tharian verb "to be" or Stryásh's "styrán". Instead, adjectives and subjects are just placed next to each other. For instance, the phrase "The guard is good" can be translated as just "Haz kroch", literally meaning "Guard good".
  • Kh'omchr'om is a VSO (verb-subject-object) language. That means that the verb starts the sentence, then the subject and then the object. For instance, the phrase "The orc hits the warg", would be translated into Kh'omchr'om as "Arq oc morgur", which can be literally translated as "Hit orc warg". The word order is strict; if the order of the words is changed, it changes the meaning. For example, if you switched "oc" and "morgur" in the example, into the sentence "Arq morgur oc", it would mean "The warg hits the orc". The same is true for when pronouns are used. The phrase "They eat the horse" would be translated as "Nom LCSO h'rok", never "Nom h'rok LCSO"
Spoken Phonology.
   
/a/ written as "a"
/e/ written as "e"
/i/ written as either "i" or "y"
/o/ written as "o"
/u/written as "u"
      
/ʔ/ written as "'"
/b/ written as "b"
/bʱ/ written as "bh"
/d/ written as "d"
/dʱ/ written as "dh"
/d͡ʒ/ written as "j"
/f/ written as "f"
/g/ written as "g"
/ɡʱ/ written as "gh"
/h/ written as "h"
/j/ written as "y"
/k/ sometimes written as "c" or also "k"
/kʰ/ written as "kh"
/l/ written as "l"
/m/ written as "m"
/n/ written as "n"
/p/ written as "p"
/pʰ/ written as "ph"
/ŋ/ written as "ng"
/q/ written as "q"
/ʁ/ written as "r"
/ɹ/ written as "rr", or sometimes "rh"
/s/ written as "s"
/ʃ/ written as "sh", or sometimes "sz"
/t/ written as "t"
/tʰ/ written as "th"
/t͡ʃ/ written as "ch"
/v/ written as "v"
/w/ written as "w"
/x/ written as "ck"
/z/ written as "z"
Gestured Phonology.
      Kh'omchr'om's gestural phonemes are just as important in the language as the spoken ones are. Each of the gestures is divided into four dimensions:
      
  • Height
  • Distance From Body
  • Orientation from Center
  • Shape of Hand

      Along each of those dimensions, there are just a few options, allowing each gesture to be cataloged.
      
LowCloseMiddleGrasped
                                   Rounded
HighFarSideOpen
      Each of those gestures can be identified by a four letter sequence, with each letter standing for each of the dimensions. For instance a gesture which is low and far from the core, to the side, and with a rounded hand, would be written as "LFSR". They are typically written  after the word, but they are signed at the same time as their proceeding word is being spoken.

      Thus, there is a set number (24) possible gesture radicals. They, and their instructions, can be found in the table below.
      
LCMGlow hand, close to the body, middle of the body, grasped hand
LCMRlow hand, close to the body, middle of the body, rounded hand
LCMOlow hand, close to the body, middle of the body, open hand
LCSGlow hand, close to the body, side of body, grasped hand
LCSRlow hand, close to the body, side of body, rounded hand
LCSOlow hand, close to the body, side of body, open hand
LFMGlow hand, far from the body, middle of the body, grasped hand
LFMRlow hand, far from the body, middle of the body, rounded hand
LFMOlow hand, far from the body, middle of the body, open hand
LFSGlow hand, far from the body, side of body, grasped hand
LFSRlow hand, far from the body, side of body, rounded hand
LFSOlow hand, far from the body, side of body, open hand
HCMGhigh hand, close to the body, middle of the body, grasped hand
HCMRhigh hand, close to the body, middle of the body, rounded hand
HCMOhigh hand, close to the body, middle of the body, open hand
HCSGhigh hand, close to the body, side of body, grasped hand
HCSRhigh hand, close to the body, side of body, rounded hand
HCSOhigh hand, close to the body, side of body, open hand
HFMGhigh hand, far from the body, middle of the body, grasped hand
HFMRhigh hand, far from the body, middle of the body, rounded hand
HFMOhigh hand, far from the body, middle of the body, open hand
HFSGhigh hand, far from the body, side of body, grasped hand
HFSRhigh hand, far from the body, side of body, rounded hand
HFSOhigh hand, far from the body, side of body, open hand
   These can be composed, like the spoken phonemes, into sequences. Those are not typically used in mainstream Kh'omchr'om, but are sometimes used in Kh'omchr'om's dialects.

Pronouns.
   Kh'omchr'om uses gestures to express its twelve pronouns.
   
  • LCMG singular 1st person pronoun
  • LCMO plural 1st person pronoun
  • LCSG singular 3rd person pronoun #1
  • LCSO plural 3rd person pronoun #1
  • LFMG singular 2nd person pronoun
  • LFMO plural 2nd person pronoun
  • LFSG singular 3rd person pronoun #2
  • LFSO plural 3rd person pronoun #2
  • HCSG singular 3rd person pronoun #3
  • HCSO plural 3rd person pronoun #3
  • HFSG  singular 3rd person pronoun #4
  • HFSO plural 3rd person pronoun #4

   Each of these pronouns can be used in exactly the same place that nouns can be used in Kh'omchr'om, except that it is signed during the speaking of the preceeding word. Each of the third person pronouns can be used in a context to identify different objects. For example,
      Uon LCMG LCSG. I see it.
      LCSG kroch. It is good.
      Uon LCMG LFSG "I see another thing", or literally "I see it"
      LFSG ashz. "The second thing is noble", again literally "It is noble"
   It this context, the thing that was first seen that is good, and the second, completely different thing is noble.

   In addition, due to the lack of determiners in Kh'omchr'om, pronouns are used for that purpose. They are used as adjectives to describe the noun being determined. For instance,
      Arq LCMO mar LCSG. We hit that wolf.
      Nom oc LCSO ar h'rok. Those orcs are eating some of the horse

Verbs.
   Kh'omchr'om does not distinguish between tenses, like Styrásh or Tharian. Instead, it distinguishes based on aspect and mood.
   Each of the moods in Kh'omchr'om refers to what kind of event the verb refers to. It can refer to something that definitely happened, as in the indicative, or something that is commanded to happen, as in the imperative.
   
  • The indicative mood is used to refer to things that definitely happened, are happening or will happen. "I jumped", "Fire is hot", and "Water is running in the river" are all examples of the indicative in Tharian. It is the default, unmarked mood. For some examples,
             Nom LCMO h'rok. We eat the horse.
             H'rrimt LFMO. You are (plural) stopping.
          
  • The imperative mood is generally used for commands, and instructions, but also in Kh'omchr'om the future. "Go over there!", "Let's walk", and "Chop the onion!" are all examples of the imperative mood. The gesture HFMO is used to express this mood.
             Arq-HFMO LFMO h'rok! Hit the horse!
          Note the pronoun there, "LFMO", which marks the sentence as being a 2nd person plural command. The imperative is also used in Kh'omchr'om to express particular events in the future.
             Arq-HFMO LCSG h'rok. Literally "Him! Hit the horse", but really means "He will hit the horse"
          
   Within the indicative mood, there are two aspects. Each of the aspects marks a perspective on time, either a particular point, as in the episodic, or over all time, as in the gnomic.
   
  • The episodic aspect refers to things that are happening in a particular situation at a particular time. "I jump", "They ate", and "He will go over there" are all examples in Tharian that would be translated using the episodic. The episodic is not marked by gestures in Kh'omchr'om; it is implicit in non-marked verbs. For example,
             Hnk oc. The orc bites.
             Nom LCSO h'rok. They eat the horse.
          
  • The gnomic aspect refers to things that are generally true, and are broadly applicable. "People need to eat", and "Fish swim and birds fly." are some examples in Tharian. The gesture HFMR is used to mark this aspect. For some examples,
             Rat-HFMR morgur m'ruk. Wargs (always) have fangs.
             Khq-HFMR ngangz. Archers (always) fight.
             Resz-HFMR ghun. Tombs are (always) cursed.
          

   Kh'omchr'om does not conjugate verbs in any context. Verbs are always used in the root, raw form. In contexts where the object of the verb is another verb, such as in the usage of the verb "pak" meaning "to wait", the verb alone is used, For example,
       Pak oc nom. The orc is waiting to eat.
   When the verb being used as an infinitive in English itself takes an object it is translated using the standard order. For example,
      Pak oc nom h'rok.  The orc is waiting to eat the horse.
   If the subject is different, it can be done using the typical order. For instance,
      Pak oc nom cha h'rok The orc is waiting for the female to eat the horse

   Voice, as in passive or active, can be translated using the affixes "k'" and "'u". The active voice rarely requires additional markers, such as,
      Nom cha. The woman eats.
      B'rak oc. The orc declares war.
   Yet in some contexts, the active does use the prefix "k'". It is used with a transitive verb to refer to verbs that would typically take a direct object, but do not in the context. For instance,
      K'uon LCMG. I see something.
      K'arq LCSO. They hit something.
   On the other hand, the passive involves the usage of the suffix "'u". For instance,
      Uon'u LFMG. You are being seen.
      Arq'u h'rok oc. The horse is hit by the orc.
   Note that without the affix "'u", the phrase would mean "The horse hits the orc".

Nouns.
   Nouns in Kh'omchr'om are not declined for gender, number, definiteness, or case. For instance the word "oc", can mean "an orc", "some orcs", "the orc", or "the orcs". It can be used interchangebly for any role in a sentence. Despite that, in some contexts the preposition "ar" is used to mark the partitive. For example,
      Rat LCSG ar yrr'la'h'rok. He has some milk of horse
   The usage of "ar" stresses the fact that that the subject of that phrase does not have all of the milk of horse, just some of it. Therefore, the following is also correct.
      Rat LCSG yrr'la'hrok. He has the milk of horse

Adjectives and Adverbs.
   Adjectives in Kh'omchr'om generally follow the noun they describe. For some examples,
      Shan wrosz. The lake is cold.
      Urdan oc hef itus ha'akh. The large orc destroys the tall tree.
   When more than one adjective is used to describe a single noun, the adjectives are used in series. There is no particular order for doing this.
      Ogm LCSO gob wrosz ghun. They move into the cold, cursed cave.
      Ogm LCSO gob ghun wrosz. "They move into the cold, cursed cave" or literally "They move into the cursed cold cave"
   Kh'omchr'om does not make the distinction between adjectives and adverbs. Instead the difference can be seen in the order. For instance,
      Ogm sa'ak tak. The boar moves quickly.
      Ogm tak sa'ak. The quick boar moves


   However, there is a set of irregular adjectives that precede the noun they describe. They are listed below.
   
  • y' diminutive meaning "young" or sometimes "weak".
  • m' negator meaning "not"
   To use these words, the following is done.
      Arq LCMO m'oc. I hit the non-orc
      Rat-HFMR y'oc h'rok. Young orcs always have horses
   Yet when the sentence does not have a verb, where in the Tharian the verb "to be" would be used, the object being described still comes first, as is regular. For instance,
      Y'haz. The guard is weak.
      LCMG m'y'oc. I am not a young orc.
   These, again, can be used as adverbs, as well as adjectives.
      Y'b'rak LCSO oc. They weakly declare war on the orcs.
      Haz oc m'ha'akh. The guard is not a tall orc.
    
Comparison.

    To compare objects to one another, Kh'omchr'om uses the gesture HCMG, signed during the noun being described. It can be translated as the  word "more". For instance,
        Haz saak-HCMG ar oc. The guard is quicker than the orc or literally Guard quick-more of orc
        Oc-HFMR dak-HCMG ar cha. Orcs are (always) more violent than women
    On the other hand, to form a superlative the gesture is used twice, both signed while the word is being spoken. As an example,
        LCSG HCMG-kroch-HCMG. He is the best
        Ogm HCMG-losh-HCMG gob. The truest moved into the cave


Possession.
   The possesion of objects is express in Kh'omchr'om in two ways:
      
  • First, the usage of the suffix "'om". For some examples,
                Resz'haz'om The Tomb of the Guards
                Rhom'y'oc'om The Plain of the Young Orcs
  • Second, the word "ar". This is used more commonly in day-to-day speech. For an example,
                H'rok ar LCMO Our horse
« Last Edit: 29 October 2015, 08:02:42 by Seagazer » Logged
Mina
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« Reply #1 on: 13 October 2014, 22:57:31 »

The name of the language is Kh'omchr'om.  You have an extra apostrophe.
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« Reply #2 on: 14 October 2014, 13:02:56 »

Okay, I revised the spoken phonology. The sounds are bit weird, and not entirely in the right arrangement for a Terran language, but I think this can be safely ignored for green people. ;)

In terms of verbs, I just put together some stuff that I think is a bit exotic, and combined it. If true tenses are needed, those of course can be added as desired.

I think the next step for this is the noun synthesis rules.

Thank you so much for your patience here Mina!

« Last Edit: 15 October 2014, 08:50:59 by Seagazer » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: 16 October 2014, 11:59:33 »

Looking good so far.  Y'oc actually means "orcling", although I suppose it could also mean "weak orc" depending on the context. 

One thought I had while working on the Volkek-oshra language is that they have bilabial instead of labiodental fricatives, due to their tusks getting in the way.  The northern orcs' tusks seem to be less prominent, at least according to the illustrations, but maybe it's influences their speech similarly?  Or maybe their labiodentals are made by placing the lower teeth against the upper lip? 
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« Reply #4 on: 16 October 2014, 12:31:31 »

Hi.

I thought "y'oc" could mean "weak, young orcling", but if you disagree that could be changed.

In terms of the anatomy of Orcish mouths, I've been roughly assuming that they are identical to that of humans, but I think that that will need to be changed. There seems to be pretty dramatic variability among different orcish tribes, http://santharia.com/pictures/faugar/faugar_pics/rhom_oc.jpg
http://santharia.com/pictures/seeker/seeker_pics/orcristh_orc.jpg
http://santharia.com/pictures/faugar/faugar_pics/shakgrah_the_searer.jpg

Despite that, I think just dialectal variety could be taken into account, and it could be that just that the Rhom and the Losh speak with different sounds! The Volkek-oshra look pretty human-like, so I think that they wouldn't need too much modification. I think that it would interesting to have one main page for the shared dialect, but also have other Orcish language pages for the different flavors of Kh'omchr'om, as well as unrelated langauges.


On another note, I really like the idea of the gnomic, particularly in the context of already existing chants like this one. Each one of these lines could be in the gnomic, and I think that would really add some gravitas to the entire thing.

"The First Warrior is the best!
The First Warrior is the greatest!
The First Warrior is the strongest!
The First Warrior defeats all others!
The First Warrior pushes his enemy into the dust!
K’ahn’uck will rule the world!"

Unfortunately, this reminds me that I need to add comparatives and superlatives.
« Last Edit: 16 October 2014, 12:35:57 by Seagazer » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: 16 October 2014, 14:12:40 »

Quote
I thought "y'oc" could mean "weak, young orcling", but if you disagree that could be changed.
The problem with settling on a definite meaning, I think, is how to express the other possible meanings.  If y'oc means "weak, young orcling", how do you say things like "orcling" (the current dictionary definition) or "weak orc"?  I suggested relying on context to tell the difference, but there might be other solutions if you prefer, such as having other adjectives with similar meanings. 

Quote
I think that it would interesting to have one main page for the shared dialect, but also have other Orcish language pages for the different flavors of Kh'omchr'om, as well as unrelated langauges.
I'm certainly in favour of having more orcish languages, especially unrelated ones.  grin

More linguistic diversity is probably more realistic anyway.  At the very least, orcish tribes outside of North Sarvonia should probably not speak Kh'omchr'om or anything too closely related to it.  It'd be nice too if the northern tribes had their own languages besides Kh'omchr'om; a whole continent speaking only one language just seems implausible to me.
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« Reply #6 on: 17 October 2014, 03:04:45 »

Okey Dokey!

I think I have this entry in a sort-of acceptable place. I was wondering what the process would be for getting this on the site.

Is the IPA Santharian enough, or what?
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« Reply #7 on: 17 October 2014, 12:10:56 »

I'm not sure, but probably not.  For Styrash, I went with describing the sounds instead. 

As for getting it on the site, you probably need to get it approved by Artimidor, since it doesn't look like this subforum has a mod.  I'll take another look later to make sure I didn't miss anything, but you should probably get some input from someone who doesn't know linguistics too to make sure it's not too technical. 
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« Reply #8 on: 17 October 2014, 13:39:33 »

Upon reading more details on the Principles page, http://santharia.com/languages/styrash/styrash.htm, it looks like it uses Terran words and ideas, like the comparison to Latin.

Perhaps IPA can slip in after all?
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« Reply #9 on: 17 October 2014, 16:28:05 »

That would be useful. 

Quote
Kh'omchr'om is the common language of the Orcs
You should probably specify North Sarvonian orcs, since other continents have orcs too. 

Quote
Despite that, it remains a unifying feature of the Orcish people throughout the Sarvonian continent.
That should be North Sarvonian continent.  South Sarvonia is considered a separate continent, and its orcs aren't in contact with northern ones so they shouldn't have a common langauge. 

Quote
Kh'omchr'om is somewhat agglutinative . That is to mean, a variety of morphemes can be combined to make larger ones, to form what in Tharian be a very big word
I think having an example here would be nice. 

Quote
/ɡʱ/ written as "gh"
Having just one voiced aspirated plosive seems a little odd.  Maybe there could be "bh" and "dh" too?  I don't think any of the current words use them, but we could always invent some. 

Quote
Each of these pronouns can be used in exactly the same place that nouns can be used in Kh'omchr'om.
Maybe the gestures could be made the same time as the words they modify are being spoken?

Quote
The indicative mood is used to refer to things that definitely happened, are happening or will happen. "I jumped", "Fire is hot", and "Water is running in the river" are all examples of the indicative in Tharian. For some examples,
         Nom LCMO h'rok. We eat the horse.
         H'rrimt LFMO. You (plural) stop.
You might want to note that the indicative is the default unmarked mood.  Also, "you stop" sounds rather imperative in English.  Maybe some other example would be better?

Quote
When the verb being used as an infinitive in English itself takes an object it is translated using the standard order. For example
      Pak oc nom h'rok.  The orc is waiting to eat the horse.
If the second verb has a different subject, I guess it goes in the usual place?  Eg. Pak oc nom mar h'rok  "The orc is waiting for the wolf to eat the horse"?

Quote
Nouns in Kh'omchr'om are not declined for gender, number, definiteness, or case. For instance the word "oc", can mean "an orc", "some orcs", "the orc", or "the orcs".
Are there demonstratives like "this" and "that"?

Quote
Kh'omchr'om does not make the distinction between adjectives and adverbs. For instance,
      Ogm sa'ak tak. The boar moves quickly.
It might be worth pointing out how that is different from "the quick boar moves", ie. that the adverb follows the verb instead of the noun.  It's not hard to deduce from the example, but making it clearer doesn' hurt. 

Quote
To compare objects to one another, Kh'omchr'om uses the gesture HCMG, signed after the noun being described.
Again, maybe it could be signed while the noun is being spoken?  There's nothing preventing them from being done at the same time, after all. 
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« Reply #10 on: 17 October 2014, 22:57:43 »

Updated the entry with all of your suggestions Mina.

I also added /dʱ/ and /bʱ/.
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« Reply #11 on: 20 October 2014, 13:04:05 »

Hmm, although there are only 24 basic gestures, it should be possible to combine them to make more complicated gestures, if more gestures are ever needed. 
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« Reply #12 on: 20 October 2014, 23:10:38 »

That's a cool idea. I mentioned in the entry, but I think that idea is sufficiently unique to be used for one of the dialects, not for the standard language.
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« Reply #13 on: 22 October 2014, 02:47:37 »

Hello there, Stargazer! wave

From what I can see this is quite a commendable effort! I think  it's also good that this entry is quite straight to the point with examples etc. without too much theory, as that's pretty much how Kh'omchr'om works as well - at least if you know the basics by heart. You've got it all down on one longer page I'd say, right down until commands, comparisons, possessive forms and so on, complete with the new ideas of the gestures and their transliteration (is that the right word?). So what more can one ask for? :D Though in general I'm not really that much into language (the Styrásh stuff was done pretty much out of necessity, because we need to have it), so I'm definitely not the best candidate for commenting here, and unfortunately there aren't many around these days.

Anyway, but from what I read this looks quite feasible to me and makes a lot of sense. It's a bit strange when you see the gestures written down like that however, but it helps to get the point across and with a bit of studying/practising one might get used to talking in Orcish in no time. We could train some orcs in coming fantasy movies! lol The signs of the spoken phonology perhaps also look a bit weird, but you're the language expert here, so you probably know much better what signs to use... So yeah, from my point of view this is quite cool and helpful to flesh out the orcen culture, I'm all for it!  thumbup

Aura +1 at any rate for your efforts!  cool
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« Reply #14 on: 22 October 2014, 07:16:32 »

Awesome!
 grin

I'm really glad that you are a fan of the language. I hope that this can go up on the site when/if you would be ready.

Thanks.
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Latest: leaftanya12
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Total Posts: 144681
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 78
Online Ever: 226
(06 November 2012, 05:38:23)
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Last 10 Shouts:
14 September 2017, 09:40:04
Hello all! It's been a minute since I poked my nose in here. Can't remember if I ever did anything useful.
09 May 2017, 14:17:18
Ah, too bad that internet is so restricted in China, Ferra. Can't be much fun surfing the web that way if Big Brother's watching you... Hope you enjoy your stay nevertheless!
03 May 2017, 17:41:19
Hi, dear Arti and other developers!

This year I am in China and cannot use any Google services including YouTube. For this reason I stopped uploading new Nepris videos. I can also not read any comments there.

It just crossed my mind that this information might be useful to you.

Cheers

F
26 March 2017, 12:48:56
Hello to anyone that might read this. :)
22 December 2016, 02:38:16
Merry Christmas everyone!
29 November 2016, 01:45:48
Hey all!
11 November 2016, 09:19:02
Calling all developers; come help me write the New-Santhala article ^^
15 September 2016, 02:24:10
Still no problems here, Erutan...
14 September 2016, 14:55:28
Still having trouble accessing the RPG side, anyone else? Or is it just me?
27 August 2016, 21:17:33
Short note: We had a bit of downtime Friday/Saturday night due to a server change. Site went online first, message boards took a while longer - now everything should be back to normal.
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