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Author Topic: New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!  (Read 117219 times)
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #105 on: 02 May 2010, 21:20:57 »

They're two different concepts. One refers to the space of a place, the lack of things in the way, while the other refers to the space taken up by an object. Different ideas, different words.
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M´ruk Loshashzuck
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« Reply #106 on: 02 May 2010, 23:03:48 »

As far as I'm aware large doesn't refer to lack of obstacles.
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #107 on: 02 May 2010, 23:53:04 »

What Valan said. My meaning should be taken as a large area. The Ancestor's Dwelling ruin takes up a large area under the mountain (think Khazad Dum in LOTR). Your meaning is large as in objects being BIG.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Tharoc Wargrider
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« Reply #108 on: 03 May 2010, 01:00:23 »

I have seen (and taken note of) your earlier vocab, Azzy. I've also collected a few words from here and there in the Compendium. I've got plans to collate everything together and present an updated dictionary in the near future.
It's not easy, though, when M'ruk keeps throwing new words at me at such a rate!

As for the grammatical rules, I think we should keep that as a seperate issue. It will probably warrant an entry of it's own, and that will doubtless need updating as and when we decide on new rules.
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« Reply #109 on: 03 May 2010, 20:08:53 »

I can pause for a bit if you want. But before that happens, one last game of catch!

Waid'Ssalo- To trample, to stomp, progress (lit. To make a path)
Dak- Violence, sudden
Dav- To allow, to permit
Bowk- Follow, serve
Rohn- Flat, boring (Corruption of Rhom- plain)
Pak- To stay, to wait, to stop, to remain, to last, to endure, to halt
Ligt- Shadow
Ligt'Ssalo- Light, source of light (lit. Shadow maker)
Op- hole, gap, passage
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #110 on: 04 May 2010, 01:33:34 »

If the vocabulary could collated into a proper final post/thread that would be quite helpful, then I can add it into the database, then export it to HTML and we can put up index pages like we have it with Styrásh already. (The design of these pages is not overly nice right now, but that can be altered more or less easily at some point once we alter the templates we're using. E.g. changing these tables as well more towards the history tables design would be good.)
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #111 on: 04 May 2010, 02:46:03 »

Putting this dictionary of new words together sounds like a job for an apprentice to earn his keep around here!  :D

(Tharoc not included...I am looking at you, M'ruk! Mr. Wargrider is needed elsewhere.  ;)
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
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« Reply #112 on: 04 May 2010, 03:02:20 »

I have to say I love your word for light, M'ruk - Shadow Maker! Absolutely delicious (ugh - wrong adjective there, d'you think?) lateral thinking! You could do some really deep philosophising about the Orcen mindset and worldview from that one word...But not here, although it has been said that the mutual effect of language and culture cannot be underestimated.

Athviaro

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« Reply #113 on: 04 May 2010, 03:05:13 »

Sure, I'd love to make the dictionary. How should I present it?

Oh, and thanks Athviaro. Hopefully I can keep with that mindset while developing for a long time.

EDIT: Just saw Art's post. I'll definitely start tomorrow, so watch this space!
« Last Edit: 04 May 2010, 03:34:44 by M'ruk Loshashzuk » Logged

Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #114 on: 04 May 2010, 03:33:10 »

Sure, I'd love to make the dictionary. How should I present it?

Make a new thread with all of the words not included in the main dictionary. Then, we can discuss them all together. Arti can then probably copy them into the main thread since he can edit it.
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No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
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« Reply #115 on: 15 May 2010, 02:20:58 »

A couple of things. First, Tharoc, what does Ch'ron-P'thok mean? I was thinking more in like with the Orcen mindset would be m'oc - not orc.

Actually, that's all. Never mind.

Athviaro

EDIT: I guess it has something to do with Cha - cursed, but nothing else there is in the dictionary.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2010, 21:01:57 by Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: 15 May 2010, 15:54:42 »

Ooops, sorry, one more thing. I had a thought as I lay in bed last night (don't blame me, you think I want thought when I'm trying to sleep?) and it was this:

Break down M'ruk, it becomes m and ruk. Now m is a negative prefix, so m'ruk means not ruk. Now ruk is not in the dictionary, or anywhere, so what I propose is this:

Look at an orcs mouth, and what do you see? His lips and his fangs. Therefore what I say is m'ruk means not-lip, or fang, in which case ruk=lip.

Just my two san of orcy goodness.

Athviaro the Language Dissector
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« Reply #117 on: 16 May 2010, 00:26:28 »

Xas- Hot (temperature)
Wrosz- Cold (temperature)
Saak- Fast, quick
M'Saak- Slow (speed)(lit. not fast)
Shi'bor- Scholar (can be an abusive term, like 'nerd')
Xas'Dak- Spur of the moment violence, Rage (lit. Hot violence)
Wrosz'Dak- Assassination, premeditated murder, to assassinate (lit. Cold violence)
Saak'Dak- To burst, to brawl, brawl (lit. Fast violence)
Dak'Dak- Ambush, To ambush (lit. Sudden/violent violence)
M'Saak'Dak- Posion, to posion, torture, to torture (lit. not fast violence)
« Last Edit: 16 May 2010, 00:45:07 by M´ruk Loshashzuk » Logged

Mina
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« Reply #118 on: 02 July 2010, 04:49:29 »

Some thoughts about gestures:

I think it would be a good idea if gestures and sounds played different roles.  So lexical words would be spoken, but their functions are indicated using gestures.  Here's an example:

gestured: (me)  (plural)(my)  (you)(it)
spoken:    bla'u   tak             nom
                talk    pig              eat
"I was told that you ate my pigs"

I'm also thinking that using punctuations to write the gestures like Athviaro suggested might be a good idea.  Here are what I came up with:

Positioning:
     ^
     _
     <
     >
     :
     =
indicates a hand held relatively high, about head level
indicates a hand held relatively low, about chest level
indicates a hand held close to oneself, ie. with retracted arm
indicates a hand held some distance ahead of oneself, ie. with extended arm
indicates a hand held towards the center
indicates a hand held a bit to the side, about where the shoulders are

These together give each hand 8 possible locations it could be in.  The side of the body opposite the signing hand is not a valid location for now; hopefully it won't be needed.

Shapes:
     @
     (
     !
indicates that the hand is closed, in a fist
indicates that the hand is partially open, in the shape of a "c"
indicates the hand is fully open

Others:
     /
     [ and ]
indicates movement from one position to another
used to separate things where necessary to avoid confusion

These can all be done using just one hand.  I kind of imagined an orc holding something (maybe a weapon?) in one hand and gesturing with the other.  It's also very simple (the Wikipedia entry on American Sign Language lists lots of shapes, positions, and movements), but I figure we are aiming for simple anyway. 

And here are some "words":
     I, me
     We
     You (singular)
     You (plural)
     He/she/it
     They
     _<:@
_<:!
_>:@
_>:!
any side position (=) with @
any side position (=) with !

I only have pronouns for now.  The last two were inspired by the following:
A referent locus may be set up by signing a noun and then pointing to a certain spot in sign space. The signer can later refer back to that noun by pointing to its associated location (that is, by using an indexic pronoun), or by incorporating the location into the motion of an indexic verb. For instance, if the signer points to a spot over their right shoulder when referring to their grandmother in another city, they can then mention her again by pointing over their shoulder instead of repeating 'my out-of-town grandmother'. Perhaps as many as eight loci may be productively used to distinguish pronouns in a conversation, before the speakers become overloaded, whereas English is restricted to three third-person pronouns: he, she, and they.
Since there are 4 side positions, that gives us 4 singular and 4 plural 3rd persons we can use.  I don't know if that's too much.  We could always cut it down to something more reasonable and open up some spaces for other words. 

When saying a word, the appropriate pronoun is also signed.  This can perhaps be used for statements equating one thing with another:
zuck[_<:!]
warrior-we
"We are warriors"

ha'akh[_>:@]
tall-you(singular)
"You are tall"

itus[_>=@]
tree-it
"It is a tree"

Like the quoted passage about American Sign Language, perhaps the last form (3rd person) can also be used to set up something to be referred to later, such as in the next example. 

To indicate who does what to whom, start with the sign indicating the one performing the action, then move to the sign indicating the one the action is being performed on, while speaking the verb. 

Morgur[_>=@] uon[_<:@]/[_>=@]
warg-it             I-see-it
"I see/saw a warg"

Slightly modifying the rules, perhaps we can use k'- and -'u only for clarification when certain arguments are missing:

uon'u[_<:@]
see-I
"(unspecified) saw me," or in other words, "I was seen"

k'uon[_<:@]
see-I
"I see (unspecified)"

We can perhaps also indicate Possession.  How about using one of the 3rd person signs while speaking the word for the possessed item, then moving to the sign for the possessor, then back?

zuck[_>=@]   h'rok[^>=!]/[_>=@]/[^>=!]  sharo[^<=@]/[^>=!]
warrior-he1     horse-they-he1-they               kill-he2-they
"He killed a/the warrior's horses"

Back to the example near the start of this post:

bla'u[_>:@] tak[_>=!]/[_<:@]/[_>=!] nom[_>:@]/[_>=!]
talk-I           pig-they-me-they              eat-you(singular)-they
"I was told that you ate my pigs"

Well, after writing all that out, the punctuations look really ugly.  But does the system itself, aside from the way it is written, seem feasible? 
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #119 on: 02 July 2010, 05:18:15 »

It was suggested earlier on, Mina, as Ath indicated and the problems that you run into are A, remembering what each individual symbol means in addition to all the words. B, the number of symbols required to replace the actual gestures is a little staggering and lastly, as you noted, it looks rather ugly.
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