* 
Welcome Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


*
gfxgfx Home Forum Help Search Login Register   gfxgfx
gfx gfx
gfx
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14]
Print
Author Topic: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!  (Read 93760 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mina
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 63
Offline Offline

Posts: 2.834



View Profile
« Reply #195 on: 16 May 2012, 03:50:15 »

Ten languages!  Which ones?  I'm too lazy to learn new languages.   buck

I was mostly thinking about Semitic triconsonantal roots.  I read somewhere that they are thought to have started out as words derived from ordinary syllabic roots, but later certain vowels were dropped which lead to consonants becoming dissociated from vowels, and caused the consonant sequences of those derived words to become regarded as roots themselves.  What you cited sounds like an even better example though.  Would you happen to have a translation for it?  

As for the language being resistant to change, the generally long lifespans of elves might help with that.  I think there would probably still be some changes here and there though, even if the elves were consciously manipulating their language, just not that quickly.  

In any case, I'm not an expert on elves, so I don't really want to speculate too much on what can or cannot work for Styrash specifically.  That's for Rayne and Artimidor to decide.  I'm just here to provide some background information and talk about linguistics in general.    :D
« Last Edit: 16 May 2012, 04:02:36 by Mina » Logged

ishmaelion
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 315


Ishmaelion the philosopher


View Profile
« Reply #196 on: 16 May 2012, 04:13:06 »

*to-eti-mo-ber-et-is 'they carry me' is composed of:

to : proclitic, adding a sense of direction to the verbal root
eti : conjunction marker, always in Wackernagel position, indicates that the verb is part of a new semantic sequence (i.e. a new sentence)
mo : first person infix pronoun
ber : the present tense verbal root!  cool meaning "carry"
et : third person plural ending
is : relative marker, indicating that the agens of the verb has been mentioned before

In two centuries the following occured:
to-eti-mo-ber-et-is > to-ti-m-ber-t-is > to-s-m-ber-t > tabairt
 but for example the non sentence initial form of this verb:
to-mo-ber-et-eti > to-m-ber-t-et > to-ver-s-et > do-veirt

I won't go into the reasons for every change, but as you can see the word changed quite a bit.  evil

I learned Old Irish, Middle Welsh, Middle Breton, Middle Cornish, Hittite, Sanscrit, Hebrew, Old-Saxon, Old French, Middle Dutch, Gothic, Old English, Old Norse and improved my Classical Greek and Latin. What can I say, I like dead languages... :D

P.s. sorry if this post was a bit off topic...
Logged

Mi a welaf gwr
gwelaf fi y paladr
angheu a ofnaf fi
mi a ddifferaf fy merch
cwyddaf
Mina
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 63
Offline Offline

Posts: 2.834



View Profile
« Reply #197 on: 16 May 2012, 04:29:51 »

Thanks for the translation!   grin

And that's...a lot of languages.   shocked

Edit: You know, looking at it more closely, it seems almost polysynthetic.  Certainly didn't expect that from an Indo-european language.  The Wikipedia entry on Old Irish is unfortunately lacking in detail about its grammar.   :(
« Last Edit: 16 May 2012, 04:40:20 by Mina » Logged

Rayne (Alýr)
Dreamress
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 117
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4.466



View Profile
« Reply #198 on: 18 May 2012, 01:03:22 »

Did the issues here regarding compound words for basic concepts get resolved?  undecided I don't see an resolution in the discussion..
Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Mina
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 63
Offline Offline

Posts: 2.834



View Profile
« Reply #199 on: 18 May 2012, 01:39:02 »

Well, Ishmaelion and I seem to agree that it's not something a human language would realistically do, but might be possible for something spoken by a nonhuman species.  Ishmaelion suggested one way to make it work for Styrash: having the language be very resistant to change due to the elves consciously keeping it mostly the same.  This obviously doesn't work for humans; despite the all the effort prescriptivists put into trying to halt language change, languages just keep changing.  But elves are not humans, so maybe it could work for them. 

As I said though, I don't think I'm really qualified to comment on whether elves should be that different from humans.  You know a lot more about them than I do. 
Logged

Rayne (Alýr)
Dreamress
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 117
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4.466



View Profile
« Reply #200 on: 18 May 2012, 03:13:47 »

That sounds good: very useful to know. But that wasn't quite the issue we were discussing: recall that we were trying to decide which words should or should not be created--specifically, if words like "blood" and "stars" should be compound words or should have their own word. Naturally, these are probably rather ancient words, fundamental to life and elven nature. I believe that they should probably have their own word, and not be constructed from other words.
Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Artimidor Federkiel
Administrator
*****

Gained Aura: 538
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 23.097



View Profile Homepage
« Reply #201 on: 18 May 2012, 03:36:41 »

I've given my reasons why I think that words like blood or star can very well be composed words, however, in case this causes you sleepless nights, Rayne, feel free to change it. The question however remains, when one should be allowed to compose what words and when not and what to do with lots of other already constructed words.
Logged



"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Mina
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 63
Offline Offline

Posts: 2.834



View Profile
« Reply #202 on: 18 May 2012, 03:44:14 »

Would it be acceptable for you guys if there were both roots and compound words for such concepts?  As I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion, real languages do contain synonyms. 
Logged

Rayne (Alýr)
Dreamress
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 117
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4.466



View Profile
« Reply #203 on: 18 May 2012, 03:52:01 »

Quote
I've given my reasons why I think that words like blood or star can very well be composed words
Were there any reasons you gave that I did not address? I thought I made a pretty good argument, but if you think I responded incompletely or incomprehensibly,  please let me know. I feel my argument is very strong, and don't want my ineloquence to get in the way of conveying it.  :)


Quote
The question however remains, when one should be allowed to compose what words and when not and what to do with lots of other already constructed words.
Well, I already made a proposal in that regard:

Quote
I think the words for "caravan", "corset", and even "store" would probably be constructed in Styrash, as they are 1) not related to nature and 2) not frequently found in elves culture/society.

Constructed words should be used to relate things that are part of elven culture and nature to things that are not, not to relate things that are more distant from elven culture/nature (gems) to things that are closer (star).


Quote
Would it be acceptable for you guys if there were both roots and compound words for such concepts?  As I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion, real languages do contain synonyms. 
I don't mind synonyms; I think there may already be a few in the dictionary.
Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Artimidor Federkiel
Administrator
*****

Gained Aura: 538
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 23.097



View Profile Homepage
« Reply #204 on: 18 May 2012, 04:39:23 »

Ah, well. Synonyms are fine with me, there could be a version of words that judges the appearance or the function in combined form (in case of the stars and blood) and there could be another word. That's ok with me, but complicates things unnecessarily if you ask me.

I see more merit in a unique approach like an oligosynthetic language than a copy of a human one in general - after all we're trying to make the elves a completely unique culture, so why just copy what is common for in human languages?
Logged



"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Rayne (Alýr)
Dreamress
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 117
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4.466



View Profile
« Reply #205 on: 18 May 2012, 04:55:43 »

Quote
To be clear: my issue is not that there are constructed words. It's about what words are roots and which are constructed.
Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Bard Judith
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 365
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 7.653


Dwarvenmistress


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #206 on: 18 May 2012, 08:56:02 »

Not really a language expert here (Dwarven is pretty much based on my main mother tongue with direct transliteration), and not taking any sides.... but...

I think Rayne's general and light-handed principle of considering elven philosophy and connection with nature when deciding whether a word is root or construct is a fairly effective tool to use.   We need to 'back-story' the language while remembering that philology recapitulates philosophy.     And trying to think from a non-human perspective is also a useful principle to keep in mind.

  Sooo.....just for example, when I was designing specific words for ThergerimTaal, I didn't just give them North, South, East, and West....two-dimensional directions....but actual three-dimensional orientations that allow them to move in pitch blackness beneath the surface of the earth.  Dwarves have a specific word for 'upwards 90 degrees, outwards 45 degrees, and 45 degrees to the right' (sort of the position your arm would be in after snapping off a salute, or pointing out Venus in the morning sky.... :D )

Elves would probably have 'root' words for anything that exists naturally, and more of them than we would (Korean has one word - hobak -  for 'gourd vegetables', which we distinguish with 'pumpkin', 'squash', 'acorn squash', 'zucchini', and 'eggplant', among others...)   while they would certainly need to construct more 'civilized' or 'alien' concepts.   Depending upon when an idea/thing entered their culture, those new words might morph to roots over the course of time.   Many of our Greek and Latin morphemes are firmly embedded in English, and we frequently use them as constructive elements.

Just my two sans there, and hopefully helpful to the discussion.

Hugs all round, and a plate of doch nut cookies while you are chatting,
Judith
Logged

"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
Artimidor Federkiel
Administrator
*****

Gained Aura: 538
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 23.097



View Profile Homepage
« Reply #207 on: 19 May 2012, 01:56:43 »

Ok, suggestion: Let's have some root words then and use the existing composed ones where they are out of place, say, as poetical synonyms, which can refer to the same thing in the proper context. Like a human poet would refer to a star maybe as "glittering skylight", so an elf might also have a poetic version like "miés'efér". Such constructed words can exist aside from the regular roots and are known to follow the dominating oligosynthetic tendencies Styrásh is known for. Yet in cases when no synonyms, but regular words are composed, the root words serve as the basis.
Logged



"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Eldor Delrossa
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 21
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 260


Researcher of Brownies and Magic


View Profile
« Reply #208 on: 08 February 2013, 23:42:22 »

Just a couple of words that I created for developing purposes:

linénlón (m.) - grove (lit. "little forest")

náfrefér (m.) - ember (lit. "fading fire") 

Náfrér'linlón (m.) - The Grove of Embers (lit. "Ember Grove")


Note: I'm not sure if proper nouns get defined as masculine or feminine, but Náfrér'linlón would be masculine if they do.
Logged

"The trials and tribulations of Brownies over the centuries have made them wary of humans. I am humbled to be called 'Brownie Friend'."- Eldor Delrossa
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14]
Print
Jump to:  

Recent
[12 December 2017, 16:17:36]

[31 May 2017, 06:35:55]

[06 May 2017, 05:27:04]

[03 April 2017, 01:15:03]

[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]

[15 March 2017, 02:23:07]

[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]

[14 March 2017, 20:23:43]

[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]

[31 January 2017, 08:45:52]

[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]

[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]

[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]

[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]

[11 September 2016, 22:58:56]

[03 September 2016, 22:22:23]

[02 September 2016, 04:06:03]

[02 September 2016, 02:44:27]
Members
Total Members: 1040
Latest: leaftanya12
Stats
Total Posts: 144681
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 69
Online Ever: 226
(06 November 2012, 05:38:23)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 7
Total: 7

Last 10 Shouts:
14 September 2017, 09:40:04
Hello all! It's been a minute since I poked my nose in here. Can't remember if I ever did anything useful.
09 May 2017, 14:17:18
Ah, too bad that internet is so restricted in China, Ferra. Can't be much fun surfing the web that way if Big Brother's watching you... Hope you enjoy your stay nevertheless!
03 May 2017, 17:41:19
Hi, dear Arti and other developers!

This year I am in China and cannot use any Google services including YouTube. For this reason I stopped uploading new Nepris videos. I can also not read any comments there.

It just crossed my mind that this information might be useful to you.

Cheers

F
26 March 2017, 12:48:56
Hello to anyone that might read this. :)
22 December 2016, 02:38:16
Merry Christmas everyone!
29 November 2016, 01:45:48
Hey all!
11 November 2016, 09:19:02
Calling all developers; come help me write the New-Santhala article ^^
15 September 2016, 02:24:10
Still no problems here, Erutan...
14 September 2016, 14:55:28
Still having trouble accessing the RPG side, anyone else? Or is it just me?
27 August 2016, 21:17:33
Short note: We had a bit of downtime Friday/Saturday night due to a server change. Site went online first, message boards took a while longer - now everything should be back to normal.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2005, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Theme based on Cerberus with Risen adjustments by Bloc and Krelia
Modified By Artimidor for The Santharian Dream
gfx
gfxgfx gfxgfx