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Author Topic: Thinking about distances - or how big is Caelereth?  (Read 5617 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« on: 08 January 2004, 15:05:00 »

I thought I better post the few things I have already to give you an rough estimate, how big Caelereth could be. There is a long way to go though. I would be pleased to have here some help with collecting things. It hasn't be too exact, as soon as we have decided, how big Caelereth is, I can do the whole thing thoroughly.

First some earthen distances to compare with:


Some rough distances on Earth:


South-America:                                                           7500 km
North America(Canal Prince of Wales to Yucatan):     7500 km
Africa (Algier-Kapstadt):                                              7860 km
Scotland(Hebrides)-Italy(Sicily)                                   2800 km
North-Norway - Crete                                                 3900 km
British Islands(Cape of Wrath-Hastings)                      900 km
Sahara East-West                                                      5300 km
Sahara North-South                                                   2500 km

Paths used by the „runners“ of the Incas: greatest length appr. 3000 km

Europe:
Rom-Paris                 1450 km
Rom - München          925
Rom - Helsinki           3000




Relative distances Santharia


Dragons Maw - Strata           320 mm
Nyermers -Santhala              150 mm
Santhala-Marcogg                60 mm
Strata Bardavos                   80 mm        

Sharadon forest 40mmx15mm    
Quallian              10mmx5mm  
Vontron               8mmx8mm
Thaelon               60mmx15mm

Strata-Argor        200mm
Argor-Heckra      61mm.....60mm



Relative Distances Caelereth  


Strata - Argor      330 mm                       (330x6=1980)
Argor Heckra      105 mm ....100 mm

Take all the following numbers  x 6, then you are in the above relative measurement


Deep Winds Portal- Strata 107 mm

Sea of Tardulan (Aeruillin), southern shore, northernmost island ,if you look straight up in the north 185 mm

Small island at the edge of the left border, located in the middle - most western island of Yamalquain    280 mm

Nybelmar 60mm x 40mm

**********

Attention, the numbers above are arbitrary, only the relation fits - approximately!


OK, we said Santharia might be as big as South America, then the numbers would fit well for the RahazDath, but Santharia might be a bit big compared to Europe (twice as big)

Lets double the above numbers (and add a 0):

Strata-Bardavos:                                   1600 strals
Strata- Dragon‘s Maw                              6400 strals
Nyermersys-Santhala                            3000strals

Strata - Deep Winds Portal                   12840strals

Nybelmar                                              7200stral x 4800 strals  

North-South                                          22200strals
East- West                                            33600strals


The overall size is not bad, the Rahaz-Dath could use some more space, Central Santharia is a bit big - compared with Europe.

Would be nice, if somebody else could make up some other distances, f.e. The Roman Empire or how big the empire of Karl Vth was (in who‘s empire the sun never set), how long the distances were and how long the ships needed to get to South America.

Other things to collect here would be:
How long did it take to surround South America, South Africa....
Howmlong did it take to travel from Rom to Middle Germany..
         

So now: How big is Caelereth?

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 3/22/04 16:41
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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #1 on: 08 January 2004, 18:07:00 »

Found this one about Ancient Roman sea travel:
www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/travel2.html

Will try to find more...



I'd think that the size of Santharia will heavily determine how the governmental structure will work. At the size of South America I can very well imagine that the rank of the human lords governing the provinces would be less Count or Duke but even something along Viceking, Grandduke or whatever. It will then also appear less likely that they'll stay in one provincal capital but more and more have to travel around to keep in touch with the people who then would be similarily selfsufficient as in the Middle Ages.


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #2 on: 08 January 2004, 17:12:00 »

And the King of all would have to travel even more - like the German "Kaisers" had to. Then we need the equivalent of the "Kaiserpfalzen", if the King doesn't want to stay with his Lords.

That link is VERY usefull btw, thanks!!!

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 1/8/04 0:13
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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #3 on: 09 January 2004, 14:13:00 »

What exactly is "mm", Talia? We might think about reducing this gigantic size a bit perhaps, so that Santharia is still big, but not that enormous.

In this respect I'd like to mention the link  which Judy gave concerning Medieval Demographics. Though it doesn't directly deal with distances here, this can help a good deal to determine how many people will there live and how many villages/cities etc. we need realistically.

Mentioned on this page is also a link to a page called "The Domesday Book" (for whatever reason it is called that way) - actually it's a wonderful calculator concerning inhabitants once you have a kindgom size. This page is based on the mentioned demographics above, which were done by the "Fief" author, the medieval resource I already recommended quite a while ago.


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« Reply #4 on: 09 January 2004, 14:29:00 »

Art, "mm" I think means millimeter at least it does in our U.S. mathematics.  But I don't think Talia is thinking in millimeters.  However she may be.

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I live to but to serve my Goddess Seyella and Talon Hawke; son, heir and Wizard of the White Tower-defender of the lands and peoples of Caelereth!
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #5 on: 09 January 2004, 15:52:00 »

Yes, mm is millimeter, but they are not relevant her, as I said, it is the relative distance between the places which counts.

The mm originate from the print out I did. On this printout there are 800mm from Bardavos to Strata, on the next printout of the whole of Caelereth the numbers between the same places are of course smaller (6 times in fact)

Santharia on the whole could be a bit smaller, but then the whole world gets smaller...

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #6 on: 19 February 2004, 15:53:00 »

Talia, could you post some decided dimensions here. I think they're handy to have in mind next time I look at one of those "tiny" forests that rival the Amazonas. ;)  


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Bard Judith
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« Reply #7 on: 23 February 2004, 00:29:00 »

It's not just government that the distances will affect; it will be very important in terms of travel and trade (well duh! :devilish )!

I notice that some less-well-researched fantasy series (no names, please....) rely on travel spells, transport magic, dimensional portals, and other cheap devices in order to get their heroes rapidly from one town to the next.  

Since in Sarvonia at least the average merchant does not have that sort of high-level Xeua at his command ;)  we need to take into account just how far a horse pulling a wagon can go in one day - or how quickly a medium-size sailboat can travel along the coast - or how fast the current in the Mashdai River will carry a barge downstream...   all of those physical laws need to be taken into account when we calculate distance.  

Sorry if this sounds hypocritical when taken in conjunction with my colourful (but spacially inaccurate) map of the Marcogg area!  It wasn't intended to replace Art's lovely greyscale work or even for public consumption, but just to give our sage an idea of the main roads, routes, and place names of the area...   so don't take any sizes or distances on that for granted - it's only approximate.

We may have to cheat a bit ourselves: in Holland and Korea (two relatively tiny landmasses) only a century ago it was still possible to find farmers and fishermen who had never travelled out of the village in which they were born - even to the next town over the hill or across the polder... so geography is not the only limiting factor, obviously!  :biggrin

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #8 on: 23 February 2004, 05:27:00 »

We thought of this, Judy. We need a well developed road system, that is for sure. But it is possible to cover great distances if you think at the Inka system. And trade has not always happen on a grand style, but in smaller areas. Only special goods are transported over bigger distances - or the ships get faster and so on.

Didn't manage to get to calculating  up some smaller distances within Santharia, hopefully this evening.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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Tyrian Jadewalker
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« Reply #9 on: 23 February 2004, 17:04:00 »

Are these distances that are being suggested/defined for our use only or for the compendium?

Because I am sure that at this point in Santharia there would not be an exact measurement as to what the distances were.  Even if someone actually went and made the measurements and maps and such, they will make mistakes.  As well, it will not be the same person who does the measurements everywhere so the method of measuring may be done differently.

For the roads you can probably get close enough to an exact measurement that it won't matter all that much, but for places like the Rahaz Dath, or any of the bigger forests, it woild be next to impossible for someone to get an exact measurement.  Well, they will get a measurement that they believe to be exact but there will be some error in it :)

Just a thought...though I do agree that we need to know the approximate sizes of areas in Caelereth.

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #10 on: 23 February 2004, 18:20:00 »

It is mainly for the"creators" use, not for an entry in the compendium, though we might need an place somewhere, perhaps as a sticky in the places forum.
Of course the people can't measure as exactly as we can, but they were pretty good in some places.
I'm still not finished with it, hope for tomorrow.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #11 on: 24 February 2004, 10:51:00 »

Ok, here we are!

We decided (mainly Art and me) in IRC(19.01.04) about a general size for Santharia (direct line Dragons Maw - Strata) of about 5000strals/kms. (in brackets for 4800km) That is quite a bit smaller than North- or South-America, but considereably bigger than Europe. Maybe you could compare (very roughly)Santharia till Marcogg/Seraia as Europe and then take part of the Sahara to it for the Rahaz - Dath and the Narfost Planes (I said VERY Roughly).

Some numbers now for distancies between some cities(direct lines as well, the road length will increase of course)

(1stral = 1km)    

Dragons Maw-Strata:-----------5000 (4800) strals          320mm
Dragons  Maw - Bardavos----4062 (3900) strals
Dragons  Maw - Seraia--------3516 (3375) strals
Dragons  Maw - Santhala-----23448 (2250) strals

Santhala - Nyermersys-----2187,5 (2100) strals
Santhala - Marcogg---------937,5 (900} strals
Santhala - Elsreth------------937,5 (900} strals
Santhala - Chylikis----------703 (675) strals (next habour)
Chylikis - Varcopas----------700strals

Voldar  - Milkengrad---------470 (450) strals
Strata - Bardavos-------------1250 (1200) strals

Chondra - Marcogg-------235 (225) strals
Auturian Woods-----------500 (480) x max 266 (255)strals(north of Marcogg)
Mithral Mountains length: 625(600)strals
Valley north of Marcogg (broad, middle value)200strals

That seems quite a lot, but the woods and the Rahaz-Dath need to have a decent size as well to provide habitats for the elven kind.

Now, how far comes a rider with a good horse in one day - 30 strals or more? there are some definitions around, how many squaremeters a man with a horse can suround in one day, any idea where to find it?

We will need a good road system , that is clear, maybe even something like royal riders along that road system with stations for fresh horses and so on (Like the Inkas had them - they managed to run 1500km in a few days)

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 3/22/04 16:42
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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
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« Reply #12 on: 24 February 2004, 19:42:00 »

Wow!  Talia, you and Art must have done an awesome amount of work to sort all that out!  I'll copy that last message and paste it into my Measurements of Santharia document for permanent reference...

Now... some travel quotes for you so we can work out details:

"Most horses can walk 4 miles in one hour or 1 mile every 15 minutes. Trotting would take about half that time. The endurance competiters will ride 100 miles in a straight 9-10 hour period. These are extremely fine tuned horses and riders, and the exception. In historic journals from the 1700's and 1800's 25 miles a day was a lot of traveling to do in one day- mounted or pulling a carriage."

"In 1737, Governor Gordon sent three fast walkers accompanied by three Indians to establish a new line. Before the end of three days, all men except Edward Marshall, a famous hunter, were exhausted. Marshall had covered sixty miles! "

"As the leg goes through a full cycle, the human walks two paces of length 1.14 m as measured on a volunteer. The speed is v = 2 x 1.14 m x (0.61 / sec) = 1.4 m/sec. With 1 mph = 0.447 m/sec, v = 3.1 mph. This is a remarkably reasonable estimate of a comfortable walking speed for an adult human. "

"The mean maximum speed that participants achieve across all conditions is 1.36 meters/second (N=285, SD = .162)."

" A well designed and sailed non-racing sailboat in good conditions can average just under 100 miles a day. but this depends a lot on how long and wide the sail boat is...."

"Remember that in the oceans there are currents, and most sailers make use of the currents for extra speed. So if the current in the water you are sailing though goes at 10kph, and your boat has a max hull speed of 8 and you are doing that, your total speed (assuming you are traveling the same direction as the current) is 18kph.  As to how long it will take to cross the atlantic well, it was done in 55 days with a 10 foot sailboat. (The smallest to do so was 5 feet 4 inches long.) A 27 foot sailboat did it in 48 days, but had to deal with some nasty storms and a knockdown. "

An ox or mule-drawn covered wagon with 2500 pounds of supplies could cover an average distance of 10-15 miles per day across the American Prairies.

"A Hansom cab speed was about 9 miles per hour" (a horse-drawn buggy used in Victorian London).

"Barges have played a major role in France's economy for centuries, transporting both goods and people. Barges navigate well in shallow water, able to go anywhere there is three feet of water or more....Barge speed is limited to 3 mph on the canals and 10 mph on the rivers".


www.reality.com/dmback/lhtravel.htm is an interesting fantasy page on distances & speeds - someone else has already done the work!

www.heptovania.com/world/...travel.htm is also a good read and even Artimidor might envy the simple but efficient design of the page...

Hope some of this will help us!  

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #13 on: 25 February 2004, 04:40:00 »

Two very helpful links! Thanks!

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #14 on: 25 February 2004, 15:59:00 »

Chinese/Mongol courier riders covered about 300 kilometres a day(sometimes even more), but that was with horse stations every 20 or so miles and good roads.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

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