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Author Topic: Santharian Timeline Discussion - the Maps  (Read 8194 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« on: 31 October 2005, 11:00:00 »

Talia and I have tried to compose a first map of the world of Caelereth as it looked like at approx. 15.000 b.S. just before the Burning of the Tree of Life. This map should be a reference map for further discussions on the historical developments like the migrations of the tribes. Further maps should follow dealing with the the drifting apart of the continents after various incidents like the Burning of the Tree, the War of the Chosen etc. These work-in-progress maps should be the basis for historical discussions, we should see to slowly adjust things where necessary and to work towards the current state of the continents and the locations of the tribes.

Here is this first map:

(click on image to enlarge)



As you can see all the landmasses are closer together to form one main continent, from which the others derived. In the centre of this "circle" is the Tree of Life, from which the migration of the main races started. Here we see only the centre containing the landmasses at the beginning of time, later they will drift further apart and therefore the circle you see now containing the continents will be much larger (drifting on the empty sea, providing the landmasses are still moving away). You can also see the names of the future continents on this map, though their shapes on this map of course are twisted and you'll find them on other locations. Here and there a few bridges between lands probably existed (not always directly shown on the map) and some landmasses you see here don't exist anymore due to the fact that either the Void swallowed them or they sank below the surface of the sea (like for example the Eight Winds Bay). We also tried to incorporate various things which were also already mentioned somewhere at tribe entries or at the History pages, e.g. to make possible historical facts like the landing of Ciosa at the 12th millenium b.S., then the rather easy discovery of Aeruillin, the loss of the connection with this continent, then the much more difficult re-discovery much later etc. (see later maps)

Ok, so much for now, take a look. We'll try to do another map showing the landmasses before the War of the Chosen next, so that we can develop a historical timeline from there.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 10/31/05 22:26
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Grunok the Exile
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« Reply #1 on: 31 October 2005, 15:18:00 »

The first thing which struck me when I looked at this map was: "Where is the rest of Aeruillin?"

I always thought Aeruillin was once a vast continent, probably roundish in shape, and two or three times the size of what is drawn on the map here. I imagined the rest had fallen / disappeared / whatever into the void.

It would be cool if Aeruillin could once have been massive, and is now just a third or less the size it once was (in our reality, at least). Whether or not you have the space to do that on the map is a possible issue but it is my humble opinion that that would be cool.  And make sense and stuff.  Yeah.





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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #2 on: 01 November 2005, 15:28:00 »

Maps 2, 3 and 4 - replies & details later:

(click on images to enlarge)






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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/2/05 19:51
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« Reply #3 on: 03 November 2005, 11:26:00 »

Wow these maps are fantastic!  And I love the way you incorporated the migration of the races.  Great job everyone!!, especially you Art.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #4 on: 03 November 2005, 13:06:00 »

Here come the next 3, which represents the status as far as we got so far while Talia's stay in Vienna:

(click on images tco enlarge)







Please note that these are development maps, so they should help you get the idea who derived when from where etc. It's all not final, but it should serve as the main guideline so far especially for the development of the human tribes. Various tribes or continents were deliberately neglected so far in order not to get the maps too full and also because there are still a lot of questions open. So you find only key elf tribes for example, but no dwarves or orcs etc. Also Nybelmar & Aeruillin are not taken in consideration yet at the later maps. But what is important is that a start was made. Though there hopefully shouldn't be dramatic changes to this concept, because we tried to incorporate the most important data we had already available on the site.

Putting the pieces all together also means that we have to try to iron out some contradictions and change dates or even parts of entries for the sake of consistency. Overviews on all the existing tribes with the key dates of their development should be made as soon as possible so that we don't forget about any of them and have something concrete for reference.

I conclude for now with a few notes we've made:

Changes necessary to entries on the site:

- Glandorians came before the Kanapans to the Kanapan peninsula (between 13.000 and 12.0000).
- The Kanapans came after the Fall of F'v'cl'r and part of the Glandorians moved to Cyhalloi (Kasumarii?), another part moved to found Ciosa (they became later the Avennorians), the rest remained and was integrated into the Kanapan society (Eferme subtribe).

Major changes caused by the War of the Chosen

- Landmasses NW of F'v'cl'r disappear, the Eight Winds Bay is formed.
- Argor, Hckra and Norong'Sorno come into existence (Narfost Cliffs?).
- Tandala Mountains are formed.
- Major settlements south of the Thaelon (near the two volcanoes) vanish.
- Ice Elves of the Forest of Contamar at the peninsula of Iol are (nearly) extinct.
- Nybelmar and Aeruillin are seperated from Sarvonia.
- The ties between Avennoria and Shan'Thai are sewered.
- Climate in the region of the Darians (Pre-Shendar) more and more changes. The land turns into a desert.
- Knowledge on Yamalquain gets lost.
- Akdor is seperated from Northern Sarvonia.
- Center of culture west of Shan'Thai (now Yar'Dangs) vanishes.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/2/05 20:07
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Gean Firefeet
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« Reply #5 on: 03 November 2005, 15:37:00 »

Art, could you add a small explanatory text where the colours you used for the arrows are referenced? Makes it easier interpreting the migration patterns you two've noted.

I see in the Major chances list that Talia was with you while created the maps (a lot of Shendar stuff ;) ). Some of the other continental/tribal developers should definately add their own historical events to this list.

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #6 on: 04 November 2005, 03:22:00 »

We didn't put too much thought into the use of colours (related colours for related tribes etc if at all), we thought about changing this, maybe for each timespan an extra colour ..or extra colours for the races and lighter and darker shades for the time- intervals. However, this crude map has to suffice for now - it took enough time anyway ;)

Of course the other developers would be needed, for we had just the compendium we draw our information from. But Drogo is not here, no elven expert. We didn't include the dwarves and the orcs yet - but we had to start at some point. These races have to be included later and probably adapted to what we get.

Nybelmar might change some of the very early dates, but that should not be a problem, I hope.

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« Reply #7 on: 04 November 2005, 09:09:00 »

So the War of the Chosen actually became a fact and not just an elven myth.  And the maps are still great!  I see after the WoC, that the land masses seperated dramatically, I also see in the map that some land masses just kind of disappeared into the void.  

This is just an idea, but could have those land masses finally make up the land masses that are outside of the void.  I am speaking of the island of Mythe, or where Delonaire resides.  It is just an idea and it fits in with the overall scheme of things, I think.

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #8 on: 04 November 2005, 11:02:00 »

Not really, Capher, for thought the brownies are located "somehow" in the void (VOID or void only?) I would rather opt for these being in another dimension as well, as it is supposed for Mythe and now for the "Netherworld" as well. If these lands are just outside the void in the VOID, then how should this be thought? Do they have their own bubbles formed while they vanished? Wouldn't one still be able to see them? A lot of problems.. The easier approach would be other dimensions, I think this is mentioned somewhere already on the site. Av dreamed these many worlds...

to the war of the Chosen - SOMETHING happened back then, maybe it was just a major perturbation of the "VOID" inside the disk - a model Theo proposed to explain volcanos and such - and which I like more and more.

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« Reply #9 on: 04 November 2005, 12:13:00 »

Yeah, I think the multidimensional thingy makes it more interesting. For it allows for our Universe aside the Caelerethian Universe, and perhaps Tolkien's world as well. And that can make things intriguing.

And well, for the Void-model I proposed some time ago. If you like it, Talia, I might start working on it again. Though I do not know to what extent Art is interested in such elaborations.
Still, my model wasn't called into existance to explain the effects ascribed to the WotC, however, it could be expanded to cover those things as well.

I leave the discussion on that matter to you and Art, but you can bellring me if you think my model should be worked on again. I still have some schematics lying around somewhere to clarify things.

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« Reply #10 on: 04 November 2005, 13:52:00 »

There is no need to work on it much more now, Theo. If we just can assume, that there is a flat disk of VOID in the centre of the disk, which makes trouble now and then, that is ok. I could integrate it in Model I just as it is as an developer's assumption. There are so many other things to do which are more relevant for now. The orb of Ximax could then be explained as well as a tiny part which escaped somehow..

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #11 on: 04 November 2005, 14:55:00 »

I wouldn't say that the War of the Chosen is "fact" and everything we put into these maps here is "what happened", precise history, Capher. We shouldn't forget that (more or less) accurate historical dates here on Earth start only a few millenia before Christ, and even then not everything can be dated precisely, also it depends on the culture etc. However, with these maps we try to reconstruct the most likely development which has taken place concerning the seperating of the landmasses, the migrations of the tribes.

You know, some might say the great Flood mentioned in the Bible was just a natural catastrophe or an accumulation of catastrophes, while someone who believes in the Bible would strictly deny that. In the same way you could say that there might have been some wars of archmages in Sarvonia, but while the ones see it as nothing extraordinary, other would say that the Gods used these mages as pawns and that their powers could even destroy whole continents. Don't take anything for granted, though. - But for us as developers we need to have a rough guideline how it all happened (at least most likely), even if the explanations behind it can vary.

@Grunok: Methinks Aeruillin is large enough - would it be larger, Sarvonia would look pretty small compared to it. Also don't forget that this continent moves into the Void, and what you can experience in the Void is not clearly defined. It could very well be that the Void itself appears to people who enter it as an endless land - and as there are not that many spots where you can enter the Void directly from the land, it might appear as if Aeruillin is much larger, because it reaches into the Void.


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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #12 on: 04 November 2005, 15:38:00 »

As already mentioned one of the next steps here should be to compose rough timelines for the tribes (and their ancestors) and mention what they did at key events when and why. These timelines should be written down one after the other and compiled, sorted by race, and should go with the maps posted above, because various things might not be directly evident at the maps, so explanations and details are needed.

I start with an example:

Human Tribe: The Avennorians

- Have their ancestors in the Glandorians, who moved to the Kanapan Lands (eastern part of Northern Sarvonia) between 13.000 and 12.000 b.S.

- Around estimated 11350 Glandorian expeditions brought these people further east to Cyhalloi and to the south, where they landed and founded a settlement they named "Ciosa" after the leader of the expedition.

- In the region around Ciosa (which is now the Santharian province of Manthria) natives lived which were referred to as the "Darians" (ancestors of today's Shendar). They were driven away by the Avennorians and moved further south towards the region, which is now the Rahz-Dth Desert and at the 11th century b.S. was still fertile green land as it was much further away from the sun in the south.

- Between 10.000 and 9.800 the Avennorian expeditions move further south and discover new land, Shan'Thai (now Aeruillin), which during this time is very close to the Sarvonian continent.

- After the War of the Chosen the Aeruillin landmasses are seperated from the Sarvonian mainland and the contact to Aeruillin is lost. Instead the Avennorian influence in today's Manthrian region spreads and Ciosa develops to become a central port.

etc. - More to be added when further maps are drawn. But these rough, short outlines should do the job to get a good orientation.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/3/05 22:39
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« Reply #13 on: 04 November 2005, 18:24:00 »

I think this is the time to put into discussion the matter of the origin of the Helcrani and elven presence in Sothern Sarvonia. The idea (which I followed ever since I joined the Dream, which I implied in several private posts with Artimidor and Lamertu, but haven't discussed thoroughly with anybody yet) is the following.

The elven empire of F'v'cl'r stretched till southern sarvonia. One of the places they settled and left monuments was Efirhal island. The remarkable Golden Bridge could not be made by any human even in modern day Sanrharia. They were the ones who planted the Artapherana on Efirhal hill. The place were they had a settlement later became the center of the city of Milkengrad.
The elves used humans also to enforce their authority. Some of them became later the Helcrani. After the fall of the empire some of these human mercenaries left their weapons and decided to live peacefully as farmers. However, the murder of an elven prince set the events in motion that eventualy created the Helcrani. It is not random that they are trilingual; speaking the elven language, a special language of their own and the common santharian language. Nor is it random that these farmers became such fierce warriors.
When the Goltherhim led the Helcrani to the area that Milkengrad was built, they knew this story.

Well, this is the idea in brief and I 'm wondering if it fits to the plan...

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #14 on: 15 November 2005, 16:15:00 »

Hmmm... Need to think this through a bit... Efirhal Island could have been at least an outpost of F'v'cl'r. F'v'cl'r could have been more a great realm than some sort of larger town as we have constructed it here, so it could have been much larger. Need to think about it.

@Everyone else - raise your voices now if your spot problems or want to add something. I plan to continue with short descriptions and further maps here in the long run. And what you develop concerning history should fit to this scheme.


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