Demons <-> Monsters

Koldar Mondrakken

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Demons <-> Monsters

« on: 29 April 2002, 19:54:00 »

Update: Moved Mephugor
Update: Corrected Téi'Hái

Ok, for the sake of getting these things straight and stop cutting on Judith's illness-weakened nerves (

), here's my proposal how to split these creatures up:

Monsters/unnatural Beasts:
... Gamosh-Ra
... Tam-Rek
...Jhulnyor (Amphibious Demon)
... Venazla

Are all either cursed souls, created by mages or are of unknown origin yet wandering the lands of Sorren "freely".

Demons of the Netherworld:
... Mephguór(?)
... Chasm Demon(?)
... Sephet
... Mhorashty
... Téi'Hái

...Shavak - High Demon/Demon-God
...The High Demon Khalkaroth
...Mystrans(are not in list)
...Netherbeasts(are not in list)
...Unbeast/Undemon(?, 'cause of it's strange appearance)

Come directly from the Netherworlds, they're meaner, they're stronger, they're what I'd call demons!

If I forgot one, add it. The main reference I'd taken to put them in one or the other category was in which plane they're created. If it was unclear or not explained in the entry I did was all humans do: I guessed.
So I might be wrong.

If they're creatures of Sorren (either created by a mage or just some kind of wicked beast) they should be beasts. If they're coming from the Netherworld(by being summoned or by other means) they're demons.

Any suggestions, corrections, flames?

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 4/30/02 4:58:48 pm


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Tarquet Galbar

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Re: Demons <-> Monsters

« Reply #1 on: 30 April 2002, 02:55:00 »

Téi'Hái belong in the Netherworld. They are very powerful and hard to summon.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Bard Judith

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Re: Demons <-> Monsters

« Reply #2 on: 30 April 2002, 16:40:00 »

(bats her eyes at Koldar)

As usual, our knight is well-organized...

It's a great outline. Very consistent and easy to understand. Now MOVE THE WHOLE THING INTO COSMOLOGY and all will be well!!!

Really, what I STILL don't understand is why any of these beings are listed here at all? Darkwinds, Auratic winds, Chaos spirits, and the other magical entities of good and evil ALL belong in a super/sub-natural classification. So would angels if we had any. Druids and light elves go under Races. All animals, whether or not they are magically influenced or designed, go under beasts.... (centaurs, mermaids, etc.)

But demons, by their very name and nature, no matter how sentient.stupid, powerful/weak, limited/freeranging, are beings which originate in spiritual forces and thus should (glares stubbornly at the rest of the people in this thread) be put in Cosmology.

Tell you what, I'm sick of arguing about it. I'm gonna copy all the threads and discussions relevant to the issue and send it to Art in one master email and ask him what he thinks. Then I'll abide by his decision, whatever it is.

Bard Judith


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Viresse

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Re: Demons <-> Monsters

« Reply #3 on: 30 April 2002, 18:50:00 »

I just realized. Where are the Angels? Are they the Light Elves? And what fun are they if they aren't seen like Demons are?

Viresse Sheelala

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Koldar Mondrakken

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????

« Reply #4 on: 30 April 2002, 22:35:00 »

Bard, I don't see your point herer. That's what the whole thread is about. All demons will be removed from the bestiary and move into the cosmology section.
All the weird creatures will remain in the bestiary as extraordinary/supernatural monsters.

There's no point in argueing about it because there's no arguement but agreement. I only want to organize the reorganization. Hence the name.

@Viresse: No angels yet. I thought about them to be similar to demons but from the good side AND I'd put all the God's beasts that exist (Gryph for Queprur e.g. or Unicorn for Foiros) in their context as well.


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Tarquet Galbar

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Re: ????

« Reply #5 on: 01 May 2002, 02:12:00 »

Alright, well I'm back now, so I got my Beastmasterness back.

The point we're trying to make, Judith, is that some of these things with the label 'demon' aren't really cosmological at all. Even those that have supernatural powers, they aren't part of the Netherworld or have no cosmological position, and are more like powerful animals.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Bard Judith

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Re: ????

« Reply #6 on: 01 May 2002, 03:01:00 »

Koldar: I think you and I are in agreement here, but we are quibbling over vocabulary. Thanks for clarifying. However, I STILL have a problem. Please bear with me while I explain.

I quote you:

"All demons will be removed from the bestiary and move into the cosmology section.
All the weird creatures will remain in the bestiary as extraordinary/supernatural monsters."

Great! But now Tarq says " some of these things with the label 'demon' aren't really cosmological at all..."

Then my point is, since you asked, Why are you CALLING THEM DEMONS? If they are 'demons', by definition they go in cosmology. If they are beasts, please don't call them demons. Either they are tapping into evil supernatural powers (demons) or they aren't (beasts).

(clears throat, changes subject somewhat)

To be perfectly frank (and still trying to remain courteous) I think we have a superfluity of evil demonic monsters, whatever they are called. It's going to seriously unbalance our cosmos, the same way as if someone created a new race of powerful magic-using flesheating giant metallic ostriches that breath fire! Hmmmmm....

And Viresse is right to point out that we do not have a 'good' equivalent... for example, we don't have 'blessed spirits' which can be summoned to do battle against these demonic creations. We don't have 'guardian angels' who protect Santharians from nasty toothy servants of Co'oor. We don't have 'cherubim' who aid white mages the way that imps serve necromancers....

NOT that I'm suggesting that we should, by the way! A lot of the above terms come from a common Judao-Christian religious heritage and shouldn't be used in Santharia any more than the terms "meter/centimeter/millimeter" or the specialized vocabulary of technology. But it's still true that our universe is feeling a tad unbalanced.

I'm not trying to put a lid on anyone's creative efforts, or tell anyone what they should or shouldn't write. I AM trying to clarify a very confusing and uncomfortable definition, and trying to keep an even keel and perspective on the way in which the Dream is developing.

Thanks for bearing with me throughout this discussion, and for taking the time to understand that.

Regards
Judith


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Koldar Mondrakken

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Re: ????

« Reply #7 on: 01 May 2002, 04:58:00 »

That is why we make a list. All these nasty, super-monsters that however have a naturals though very rare appearance in the Santharian ecosystem will be renamed then, names can be misleading because e.g. these beasts behave in a way common people would say they're demons though they're not.
Names can be changed, little problem there. Whole Filesystems can be traced to replace names...

To your concern about evil overwhelming the world. It is an important part of the Carpadosia that Coor was created without Ava knowing it twisting the Dream.
However I've thought for quite some time now about some kind of Cherubin or good spirits (good fairies, whatever) and here's my suggestion.
Some kind of angellike/demigod like creature similar to demon sounds in a way logic as there were many spirits Avá created, the twelve most important grew into the Gods of Santharia (so the myth tells) but there were even more and those became the Darkwinds. I see little change in the story when also a good number of lesser spirits serve the gods and Avá's dream in a positive way being something similar to angel, bringing messages to the people, defending their homes and so on.
I know it might sound Christian but in fact at least in any western religion and also in others there are some kinds of messengers that stand between the Gods themselves and the mortal.

What I'd think important to make the mythical beasts that serve the Gods (Unicorn, Gryph,...) also being such kinds, the purest known incarnation of their Gods on Sorren.

Sounds good/okay/acceptable/no good at all?

PS: Put Mephugor to demons as well as their creation is not only unnatural and mechanic but more a spiritual thing which more likely involves demon-kind things...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Tarquet Galbar

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Re: ????

« Reply #8 on: 01 May 2002, 09:38:00 »

There's also the fact that not all demons are evil. Yes yes, I'm sure everyone thinks as 'demon' to be synonymous with 'superevil creature' but sometimes that just isn't the case.

My example for this is the Tam-Rek. It's not evil, it's a protector of the Auturian woods to keep it from harm. It exists only on Sorren, and doesn't really have any supernatural powers, but people have labeled it a demon because a.) it kills people, people who try to invade the forest, and b.) it's friggin big and scary lookin.

Then there's "Why are they called demons then??" Well, my answer to that would be "People are suspicious." An example, aside from the Tam-Rek again, would be the Venazla.

They're weird little creatures who burrow through the sand and eat people. So, of course, they were immediately branded as a demon. Of course, they do turn into sand once their skin is punctured, making it strangely supernatural. Still, they have no cosmological place.

I like Koldar's plan fo dividing them into the demons who appear only on Sorren, aren't summoned, and aren't cosmological or necessarily evil, even if they are supernatural, and demons from the Netherworld, who can be summoned, have some kind of cosmological signifigance, and are probably evil.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Bard Judith

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Re: ????

« Reply #9 on: 01 May 2002, 12:34:00 »

"good number of lesser spirits serve the gods and Avá's dream in a positive way being something similar to angel, bringing messages to the people, defending their homes and so on"

Koldar: Good idea. All for it.

"I know it might sound Christian but in fact at least in any western religion and also in others there are some kinds of messengers that stand between the Gods themselves and the mortal"

I AM Christian. Have no objection to the belief system,

but we shouldn't use the titles and names, as said before. How about 'devas' or 'asparas' or something similar? They actually serve as such messengers and are decorative too.

"What I'd think important to make the mythical beasts that serve the Gods (Unicorn, Gryph,...) also being such kinds, the purest known incarnation of their Gods on Sorren."

Absolutely! Animal incarnations are an ancient concept...and very useful. A few more myths like the white Aj'nuvic would be good in that context, too.

"Sounds good/okay/acceptable/no good at all? "

Sounds good. Will give more ideas when time (have to run to class!)

.


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Artimidor Federkiel

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Re: ????

« Reply #10 on: 03 May 2002, 09:41:00 »

Hmm... I've read this thread now and would like to comment the following: There are 3 different kinds of demons as far as I can judge, so I try to summarize:

a) Demons of cosmological importance
These are unique demons, who only exist once and have a comological importance as equivalent to angels. They have unique names and usually are mentioned in myths. They can be evil messengers, executing forces of Coór etc. The Christian religion has one such demon, the fallen angel, which is "Satan/Lucifer". Xarl has already started one such demon for Santharia, this is Khalkaroth (still very fragementary) - this demon is currently named "High Demon", which is not very imaginative. Probably the name is irritating and we should use a unique name ("Demonlords", something in Styrásh?) to identify these minions of Coór.

b) Summoned demons
Entities from other planes, intelligent or not - this depends on the type of demon. Such demons only exist because they are tortured spirits, lost souls, born of all-consuming desire, whatever. What is important is that they aren't of this world, but of the Netherworlds and need to be summoned. Because they are ripped away from their world they mostly are extremely evil and need to be "tamed" by all magical means possible, as they simply don't like it far away from their dark domain. A typical summoned demon would be a Chasm Demon. But - as Tarquet says - they don't have to be evil per definitionem.

c) Beasts interpreted as "demons"
People just call certain beasts demons, though they in fact aren't demons, but because these demons act that way they simply call them "demons". This could be any kind of beast which behaves pretty evil. People e.g. would also call a certain kind of orc a demon in case they slaughter men in extremely brutal ways. An example for such a demon would be a Tam-Rek.

So I guess we agree in most points here. While we should call b) "demons" we still lack names for a) and c). Hmmm... We don't really have to name c), we simlpy can mention in the entries that they are interpreted as "monsters of demon-kind".

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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 5/2/02 9:42:05 pm


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Koldar Mondrakken

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Re: ????

« Reply #11 on: 03 May 2002, 10:56:00 »

Would the High demons not be more wicked counterparts of the gods 'cause of their uniqueness and power?

This would include that there are only unique angels as well. I'm not sure, was more thinking about them being some kind of powerful fairy folk. That they don't get over too angellike...

I was aiming for "Lord/Clouds of darkness" though these terms all don't exist "Moh" means "dark but there's no noun, yet. Mohherin-all/Kaimoherin. *confused* Well, flip it around the way you wish. That's above my scope. :lol

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Tarquet Galbar

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Re: ????

« Reply #12 on: 03 May 2002, 16:01:00 »

C.) could just be put under the catergory of wild spirit or nature spirit or something, even if they do have physical form. Most of the ones I've made have a connection to certain elements or terrains (Venazla, desert; Tam-Rek Auturian Woods; Gamosh-Ra, Thunderstorms).

Tarquet Galbar,
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Demons <-> Monsters