Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => The Santharian Library => Topic started by: Falethas Whisperwind on 12 December 2006, 06:17:06



Title: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 12 December 2006, 06:17:06
:EDIT:  Changes are indicated in yellow.

I thought I'd present a small entry for the Library, which, if added to the Compendium, would be my first entry for the Site...  :grin:

So anyways, I was thinking to myself today that there is far too little poetry in Styrásh in the Compendium and decided I would try my hand at creating some and see how well it was accpeted, so here goes. 

It's a short poem - a haiku, when translated into English, but more of a free verse in its Styrásh form - about the fall of night (well, obviously... haha) entitled, quite appropriately, Sá Chuhán Corís.  I provide here the poem with a line-by-line literal translation following, and then finally the meaning of the poem at the end.

Sá Chuhán Corís

Cortát quaelarthím naís sá injčrá
Quél sá aér'aí'chanthé maachí.
Avenniát sá silarná.

The Fall of-Night

Turns she glow of-hers the sun
Away from-world sleeping.
Awakens she the moon.

The Fall of Night

The Sun turns her face
Away from the sleeping world.
The Moon awakens.

So.... what do you all think?  :)


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Mirmec Rethindor on 12 December 2006, 06:28:19
Thats very creative, i of course have no background in Styrash to evaluate it, though a normal haiku is 5-7-5, so i'm not sure what pattern you are doing?

Still maybe the haiku in Styrash language is 9-8-9 perhaps? so maybe you develop the art form then you develop the art? That way you get a double entry credit.

Still very creative, hope you finish it.


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 12 December 2006, 07:12:15
Added the rest of the post a little sooner than I expected to... comment away, ye merry bards! :grin:


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Bard Judith on 13 December 2006, 14:29:05
Lovely!

Truly, a lovely, lilting piece, with elven melody AND motif.

One can't take apart a haiku syllable by syllable any more than one can dissect a butterfly; it either flies, or it doesn't... and yes, this one floats lightly as a Ceruwing on a Tareptail gone to seed.


One quibble/clarification which is probably just my error:

I'd pronounce 'quaelarthím' as KHWAY-lar-theme  or  even KHWAY-lair-theme - rhyming with "Way far stream" or "Slay their scheme" :P

You seem to have it as  kwye-lahr-THEEM...   apart from the accent on the last syllable, are you also sounding the first syllable as  KWHY (or  KHUH'WHY), rhyming with 'my', 'sigh', 'thai' and 'bye'?

  (I wish more people, including myself, actually knew the universal phonetic alphabet.  I can't even get a circumflex or acute mark out of my computer, far less all those funky symbols.... but I can see how useful they would be in situations like this!)


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 13 December 2006, 20:32:17
Thank you for your comments, Bard!  :grin:

And, in answer to your question, I do hear it rhyming with 'my' and 'why.'  I think that's more of me coming straight to Styrásh from Sindarin, as Tolkien always had 'ae' make the 'eye' sound.
And concerning the stress upon the last syllable: I remember that we've been told that the accent represents stress in some way, and, if that isn't the case and my memory lies to me, my support for the stress assignment would be that the Elven Principles page states that stress usually falls upon the last syllable of Styrásh words.

Again, thank you for commenting!  :D


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 14 December 2006, 00:49:37
Just as a fun fact, Tolkien was not the first to have ae make an eye sound.  Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that Tolkien's elven language had many direct influences from latin(this apparently being one of them)  In latin, ae, or the plural feminie ending the nominative, and the singular genative, makes the eye sound as well.


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 15 December 2006, 05:57:32
I am aware that Tolkien wasn't the first to make 'ae' have an 'eye' sound; it occurs in many natural languages besides Latin as well (most noticeably, in Spanish).  It's just that I have studied Sindarin for far longer than I have studied Latin and so therefore cited it.
I wouldn't necessarily say that Tolkien's Elven languages were directly influenced by Latin, as I am pretty sure that Latin didn't have lenition patterns and plurality mutations.  He did, however, often refer to his High Elven language as 'Elf-Latin', so maybe that's where you heard it?
Anyways, let's focus back on the poem, guys.  Any suggestions?


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Mina on 15 December 2006, 06:38:11
Don't forget about this (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=10711.msg126885#msg126885).  "ae" is something like /ɛ/ or /ć/, not /ae/ or /ai/.  "h" could be [ h ] or [ x ], depending on its position.  When beginning a syllable, I think it's most likely [ h ].  I'm not sure whether "ch" is always /x/, but Arti hasn't said otherwise, so let's go with that. 

So, phonetically, what you wrote should look something like this:
/'sa xu.'han ko.'ris/

/kor.'tat 'na kwɛ.lar.'θim na.'is 'sa in.ʒř.'ra/
/'kwel a.'er.a.'i.xan.'θe ma:.'xi/
/a.ven.ni.'at 'na 'sa si.lar.'na/

I'm not sure Arti meant for aér'aí'chán to have so many syllables.  I suspect he meant it to be /ćr.ai.xan/ or something like that, and only much later creating the orthography rules.  Then again, I don't think I asked him whether "aé" i supposed to be a stressed /ć/ or /a.'e/. 

Also, I'm not quite sure why you call it a haiku.  It doesn't look particularly like one to me.  Other than that, I don't really have any comments about the poem.  I know nuts about poetry.   :(


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 15 December 2006, 09:08:38
I merely posted the words as they sounded in my head the moment that I wrote them.  I haven't yet hammered the confirmed values into my head, so that's what came out.  As a matter of fact, I think that I'll go ahead and delete the whole pronunciation part of the post, as it seems to be attracting more attention than the actual poem itself.

Also, I didn't call it a haiku.  I wrote the poem in English and it worked out to be a haiku, and then I translated it into Styrásh.  In its elven form, it's more of a free verse.


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 December 2006, 05:54:42
Ok, let's see if the Styrásh is correct... I would translate the English text as follows:

Sá Chuhán Corís

Cortát quaelarthím naís sá injčrá
Quél sá aér'aí'chanthé maachí.
Avenniát sá silarná.

Title:
Fine.

Line1:
"ná" not necessary, the subject is "the sun", and that is translated.

Line2:
"sá" would be added in here correctly.

Line 3:
"ná" isn't the necessary. You only need to translate "the moon" and "rises".

So the text seems to be translated quite nicely with some article problems, but in general nice job as you got all the correct cases, including the ablative and you even constructed a nice walkaround when dealing with the "face", which wasn't in the vocabulary.

I can't say much about haiku-ness of the poem, as I'm not that familiar what defines a haiku etc. Anyway, we could make it a wise elvish saying, of which they could have many, and in which eternal wisdom is buried. These sayings could have special names, so if you're feeling inventive, Ysuran, you could try looking through the dictionary and find a nice word for that. For humans such a saying perhaps could look just like stating a mere boring fact, but an elf could see the universe breathe though it, don't you think?


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 21 December 2006, 09:54:15
Thanks for the grammar check, Art!  :hug:

About the articles, I saw them in the grammar page as appearing after the conjugated form of the verb, and assumed that they were supposed to be there to indicate the gender of the verb's subject. Now I know, though!  ;)  Does that mean that my sig would translate as selianté sóh avashín rather than selianté noí sóh avashín, since ''winds'' is translated?

Also, I'm not quite sure that I followed the second half of your post; it was a little vague.  What, exactly, were you wanting me to coin a word for?


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Bard Judith on 22 December 2006, 11:39:17
A word for 'wise elvish saying' - or, if you prefer, I guess, 'philosophical elven poem based on nature'... :)


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 29 December 2006, 01:37:38
Innocent bump...  :grin:


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 30 December 2006, 07:04:34
Alrighty then... I don't know that there's anything else this poem needs, really, so I'll edit the top post with a little backstory and wait for some approval, hopefully!  :grin:


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Bard Judith on 30 December 2006, 11:27:49
If the Styrash is right, and since Art has checked it I'll assume so :), I don't see why this can't be given the integration mark.  It would be nice to have a bit of a IC backstory (such as:  "This lyrical small poem is a 'steléyr' (metrical form used by the Ahrlrenhim elves to record their musings about nature), collected and translated by Ysuran Auondril for the Compendium..."   or whatever....) to go with it - such a backstory would allow you to add more similar poems as time goes on and you are inspired - or other people want to try their hand at 'steléyri'!





Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 30 December 2006, 16:17:42
Well, the main problem I have is where to put a Styrásh two-liner effectively, you know. Add it to what kind of poem page, or make a new one with what kind of title etc.


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 31 December 2006, 01:36:58
Hmm...

Well, I am endeavoring to make an entry for the Library called ''The Poetry of the Elves'', so what we could do is hold off on the integration of this little poem until I get around to that main page.  I envisioned it as being sort of like the Weapons Overview page, where there would be a list of the different forms of Elven poetry with a little blurb underneath each heading.  Once that page is up, then the heading for whatever form of poetry this little haiku-ish verse will end up being can be a link to a separate page, where all poems of that type will be collected.

Did that make any sense, or was I just blabbing incoherently?


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Bard Judith on 04 January 2007, 15:30:10
No, that was quite coherent!  You aren't talking about reorganizing menus, just setting up a linked page, correct?

  I do hope you'll let others 'play' in your forms - I think Rayne, for one, wrote in styrash, though I'm not as daring.  I did do an entire story AND a song in ThergerimTaal, but it was quite labour intensive and I can 'cheat' by making up words I don't have yet (guilty look). 

   I'm encouraged by the thought that haiku can be written in other languages than Japanese, by simply following the scansion and content rules - thus perhaps you'll accept 'steléyri' in Tharian, written by humans who admire the elven form?

 (flashes emeraud eyes at Ysuran with a merry smile)


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 22 January 2007, 23:24:54
Just a thought, now that I'm catching up on my reading (looks guilty)

If it's a "wise elvish saying" shouldn't it go under Proverbs and Sayings?

BTW, a beautiful piece of work, Ysuran, congratulations!  I'm not brave enough to write in elvish either, though I do have several "translated" poems and songs published.  If you do accept steleyri in Tharian, maybe I could submit some for consideration...

Alysse


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 January 2007, 23:46:13
Why can't this go  under "poems of nature"  below or above my haikus, then it is not so alone. Just because it is a very short form it should not have to sit and wait for uploading. It has two stanzas with the translation.

Ysuran, just do another two, or/and write a a few short sentences who wrote it!!


Title: Re: The Fall of Night - Sá Chuhán Corís
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 03 February 2007, 08:01:04
Shamelessly bumps his little idyllic musing...

Just ensuring that I remember to add my notes to this later in in the month.

So far, I have a back history on this little reverie and four companion poems to go with it, so that we can set a decent basis for this form of elven poetry.  I have devised five types of Styreian wordplay so far, and will probably post these as a different entry altogether.

However, I will be limited in my time this coming month, so things will probably go very slowly on my end.  Not to worry, though - I vow that the poor muse-less elves shall revel in their poetry before two month's time is up.  :)