Santharian Development

Organization and General Discussions => Active Projects => Topic started by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 December 2006, 04:47:58



Title: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 December 2006, 04:47:58
I've already put this on the Forum anncouncement page, but in case you've missed that, I'd like to repeat it here:

Well, you might have asked yourself this question already several times before: What precisely are Santharian sans worth? We'll try now to get to the bottom of this and start a new group project, with the intention to determine this issue and get the results finally on the site. Operation "Two Sans Worth" is the first team project of its kind, of which we plan more in case we can successfully conclude this one. The idea behind team projects is that we try to focus on one specific issue while we put other major issues on the backburner - until this specific issue is resolved. We collate information for such a project, clarify important details by discussing the problems, make decisions and eventually prepare stuff for the site - be part of it! Operation "Two Sans Worth" starts right here!

As you can see, this is a first experimental team project, where we need to come to a conclusion on the issue how much Santharian money is really worth. We've already started a discussion about that, and now we'll see to make something concrete out of it.

Part of what we need to do here is gathering information from various sides and prepare a realistic synopsis and finally a proposal on how much a san is really worth in relation to goods and Earthen currency. Some people could put together lists which prices we'd need (define categories, specific objects), then someone needs to think about where to put it all on the site and how precisely that should be achieved etc. - So lots of work to do, let's get started!


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Faugar on 20 December 2006, 05:12:49
A group project sounds great! Like the history development we did this summer, I think it's an excellent idea!  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: so orril miesefer on 20 December 2006, 06:51:39
leave stones for me please, I'll make a list of them and prices based on the actual currency.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Bard Judith on 20 December 2006, 08:56:19
I'll expand on - how should I call it - the 'market' items list?

Hey, we need a list of lists... sort of a sign-up sheet.  Is it possible to do that in a new post?  How are we going to keep this all organized?  Art, I've got a suggestion for you! :idea

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Make a NEW FORUM - and call it the TEAM PROJECT FORUM.   Put the following sticky topics at the top:

-Team Project I: Operation Two Sans Worth - include this thread as an introduction
- Master Items List - using my list as a starting point (after I sort it into groups rather than simply alphabetically)
- Sign-up Roster - like the Mentor/Apprentice list, where you make the initial post and edit it as people sign up in posts below (Judy - market items  Orril - stones and minerals  Artemis - horses.... etc. etc.)
- Resources and References - links or quoted texts specifically for use in developing the project, such as the Fief material, or illustrations/charts from elsewhere on the Web

Let regular posts, questions, ideas, proposals, and individual submissions all accumulate as their own threads beneath those stickies, just as in a regular forum.  I can go through the individual sections and collate them into the Master List when it's done. 

AND... here's a bit of a drastic suggestion, but see what you think... make it like the Bellringing Forum and give everyone in the Team Project Two Sans Worth mod rights, so that we can do the collation as necessary.  I think it would demonstrate the kind of trust and responsibility necessary to work together (everyone should back up their own submissions, if not their own posts, on their own computers for safety's sake as a rule anyhow).


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: so orril miesefer on 20 December 2006, 09:04:45
I like Judith idea, otherwise this would provably end made a mess...


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 20 December 2006, 09:35:18
well I guess I'll end up being the only one opposed.  While this is great and idealistic in all, there is NO way its ever gonna function smoothly, especially the sign up for XWZ list.  Multiple people wanna do the same thing.  To use an example, Mina, Orril, Twen and I all want to do Elven magic.  Now what happens if someone less qualified, such as me or Orril, signs up first?  Well then qualified Mina can't do anything about it without insulting either me or orril.  Human nature prevents something like that from happening, as seen in the flaws of communism and stuff.  People are greedy and...well...for the lack of a better word..assholes when it comes to things they want and competition.  Now I am sure an idealistic person will st ate "Drasil, we are at the Santharian Dream, we all treat each other with respect and never quarrel."  One word...WRONG!  Santharia functions like a normal society.  As much as we hate to admit it and pretend to be pleasant on the outside, there is still hatred, gossip and competition.  People like thier own ideas, and interest will definatly overlap.  So, basically, in regard to part three, unlike Orril states, it will make more of a mess.

As for Resources and References...we already have a COMPLETE forum dedicated to it.  Making it in two places isn't going to increase activity noticeably.

I'm sorry if this insults Judith, but honestly, I don't think the system will work at all.  It seems like an excuse to quarrel and just creates more clutter.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Bard Judith on 20 December 2006, 12:18:31
I'm not insulted, Drasil, because it's obvious you haven't understood my suggestion at all.

I'm not proposing reorganizing the entire board.   We already have the entire board very nicely designed around helping individuals find the information, editing assistance, and templates that they need to write their individually-designed entries....   I'm proposing to add one more forum to the board which would be reserved for TEAM projects - and specifically for the 'Two San's Worth' project.

This proposed forum would be a way of organizing whatever specific project comes along, to provide focus and a way of keeping track - an efficiency tool, nothing more.  (For those older members who recall the era of 'Sorren', similar to the Game Development Forum that was active for a while...) 

The Sign-Up List is NOT a general replacement for the Bellringing thread OR the Development Schedules thread; it is a little list which allows people to reserve the different AREAS OF THE ECONOMY upon which they would like to work for the "Two Sans Worth" project only.   "Elven Magic", as far as I know, is not a commodity bought and sold in the markets, so it does not enter into this discussion at all.

Thus:     "Judy - Foodstuffs" in the Sign-Up List means "Bard Judith will take responsibility for researching and making a list of foodstuffs commonly available in the New Santhala marketplace - begin assigning some reasonable values to them - and will post that list to a thread called 'ECONOMY - Foodstuffs'. "

Comments and critiques would then be posted in that thread as to any other submission/concept and would be added and incorporated into the first post as they come in. 

Let's say that Mira posts:  "Hey, Judith - don't forget dry goods such as Riz and Golden Rain.... and can you take out all the livestock, because that should be a separate list..." and then Marvin posts following "Yeah, I'd like to work on pricing the livestock, please..."

I'd would edit my list to reflect that and answer Marvin:  "NP, it's done - please go ahead and reserve "Livestock" in the Signup Thread, Marvin!"   

Marvin would post:  "I'd like to do Livestock" as requested, and then go over the Compendium looking for animals that would be likely to be bought and sold, and attempt to come up with realistic valuations of them, going by their respective rarity, ease of transport, length of breeding time, and usage.  He would post his initial list as a thread entitled "ECONOMY - Livestock" and accept comments and critiques from everyone else.

The Resources THREAD (not a forum) which I proposed should actually be called "SANTHARIAN ECONOMY - Resources" and contain ONLY specific links or quotations that would assist us in designing the economic structures for the Santharian Kingdom.  It should not duplicate the general resources already in the existing Resources Forum.

Eventually, when all the various areas of the economy have been covered, and we've all had a chance to look at each others' work, revise and comment and generally pat ourselves on the back for the great job we've done, all the FIRST POSTS of all the Economy threads will be collated together into one Master List which will give us a general broad range of Santharian prices and economic balance.

Goodness knows, we don't need any further excuses to quarrel, so I hope that clarifies my proposal for you, or any other confused individuals.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Faugar on 20 December 2006, 15:56:54
eh.. ok, I know this sounds old by now, but why not use skype and have realtime group discussions where others can join in and hav their say? "Signing up", and "tasks lists" and dividing developers and such don't really improve team spirit in my opinion. I realize and understand there are people who rather WRITE then talk or draw, and I respect that, but I'm not one of them, so my preference would always be a direct group chat in such cases. Then whatever comes out of that discussion can be written down, and commented upon later on the forum by others. I simply dislike organizing creative happenings like Santharian development too much, but that's my anarchistic spirit ;)

Of course, Judy's idea of the project forum is the perfect supplement for my suggestion above, as it'd be the place to put your comments and develop the rough "skype brainstorming" ideas there.

And yes, I realize it would mean organizational issues (when to hold the chat and who can(not) attend) etc, but once it's agreed on, such session will produce results much faster then a forum conversation. Also, people are more likely to name ideas when talking, then when writing, and more (crazy?) ideas tend to help others to think of new creative solutions/ideas. Once you start writing, you throw out the crazy stuff, and leave one or two ideas you think are best, thus loosing precious interesting material in the process I think.



Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Wanderer on 20 December 2006, 17:28:18
Now that sounds like a great idea. Although you should try to make multiple rooms and have a room master to prevent chaos when everyone starts talking at the same time :)


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Niccoli on 20 December 2006, 21:00:22
Wanderer, if you use the Java client on the IRC you can engage in person to person w/o other people conversations. It's easier that way.

Brillient idea, though i'd love to try to take care of some of the more... odball should it be said? Non-allcoholic beverages, snacks, random trinkets... that sort of thing. root beer!


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Wanderer on 20 December 2006, 21:04:04
i thought we were talking teamspeak / skype and other voice chat, since Faugar was talking about "Also, people are more likely to name ideas when talking, then when writing" :)
And i have my own IRC client, no need for the Java version.

cheers :)

 


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Niccoli on 20 December 2006, 21:13:47
just pointing it out. Teamspeak is great, but it's a question of "how many people speak X language in an understandible manner" and how many people actually have a microphone...


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 20 December 2006, 23:40:42
Languages shouldn't be the problem for me, but *has no micophone*


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 20 December 2006, 23:48:22
No, that isn't a problem either, for every old dell has a microphon and it works, though maybe not as well as with a headset. You might have to dive under your desk and put the cable in for skype, but that is all.

We use it quite frequently - and as i said, my husband has a really old dell notebook which will hopefully  die soon - and he chats quite often only using the internal microphon.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Niccoli on 21 December 2006, 02:20:29
mine's new, I don't have a mic (much to the chagrin of several persons I know) so i'd be stuck typing... :(


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 December 2006, 02:21:56
While, I'm not gonna lie and say I will contribute alot to this project, I don't think a teamspeak idea would be good.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Faugar on 21 December 2006, 04:22:59
a mic shouldn't be more expensive then 3-4 euro (mine costed that much), so I don't think it will be a problem?


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Bard Judith on 21 December 2006, 04:30:15
@ Faugar:  I've got a little mic/earphone combo and have been MEANING to get on skype for a while now.  Especially since I'm going overseas, I'd like to set up a connection for my mother and sister... so yeah, sometimes we just need a little push to get us going.  Thanks for 'pushing' the skype idea again.

@ Drasil:  This is a TEAM project.  If you don't want to be part of it, no one is going to ask you to be involved - especially if you have no particular interest in economics and pricing.  That as a given, is there really any need to keep making negative comments?     

@ Art:  is another forum section a workable idea just to keep everything together, even if it isn't structured exactly as I've suggested - or is it too much fuss to set up?

@ Everyone else who's interested - getcher bids in now to be part of this cool chance to set prices (and get a discount on your Shendarsilk, this week only, and we'll throw in a free tame kuatu if you buy now!)


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 21 December 2006, 04:57:39
A new forum is no problem Judy, you can have even childforums etc.

I won't participate here apart from telling you which resources the Shendar have and similar things.
But I think especially this subject is very good for such a project, no big concepts, just a lot of WORK to get all things together. I think a single person could not do it or would need a lot of time. And after the tenth  list the fun might be gone as well.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 December 2006, 04:58:15
I can imagine it working in an own Forum section called "Team Projects", but wouldn't make it that strict with a "signup list" as it probably came across, but perhaps wasn't really intended. We shouldn't put too many barriers between the developers and the project.

I can imagine it something like that:

Forum "Santharian Team Projects", two subforums, one called "Active Projects", the second "Completed Projects". The main Team Projects Forum would contain all threads dealing with the current project. Once that project is done, these threads would be moved to the "Completed Projects" and the "Active Projects" would be empty again. This way you always have those threads at hand, which are really of importance right now.

There could always be one (or more) project leader(s), who manage the project and hand out tasks for people to do, like collating info, writing a certain section of an entry etc. These project leaders could also be made Mods of that Forum for the time of the project, until the next project, where others manage things there. Unless you explicitly want to make everyone a Mod, but the Forum isn't really made for such a thing methinks (see Bellring Forum), here all members need to be manually made Mods, once a new one joins, this member needs to be added and can be easily forgotten etc. So it's not that practical to do that.

Sign up list: Ideally it shouldn't be much more than a compilation of what things the project leader has assigned certain people to do. Made sticky it then helps others to see who is working on what. No big procedure there necessary methinks, if the project leader has given his/her ok, he/she should add the person in, and that's it.

For each topic or part of the issue an own thread could be made, even the final entry itself could be posted in this Forum (and once ready be moved somewhere else).

Realtime discussions: Can't say that I'm a big fan of those. It is very difficult to get people at the same time from different time zones in front of the computer. Not everyone has a mic, there are certain technical difficulties -  and the efficiency with multiple communication partners is restricted. Personally I prefer the good old Forum, which has the advantage that you can think longer on what you want to put up, do your researches, and can read and post whenever you like or have time. But that's my personal preference, which I find much more convenient.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: so orril miesefer on 21 December 2006, 05:08:20
"Elven Magic", as far as I know, is not a commodity bought and sold in the markets, so it does not enter into this discussion at all.

:lol: Good one Judith, you made my day...

Now, I don't want a teamspeaking... because if I have poor English written, just think how bad my pronunciation is, aside, how would be awake at the 12 of clock with the speakers on while the entire family is sleeping... for me there's almost no way to do that, also I don't have a mic, and prices rise during this time...


Now, I'm doing my work right now, if there will be new forum, latter teamchat, or whatever, I prefer to have a basis before launching myself to the unknown, and I suggest, that whatever we are going to do is better to get started now, if not, its likely to die without ever happening.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Wanderer on 21 December 2006, 05:46:54
Okay, the realtime communication might pose some issues :) Maybe that could be done just by the people willing \ able.
An iRC / MSN session might be a better option, at least for people not too far away timezone-wise


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Bard Judith on 21 December 2006, 06:36:32
Art put it really well - 'a compilation'...    I certainly didn't mean my suggestions to sound as formal and regulated as it obviously came across - just looking for ways to simplify and tidy what might be a rather involved and sprawling project!



Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 December 2006, 07:10:10
Ok, I've made the Forum and subforums and moved 2 threads in here to give it a start. Judy at the moment has Mod rights.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Niccoli on 21 December 2006, 07:53:17
So, can i try managing, or listifying miscelanious?


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: so orril miesefer on 21 December 2006, 11:02:41
What do you mean with Miselaneous? I've already placed my hands on the minerals and ores in general.


Title: Re: Team Project I: Operation "Two Sans Worth"
Post by: Bard Judith on 21 December 2006, 13:10:18
Yes, Orril, I've asked Niccoli to specify ('specify Miscellaneous'! Does that sound like an oxymoron or what? ) :)

Perhaps he's thinking of hair clips, or liqueurs, or wicker baskets - I don't know!  If he wants to do it, he'll have to come up with at least some categories....