Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Places and Map Design => Topic started by: Philosophical freaky guy on 09 January 2007, 13:21:29



Title: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 09 January 2007, 13:21:29
This may look stupid at first, but it can be a well apreciated spot for game development.
 


     Okay, there is a island in the far east which is called vellond, ancient dwelling of the drow. you wouldn't see them at first, and most idiots turn away and leave.But they live under the well of portland inn, near the coast. If you ask around, people will tell you the tales of the underdark, located under the inn of the well. Dwelling within are ogres, and mad dwarves who long ago were adventurers, but lost their way. Also there are goblins, and the larger cousins of goblins, "hobgoblins". Everywhere you turn, there are evil orcs, mad wizards, the undead, vampires, liches, confused and violent faeries, ogre tribes, and, a tribe of humans who aren't what they seem, if you are fooled into the quest they give you, which is to find three magical keys hidden on each far corner of the dungeon, it will be too late once you learn that they are half leopard, halfm humans that were cast into prison for their many evil deeds.



     But if you stop there, you'll miss out on the quest to help the islanders by killing the drow queen, who rules the drow, hidden deep below the dungeon. It won't be easy to find the drow though, you will have to finish the leopards human's quest, protect yourself from them, and then combine the keys to open the single locked door to the REAL underdark, where the drow reside.



      Well, to describe the upper islanders, and their business, they are slave traders who specialize in pleasuring their costumers, with slave massages, and luxurious accomodations. But that's just the merchant class, the people of vellond live in a feudal system which is injust, and anyone who opposes the monarchy is instanly made a slave or beaten to death. But there are multiple kingdoms at war there, and here are the kingdom names:


     Urcadia, the main slave trade enterprise kingdom.
     Gonlindale, the warrior kingdom, known as ruthless conquerers.
     Evlindale, the elven kingdom which banished the drow to the underdark, they are the keepers of peace.
     And finally Mistland, the undead nemeses' of Gonlindor, who are shunned by all three other kingdoms, and are losing in war against Gonlindor.


    Of course, the main quest for characters in this land is too defeat the drow queen hidden deep in the underdark, but I think of equal importance is the quest to help the elves unite the once peaceful island of vellond, either by force, or by diplomacy, or maybe with both, it will be a hard task indeed.


     I will now descirbe the geography and weather of vellond. In Mistland, it is always bonechillingly cold, and it rains constantly, and there is constant volcanic action from the many craters in the kingdom, there is no natural plant life, so only carnivorious animals live there, everything is either black, warped, hideous, or just desolate and dead, this area used to be where the old cemetaries where, but people left when the dead started to rise, it is all very mysterious, i guess if you do the undead a favor, they may tell you their origins. It is located to the far east side of the island... Now to describe Urcadia, it is a strict, harsh, but happy looking place, full of splendour and gigantic castles and palaces, and right in the center is the capital, where the monarch rules over every living thing in the kingdom. The whole of the kingdom is located on the eastern coast of vellond, and it's practically impossible to attack the kingdom, because each castle is fortified with land, air, and sea defense, and the people took care to make everysingle castle nearly impregnable, not like they had a lack of resources, dealing in the slave trade and all... Evlindale is a very beautiful place, similar to lothlorien in J. R. R. tolkiens classic, the lord of the rings. It is the only uncorrupt place in the island, and the defenses wane more and more with time, they are constantly attacked by every other kingdom, and their time is running out, but somehow they manage to keep the peace as much as they can. But, to further describe thelandscape, everyone lives in trees, and the higher echelon elves live in trees that rival the redwoods in beauty, and in size. The climate is perfect, and the weather is very mild, due to all the powerful elven mages working for the good of the people, elves have sensitive skin, after all... And finally i'll describe gonlindale, the land of warriors. All races are welcome, but you have to fight to earn your keep, and the natives are kept strictly in shape, all constricted to farmwork, slavework, and fighting for the royal army. These people are mountain folk, and their fortresses are even more impregnable then the Urcadians, because every catsle is carved into the mountains, like helms deep. The reason behind this design is because the natives to the kingdom are a mixture of dwarves and humans, although they do not crossbreed, even in extreme rarities, the people can't mate because they are unfertile together. But nevertheless, they lived peacefully together and coexisted due to their likeness in interest to war and conquering territory. Rarely, there are craters and volcanoes around the land, but an arrangement was made with the elves to make the volcanoes inactive so the dwarves could forge their handiwork in the fiery hot lava, which makes the kingdom very resourcefull  in smithing projects, which makes it such a good area for a warrior kingdom, the location of these lands is the midwest mountain range of the huge island.




     Well, what do you think, not too shabby? Or always a bridesmaid never a bride? I think it deserves a mention, but if it is not well tuned enough, tell me any changes i could make, because i think this world is awesome, and i always wanted to see the underdark portrayed in a post and text online d&d game, how about it?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Mina on 09 January 2007, 13:54:21
???

We're not designing a D&D campaign, you know...


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 09 January 2007, 13:57:51
lol, it's just a new continent for users to roleplay upon, i guess the administrators might be mad for me posting this, but i think it's quite detailed, i'm not really much of a newb at all to roleplay. I'm a diehard d&d fan.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Mina on 09 January 2007, 14:11:53
No new continents are allowed.  There are a few continents that haven't had much work done on them yet, but they're currently not open for development, and probably won't be for a few years, at least.  What you've written is also not particularly detailed.  Just take a look at what we've done for Southern Sarvonia.

Another thing to note is that we're not creating what we create for the purpose of roleplaying.  Sure, you could use it as a setting for a RPG, and we even have a roleplaying board, but this board is all about world-building, not designing RPG settings. 


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 09 January 2007, 14:39:21
Huh? That is worldcreating isn't it? I don't want to be an idiot who argues, but all I did was develop a world with indepth societies and landscapes, and a few possible tasks for gamers on the island.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 09 January 2007, 14:41:19
actually, i should be more specific on different things then?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Mina on 09 January 2007, 15:34:09
Well, I suppose you could define designing a RPG setting as a subset of world-building if you want to.  The purpose though, is very different from what we're doing here.  When you're creating a RPG setting, the important thing is that it'd be fun to roleplay in.  What we're doing here, essentially creating a world for the sake of creating a world, places much less importance on making the world a fun place to roleplay in.  The important thing to us is to make sure the world is realistic (ie. 'internally consistent', not 'resembling the real world').  This doesn't mean that it's not suitable for roleplaying in, but it does mean that roleplaying isn't directly supported. 


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 January 2007, 20:17:22
There are rules on what can be developed in Santharia - if you look around you should find them as well, lukecash. Also judging from your various posts you seem to think that the site focuses mainly on RPGs and that what we develop here is developed for role playing purposes only. This is not the case.

Santharian world development does not directly affect the RPG Board, nor the other way round. We provide the world however, in which tales can be written and role playing stories can be played. But it's up to the story writers and the RPG Board what it makes out of that material. For the Santharian development board it is essential that the world is developed in depth and as consistently as possible and not of primary concern that the role players have a nice environment to play in. The second is a natural result of good dev work done, though.

To put it more clearly: Our priorities lie in developing in depth on what exists on the site, not to build completely new areas with new races and stuff that is not related to the rest of the world at all.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Niccoli on 09 January 2007, 20:55:04
Just a comment, the entire underdark thing is taken from dungeons and dragons.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 10 January 2007, 00:43:33
lol, i know, the underdark is a classic scenario.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Niccoli on 10 January 2007, 05:09:49
That's why it isn't here. The underdark is from D&D, so are the D&D drow and i'm not sure but i think vellond is as well. This is SANTHARIA. not a cheepripoffofd&dsite okay?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 10 January 2007, 05:49:11
Niccoli, your coming of a bit harsh, but you are 100% right.
This site isnt just excitment adventure and cheap melodrama that so often plauges DnD campaigns. This is a living breathing world. This world makes sense, and DnD (read Dungeon Masters Handbook II, by the picture of the noble looking over the countryside, towards the begning) is not.
This world is so much more then DnD, and you need to see that. A lot of your posts have proffesed your unfortunate ignorance on this topic. But ignorance isnt such a bad thing. Its better then stubborness. Ignorance can be corrected.
Read through some entries, ecspecially places and look at the established templates.
Im not trying to come off as super-strict play by OUR rules, because thats not what Santharias about. Its fill-in-the-blanks, and its those blanks that will let your creativity shine.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 10 January 2007, 11:00:14
lol, now you make me look stupid, but i was just sparked by that idea, so i posted it. It's not really TOO much about roleplaying though, i WAS wondering if you guys included the drow in your npc collection in santharia.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 10 January 2007, 11:02:06
............  :angry:


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 10 January 2007, 13:11:50
 :huh: :grin: :P :evil:


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 10 January 2007, 13:14:57
Why do you hate me so much dude? Cant we just agree upon the fact that we see fantasy worlds in a different way? I don't base EVERYTHING upon roleplay and you don't even have to LOOK at the stuff i post if you think it's stupid. Although i AM sorry that i offend, well i guess i just plain get you pissed off.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 10 January 2007, 19:02:48
'Drow' is copyright protected if I'm not mistaking.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 January 2007, 20:29:09
There are some mentionings of the word "drow" however on the site still from a long time ago as for example Viresse used that term in her novel - these still need to substituted with another term. Santharian dark elves are not drows, and if the term is copyright protected as well, the more it has to go.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Bard Judith on 11 January 2007, 03:52:23
Actually, I've been looking into that, Art, to see if it needs to be replaced.

I can find no copyright reference for 'drow' specifically to Wizards of the Coast or TSR.

According to one source, "the word "drow" wasn't made up by gamers; it's an alternate English spelling for "trow," the Shetlander word for the Scandanavian troll/dwarf/dark elf (generally called dvergar or svartalfar in the Norse)."

Monstropedia (which see!) says in more detail: "British Isles folklore:

In the Orkney Islands, the Trow or the black elves are similar to the Svartalfar or to Scandinavian trolls or dwarves, and inhabit mines and caves. They may be either good or evil, but the evil variety are more common.

The Drow or the dark elves are the Shetland Islands equivalent of the Trow, but unlike the trow, they are thought of as exclusively evil. They are tiny elves known for their mining and metal-working, not unlike dwarves. A useful way to envision them may be as evil, subterranean counterparts to tiny shoemaker elves.

In Irish mythology, a drow is a stone monster of the Fomori, similar to the Troll in Scandinavian folklore. "

However...

"The drow, as they appear in fantasy fiction and games, were created by Gary Gygax, and appeared in the 1979 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons module, Hall of the Fire Giant King. They were first mentioned in the Dungeons & Dragons game in the 1st Edition 1977 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual under "Elf."

"While the drow were designed by Gary Gygax for the Dungeons & Dragons world of Oerth, they may be found in many other published and gamemaster-created campaign settings. The creation of the fictional drow was likely influenced by the drow of Scottish myth, "a tiny elf which lived in caves and forged magick metal work." (Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (1970)). Drow are also likley influenced by the fictional dero of Amazing Stories (1940s), an evil 'degenerate' subterrannean race who also enslaved humans..."



In other words, the black-skinned, lavender-eyed, spider-worshipping, cavern-dwelling type of drow are a Gygax invention, and since this site is a Tolkien tribute, NOT a Gygax tribute (shudder), any reference to such should be avoided.  However, the word 'drow' itself is of sufficiently ancient and authentic etymology to be used as a synonym for our 'dark' elves without any difficulty.  I would have to go back and reread Viresse's account to determine if any D&D influences are discernable or potentially objectionable.

The submission above, however, is definitely unacceptable given our strict mandate that concepts be original to Santharia (with the exception of a few 'Tolkien-tribute' entries, which I could list without taking off my socks to count past ten) and copyright-free. 

Hope that helps,
Regards from the masterbard


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 January 2007, 04:13:26
Well, it wouldn't hurt though if we find a unique word for our dark elves in the long run methinks - despite that the term doesn't seem to be copyright protected property. Then there wouldn't be any mix ups, people taking them for a 1:1 copy of D&D guys if they read the word etc. So in order to define their Santharian character we could as well give them a Santharian name, eh?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 11 January 2007, 04:33:39
How about the Styoertians?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 11 January 2007, 05:34:07
Luke, I dont hate you. And we might not even have different views on the ideal fantasy world. But We do need to come to a comprimise on something- what Art's world is/should be like. Im not making the rules, Im just trying to help enforce them


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Rakshiri on 12 January 2007, 06:08:14
Well, it wouldn't hurt though if we find a unique word for our dark elves in the long run methinks - despite that the term doesn't seem to be copyright protected property. Then there wouldn't be any mix ups, people taking them for a 1:1 copy of D&D guys if they read the word etc. So in order to define their Santharian character we could as well give them a Santharian name, eh?

Similar to the elder scrolls we could propagate our native terms more to be accepted as the standard term for this group:

Móhrhim (dark)
córachrhim (night)
Córrhím (night)
Cóorrhím (coór)
Melórhim (shadow)
glásáj (Sorrow)
móhilrhim (blackness)

opposed to this:
miésrhim (gem)
quaelárrhim
vashénrhim (graceful)
baiánrhim (gold)
eferrhim

(don't beat me because of bad grammar!)

Though one might consider looking for more metaphorical ways to describe their different philosophical alignment.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 12 January 2007, 08:58:11
Lol, i don't even know all those words, so I'm sorry if I don't beat for bad grammar on elf words i shouldn't even know that. If I were THAT smart, all the normal geeks like me would get jealous and kick me off the site, WHOOOOAAAAA, that's totally psychadelic man!!!!


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 12 January 2007, 10:05:17
We seem to have at least to 'drow' tribes at the moment:
The Coór'hém (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/elves/coorhem.htm)
The Móh'rhím  (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/elves/mohrhim.htm)

The latter is black-skinned and the counterpart of the Light Elves, but not necessarily drow, while the former is specifically named a Drow tribe, but is "...much like other Drow, [...] raven-haired and pale-skinned".

@Rakshiri: I like your suggestions, but as you can see some are already in use for their kind, especially as tribename. I'd go for something shorter, like dwarf, elf and hobbit, but possibly derived from Styrash. Would Drow be considered outcasts by other elven tribes, or inferior, or as a people went astray? Maybe they consider themselves far from that. You could think of names derived from (just went through dictionary associating):

pure raugií
night cóor (but then without the -rhim, though I dislike the association with Ava's counterpart.)
power ámn
moon silarná (perhaps too much associated with D&D moonelves?)
dawn (short for "time of arrival") áv'jeín 
 


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Bard Judith on 12 January 2007, 10:28:36
Then how about "Mohrim" as the Tharian for 'dark elf' or 'drow', derived from the Styrash 'Móhrhim'?

The first time it's used in an entry it could be glossed with its definition, as below:

"...much like other Mohrim, or Drow, they are raven-haired and pale-skinned.  These dark elves usually..."



Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 12 January 2007, 11:35:16
I used to have a good name for Dark Elves/a dark-skinned race.... something dermis.... Sabledermis? Ebondermis? Something more Santharian? Like Móhdermis? Córdermis? Something along those lines.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Rakshiri on 13 January 2007, 01:28:35
We seem to have at least to 'drow' tribes at the moment:
The Coór'hém (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/elves/coorhem.htm)
The Móh'rhím  (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/elves/mohrhim.htm)
...

pure raugií
night cóor (but then without the -rhim, though I dislike the association with Ava's counterpart.)
power ámn
moon silarná (perhaps too much associated with D&D moonelves?)
dawn (short for "time of arrival") áv'jeín 
 

I didn't check the tribe names jsut some brainstorming with the dictionary. I'd consider going for something less generic (darkelf=>mohrhim, which is essentially just a transfer) but imply something that in origin only elves distinguished between the two philosophies. So a lightelf could become a darkelf if he changes his belief system and vice versa (in theory)

Thus the general term might have the ending "styáey" (elf) as an individual rather than a tribe.

maybe      phár'már(blood),      eferán(burning),      seorál(builder),      ishím(deceitfulness), guorán(devour) valannía(dreamer),          gurán(disrupt),  ún'jeín(dusk, I use that term as informal term describing ancient darkelves on Nybelmar already though) would be associative words from which they derived a more general meaning.

or maybe Avatékaan/Cortékaan (Follower of Ava/Coor) or something similar.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Bard Judith on 13 January 2007, 02:03:56
OK, those are all great etymologies - complete with convincing philosophy -  but those words would all be the elven term for themselves, in styrash.

What I'm suggesting is the common Tharian term - 'Mohrim', a simple word to replace 'drow' (itself not a styrash or sindarim word) , equivalent to 'hobbit' for 'Hobytla' or 'Dwarf' for 'Thergerim'.   Does that make sense?

In which case we would have two new words to add to the vocabulary list.   Three, actually, since I need to make a ThergerimTaal word for 'darkelf' - probably something grudgingly respectful in connotation!  Dwarves don't have negative associations with darkness... :)


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 13 January 2007, 07:05:06
What about something not exactly the same, but essentially the same? I was thinking of the Mores or Moors, singular More or Moor (the reference to the Muslim inhabitation of the Iberian peninsula is of course not entirely accidental, and I think, if you would think this very broadly, it could be a nice touch to place our 'drow' not necessarily on the evil side, just as we shouldn't do so with our islamic brethren and sisters, but that's looking at it from a very broad perspective).

There could be loads of stuff done with this, for example a complete new dimension to the expression 'one More' in a bar, considered bad luck by any or all human tribes.

I think this term has the elegance and grace of a single syllable word, as opposite to earlier proposals, while still reminiscent of a Styrash root.

This is my suggestion for the Tharian variant. However, I think the way Rakshiri is thinking is indeed more appropiate for their own naming! I'd also like to hear Arti's opinion on your suggestions, as I think the root in the end has significant impact on the way our 'Drow' will be viewed by the public of readers and compendiumists alike.

Can't wait for the suggestion for ThergerimTaal. What about simply Donkers? ;-)


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Rakshiri on 13 January 2007, 08:58:41
What I'm suggesting is the common Tharian term - 'Mohrim', a simple word to replace 'drow' (itself not a styrash or sindarim word) , equivalent to 'hobbit' for 'Hobytla' or 'Dwarf' for 'Thergerim'.   Does that make sense?

Yes, it does but I'd think how the elves would distinguish each other and from this root other races (e.g. humans) would adopt their version. Mohrim means "Dark Tribe" (or somesuch), I'd look for a term for an individual or a group (not tribe) of individuals. Mohrim just feels a bit too obvious and it has been done already. We also have an actual tribe named that way as Gean pointed out. Or do we want a term solely for the Shadowelves? But they are so secluded that few would have a need to distinguish them and then their already existing term "Morhim" would be entirely sufficient.

Another thought would be that the darkelves call themselves the "Awakened" (avennián) or "Wake" as Coór is supposedly awake and in contrast to Avá who is the dreamress (valannía).

Another more lightelf oriented naming would be Éshstyrán for (false elf/nature), maybe given orcs are called éferaní (the burned one) they'd call them 'Éshaní' (the/a Wrong one)
Catchwords in that direction would sound short and up to the point.


but Arti indeed might know a bit better how he wants his Styrásh to be mutilated and what elves would think and call themselves.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 14 January 2007, 08:34:01
What if they were a violent, unsecluded species, much like the orcs, so that there would be a balance? There seems to be only one violent race that everyone hates, but couldn't there be some sort of dark alliance? It seems hardly realistic that only one small group of species is violent like that. And i understand that there is also gorbas, ogres, and goblins, but those are just very minor races that don't seem to come into the picture much, in war, they seem to only be support units. I'm thinking another main race on the evil side would make the fact that the evil races and their kind are worthy adversaries in war more realistic. How would they win against elves, humans, AND dwarves, brownies and halflings. Not to mention the fact that the dwarves and elves are powerful races to compete with in skirmishes or war, especially dwarves.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 January 2007, 05:08:01
Ok, back to the topic here:

- "Móhrhim": Well, we've indeed already used that term to denote the Shadow Elves, so there should be a general term for "dark elves", while the "rhim" of "Móhrhim" means a specific "tribe". So I personally would keep the Shadow Elves as the "Móhrhim".

- "Moor/More" - I'd like something like that very much for the human (more derogatively used) expression. The dark elves in the south (as derivates from the shadow elves) could be seen as elves who have a similar origin as the Shadow Elves, and they've been coming from the "moors" of Fá'áv'cál'âr. So they could be referred to as "Moores" or "Moorers" for example, which could have changed to "Moor" in coloquial talk, and the expression "One more is too much moor." would then be seen as an equivalent to "Too many cooks spoil the meal" (don't know if the English expression exists in that form, though). I think that sounds quite plausible.

- As for the Styrásh expression fo the dark elves: Here Rakshiri has the most valid point I think, because "The Awakened" (or something in that direction) is definitely the heart of what the dark elves are, or as what they interpret themselves. Wtih the Avennorians we however have something that sounds similar to "avennian" so maybe a combination could work like "av'valín" (short for "Wakers from the Dream", see also: male ending here due to cosmological reasons)? Not entirely happy with that construction... Maybe turning it around to "val'avín"?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Bard Judith on 17 January 2007, 10:32:25
Although I love the noun 'moor' referring to the lone windswept plains, I'm not so taken with it etymologically to refer to a dark-skinned race.  'Moor' and 'Moorish' were historically used to describe the Northern African Muslims of the Middle Ages.  Here's what Wikipedia has to say about them...

""Moor" comes from the Greek word mauros (plural mauroi), meaning "black" or "very dark", which in Latin became Mauro (plural Mauri). The Latin word for black was not mauro but niger, or fusco for “very dark”. In some but certainly not all, cases, Moors were described as fuscus. Due to the relevance of this population in the Iberian peninsula during the Middle Ages, this term may have entered English—and other European languages less exposed to this group—via its Spanish cognate moro. It is important to emphasize that the Greeks and Romans clearly saw black-skinned Africans as a separate group of people. This was highlighted in the Greek word Aithiops, meaning, literally, a dark-skinned person. The word was applied only to some Ethiopians and to certain other dark and black-skinned Africans. With a few poetical exceptions, it was not applied to Egyptians or to inhabitants of northwest Africa, such as Carthaginians, Numidians, or Moors. The understanding of Egyptians as distinct from their southern neighbors is also clear in the ancient iconographic and written evidence. The evidence also shows that the physical type of the Ethiopian inhabitants of the Nile Valley south of Egypt, not the Egyptians, most clearly resembled that of Africans and peoples of African descent described in the modern world as Negroes or blacks. [3]

The derivative Maures described the peoples of North Africa in the Maghreb (west of modern Tunisia). Moors were distinguished from what the Greeks labeled "Aethiopes", or Ethiopians.[citation needed] Herodotus in his “the Histories” described two types of northern Africans: the light skinned Garamentes of northern Libya and the dark-skinned, “Trogdolyte Ethiopians” in the southern Fezzan and northeast Africa. In Frank Snowden’s book “Before Color Prejudice” the Garamentes were sometimes spoken of as “white Ethiopians”: “Melanogaetuli (black Gaetuli) and Leukaethiopes (white Ethiopians). Some Garamentes did live in the modern Fezzan of northwestern Africa and were described by Lucan as nigri (black), furvi (swarthy) and other diverse adjectives. According to the 1st century AD Roman poet Manilius, Moors represented a wide spectrum of color schemes with: Ethiopians, the darkest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and the Mauri, the lightest.

According to the older versions of the Oxford English Dictionary, the Moors, during the Middle Ages and as late as the 17th century, were described as being black, dark skinned, or swarthy in complexion. Modern texts, such as Webster's New World Dictionary, groups all moors together under the terms Arab and Berber which has caused individuals to omit the association with Africans that are racially considered "black". Considering that Berbers were a mixture of various shades of diverse nomadic groups comprised of East Africans, North Africans, West Africans and Sub-Saharan Africans the claims of racial heritage being of one specific group are at best dubious. Historian Wayne Chandler stated, "Although the term Moor has been put to diverse use, its roots are still traceable. Circa 46BC the Roman army entered West Africa where they encountered Africans which they called "Maures" from the Greek adjective 'mauros,' meaning dark or black." Though the word "Moor" may seem to have been meant to indicate Blacks, it in time came to be applied to Muslims in general, especially the Berbers. During the European Renaissance explorers, writers and scholars began to apply the term Moor to Blacks in general. (Information courtesy of Blacks in Antiquity by Frank Snowden, Golden Age of the Moor ed. by Ivan van Sertima, Black Brittanica by Edward Scobie and National Geographic Magazine)"


In other words, we'd be borrowing a Terran word with a lot of existing connotations, 'black-skinned' and 'Muslim' among them, to refer to our elves.   I think it would provide as inaccurate a mental image as 'drow' does for many people (those who are only familiar with the Menzobarran spider-worshipping types from Salvatore...)

I have a difficult enough time fighting fantasy stereotyping with my dwarves (which is why I prefer to refer to them primarily as Thergerim) when I am forced to edit or comment upon yet another stubborn, beer-swilling, jargon-speaking short mass of beard and weaponry from the RPG forum!  It might not be wise to try to use a word so full of Terran history and attributions, especially if meant derogatively....

Just my two sans!

I love "val'avín" for the Styrash, certainly!  Wouldn't humans be most likely to simply corrupt the darkelves' own word for themselves?   "Valvin" or "Falvin" would be how the dull-eared Men would hear it... :)     It could then undergo a consonant shift to become a rude expression:  "The Fallen Vallen" or some such...


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 17 January 2007, 11:33:02
I have a difficult enough time fighting fantasy stereotyping with my dwarves (which is why I prefer to refer to them primarily as Thergerim) when I am forced to edit or comment upon yet another stubborn, beer-swilling, jargon-speaking short mass of beard and weaponry from the RPG forum!  It might not be wise to try to use a word so full of Terran history and attributions, especially if meant derogatively....

Just my two sans!

I love "val'avín" for the Styrash, certainly!  Wouldn't humans be most likely to simply corrupt the darkelves' own word for themselves?   "Valvin" or "Falvin" would be how the dull-eared Men would hear it... :)     It could then undergo a consonant shift to become a rude expression:  "The Fallen Vallen" or some such...

Isn't that all Dwarves are? *Hides from barrage of books, some quite hefty, others surprisingly light, yet still cabable of papercuts*
Idea for an epic poem- The Fall of (the?) Vall


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Mina on 17 January 2007, 14:31:38
Quote
I'm not so taken with it etymologically to refer to a dark-skinned race. 
Um, shadow elves are dark-skinned, but dark elves actually have very pale skin.  But I agree, "Moor" is probably not a very suitable name for dark elves. 

I'm thinking "móh'styáey" is probably the term elves (other than dark elves) use to refer to dark elves.  It literally means "dark elf".  I also agree that something along the line of "Awakened Ones" would a suitable term for dark elves to refer to themselves with.  Perhaps it could be derived from something like "Avenni'anhé" (not sure if I got one that right)?  I think though, that it's more likely the human term for dark elves (assuming they don't simply call them dark elves) derive from the elven term, not the dark elven term.  Dark elves have historically been enemies of humans, so I don't think they'd have picked up too many words from each other. 


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 17 January 2007, 17:57:24
Judy, I read exactly the same text :)

I can understand your feelings on 'Moores', I suppose you're right (though I wander how many people do know the term). Most importantly however, I think we're getting somewhere with the new elven suggestions and I also recommend taking a name derived from there.

I'm not into the origin of the races much, but Art, do you suggest your name invented by 'elves' or by 'dark elves', because I think Mina has point in what he says.

Should "val'avín" be the name, I consider stuff like Vallen/Vallens or Vall/Valles, Valin/Valins all proper derogatives for humans! Thanks for the input so far by the way, I think we're getting somewhere.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 19 January 2007, 05:15:35
Point taken on the "Moores" - the term might indeed have too strong associations with an Earthen term, especially if used derogatively as well. I guess there should be such a derogative term however for the humans to refer to these elves, as they wouldn't think high of them. Dark elves could be interpreted as spawns of evil, as the "black men (elves)", part of horror stories and such, you know. Horror stories with dark elves might be even more effective, as another race is even more mysterious as the simple "black man" to scare children with.

Any combination of "móh" and "stýr" however I find way too flat and obvious. The ("good") elves would have other interpretations of their brethren than stating that they are simply "elves, who are of dark colour (or spirit)". Something like the "Fallen" would be a possibility (the fall = chuhán, probably identical with the verb), possibility would be "chuhrín" for example. This word has something aggressive and breaking in its melody (I'd pronounce it like "tschuchrin" in German), so this could fit methinks.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 January 2007, 05:06:43
Speaking of which...why do we have so few "dark men"?  While we do have some "evil" tribes, they seem to fall more under the realm of being barbaric, chaotic or blood thirsty, rather than followers of the dark like elven drow.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 21 January 2007, 06:53:48
*Slaps Drasil* You shouldn't be using the word 'drow' anymore  :angry:


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 January 2007, 07:10:01
*sighs*  Whats the new word again Moh'something or other.  :P


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Bard Judith on 21 January 2007, 11:02:26
No arguing you two!  You are both wrong:  'drow' isn't copyright, so not forbidden, but on the other hand we don't have a replacement word yet.  That is what this thread is currently discussing... (looks sternly over her glasses at them)

"chuhrín" is Art's most recent suggestion, and I like it.   That could give rise to the human expression 'tchuri' - pronounced 'CHURR-ee'...or 'turin'  - 'TOUR-een' to replace the Tharian word 'drow...

I think 'turin' has a nice look and sound, but let's see what others have yet to contribute!


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 21 January 2007, 12:50:56
The problem there is that when I hear or see the word 'Turin', I cannot help but think of the Shroud of Turin, the shroud in which Jesus Christ was supposedly lain in death and into which his image is said to have been divinely burned.  I think that it may be a bit too Terran... perhaps something like 'Tor' or 'Torin' to introduce a slightly different pronunciation and look to make it more Caelerethian?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 21 January 2007, 17:25:19
I'm thinking that Torin would sound like the big bullish creatures off world of warcraft, and it doesn't sound very elvish.


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 21 January 2007, 23:13:20
Not to mention the ancient (yet quite funny) game of Torin's Passage..


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Bard Judith on 21 January 2007, 23:34:29
Hah!  I LOVED Torin's Passage!  But Ysuran is quite right and I didn't see the match as I was pronouncing it differently.


"Turrin"?  "Tourin"?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 21 January 2007, 23:59:49
'ou' is something we don't have alot I believe. Maybe change the starting letter? As the german start sounds a little like dj (as in djinn), what about:

Djurin? Djorin?
Churin/Chorin? (as in cha-cha-cha)


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Philosophical freaky guy on 22 January 2007, 03:24:08
Andrashkinvil, how about that?


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Mina on 22 January 2007, 03:45:19
"Chukrin" perhaps?  The second "h" in "Chuhrin" is pronounced like the "ch" in "loch", IIRC, and it's probably likely to become a "k" sound when spoken by those whose langauge doesn't have that sound.  On the other hand, a "sh" sound might be possible too, though I'm not as certain about that.  Tolkien did mention that his humans often pronounced that sound as a "sh" when speaking elvish though, I think.  It was something like that anyway. 

Or maybe we could even have the "ch" become "sh", producing something like "Shukrin".  I'm not sure how likely such a shift is, but it doesn't look too implausible to me. 

Edit: BTW, doesn't anyone think of Tolkien when Turin is mentioned?  :P


Title: Re: The island of vellond and the underdark(detailed to the extreme)
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 22 January 2007, 03:53:01
I like the Churee / Chukrin / Chuhrin ones best as they have harsh sounds to them.  Anything along those lines  *nods sententiously, giving support if no new ideas* ... :p