Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Cosmology, Myths and Religions => Topic started by: Takór Salenár on 18 August 2007, 05:43:02



Title: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 18 August 2007, 05:43:02
Below is the part about the gods from the main entry and the section about people. If you have any good ideas, how this religion should look like, how the gods should act, which relation they should have to their people or how they interact with themselves, please post them.



Religion/Beliefs. The Icemen worship the forces of nature. They think that the world is ruled by 15 gods, who actually have the form of the element they represent, and are in a constant fight with each other allying occasionally for the needs of their war. The supreme gods are Phoblit (the male day god) and Nechya (the female night goddess), Brender (thunder), Asterlin (lightning), Chelinor (snow), Weabor (wind), Reanor (rain), Peierojon (fire), Pargis (ice), Heterniz (water), Zundefor (the land animal spirit, in the form of the great white bear), Aleshnir (the sea animal spirit in the form of a white whale), Necteref (death), Asendin (sea) and Ertemmir (the earth). These gods - according to Icemen mythology- are the breed of Afrasnyr the hermaphrodite chaos god, who - being alone for eternity - decided to fight with his own self and, during the struggle, he split himself to the 15 gods living inside them. The Icemen believe that Zundefor and Aleshnir mated with the other gods and with each other giving birth to mortal life. The humans according to their beliefs are the children of Phoblit and Nechya mating one time before they begin their eternal warfare.

The Icemen do not build temples or practice ceremonies for the major gods other than appeal rituals, when they seem menacing (during a storm for example). The Icemen carve totem poles in ice representing the animal that symbolises their individual tribe and is tattooed upon them. This way the totems establish a connection between them and the land itself. Their yearly renewal during the summer defines not only the change in seasons, but also the change in everyday life. Return to the top

A holiday:

 The Langral Meeting. The Icemen Lanruls once in 12 Parginlnags meet in Langral, a sacred place between Aelhrong and Eanin in order to beg the gods for their benevolence and discuss matters of common interest. During the meeting a cease  fire is established among every tribe. The only Ice Tribe that does not participate (but yet respects the cease fire) are the Himiko.



 People. The Icemen are mainly renowned for their ability as warriors. They live in a constant warfare among each other, the giants that live in their land and the elements of nature. They are considered fearless and with excellent endurance, although warriors from the civilised world consider them to be barbaric berserkers without a fighting technique. Their social ranking is determined by their gallantry in battle. Magic in general is abhorred by them as most of the advances of civilisation. Although mages are not generally welcome, several groups have been spared. However, usage of magic is punished with capital punishment.


The Ice Tribesmen are warlike people that live more on instinct than logic. They hardly express their emotions and usually they are hard and unforgiving in their everyday lives. They seldom feel compassion or mercy for anyone, which is considered as a sign of weakness, and they are offended if anyone feels that way for them. There is no providence for the weak or disabled who are left to die or slaughtered if they can’t kill themselves with honour. Old people who have no living relatives are left to die, unless they lost their families in war. Sterile males are condemned, because they produce no warriors for the tribe, while sterile females are forced to become prostitutes. The Ice Tribes recognise no human rights for those who can’t bear weapons. Women and children are considered living things and are in the absolute disposal of their Master (usually the father or husband). Among the Ice Tribes there is an old custom that if a female takes arms against the Himiko and kills at least one she achieves the warrior status as long as she is willing to participate in battle. However, females cannot achieve further honours as warriors as they are considered inferior to men.

The Ice Tribes are also notorious for the hardness of their lives. They can suffer the worst tortures without complaining just like they can mercilessly give pain to others. Slavery is an usual state of existence for the ones that can’t bare arms and defend themselves or for the defeated in battle.
A sound exception in the Ice Tribes is the Himiko tribe, who occupy the islands around the Three Islands‘Bay. In contrary to the majority of the other ice tribes on the mainland, they have not only a slightly other appearance, but a very different lifestyle as well. They are friendly and use a form of magic in their everyday life. This is the reason why the rest of the Ice Tribes hate the Himiko. Their hatred is revitalised by the fact that from time to time Himiko raiding parties steal their females, granting them freedom in their islands.


You will be of course fitter to join this brainstorming if you read the whole entry about the icetribes  and the myth section of following entries:


Icetribes, Main Entry (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/ice_tribes.htm#Religion/Belief)
Thunderfoot (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/thunderfoot.htm)
Hrugchuck Grass (http://www.santharia.com/herbarium/hrugchuck_grass.htm)
The White Bear (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/white_bear.htm)
Nechya‘s  Rope (http://www.santharia.com/culture/nechyas_rope.htm)
Caracal (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/cat_caracal.htm#Myth/Lore)
Hrugchuck Mouse (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/hrugchuck_mouse.htm#Myth/Lore)
Wison (http://www.santharia.com/bestiary/wison_iceland.htm)
Flying  Spark Grass (http://www.santharia.com/herbarium/flying_sparks.htm#Myth/Lore)

After a few discussions, especially after Trels input I saw, that everybody who wants to dig deeper into this matter needs to know a bit about the model as well, e.g. that the days in the north are NOT shorter in winter etc. Especially the relation between the day and night gods has to be seen under the "laws" of the model - the day god (if we connect him to the sun) moves away and comes back, the nightgod stays and appears most times bigger then the day god.

so I recommend to go through the Model (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,3751.0.html) as well. (I did it some time ago, but the way to make it to an entry in the compediumis a hard and long one ;) )


 Happy brainstorming!


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 18 August 2007, 05:46:52
Myth section in the Wison entry would be a good idea to read.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 18 August 2007, 05:53:34
How could I miss that!  :undecided: :huh: :rolleyes: :shocked:


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 18 August 2007, 06:08:04
Its ok,  ;)

I would like to see that perhaps in the mythology of this pantheon, a more greek type of philosophy.  It would be nice to see the gods actively interfere with the mortals that have come after them.  Perhaps each tribe being descended from certain gods through love affairs with women (hearkening back to all of Zeus love interests with mortals: changing into a swan to seduce Leda, a bull to kidnap Europa, a shower of gold for Danae).  The gods picking sides in inter tribal wars, IE the Trojan War.

The ice Tribes are under such extreme pressures just to survive, it would make sense that the gods would seem to them to interfere.  Why did one tribe survive while others did not?  The gods of course.  How could something as the Hrugchuk grass and all its benefits come to be in such an inhospitable environment?  The gods.

I think it would be nice to see a mythology where the gods treated mortals almost as playthings.  This does not mean each does.  Perhaps Nechya might be one who views mortals as her children so to speak.

Just my san and a half worth of thought.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Petros Greenvale on 18 August 2007, 06:42:58
Wow,Greek Mythology!!! :D

My R.E teacher said that i could have easily done a P.h.d. in it, and its something im really passionate about, id be more than happy to aid you in anyway i can! :grin:


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 22 August 2007, 03:55:20
Another link you should add Talia: Flying Sparks Grass (http://www.santharia.com/herbarium/flying_sparks.htm)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 August 2007, 03:57:52
Thanks Arceon, how could I forget it, I mentored that entry!


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 22 August 2007, 04:01:07
Despite having little input on this topic I would just like to say to Altario:

Its good to see somebody remembers what they write and 'recycles' it...Good Job with the ideas everyone!


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Trelstahl on 22 August 2007, 12:16:50
Hi Talia,

This one made me really think!  I like it.   :)

The way I see it, you've asked for brainstorming on four topics: 1) how this religion should look like, 2) how the gods should act, 3) which relation they should have to their people, or 4) how they interact with themselves.  I've discussed a little of all four topics below, but emphasized the topic of how the gods interact among themselves.

In my opinion, there are many ways that are immediately obvious.  The first dynamic is based on the fact that the Ice Tribes "think that the world is ruled by 15 gods, who actually have the form of the element they represent".   You could therefore base their interactions on the elements and is typically seen as opposing elements, so the 'water-based' (i.e. Chelinor (snow), Reanor (rain), Pargis (ice), Heterniz (water))gods would all have friendly relations with one another, and be on bad terms with Peierojon (fire) and possibly Weabor (wind) and Ertemmir (the earth).  However, this seems a little bit overdone, and something that we see in so many other fantasy religions.  As well, I get the feeling that these 15 gods are equals, with the exception of Phoblit (the male day god) and Nechya (the female night goddess)

One twist that could be applied to this would be to have all the water-based gods vying for "control" over their element, with Hetermiz as an 'arbitrator' of disputes among these gods.

Here's another possibility that I like a little more:  The section on Holidays, Festivals and Observances states that 'the Icemen have many holidays that are connected with the change of seasons.'  Perhaps the gods that represent the weather at certain times of the year could be friendly with one another.  So, for example, Chelinor (snow), Pargis (ice), and maybe Zundefor (the land animal spirit, in the form of the great white bear), are allies, or perhaps are worshipped moreso during the winter months.  Reanor (rain), Ertemmir (earth) - both for crops - and maybe Heterniz (water) and Aleshnir (the sea animal spirit, maybe because whaling is easier in the spring when the ice breaks up - not sure).   Peierojon (fire), Brender (thunder), and Asterlin (lightning) may be prayed to more during the summer months, and the fall might be reserved for Weabor (wind) and Asendin (sea).  I'm struggling to see where death fits in - possibly he is tied to the end of the warm summer months, or is neutral toward all the other gods.

Nechya (the female night goddess) might be friendly to the winter gods, as this is when the nights are longer, while Phoblit (the male day god) could be allied with the summer gods, when days are longest.

Cheers!

Trel.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 22 August 2007, 13:04:48
Quote
You could therefore base their interactions on the elements and is typically seen as opposing elements, so the 'water-based' (i.e. Chelinor (snow), Reanor (rain), Pargis (ice), Heterniz (water))gods would all have friendly relations with one another, and be on bad terms with Peierojon (fire) and possibly Weabor (wind) and Ertemmir (the earth).  However, this seems a little bit overdone, and something that we see in so many other fantasy religions.

I agree with you on this, Trel.  Is very reminiscent even of the 12 gods, where there are 3 gods each of the 4 elements.  I'm hoping we can go in a new direction with this. 

To be quite honest, the names of the gods do not give me a full idea which are male or female in nature.  But, I was hoping to find a way to make the two main seasons, Summer and Winter, the result of a love triangle between the gods, where the one god in the center, must spend half the year with one love (winter) and the other half with the other (summer).  But, I have not yet read every myth and formed the sexes yet, so this might not be possible.

Quote
Nechya (the female night goddess) might be friendly to the winter gods, as this is when the nights are longer, while Phoblit (the male day god) could be allied with the summer gods, when days are longest.

Also, are the days different in length in a disk world such as this?  The question actually came up just today in working on another project.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 August 2007, 17:39:04
Trel, thank you for your input, would be nice to have you here around as well!

Trel, Altario, and everyone else of course ;) You need to know more about the "physics" of the disk as we defined it two years ago. Please go and work yourself through the Model (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,3751.0.html)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Trelstahl on 23 August 2007, 11:31:11
I hadn't thought about the physics of a disk world, but having read through the entry on the model, I see that day and night are equally long irregardless of season.  My proposal about tying the night goddess to winter and the sun god to summer was flawed in its reasoning.  Intuitively though, it makes sense to tie the sun god to summer.  Only by elimination then, could the night goddess be tied to the other major season - winter.

I like your ideas regarding the relationships between summer and winter, Altario.

Have the gods' genders' been assigned yet, Talia?  I think Altario wants to play matchmaker!   ;)   

Trel.



Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 23 August 2007, 20:33:34
This time I know nothing more than what the entry says, don't know if Pikel or Curgan hadsometing else in mind.

I will email Pikel again, hope he reads his mail so that we know, if he wants to be involved or not.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 17 September 2007, 03:50:57
Takor, with your permission, I would like to look over the reference entries and make a list of gods according to their gender.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 17 September 2007, 04:00:24
Go ahead, just post what you find or just write undecided!


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 17 September 2007, 04:42:14
The list of genders for the gods. I also saw a problem in this area.

The mating between Zundefor and the three below mentioned "female" gods is quite unclear. According to the thundefoot entry Brender mated with Zundefor and gave birth to thunderfoot. This brings two questions: if Brender is male, how can he gave birth? If Brender is somewhat hemaphrodite (there aren't any references that some of the 15 are hemaphrodite), why is he referred to as "he"? Same issue goes for Necteref and Chelinor.

Anyway this is the list for my theory of supposing that Brender, Chelinor and Necteref are female:


Female:
Brender (source: the Thunderfoot entry, although in the Overview she is called Brender the „Thunder God“ and is generaly refered to as „he“ )
Necteref(source: Carcal entry, same as Brender)
Chelinor(source: the Hrugchuk Mouse entry, same problem as Nectref and Brender)
Nechya
Aleshnir

Male:
Zundefor
Ertemmir
Phoblit
Astrelin
Pargis
Peierojon

Undecided(no references):
Waebor
Reanor
Asendin
Heterniz



Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 17 September 2007, 23:48:28
Thanks for pointing that out, Arceon, I will look into the matter.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 24 September 2007, 05:38:56
With the Dark Stryke Shark entry, Aleshnir was just made female... hope it didn't hurt.....

I would like to see Reanor and Asendin made female too I should think... no reason, other than the names sound female....

and Takor, I have read all the entries on the physical dynamics of the world now, and it has made more sense of things for me, thank you....


I'm hoping we can start brainstorming with this.... I would like to start at some point a Mythology Compendium of the Ice Tribes, where the myths are put together in such a way as to tell the entire story of the world creation and the interaction between the gods and the gods and mortals.....




Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 24 September 2007, 05:58:26
Quote
The Icemen believe that Zundefor and Aleshnir mated with the other gods and with each other giving birth to mortal life. The humans according to their beliefs are the children of Phoblit and Nechya mating one time before they begin their eternal warfare.

This is something else that should be cleared up.  As it states now, who is the mother of the human race?  The one sentence says Aleshnir gave birth to mortal life, but the very next sentence says that Nechya gave birth to humans.  My entries have always been based on Nechya, but I have noticed others going the other way.....


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 24 September 2007, 06:03:57
Oh yes!
Could you solve that problem Arceon mentioned above?


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 25 September 2007, 06:21:28
Quote
I would like to see Reanor and Asendin made female too I should think... no reason, other than the names sound female....
I've was thinking the same thing too. And before we make any myths or stories, Altario, we should define the connections between gods, the connection between gods and humans(worshiping) and connection between gods and their elements(their representation in each element)...
Quote
This is something else that should be cleared up.  As it states now, who is the mother of the human race?  The one sentence says Aleshnir gave birth to mortal life, but the very next sentence says that Nechya gave birth to humans.  My entries have always been based on Nechya, but I have noticed others going the other way.....

I understood that fine when I read the entry... the sentence structure is probably off there. It should probably read that Nechya gave birth to human race and Aleshnir gave birth to all other mortal life....


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 25 September 2007, 06:24:22
hmmm... my mistake was assuming mortal life meant human.... :grin:

and for sure, before we go too far into stories all that needs to be worked out... lol, my unfortunate circumstance is that ALL my entries are Ice Tribe and or Remusian in nature, so my myth/lore sections need to get covered somehow... but, if anything does not jive after we have this ironed out, I can always go back and revise them, that is no trouble... luckily, few others find the far north that exciting, lol, except the dog and icesnout entries... hmm, bittersweet to see it catching hold somewhat.... hopefully, we can integrate much of the previous developed stuff into this new vision quite ably.....


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 26 September 2007, 01:54:03
This is great! 


I hope we can get input from Pikel and Curgan, but otherwise we may just have to go ahead and update the entry.  I like the idea of introducing the flavour of Greek mythology, i.e gods interacting directly with humans and having human feelings (baser as well as higher).  However, I bet the Ice Tribe's idea of an underworld wouldn't be hot  :lol:

I might have a bit more time to address this issue in the next few days, now that my little one will be in daycare three days a week.   If we do need to update the entry, I can help Altario with that.

The undecided gods could be :

a) randomly assigned a gender
b) hermaphrodite
c) able to switch genders
d)  neuter (no gender)
d) any combination of the above

Having gods that are not specifically male or female would add an element of originality and might make it more interesting as well, particularly for myths and tales.

Anyway, I'm glad to see some discussion on this.  I felt the entry could have been a bit more specific.


Alysse


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 September 2007, 02:09:26
Alysse, though of course we can add a bit to the icetribes' entry itself, this was meant for an own whole submission about a religion.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 26 September 2007, 03:16:45
I wonder.... with the Ice Tribes so very strong in their own depictions of male/female roles, would they have gods who are more or less able to switch back and forth?  Men are not allowed to do womens jobs, and a woman trying to do men's jobs might just find herself dead for her troubles... with that in mind, I find it a little hard to imagine a pantheon of gods with no clearly defined gender roles.... just my idea, but feel free to convince me I'm wrong..... :grin:

in keeping with that thought, are the goddesses of this pantheon more subservient to the gods?  I would like it not to be so, but would need a reason to allow the goddesses that much power.....

Hell, just to put a name to the underworld, which would need to be changed later, if indeed they even have such a place, might still be a hot place for them.  Cold to them is the norm, it is what they see, the endure, they live with.  A place of fire, molten rock, no ice/snow would be a very scary foreign world to them.  Many of them have never seen bare earth, save for the underdeveloped hot springs, so a place where there was no ice/snow might scare the bejjebies out of them.....

BTW, will look forward to you adding to our discussions Alysse, as your input is very valued and desired... :grin:


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 September 2007, 03:50:07
I have to agree with you, Altario, I'm so sorry!
But gods with no gender or not a defined one would be very suspect. However, the first Afrasnyr  was the hermaphrodite chaos god. I don't know, if this word is used correctly here, if Afrasnyr should not just be without any sex.

If I look at them as a developer, I can say, they have created their gods after their needs, their society, so it would be not far fetched, if all gods except one (whom they need for reproduction) would be male or even if all the gods would be male and do the job of creation themselves. But the entry gives some guide already - they mate.
Of course I would love to see strong goddesses, but I'm not sure, if we should create them, if not their only power would lie in the capability of reproduction.

Don't feel bound by what is written already, there are not so many entries around that we could not switch the gender of one or the other god even in the main icetribes entry - if Curgan agrees of course.

So the most plausible scenario for me would now be just one female god and the whole pantheon male.

Could it be, that in the main entry the both animal spirits were meant to be female, all other gods male except Nechya?


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 26 September 2007, 04:50:38
Not sure, but as the land animal spirit, Zundefor has definitely become male.....

Definately the Pantheon should be heavilly favored by the males, but I'm hoping we can keep more than one or two females to create a more fluid dynamic when we go to create the plots and subplots of the pantheatic culture.... males alone limits this to struggles about possession and power, but adding females adds the sex/love dynamic and jealousy....  a more interesting milieu IMHO... as a dev I want as a diverse a palette as I can get in order to begin my work.... 

Again, just stating my view so that we can all come to a concensus....  more than willing to give/take on this...
 


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 26 September 2007, 06:31:03
Well, I was just tossing some ideas around for interest's sake, not trying to say that it should be that way.  I still think the idea of a genderless or hermaphrodite god is a neat one but perhaps not for the Ice tribes, then.  What about having genderless servants for the gods?  Sort of demi-gods or angels--not all-powerful, but able to act as messengers, servants, and possibly intercessors?

Okay, okay, I'll get back to the real discussion.  I think at least a few goddesses is a good idea as well, for interest's sake if nothing else. They might not be as important as the males, but perhaps the stories might depict them as being more cunning.  Since the Ice Tribes believe in aggressive male dominance, perhaps some of that dominance is rooted in insecurity and fear--an unrecognized but very real fear of the confusing and incomprehensible, but desirable mystery that is woman.

 Thus, though their goddesses might be less powerful, they are more cunning and deceitful, thus providing a justification for the males to keep their females "under control" or "in-line".

I hope I'm explaining myself clearly:  I'm being seriously distracted by my children's bids for attention, homework help and sibling rivalry.  I've also got to get some supper  preparations started really soon, so I'd better go. 

Later,


Alysse.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 26 September 2007, 06:53:47
oohhh... as a multi divorced man... cunning and sneaky women sounds so very real to me, lol....

I like that idea... also, some sort or type of sexless servantile messengers sounds good too... 

I also would like to see each of the gods have a sort of .... not sure the word.... familiar is as close as i can come... from my research for my shark, i came upon a myth that stated that Zundefor had given the Caracal to Necteref, as a familiar, so I created the myth where Aleshnir created the Dark Stryke Shark to be Asendin's familiar.  These familiars I was thinking could be a personification of the animal... not a beast, but not not a beast... A caracal that thinks, talks, plans, schemes, eyc, for their master... a right hand man so to speak....

Just a thought....

I want this religion to be the fullest we can make it... the example that the rest look to for inspiration....  the more involved it is, the more intensive and extensive we can make it, the more real it will be...


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 26 September 2007, 17:06:19
Oh yes, I like the ideas which are comming along!  The woman who seems only to be weak , but hides her cleverness - maybe true for the icetribes women as well, though I don't think, that they see themselves as such, not generally . (We need to have a clear distinction to my Himiko! ;) )
But this trait has to be described in the stories/myths as well!
This neuter servant in the form of not beast, not man, but both is a genial idea, Altario, it could be from me ! ;)

Altario, I think there is no religious overview for the Santharian gods yet, just single myths scattered in the literature.
But go ahead, I support your high aiming plans! :)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 27 September 2007, 14:46:43
 ;)  I'm learnin.....

now the idea of an underworld has come up... but what about the abode of the gods?  a mount olympus of sorts..... they need a home, and the Ice Lands are their playgrounds.... with humans as playthings... i think.....


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 27 September 2007, 16:10:38
Yes, let's see:

Heaven: A Refugio far in the north. When I visited Art ages ago we expanded the map so that Caelereth will once be a real disk. There I proposed to add another smaller continent in the very north. My thoughts turned around this continent afterwards and I imagined it as a huge mountain/ice barrier ( behind which a land lies where perhaps the sun never shines). The icetribes may have seen it from afar on one of the few days were the ice on the sea in this regions melted to a certain degree (so that ships could penetrate). There they could imagine the residence of their gods.

Hell: I would go away (well, I would like to) from the image that the hell is underneath your feet. It could be in the very south, maybe Aeruillin is in their imagination the hell?

LOL: The names for
Heaven -  Icespring  (maybe they imagine all the ice coming from the north)
Hell: Aeruillin  (I'm not really serious with this one) or Aerin (better)

How does hell look like and who goes there? All people who have died (Hades)? Or are the good ones allowed to join the gods in heaven/Icespring? Is coming in the hell a punishment? Can you get out again? Let me remind you that these are views of the catholic church which may not apply here!


And what we need to consider as well is the fact, that if we choose this scenario the moon and with it Nyecha? will have a strong position for the moon circles in the north and appears there most times bigger than the sun which gets smaller and bigger during the year. (Biggest in summer) The myths need to reflect this as well.

(Look up the model if you are unsure)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 29 September 2007, 02:31:15
Perhaps the underworld (hell) could be a testing place where they are tested by the gods to determine their "fitness" for the Refugio/Icespring--those who don't "pass" must remain, to be retested every thousand years or something like that?

Thus "Aerin" (or whatever we want to call it) is a sort of Purgatory, but not necessarily a place of hideous torment by devils.  Instead it is a kind of endless desert.  We can work out the procedures  by which they believe people are"tested" later.

What do you think?

Alysse


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 29 September 2007, 03:39:22
Quote
but not necessarily a place of hideous torment by devils
Suggestion: I had an idea of some sort of "devils", they are actually dead people who failed the testing on countless occasions and are forever trapped inside Aerin. They failed the tests so many times that the gods have forbidden them from ever taking the test again. They would also be jealous about others who can take the test and would get in the way of those who take the test...


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 29 September 2007, 04:10:16
As long as we stay clearly away from the name (and partly concept )"devil" it is fine with me.
Those who failed all tests and will never sit with the gods... what a terrible idea!

What about famous warriors, merited ones. Have they to absolve that test as well, or is there a way to avoid that place? Do have bad warriors harder tests? And what about the property women? They probably won't have a place in this Valhalla, that would degrade the men! Maybe they have no afterlife. Would be another reason to dream of the Himikos! (This place could be full of young women - but let us not get too close to the Muslim idea of their heaven)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 29 September 2007, 04:48:56
Those who fail all the tests several times in a row don't get to sit with the gods.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 29 September 2007, 21:53:36
Warriors who showed cowardice in battle should not get to take this test at all.  Perhaps they can be these devils that we are talking about.  Dishonored warriors and such.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 29 September 2007, 22:14:01
Yep, that might work.
Or there might be some sort of a courage test to determine cowards and ban them from the Icespring...


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 29 September 2007, 22:18:44
Maybe we need three "Places" :

The god's realm(heaven)
a kind of limbus (is this the right word?) where the tests take place
The "lost ones" realm (hell)

Very brave warriors come directly to the gods, cowards (if they have died during this battle) directly to the "lost ones".

????
Geographical location?

The gods realm - in the very north
"lost place" - in the very south (where it is oh sooo hot)
Limbus - in the NE and NW where the moon enters the void.

---- The gods realm is nearr than the hell!!!!


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 29 September 2007, 22:25:57
Makes sense to me :grin:

I like the idea of Limbo, where you are judged.  If we put that in the NE NW where the moon rises and sets, then we should bring some extra significance to the moon itself.  Is it a "holy eye" or something that watches the actions of man, so that when you go to Limbo, it is these actions that you are judged on?


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 30 September 2007, 02:16:47
The concept of Limbo is good but can we avoid the name?  (thinks of all the associations, including dancing, that go with that term)  Can we just call it the "Void" or the "Judgement Realm" or "Place of the Undead" (idea being that until they pass into Icespring or Aerin, they are considered 'undead"--not alive  but not precisely dead either.

I agree that we shouldn't use the term "devil"--too much RL baggage with that term too.  Perhaps we should just call them the "Dishonoured Ones" or the "Lost Ones" or something like that.

These are great ideas! Maybe once we get this organized we can develop some myths, too.

But I think women should be included (both in Icespring, as servants to the men and Aerin, where their spirits join in with trying to prevent the undead from fulfilling their tasks)   Thus a "good" woman is granted the privilege of easy, undemanding service in Icespring, where a "bad" one goes straight to Aerin.  They might not be tested, but sent straight to one place or the other.
Without the promise of a better afterlife, what incentive would they have to be "good" women?  There is a big difference between resentful obedience and co-operative compliance.

Well, need to run, see you guys later,

Alysse


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 30 September 2007, 02:24:57
As far as I know, the terms we are using are all just for our benefit now, so we know what each other means.  I would hope that we are going to change all the names to protect the innocent... er, to more Ice Tribe sounding names.  I had no intention of naming this testing ground Limbo, or purgatory or anything like that, just using it so that you all knew to what I was referring.  Naming these places can come after we decide how they work, for what is their purpose, etc.

I like involving the women.  Besides, what man wants to go to a place where he will spend eternity and not have a female to look at??  Not me!! :grin:


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 30 September 2007, 05:18:29
If we go for a three place idea then I suggest that in this "Limbo" humans are tested not by gods but by some kind of "lesser spirit", we can make that each god has a test and their familiars conduct and supervise these tests...


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 01 October 2007, 08:58:04
Okay, just so we can nail some concepts down, let's regroup here.  Right now we've mostly worked out the ideas of:

A "heaven", a "hell", and a "limbo".  I like the names Talia suggested; "Icespring" and "Aerin"--shall we make those official?  And then we can use "Void" for the testing grounds, if that's agreeable.

In Icespring we have gods, goddesses, their gender neutral servants and those fortunate spirits who have passed the testing.  Goddesses are not as powerful as gods but are more cunning/tricky.

Aerin is populated by the desolate spirits that have failed (after several tries?  3 times, maybe? ) to pass the testing

The Void (or Judgement Grounds, or whatever) is populated by those being tested and those who have failed one or two times but not yet been sent on

Those seem to be fairly well agreed on (correct me if I'm wrong, please!)


Then we have some other ideas which need to be decided on, such as:

Testing is for males only--females are sent directly to one place or the other

The gods each have their own tests, conducted by their familiars (or possibly the genderless servants?)


I'm not trying to make any kind of final judgement here, just hoping to get some things settled so we have a foundation to build on.    Input, anyone?


Alysse





Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 01 October 2007, 15:15:38
All fine with me - except - I think it is a bit too much if every god tests every single man coming to the testing grounds. I think the interest of the gods in the humans is not this great. Especially if we want to describe these test (and we should at least hint at what kind of tests these are, or not?) then we would have quite some work to do and maybe these test are not of a kind we want to describe in detail.

I'm not sure either if these neutral servants should do the tests. This would determine their nature maybe more than we want to. perhaps we should first sketch their character:
- messanger of the gods
- intermediator between gods and men?
- playmate(toy, not what you think :p), companion of the gods

This far it has quite a positive feeling, if we add the testing, this might change dramatically.

How, BTW, should this testing look like?

To the women - I think it is a good idea to send them straight away to either place - that shows their lower status very well.



Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Gwai'ayia Quillouf on 01 October 2007, 22:46:56
I was reading through this and found interesting, and since I love greek literature....here is my own two cents if you want my input:

Void (Judgement Place):

Few ideas here as far as looks and other things as well.

Instead of having all the gods sending their messengers or familiars for that matter to perform a 'test' to evaluate 'warriors', and thus having all the 'gods' being involved how about just one or two being actively involved in the 'judgement' while the others initally designed the place but are no longer actively involved.

The two gods/goddess that should be strongly consider IMHO is the moon goddess (or night goddess) since is also mentioned (I think) as the mother of all humans, and the ice tribes god/goddess of death.  Logically, this would make sense, and it would elimnate the need for two many of the gods involvement in the Void or The Judgement Place.

However, one possibiltiy is for each god to have a dedicated section or location where his/her element is represented.  An intial founding will allow involvment on each gods part showing their interest, but would allow for lack of interest later in the matters of death.Each test should probably be designed to 'test' the 'worthiness' of a warrior. 

For example: For the Warrior to pass through Fire for the Fire God, To Survive a Bitter Winter for the Ice God, to Beat a Snow Strom for the Snow God, to bring down a huge beast for the Earth God (since he's considered a beast himself), etc.

I also think that the 'warriors' intentions could be tested through this test, if the warrior 'wants' to go to Icespring bad enough by having several 'temptations', possibly as the goddesses tests, arise to see if the 'warrior' will stray from the 'path' carved in the void or judment place by the gods to guide them.

I think the "Unworthy Ones" or the "Dishonered" would be a good term for those lost beings who failed the test.

I am also of the opinion that worthy warriors, who have proven themself by a great dead in life should be awarded by a straight trip to icespring or perhaps awarded a minor 'godship' like some of the heros of the greek patheon (most notably Herclues but there were others).

Familiars:

I think that each familiar's 'role' if you will should be determined by the nature of their particular god or godess.  But in general I think that they should be sort of spies/guards to the gods if you will, to spy on man, and possibly to communicate messages to man kind.  If you base the idea on the familiars being a little bit of man and beast, it would make sense for the messengers to be in general mute obversers and judgers of mans life in hopes to catch man unaware.

Of course, this doesn't prevent exceptions to the rule.

But all that's IMHO.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Takór Salenár on 01 October 2007, 23:47:00
Good proposals!  The only part I'm not sure about is that a goddess should judge the warriors, for then a woman (even if she is a goddess) would judge a man - and she might be too soft, if mankind sprung from her hips.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Gwai'ayia Quillouf on 02 October 2007, 00:41:19
Well, if you follow my humble suggest you could easily make the representive of death, I forget the name at the moment so sorry, be a male god (in the form of a harsh warrior perhaps) and have his judgement be harsh or fair...and have the goddess there to sort of 'soften' the judgement of the god of Death but always have his judgment over rule hers.



Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 02 October 2007, 01:44:35
Actually, that was sort of what I meant when I said the gods should have different tests. I didn't mean every god should test each man.  I guess I wasn't very clear there.  I meant that warriors, artists, hunters, musicians, story-tellers, etc., would all be tested differently and thus by a different god/goddess.  Each would have his/her own special area of interest to test on.  Not to mention infants or children--perhaps the goddesses, as lesser powers, would only be responsible for their acceptance into Icespring. Though I sort of like the idea of them trying to tempt or distract the men from succeeding in their tests--it fits with the whole idea of women being weaker but cunning and deceitful.

I agree, for great heroes, the tests should be waived and they should go directly to the Icesprings.

You're right, Takor, the testing should be the domain of the deities alone.  When I think about it, it would give the servants too much power.


Alysse


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Pikel on 06 January 2008, 10:30:51
Hello everyone!

Sorry I haven't been around for this, I started the entry on Iceland's Religion about a year ago, and have lost Internet for the past 6 months, and thus was unable to keep up with this thread to put down my thoughts and feelings. While yes, I have started an entry on all this, I must say I really like some of the ideas presented here. Just
thought I'd jot down some of my own ideas.

Gender of the Gods.
Quite frankly, while i enjoy diversity, with the exception of the Remusians and the Himiko, the ice tribes respect for women is so low that i just cannot see them worshiping a female deity, if they even believe a female can *be* deific. This presented a problem for me, because the gods mated to create life throughout the world. My thoughts on this were simple:

Nechya (Goddess of the Night) Would be female, the only true female goddess. Due to their lack of respect for females, I would think that the Ice Tribes would do very little at night, staying inside whatever shelter was available to them, distrusting the night and moon.

Zundefor and Aleshnir (the land and sea animal spirits respectively) Would Change sex. They'd be male, except in the cases when they need to mate, then they'd be able to concieve and give birth, but remain male after that.

Every other God would be Male.

The Gods' Interaction with the Mortal World
Like the Greeks, I believe the God's would engage in their eternal war via the mortal world, but more than just with the humans. If you read the Hrugchuck, Hrugchuck mouse, Thunderfoot, Caracal, and burning grass entries, they show that the gods wage their war through all forms of life. It is a continual contest of one upmanship.

How the ice tribe's are directly related to this, i have yet to think of. Perhaps each tribe (with the exception of the remusians and himiko) considers itself a representative of sorts to certain deities. Perhaps even the himiko could consider itself a representative of Nechya, and thus would always perform it's raids on the mainland tribes during the night (they raid the other tribes to kidnap women, thus saving them from the brutality of male dominance). This could also explain the Ice Tribes perpetual state of war and contest. If the God's are at war, then surely so must their representatives be at war.

The Gods' Interaction with Eachother.
In my vision, the Gods are in a perpetual state of a 'cold war'. War without outright open warefare with eachother. Instead the live their war vicariously through the mortal world.  I haven't thought much on 'alliances', but the idea is intriguing.

Death
The one thing The Ice tribe's value above *all* others is strength. Weakness is not excusable. Compassion, mercy, and tendernesss are all words with no meaning. The Ice Tribes care for nothing that cannot wield a blade. Thus, they way to "iceSpring' (I really enjoy this name, gives both the idea of strength as well as the thought of where it all comes from) is their battle. Only a warrior may make it to the 'heaven' of IceSpring. Women and children are considered nothing more than property, and thus, do not grace the halls of 'IceSpring'.

'IceSpring' i think, should not be the home of the Gods however. I like the idea of the god's being more....nomadic. the possibility of 'meeting' one possible. I think IceSpring should be the home of the Ancients, or ancestors of all the ice tribes.

As far as 'Hell', i'm not sure if one should exist. I always imagined that the Tribes would believe that if one is not worthy of 'IceSpring', then they would just cease to be, although this idea of being put in a void, not unlike the fate of Afresnir, the chaos god that started this whole mess ;)

I'll post more later methinks. Throw some thoughts at me :d

(I just wanted to note that I don't think the beliefs i outlined above would be part of the remusian or himiko beliefs. Completely different cultures i believe)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Aurora Damall on 06 January 2008, 11:04:28
I would imagine the man of the family be tested, and if he passes the women and children go with him. For they, to the males, are nothing more than property. I also think that the Ice Tribes would worship a female godess, however either she'd be savage and barbaric or beautiful and intoxicating. Both of these ideas for godesses (I imagine) would be a fertility godess of some sorts.  On the subject of god vs. god relationship I quite like the idea of fighting through humans. Anyways that was my 2 sans. :grin:


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Pikel on 06 January 2008, 11:11:09
The idea of a goddess being represented as a fertility being makes sense for all but the Ice tribes, In my opinion. The Ice Tribes appreciate Strength. Not the giving of life. as a fertility Goddess would suggest, but the Taking of it. I can see the idea of a female oeddess being introduced, one completely of Fertility, made subservient to the other gods. However, I think that would require adding another Deity to the pantheon, something I am not opposed to.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 06 January 2008, 23:02:34
Quote
Zundefor and Aleshnir (the land and sea animal spirits respectively) Would Change sex. They'd be male, except in the cases when they need to mate, then they'd be able to conceive and give birth, but remain male after that.

Wouldn't this contradict the Ice Tribes low respect for women. If these two gods had to change their genders to mate, wouldn't it mean that the Ice Tribes have less respect for them as gods and thus have less respect for everything they've created, including the useful animals that the Ice Tribes need to survive; and as several entries show, their respect (for example the albino wison(one of Zundefor's forms)) is great.
The two-gender pantheon has more sense to me because it presents the in-replaceable, but still-not-as-important-as-male's(this could be presented in Gods-Goddesses relationships)  role in the cycle of creating and taking of life. Of course, this view on the religion complicates Pikel's one tribe=one god theory., which sounds good to me too.   


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 07 January 2008, 03:56:23
Hi Pikel:

I read with anticipation your post, and have spent time muling it over before addressing it.

Gender
I think that the lines between men and women are too strong within the Ice Tribes to accept a god just switching back and forth between genders.  I think they would consider this even more abhorrent than actually having a female goddess.  Men do not become women.

Interaction
I like the idea of each separate tribe having a Patron God, and perhaps each clan within that tribe as well.  The cold war is good as well, though flare ups need to happen from time to time, but yes...

Death
Do you not think a testosterone ruled people such as the Ice Tribes are not going to want female companionship in the afterlife?  Without judgement, I point toward extreme Muslims, who are considered to be quite misogynistic, where upon death in an act of terrorism, are promised 70 virgins in the afterlife.  Just a thought.

Also, why can't the Icespring be their home, like Mount Olympus?  This does not preclude them from wandering the Ice Lands, in fact, encourages it to further their cold war tactics,


Lastly, thank you for the Remusian and Himiko disclaimer.  They will be based off what is presented here, but perhaps not in agreement, as it will have evolved over time.

Look forward to more discussions. :D


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Bard Judith on 07 January 2008, 09:14:24
You might think about having any goddesses (female goddess being redundant :P ) actually depicted as servants of the gods - each male having a female 'subordinate' who is subject to His will and directive.   Thus the god of War, for example, has as His mate (and, naturally, servant) the goddess of Fertility - He directs her to replace the warriors He has called to be his own.    That seems to fit remarkably well with the chauvinist societal structure of the Ice Tribes, doesn't it?

Alternatively, you could have a couple of truly terrifying goddesses who appear only 'nominally' female - similar to the Morrigan, or Macha of Celtic myth, or the skull-decked blood-gorging Aztec Coatlicue -  I quote:

"She is represented as a woman wearing a skirt of writhing snakes and a necklace made of human hearts, hands and skulls. Her feet and hands are adorned with claws (for digging graves) and her breasts are depicted as hanging flaccid from nursing. Coatlicue keeps on her chest the hands, hearts and skulls of her children so they can be purified in their mother's chest.  Almost all representation (sic) of this goddess depict her deadly side, because Earth, as well as loving mother, is the insatiable monster that consumes everything that lives. She represents the devouring mother, in whom both the womb and the grave exist."

My two sans worth - or, a couple of rain flurries to add to the brainstorms!  :)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Arceon Barrurbeleth on 08 January 2008, 06:01:52
Quote
You might think about having any goddesses (female goddess being redundant :P ) actually depicted as servants of the gods - each male having a female 'subordinate' who is subject to His will and directive.   Thus the god of War, for example, has as His mate (and, naturally, servant) the goddess of Fertility - He directs her to replace the warriors He has called to be his own.    That seems to fit remarkably well with the chauvinist societal structure of the Ice Tribes, doesn't it?

Really like the the idea Judy!!! :thumbup: You could also add Asgardian goddess of the frost giants, Skadi to the list of terrifying goddesses...


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Rookie Brownbark on 08 January 2008, 18:19:01
Do you not think a testosterone ruled people such as the Ice Tribes are not going to want female companionship in the afterlife?  Without judgement, I point toward extreme Muslims, who are considered to be quite misogynistic, where upon death in an act of terrorism, are promised 70 virgins in the afterlife.  Just a thought.

How about this?  If a man thinks that his wife has served him well in life, he can allow her into the afterlife to continue that service.  Kind of like bringing your favorite hunting spear along. It would also provide a good incenive for women to serve their husbands well in life.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Aurora Damall on 08 January 2008, 21:38:30
I like Rookie's idea, it fits into their life better. It makes the man seem like he has control over her, exactly the way the Ice Tribes do it. This is also a little like Bard Judiths idea of making subordinate gods. :grin:


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 09 January 2008, 07:15:20
Quote
Nechya (Goddess of the Night) Would be female, the only true female goddess. Due to their lack of respect for females, I would think that the Ice Tribes would do very little at night, staying inside whatever shelter was available to them, distrusting the night and moon.

Do the Icelands have extended periods of night like earths poles?

How about a young man who is engaged having to go out for an extended period of time in winter while their is a long night.

This would prove to her father he is worthy of her daughter that he can handle her.

He would have to face the elements with only things he could carry. He would be allowed one set of clothes and a knife of his own making. Other things allowed more clothes, carrying sacs, weapons, tools must be provided by his fiance.Bring food on start of trip is forbidden. Nechya would see what his fiance had made and have mercy on him.

Before the period of exile his future mother in law would prepare a great feast if she like him, if she didn't he would be lucky to get bread and water. He would then leave for a period he would have to stay gone long enough and bring back trophies of his exile to prove he was worthy. If the future father in law didn't like him :devilish:. He would actively hunt him. Other members of her family or rival males might hunt him as well. The latter would be more common if it was an arranged marriage and she was interested in another man.

If he survived they would be wed.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 09 January 2008, 08:04:34
Hmm...I don't know much about the ice tribes, but from what I've seen from this discussion they clearly see women as their subordinates.  Why then would they allow them to play such a huge role in something such as matrimony which has always been, traditionally, an affair among men?


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Bard Judith on 09 January 2008, 13:08:56
Don't Mormons also hold that women must be 'saved' or 'brought to faith' through their husbands?  Don't anyone jump on me if this is incorrect, I'm asking!   Again, this belief for the Ice Tribes would fit with a patriarchal structure.

That aside, it's a different issue from HOW the tribe believes to WHOM they believe in, and it seems we're thrashing out both issues at the moment.  How about those goddesses?  Do they exist at all besides Nech-what-have-ya, do we want a couple of terrifying ones, or meek subordinate 'pairs' for each of the male gods... let's get that discussion back on track too! 


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 09 January 2008, 13:46:48
I like the pairs!  (Sorry for the 'single-sentence-in-lieu-of-a-real-comment' comment :P but I'm busy today...)


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 09 January 2008, 14:39:15
Drasil
 :azn: Maybe as I've suggested it it give women to much power but I like the  idea of a banishment period where a young man has to survive on his own.


Judith

I think your right about the mormon wives. If the ice tribes practice polygyny it would be a good way to keep multiple wives in line.


As for whether or not they believe in goddesses and what they are like after looking over a list of Norse Gods and Goddesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norse_gods) and skimming the goddesses mentioned there I would say the ice tribes should definitely have goddesses and they should not be wimpy ones.



Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 09 January 2008, 16:01:14
Xera, the marital traditions of the Ice Tribes should be discussed elsewhere, not in this thread, which is concerned with the gods themselves, and really not even the worship of those gods, which is another brainstorming thread entirely.

Seems this thread is disolving into three topics.  Let us all please keep it to the make up of the gods themselves, not how the tribes worship them, and certainly not cultural traditions of the tribe.  Thank you Judith for trying to steer this back on course.

As far as the gods having subordinates, we have already thought of asexual beings, with a beast/man type right hand men.  If we go that route, do we need another type of subordinate?  Many type of strong patriarchal societies still had female goddesses in their pantheons (Greeks, Persians, Aztecs).  Should this be any different?  Maybe even make the goddesses those aspects of nature that the tribes fear the most, as fear breeds loathing, and this might be the seeds of the harsh view males have towards women.  Just brainstorming here.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Curgan on 09 January 2008, 17:01:43
Let us not forget also that the condition in the icelands are really harsh, so a banishment period or a very complex or "philosophical" system would be out of place IMO.


Title: Re: Brainstorming: Icetribes‘ Religion: The nature of the gods
Post by: Bard Judith on 09 January 2008, 23:27:19
"Maybe even make the goddesses those aspects of nature that the tribes fear the most, as fear breeds loathing, and this might be the seeds of the harsh view males have towards women..."

I think that's a brilliant observation.  Certainly of the various suggestions, the 'horrific' goddess is the avenue I'd choose to develop.

Logic:   They cannot be emulated by the women of the tribes because they are perceived as brutal, elemental forces (rather than strong avatars), they are resented and feared (those emotions being transferred to the subordinate women), and they are given tribute/placated (as opposed to being worshiped and revered) because of their arbitrary, irrational behaviour (the whims and vicissitudes of a cruel natural environment).

Curgan also reminds us that in Mazlow's pyramid of hierarchies, survival is the first basic need and spiritual development the last.... the Inuit, for example, would never consider banishment as it would effectively be a death sentence (not to compare the Ice Tribes culture with the gentle communal Inuit one!)  Xera's idea would add flavour to a more southern clan (perhaps even in a very southern desert, or the Isles) but I think it's unusable by the Ice Tribes).