Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Fox on 18 August 2007, 15:21:33



Title: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 18 August 2007, 15:21:33
As the Earth magic school was originally composed by Rayne nearly 4 years ago without being finished and integrated, I think it's time we get at least a basic entry on the site as it is the last of the four elemental schools that needs to be completed.

Is this reserved by anyone at this point in time? As much as I'd like to have Rayne come back and finish it I don't know what her status is at the moment.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 20 August 2007, 01:41:01
No progress and not really reserved either at the moment.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 20 August 2007, 08:24:27
I've unofficially asked to work on it multiple times, but have recieved no definite answer.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 20 August 2007, 09:23:31
Drasil, everyone has been hoping to see some format of this particular entry from you. If Fox is interested in assisting in this area maybe you two could get together on the subject. I will vouche for Fox's knowledge on the magic of Santharia. After a few minor debates in IRC with her on various subjects pertaining to magic, I would recommend her help on any material in this area.
~Sincerely~
Cáo fá cár'tuulén:Twen Araerwen


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Lorek Sarnif on 20 August 2007, 22:56:43
It would also do my heart great joy to see this area finished. Drasil, not to be rude; but I know better than that. You told me just last summer that you were working on it and it was going to be done in less than seven weeks, possibly approved by then. However, since Drasil seems to wish to carry the title of "Primary Earth Magic Developer" and do nothing in this area, may I also carry the title of "Jack of All Santharian Trades, Master of Many"? There are several areas I'd love to develop and many others I'd rather not touch.

One reason I would especially like to see this area developed is that Twen and I have held many debates; some several hours long, on Earth being a main element that necromancy should focus in. It is the element that defines the Death Goddess Queprur.  Spells like Bone Calling, Sanguinary Block, Raise Skeleton and Guise of Bones prove this fact. Also, Earth deals with things like plant growth and ALL metals of medieval times. Since Drasil is either too busy or lazy to develop in this area, anyone who wishes to do so has my full cooperation.

Solely @ Drasil: I humbly apologize if the above offended you, but you've gone over a YEAR without touching this subject. Give up on it? If so, why? Please message me with details.

Sincerely,
Dagan A. Ironfist


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Mina on 20 August 2007, 23:46:54
Quote
Spells like Bone Calling, Sanguinary Block, Raise Skeleton and Guise of Bones prove this fact.

http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11272.0.html (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11272.0.html)


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 20 August 2007, 23:51:38
I disagree with you Dagan...
Earth is not the element that goes with necromancy, its fire.
According to my own understanding of the spiritual aspects of fire:
Fire is the only element that needs fuel to exist and when this fuel  runs out, the fire will die. Much like people. Our own fire needs fuel which would be the will to survive/live. The more we desire to live or to survive, the bigger our fire gets but the more we loose our will to survive, the fire slowly dies. If we completely lose our will to live in the world, the more chances that you will commit suicide  :grin:. Its kinda hard to explain in text.

So fire would be needed to rekindle this lost hope in the dead, by giving them false hope that they are living they willl risr.. Its really hard to explain in text.

Earth is more on physical attributes. You can fix the bodie's injuries but not the soul...


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Gaffin on 21 August 2007, 01:32:38
Shansi, the dead aren't really sentiently "thinking". The fire is used to animate the subject, thus making it "alive"; it has nothing to do with giving a cadaver "hope".


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 21 August 2007, 01:43:28
Yeah I did not mean it literary (i think i spelled it right). It's just symbolism...


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 21 August 2007, 03:02:28
Earth is the literal element of death. Earth and Frost are both the elements for achieving or manipulating death itself. Fire, and to a lesser degree, wind as well, are the elements for reversing or escaping death.

Necromancy is not a field that is defined by simply one element, it has ties with all elements.



Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 21 August 2007, 03:18:27
Okay... I was actually having confusion on what necromancy should be, wind or fire but I never thought of both... :) thanks fox


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 August 2007, 03:50:31
Dagan:  It has not been over a year since I last "touched" the element of earth.  While my schedule has prevented me from deving as regularly as I used to, I have continued to write earth spells and have begun some of the necessary reworkings.  As I doubt you know, doing an entry such as rewriting a school of magic when it is already reserved for another member is extremely difficult and requires many permissions. 

Personally, I do not find you at all qualified to help with the entry in any way shape or form.

@Fox: Does the co-authorship sound good to you?  We bump into each other frequently on the IRC so it shouldn't be hard to find some time to discuss.  If you don't mind, I'd prefer to do the actual writing, but you vast knowledge would greatly appreciated.

@Mina:  Is it safe to assume that I have been given premission to work on the entry?


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 21 August 2007, 03:58:27
@Fox: Does the co-authorship sound good to you?  We bump into each other frequently on the IRC so it shouldn't be hard to find some time to discuss.  If you don't mind, I'd prefer to do the actual writing, but you vast knowledge would greatly appreciated.

As long as it gets written (without taking a year) then that's all I'm concerned with.



Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 August 2007, 04:15:03
Funny...

In that case I'll go digging to find Rayne's notes and begin to work


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 21 August 2007, 08:42:30
Quote
One reason I would especially like to see this area developed is that Twen and I have held many debates; some several hours long, on Earth being a main element that necromancy should focus in.
Yes we debated this BUT .... in noway was I supportive of the fact that Earth was a primary area for Necromancy! The solidity and stillness aspects of earth are highly contrary to the animation of the dead. Also! Queprur is most likely adamantly against necromantic arts. This goddess is the focus of DEATH and I would guess likes things to remain dead. IMHO

@Gaffin: You might be surprised what can be accomplished with necromancy. In fire alone there are more than a few spells that hint at what can or can not be done. But the extent of what the limitations of these are, continue to be defined.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 21 August 2007, 13:03:50
Quote
This goddess is the focus of DEATH and I would guess likes things to remain dead. IMHO

Yep. And Earth magic would be magic focusing on things remaining dead as well. Necromancy is not simply 'reanimating the dead', that is only one part of it (despite being the most common part). Necromancy is at its definition the magic of the dead. That does not necessarily mean reanimating the dead.

Earth magic Necromancy certainly exists but its spells would be spells that accelerate or mimic the processes of death, instead of reversing it. Things like bone flesh, that turn the skin to bone, body of the dead, where the entire body becomes corpse-like in appearance, heart stop, stopping an opponent's heart and other vital organs, and so on.

An Earth Necromancer would EMBRACE death, while Fire Necromancers try to prevent it or reverse it.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 21 August 2007, 14:00:46
Funny...

In that case I'll go digging to find Rayne's notes and begin to work

All I was saying was that I'm fine with you doing the writing. I did not create this thread just to get permission to do it, I just wanted to know if anything was being done on it. If you want to do it, then great, you have my full cooperation and support if you need and I'll comment on it if you have questions and when it gets posted.

All I wanted to know was whether or not work *was* actually being done in this area, because it is currently not reserved on the thread stickies and I think we've held off on getting Earth finished for long enough.



Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 21 August 2007, 17:53:46
All 4 elemental schools would have necromancy but they would all look at it different.

Fire Necromancer
the inner fire of any life must be maintained or it will die to raise the dead you need to reignite the fire.

Earth Necromancy
has the philosophy of "Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return" (Genesis 3:19) ( I know thats out of context and Caelereth doesn't have bibles)

Water Necromancy
Each life form is supposed to have a certain amount of water cár’áll in it. If you reastablish the proper amount you will raise the dead. For example; If you water a plant that appears dead it will become green again, getting the water out of someones lungs so they don't drowned.

Air Necromancy
Air cár’áll must be in a constant state of motion maintaining a dynamic equilibrium. If this process is broken, as happens in suffocation, death occurs. They would have spells that move air in and out of the mouth and nose to reestablish a state of motion and dynamic equilibrium.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 22 August 2007, 17:52:13
All 4 elemental schools would have necromancy but they would all look at it different.

Fire Necromancer
the inner fire of any life must be maintained or it will die to raise the dead you need to reignite the fire.

Earth Necromancy
has the philosophy of "Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return" (Genesis 3:19) ( I know thats out of context and Caelereth doesn't have bibles)

Water Necromancy
Each life form is supposed to have a certain amount of water cár’áll in it. If you reastablish the proper amount you will raise the dead. For example; If you water a plant that appears dead it will become green again, getting the water out of someones lungs so they don't drowned.

Air Necromancy
Air cár’áll must be in a constant state of motion maintaining a dynamic equilibrium. If this process is broken, as happens in suffocation, death occurs. They would have spells that move air in and out of the mouth and nose to reestablish a state of motion and dynamic equilibrium.

Necromany does not make something alive again, only the illusion that it is alive. Earth is more on physical attributes of the body.

About the water thingy, hmmmm.... According to your example, water is more on healing rather than reviving...

Air: The undead does not need to breathe...

I think necromancy is brining the illusion of life in the dead things right? Exactly what makes  something alive?


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 22 August 2007, 22:49:30
Necromancy, as I understand the modern interpretation from Twen, is the process of giving animation to a corpse through magical means.  Thus, if you did wish to use wind, it would require the application of the property of motion.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Gaffin on 22 August 2007, 22:50:53
The 7 known conditions to life on earth are:

Homeostasis[b/]: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.



Now, an undead being cannot maintain a constant internal state by itself, so it does not posess the first characteristic.

Zombies still posess their basic physical bodies, so they are still composed of cells.

In the traditional sense, zombies do need to eat to survive (braaaaainnnnss...), but I'm not sure how Santharia handles this. I'll assume that they don't for convenience. :)

It does not grow at all.

They cannot adapt to their environment.

Since they are animated and thinking in a sense, they can react to most stimuli.

Not sure about reproduction, but I've never seen two zombies shag before, so I'll say this is a no too.

If one posesses all of those traits, one is considered to be living, so I don't think the zombies are living, just animated.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 22 August 2007, 23:01:14
eh....gaffin, while that whole cell thing is very scientific and appreciated, you have to remember that Zombies aren't living and, for the most part, are only temporary creations.  You'd have to ask Twen about exact details, but the way I see it, by providing animation to the corpse, not only to you get it moving physically, you jump-start some necessary functions for survival.  While a zombie doesn't need a heart or a stomach and stuff like that, muscles would need to be semi-functional.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Gaffin on 22 August 2007, 23:31:59
I agree, but the point was that zombies aren't "living" in the popular sense.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 23 August 2007, 03:10:00
Fire??? I think Twen told me about the property of fire dancing. That the fire is somewhat alive... maybe thats it is used by necromancer?


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 23 August 2007, 03:11:39
Necromancy, as I understand the modern interpretation from Twen, is the process of giving animation to a corpse through magical means.  Thus, if you did wish to use wind, it would require the application of the property of motion.

Necromancy as it is made is not the explicit activity of animating a corpse. That is a property of it and the most commonly assumed trait, but Necromancy itself is "divination through communicating with the dead".

Reanimating a corpse is exactly that--reanimating a corpse. It is not the main process involved with Necromancy, only a part of it. Necromancy is much broader than that.



Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 23 August 2007, 03:13:27
Fire??? I think Twen told me about the property of fire dancing. That the fire is somewhat alive... maybe thats it is used by necromancer?

Yes, Fire is the magic used for reanimating a corpse. But it doesn't make a corpse 'alive', just animated.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 23 August 2007, 03:17:01
Yes that is why I said, "somewhat alive" but how does this exactly work?


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 23 August 2007, 03:20:09
Yes that is why I said, "somewhat alive" but how does this exactly work?

By reanimating the muscles to respond to outside stimula (the caster's own will) at lower levels. At higher levels, the mage can activate both the animation of the muscles as well as the raw emotions of the mind (this will create angry and violent, but braindead, undead. The whole 'braaaains' eating zombie thing). With the spirit part activated, the undead will have basic mental impulses (emotions), and thus will be able to respond to some minor verbal commands.



Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 23 August 2007, 03:23:53
so what if the dead guy has no brain anymore? then does that mean that he cannot activate the raw emotions?

Again... How does fire animate a corpse? A fire in a candle is somewhat alive... is this the property of fire tha makes something "somewhat alive"?


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Gaffin on 23 August 2007, 03:42:07
Shansi, you've been told that you can't think of magic in an earthen sense. It's exactly that - it's magic, so it can't exist on earth. Seeing how Caelereth is its own planet anyway, this doesn't even apply practically. One of fire's attributes is animation, because of how the flames dance, and how lively fire is.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 23 August 2007, 03:43:50
so what if the dead guy has no brain anymore? then does that mean that he cannot activate the raw emotions?

Again... How does fire animate a corpse? A fire in a candle is somewhat alive... is this the property of fire tha makes something "somewhat alive"?

A fire in a candle is in no way 'alive'. Santharia is not based on real life physics, what determines 'life' here is not necessarily the same basics that determine 'life' on Earth, at least according to Ximaxian magic. It is the basic structure of the element. Fire activates the emotional side of the soul, as well as animating the physical side of the body. Fire is like the heart, or the battery and engine of a car, or a reactor.

As for brain... this is a physical element of the body. Physical elements are based on Earth, and I am not sure how much the physical elements apply or are even necessary when dealing with magic here. The spiritual aspect (emotions and rational thought... fire and wind) do not require the brain to function, as far as I believe, the elements provide those aspects, not the brain. Fire could also provide raw emotions to a rock with sufficient skill.



Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 23 August 2007, 03:46:35
got it!

Thanks fox...


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Ruil Mallister on 21 September 2007, 03:59:57
Also on the topic of the Earth School, the last time I tried to get Ruil approved, because he knew two earth spells, he was rejected several times, simply because the spells were outdated.

Are Break and Solidify still considered "outdated", and thus unable to be used in the RPG?


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 September 2007, 05:33:35
No those particular spells are pretty much up to date.  There is a list somewhere of the earth spells needing rework.  Mainly, if you stay away from the Necromancy stuff you should be fine.  For everything else; everything written by me and Pikel is up to date along with some of Silfer's spells.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Fox on 21 September 2007, 08:33:17
Also on the topic of the Earth School, the last time I tried to get Ruil approved, because he knew two earth spells, he was rejected several times, simply because the spells were outdated.

Are Break and Solidify still considered "outdated", and thus unable to be used in the RPG?

I personally recommend not to refer nor utilize the spell lists on the website when creating characters at the RPG. As even if all the spells were up to date, they'd be a very small representative portion of the effects that can be accomplished with magic.


Learning the way the system works and then making up your own spells and designs on the spot as necessary is more appropriate, IMO. Unlike traditional magic systems, ours isn't built around spell lists, instead, we have a solid system that determines the inner workings. So if you know the system, you can do anything you want, pretty much.


Title: Re: Earth School -- is any process being done here?
Post by: Ruil Mallister on 21 September 2007, 13:25:59
Oh okay. I did my research when I created Ruil originally, so I don't suppose the way earth magic works has changed much, but I'll read up on it again anyway.

Thank you for your answers, both Drasil and Fox. :D