Santharian Development

Organization and General Discussions => Development Master Plans => Topic started by: Mina on 28 December 2007, 18:28:38



Title: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 28 December 2007, 18:28:38
Here's the thread for discussing the Xaramon Master Plan. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Curgan on 29 July 2008, 15:42:16
The main core is ready as I see. Now all these information should be developed and elaborated. The topography is the easiest part while the political and social evolution is the hardest. My proposal is to start from the easy and move to the more difficult parts


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Ringan on 19 December 2008, 04:13:20
Hi Mina,

I am loving what you have done.  I like the flavours and style, attention to detail, the breath of life if you will.

I am just going to comment briefly here on population, and that only in a rough way (a more exact study is needed to do this right).

First, I think there is an inconsistency in legends on the map.  Based on the accuracy of the Manthria map (this is the arbiter of all legends), the distance between Cioso and Marcogg is the same as that between Ximax and Horth, about 600 strals.  If I did my calculations right on your map, it is 450 strals.  Anyhow, these sorts of numbers need to be made accurate, because the difference becomes pretty significant working out populations.

The total area of the entire province is about 1,000,000 square strals (based on the standards noted above).

Assuming most of this land is not agrarian, in fact, it is not even rich hunting lands (e.g., the steps) it would at best qualify as what I called Very Low Yield land supporting about 1 person (or dwarf or orc or whatever) per square stral.  In addition, we can ask how much land where is of a higher status, the Low Yield kind.  Looking at your map, I am throwing darts in the dark, but I would guess 1/4, and most of it on the peninsula, south coast and lake region (in roughly equal propoprtions).  At 6 persons / stral square, we get another 1.25 million in habitants (noting that we already counted the same land as Very Low Yield, so we are adding 5 persons /sq.s.).
To this we can add some proper mixed agrarian land, including around Ximex, the lake region again and parts of the southern coast.  How much of its is really developed is an important part of the equation, but let us suppose 10% of the Low Yield land is developed, or in other words 10% of 1/4 = 2.5%.  To this, we might find another .5% of land in the Very Low Yield regions for a subtotal of 3% of 1000000sq.s. = 30,000sq.s. which supports 30 persons per sq.s., but which we count as 24 since we already counted 6, so upwards 7.2 millions.  Actually, this probably is about right given the likely HIGHLY fertile regions of the south coast (making the city of Cael a good candidate for mega city).  If you want to push it higher, there is room - this is a province between 7 and 8 times the size of England or more than 50% larger than France.  Anyhow, this quick and dirty calculation finds about 1+1.25+7.2 millions or call it 9.5 millions, better, let's call it 10 million!  France may have had as many as 20 million in the 14th century prior to the plagues, so this would be low, but then France was much richer than Xaramon, which reminds one a little on eastern Russia with those huge steps.  Still, there is room to increase the population a few more million at the top end if you want it big.  You could also half the agrarian land and force it to have a population of 5,000,000, and this might work a little better given your cities listed.  In any case, see the calcualtions below assuming 10,000,000 pop.

If we go with roughtly 10,000,000, and we work with somewhat ahistoric 67% are agrarian and able to support the other 33%, this leaves you with a whopping 3,3 million urbanites in the towns and cities.  Half will populate the large village/small town category between 500 and 2500 or so persons. A quarter will take care of the rest of the towns to 8000 pop or so.  The last quarter then fills the cities.  So, in this (again quick and dirty on a napkin kind of calculation), we have:

50% x 3.3mil./1500 = 11,000 market village/towns with average 1500 persons (yep! A lot to fit on the map!!)

25% x 3.3mil./5000 = 167 towns avg. pop. 5000 (yep, still a really large number to fit on the map!!)

25% x 3.3mil. = 833,000 for the cities greater than 8000.  With the first 130,000 for Cael, that leaves 700,000.  If the cities average 35,000, this means there should be another 20 full fledged cities.  Yes! Even this is a lot to fit on the map, but this can probably be done.  Anyhow, it is more than you have at the moment, but here is a rough guide to get the numbers about right:

Not counting Cael, assume 2/3 of the 20 (=14) are less than 35,000 but of course greater than 8,000.  Then the other 6 large cities, if they increase gradually at a bit more than 35,000 towards a biggest one that is less than 65,000, the numbers should work out.

So.... does that help?  Please do not hesitate to ask if I you would like to do something more exact.  Also, getting this system to work in Manthria has proven very difficult, not least because there is such a paucity of the first category of large village/small towns to accomdate the relatively small cities there.  Also, I have not checked my work super carefully here...


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Bard Judith on 19 December 2008, 13:47:30
'more exact'?  What are you, channeling Mr. Spock here?   Honestly, down to one decimal place is quite an acceptable level of accuracy, considering Santharia has yet to invent the decimal... :D 

  Generally we round things off (try not to faint) and say things like "He's about two and a half fores tall" (fores being the length of one's forearm) or "I'll take a half-heb of that fresh butter, please..." and hope the shopkeeper will give good measure.   

As regards population, I think what most of us have preci'ed from your scholarly calculations (and for which kudos, in all sincerity) is that we don't have enough villages.  Need more people!  Need more places!   This will make Artimidor happy, as his bete-blanche is Place entries, and I must say I'm rather fond of them myself.    The issue here is that the Compendium is an ever-growing, changing thing, and what makes it in are mostly things of note - places and beasts and foodstuffs that are worthy of recording.   

BRAINSTORM/SUGGESTION:   Mini-entry proposal! 

In order to accommodate this new concept, we would have to change our requirements for entries, or at the very least be happy with one-line or one-paragraph descriptions of towns - as you see happening on the largescale Manthrian map.   Something like this?  :

"Fourstrals is a small village of about twenty-five families, in the middle of the main sheep district.  Its primary products are washed, unspun wool, cured mutton, and undyed yarn.  It trades mostly with Whutt, Hittlesford,  Deaf Yow, and the other small towns around it, though markets are held seasonally for the travelling merchants with whom they have struck bargains for so many bales.  They are, like most of their ilk, self-sufficient for basic foodstuffs, tending their own community gardens, but are happy to purchase the luxuries of life from peddlars or merchant caravans every three or four months.  Nothing of note has ever happened historically in Fourstrals.  The only remotely well-known figure to ever have been born in Fourstrals was the Yeoman Quartermaster of Duke XXX's household, a skilled fighting man who effectively put down the street rebellion in Marcogg in 1539.   Fourstrals is believed to have been in existence since about three centuries before Santhros."


Such mini-entries would serve two purposes: they would fill in the map and give us population figures that are more to scale, but they would also help set up and fill in the networks of trade and finance that are still sorely under-developed.  Without a great deal of effort, people could enjoy creating these small communities, making them interesting but not necessarily hugely significant historically or politically.




Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 19 December 2008, 18:37:27
HMM, yes, no, I mean, it is the same as with the Manthrian little places and descriptions. The one who wants to develop the villages has to create then a sheep producing community, when he would like to do something different. The location of the place appeals to him, the name as well, but wool-production? It will be referred to already in other entries. Why not just set names and villages on any new map Art creates like on the Manthrian map? With only  important ones "defined"

Well, but maybe that is just my always latent wish to have still all options open.


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Bard Judith on 19 December 2008, 19:18:47
No!  No, NOT the same as the small descriptions on the Manthrian map, which are seen as 'placeholders' to be developed at a later time.   That's exactly what I don't want to have happen. :(

My point here, Talia, is that there will be no such person as someone who 'wants to develop the villages' but 'has to create' in a certain way.    Anyone who's interested is, as always, free to create a village from scratch, as whatever he or she wants it to be, within reason  - but such villages are not being created, partly because of the complexity and importance placed upon 'place entries', and because small villages aren't important enough to have that much information created about them.

My proposal is to create a second template for place development: a 'brief' or 'mini-template' for small communities. 

This would mean that developers can create a village any way they want, but in brief, because that's all that is necessary. Anything larger than a village can meet the regular template, because there will be enough importance and information to fill in the template. Anything using the 'brief template' is not up for further development - it is adequate: this is what I am proposing.  AND it becomes easy to create a place to meet the needs of another type of entry without having to either put it on the 'Unfinished Entries list' to linger for years, or spend a great deal of time and effort creating a full-fledged (regular) Places Entry which may be done out of duty, not love or ability.

  To take my example above, that IS all there is to say about "Fourstrals".  It's a sheep-farming community - good!  Done!  No more NEEDS to be said, or developed.  In fact, why would anyone be interested in developing it further, when there are plenty of options to create a new village, with its own focus, from nothing?  So there is no 'has to create' situation - this proposal actually frees people to make more place entries. 

   BUT we all benefit from knowing that Fourstrals exists:  the next time someone makes a receipt about how to cook mutton, she can find the names of a few mutton-making areas to cross-reference to.  "The famous Fourstrals mutton is recommended, as it has the tenderest texture of any young lamb available..."    Or in describing a weavers' centre, to know that the workers obtain their wool from Deaf Yow and Whutt, sending back bolts of finished cloth.    Or stating that New Santhala is fed, among many other streams of imports and commerce, from the green fields around Hittlesford and Fourstrals.  Slowly, the map fills in, with the maximum of detail necessary to do so, and the trade and commerce thrive with it.


Hope that makes my proposal clearer: it actually OPENS options, not closes them!  :)



Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 19 December 2008, 20:24:23
Again, hmm, yes, no ;)

I see what you mean and I had thought earlier already, that we could need some short beast/plant descriptions , that not all has to be developed as much as we have it now. However,

- Where would you place these villages? Would they show on the (Manthrian) map at all? Or don't they need a fixed location? Say, your Fourstral (why this name ;) ) is situated on the southern slope of the Rimmerin Ring near the Silverrock Warden? But no more precise location is given?

I think your idea is cool and I'm kind of (positive) excited, but  I'm concerned about any not yet discovered disadvantages as well. I'm feeling somehow unwell with the idea without being able to pin down why.

Maybe we should split this discussion up and do a new thread?


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 19 December 2008, 21:52:16
Ah, thanks for clearing that up Judith! Personally, I am %100 for the idea. It would make life much easier and clear up time to do more fun/important stuff.

For instance I've been carrying several dozen Krean villages/towns in my head for years, which need to be pinned down (as "production" settlements they are necessary to work out trade networks) but are the sort of places on which I have nothing more to say. A full-scale place entry would be like using a hammer to crack a nut and a regional overview incorporating them all at once is too much of an effort... So nothing gets done.

Though I think I know what is troubling you Talia: I would not want this new format to be abused or regarded by newcomers as the easy way out for getting more entries under their belt etc. I don't want to wake up one morning and find that a hundred senseless villages have mushroomed all over the Twin Kingdom like fungi after rainfall.

I will not suggest restricting these new mini-entries to members+. However, we can state that: (1) they are not meant to be an excuse for laziness and an unwillingness to learn about Santharia + (2) as a rule of thumb (rather than an absolute, unbending rule) mini-entries should be used as supplements to a normal place-entry. A bit like appendices to dissertations- the information needs to be mentioned for the sake of completeness but you don't want it in the main body of your argument. Suppose I'm writing an entry on a major/interesting Krean town which specializes in textiles, and using Ringan's calculations I realize that I need about 2-3 more villages to import food from and say a few smallish towns from which to import dyes, cloth etc. Being able to deal with these through such mini-entries would be a godsend for development. Have you ever found that you have said everything you want to say but there still remains three more sections like "flora/fauna/myths" that need to "filled in"? How much like a chore development then becomes!

Re locations: Hmm... I fear I don't really understand your concern here. Can you please elaborate? Presumably one would describe the territory/location as usual; if there is a detailed map - like Mantharia - one can mark it there and then Arti can make the necessary changes upon integration. Those of us who are not lucky enough to have access to such a well laid-out map have to make do with a rough verbal description and hope we are more or less in the right ball-park anyway. F.e. we all know - ought to know... - that Sihitara was the largest Ancient Krean metropolis, yet I dare say no reader actually knows where it is on the map...


PS: If a new thread is started, please feel free to move this post there. Sorry for hi-jacking your thread Mina!


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 19 December 2008, 23:52:59
Yes, Coren, you pinned it down!

It is a good idea to link them to major entries, could well apply for beasts and plants as well. These could even be developed later, if there is somebody who wants to do it.
My question about these little villages and hamlets is following:
Will be there more villages and hamlets than on the Manthria map already and will they show up there or not?


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Mina on 20 December 2008, 04:02:58
Thanks for the comments, Ringan.  I'll look over them again when I'm less sleepy.   :)

Unfortunately, I don't think discussions and comments are supposed to be posted in masterplan threads themselves.  Could someone with mod powers here move them to the discussion thread instead? 


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Bard Judith on 20 December 2008, 07:34:27
I know, Mina - very sorry!  We simply hijacked your thread and ran off with it... (blushes).

Ringan's points actually apply to most of Santharia, if not necessarily the northern and southernmost parts of Sarvonia, so we should have split the thread/moved out then.   My apologies for distracting from Xaramon!  Let's ask Art to create a new thread for Population Discussions.....


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Ringan on 21 December 2008, 23:23:00
Hi Mina,

Yes, I see - sorry to post that stuff here.  Maybe a moderator can move those bits to the population thread.

I hope it was helpful for perspective! 

I have done some further work along these lines and more reading and will post some ideas later (but elsewhere).

Best
Ring'a'ling

I had a dream I was a gnomish accountant, and then awoke a human philosopher; now I am not sure whether I am in fact a gnomish accountant dreaming I am a human philosopher!


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Mina on 22 December 2008, 15:24:57
No problem.   :)  Since the posts haven't been moved yet, I'll post my reply here so it's less confusing.  

Quote
First, I think there is an inconsistency in legends on the map.  Based on the accuracy of the Manthria map (this is the arbiter of all legends), the distance between Cioso and Marcogg is the same as that between Ximax and Horth, about 600 strals.  If I did my calculations right on your map, it is 450 strals.  Anyhow, these sorts of numbers need to be made accurate, because the difference becomes pretty significant working out populations.
Um, well, I don't really know which is right either.  It should be the same scale as the Manthria map though, since it was cut out from a map of Santharia that Arti enlarged to the same scale as the Manthria map.  On the other hand, I've sometimes shifted things slightly from where they were on the kingdom map, taking the houses as just approximations of where the settlements are located, which might also explain the inconsistencies you've found.  (By the way, I don't have a ruler with me now to make accurate measurements, but it seems to me both distances should only be slightly over 300 strals).  

Well, let's see...
Yes, I also figured that most of the fertile areas are near the coasts and the lakes.  So I guess I was right to put most of the cities in those areas then?  What about along the river?  I figured that it could support some small cities, especially since it makes importing food easier, but I'm not entirely certain.  

I'm not too sure whether 10,000,000 or 5,000,000 is a better figure for the population.  10,000,000 would leave a lot of room for stuff, but I do not want the population to be too large compared to that of other provinces either; as you pointed out, much of its land isn't very good.  

As for Ximax itself, what do you think would be a good figure for its population, and that of the peninsula it's on?  Or, for that matter, each of the regions?

Or perhaps exact numbers can wait, since it seems it would depend on what's decided for other parts of the kingdom too.  If it turns out more cities are needed for it to be realistic, maybe we could convert some of the towns into cities.  

Anyway, this looks like a good start.   :)

Quote
I had a dream I was a gnomish accountant, and then awoke a human philosopher; now I am not sure whether I am in fact a gnomish accountant dreaming I am a human philosopher!
Hmm, has someone been reading Zhuangzi?   :lol:


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Ringan on 23 December 2008, 02:51:02
Hi Mina,

Well, I will write here too since the thread is not yet moved (I hope these messages are not too heavy for the moderator to move...)

Population:  I will look, but somewhere one of the aged sages here made the strong claim and with some authority that Ciaso to Marcogg is 600 strals.  This is an important number since 2x distance --> 4x area --> 4x population.

Yes, I like the 5,000,000 number more too. 

The problem is not so much generally with sufficient cities as with enough mid-sized towns.  But I am inclined to agree that better would be to omit small villages from the map unless they are part of an adventure, and note anything bigger than 800 or so with a cottage, about 1 cottage per 1000.  If it is a walled town, use houses starting at 2000-8000 (avg. 5000 and represented by 1 house). Then another house is maybe the 8000 to 22000 range (avg 15000). A thirdhouse gets you into the large city range of 22000 to 34000 (avg 28000).  After than use an entirely image for the big cities.  Just an idea... but something like this, then set it as a universal convention for everyone accross continents and provinces.

I like the way you distributed population.  If maybe half the pop is in the south, a quarter is at the lakes, an eighth on the Ximax peninsula and an eighth spread through the other regions.  Something like that is my guess.  I imagine pop density on the peninsula to be an average between the south high and middle empty regions.  As for Ximax, I wouldnt think too big - Oxford and Cambridge are both much smaller than London and suits their atmosphere.  Also, it is not on a coast and not in an extremely agriculturally rich area:  how about 20000?

Yes, Zhuangzi, though of course it might be that I am neither... just a dream?  Maybe your dream? If so, I promise to try to be a nice dream! Oh and thank you for dreaming  :)

Bestest
Ringan


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 23 December 2008, 02:57:45
Hmmm... perhaps a population chlorapleth would not be out of the question here... that may help with the heaviness of the messages ;)


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Mina on 24 December 2008, 15:53:55
Well, I don't really plan to list more than a few of the non-city settlements, and even then just the more notable ones.  Otherwise, I suspect there might not be much room for anything else.   :lol:  We can just assume that enough of them exist to support the cities we have, no?   :)

Hmm, I don't know if 20,000 is enough for Ximax.  As I said in the other thread, it was historically either independent or quite autonomous, depending on the period, controlling the whole peninsula (or at least the parts easily accessible to humans).  So, one of my concerns is that it, or at least the area it controls, has enough people that it can field a strong enough army to hold its lands.  It's not so bad during those times it was part of Centorauria, but even then, it's at the far end of Centoraurian territory, and in any case the mages might not want to be too dependent on outside protection.  Perhaps there is some way we could increase the population?  I did put a river there, if it helps. 

Chlorapleth?  What's that?   :veryconfused:


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 25 December 2008, 00:56:57
Its a map that uses color to indicate something- you know those population density maps, with the cities colored purple and the bush, or the outback, or he tundra all pale yellow or grey?
It would essentially be a more obvious visual representation of population density.


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Ringan on 26 December 2008, 07:12:17
Not sure what the plural for chlorapleth is (nice word! thanks for the education!)

Ximax: even if you doubled the population, traditionally you can only count on 5 to 10% of the population to fight (another 20% maybe in untrained militia - i.e., every abled bodied male of age), so you have only added 2000 soldiers tops, which is a drop in the bucket so far as controlling the province goes.  Great empires usually have something else holding them together other than brute force - e.g., the Holy Roman Empire had a common heritage and church, while others had roads and mercantile infrastructure. Yet others have had cultural sway. Anyhow, most of the soldiers are likely from the country in any case, since there is where most of the population can be found.

My guess is that the combination of awe inspiring pyrotechnical illusions combined with a fair amount of genuine magical power for the hordes who remain unimpressed coupled with a really first rate diplomatic corp that keeps the various factions balanced against each other... most the last really!  A natural reason for Ximax having the leadership role in the province can be summed up in "who else could do it?"  I can well imagine the South Coast (probably the most powerful region) and the North Lake districts never accepting the other as sovereign over them. Add the nomadic central tribes with as a third, and there is no way they would be willing to bow to one of the other.  But a little scholarly town out on the peninsula, with just enough force and power to be impressive, and quite defensible itself as history showed, but of a culture and kind quite different, one who was also not bent on micromanaging the different peoples, but primarily interested in preventing large scale war and maintaining general order throughout the province... All the different peoples of the province might very willingly bow to them as a first amongst equals.

Sometimes it is the small and the passive that can have the most authority and control.  Just my two silver pennies.

May the ever evolving dream shower love, riches and joy upon you this Xmas.
Ringan


Title: Some legend, distance and population notes
Post by: Mina on 26 December 2008, 14:48:33
No, no, not controlling the whole province.   :lol:  I meant just the peninsula it's on, which should be much easier than controlling the whole province, especially since most of the peninsula is mountains that are pretty much inaccessible to humans anyway.  Historically, it was mostly a fairly autonomous part of Centorauria, and there were at least two times I can remember when it was independent; once when Centorauria broke up, and another time when Centorauria was weakened by a war and the Ximaxians for some reason decided to seek independence.  So, I'm more looking for how it might be able to hold its historical territory (more or less the area in plum on the map), especially during those times it was independent. 

As for why it's the provincial capital, I've outlined that as well.  It's pretty much what you have mentioned, though I think not as active in governing the province (that's mostly what the Dukes do). 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Wren on 03 January 2009, 23:48:47
Hi Mina

I'm going to pick up the Shivering woods and the Vontron bring them into line with your master plan. It would be good to fix in our minds what the climate of the region is before I start.

The Votron Entry talks about the region being temperate - no snow, but storms in winter.  However, Horth is on a steppe land, with good fertile grazing. That doesn't really make sense as Stepplands are normally where there is there is not enough water for tree growth, but not dry enough to be forest.

There are no major features to explain why storms would reach the forest and no further. No good reason for a rain shadow effect. It makes far more sense for the forest to be fed by underground streams that feed and flow from the Aerlian lakes to the north. Eleven forests can have slightly different micro climates so happy for it to continue to be slightly warmer than surroundings, with no snow. Would just take the storms away.

XImax reads: The temperature here varies immensely with the seasons. From the blistering inferno of the summer, to the chill breezes of autumn, to the frigid, icy winters, and to the unceasing deluge that is spring; Ximax is never entirely comfortable. Still, a certain peace is always present. Though some of the guilds maintain boats for the typical spring downpours, there is a rare calmness in falling rain in Ximax. Likewise, in oppressive heat or cold, the mind almost literally flees to higher thought. And though the weather in autumn is not particularly pleasant, the unique beauty of the ripening fields and orchards cannot be denied...

Typical Xarl never makes things easy! But its a great entry and I'd like to keep it, it kinda makes sense against the idea of a continental steppe.

Does anyone have any input into the Climate thing please before I get started?


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 05 January 2009, 16:51:40
Hi! 

Hmm, I'm not very sure about the climate of the region myself, aside from the obvious (eg. steppes being dry); I don't think it's been agreed yet what Santharia's climate is like. 

Quote
However, Horth is on a steppe land, with good fertile grazing. That doesn't really make sense as Stepplands are normally where there is there is not enough water for tree growth, but not dry enough to be forest.
Yeah.  I was thinking that maybe Horth could be at the edges of the steppe though, which is perhaps not as dry.  But mostly I'm just guessing. 

Quote
There are no major features to explain why storms would reach the forest and no further. No good reason for a rain shadow effect. It makes far more sense for the forest to be fed by underground streams that feed and flow from the Aerlian lakes to the north.
Just guessing again here, but maybe it has to do with distance, so the air runs out of moisture not too far from the forest?  I don't really know enough about geography to know if that could actually happen though.  Otherwise, yeah, removing the storms might be the best option. 

Would it be okay if instead of underground streams we have rivers on the surface instead, that link the lakes to the sea?  I'd already added one, but that can be changed if there are any objections.  Was originally just looking for a way for water to leave the lakes, and didn't think of underground streams. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 06 January 2009, 06:09:28
Quote
However, Horth is on a steppe land, with good fertile grazing. That doesn't really make sense as Stepplands are normally where there is there is not enough water for tree growth, but not dry enough to be forest.
Well, not necessarily. After all, the middle east is only about half desert- the rest is steppe, and this is the region kn own as the birth of agricultural, and now dependent agriculturally on pastoral nomadism, or nomadic herding. So a steppe can still be good grazing land, maybe more suited for a slightly nomadic tribe. Maybe for this climate you could look at the "Stan" countries? Krygistan, Tajikstan, Uzbekistan, etc?


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 06 January 2009, 06:28:51
Well, I thought I would help to solve the ever returning question how the weather is like in certain areas with writing that general climate entry for Santharia. Local variations possible of course. I thought, that if older, already existing entries are due for a revision, that they cautiously could be adjusted to that general picture, but nobody seems to either notice or remember that entry. Why only has nobody objected when I wrote it?


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 06 January 2009, 11:30:50
I do remember it.  But there was that thread not too long ago discussing climate again, so I'm not sure how the situation is now. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 06 January 2009, 17:27:19
I don't know either *sigh*


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Wren on 08 January 2009, 05:36:20
Its not an objection to your entry Talia - more an attempt to bring the individual entries into some semblance of order. all the entries in the region are very different so it would be appropriate, as you say to adjust them slightly to form a more cohesive whole.

But I'm anxious not to go forging ahead and make life dificult for a more cohesive climate entry or for Mina's master plan.

Nsiki: I'm not arguing its not good grazing land or agricultural land. Its on the map. It needs to stay.

I'm arguing that we need to find a good reason for the steppe to be there in the first place and that will require a certain amount of adjustment of the surrounding entries in the province to achieve it. The problem with the "Stan" countries: Krygistan, Tajikstan, Uzbekistan as examples is that they are continental interior Steppe.

Actually to be fair, that's the problem with the map. See - it can only be caused by Continental interior patterns if the prevailing wind comes from the east. If thats the case, then there is no good explanation for storms as the lakes really aren't big enough to act as a convection water source for them. And there's no mountains to explain a rain shadow effect if they are coming from the west.

But then I'm using a real world model. And thats not what we're dealing with :) So I really need an understanding of where the current santharian model of climate is at the moment and that's something I don't yet have time to really get to grips with. Hence the question! How detailed is that - do we have tides and currents or is it more general?



Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 15 February 2010, 22:41:46
Hi Mina!

I am interested in perhaps writing up a Places entry on the Arwood. It would give me a chance to perhaps start some development on Arvins, his "temples" and clerics. I am not sure if we have any Arwoods defined anywhere in Santharia either. Did you have any ideas on this?


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 15 February 2010, 23:14:04
Not really.  I remember that I got the idea for putting an Arwood there from reading some Kyranian history, which involved Arvins and a forest somewhere in the area, and figuring that something like that probably made it an Arwood.  That's about it, I think. 

Well, maybe it could be one of the most important Arwoods in Santharia, since I don't recall any other forest being associated with such an important event.  But really, most of the places I came up with are not much more than placeholders at the moment, so I don't really mind what's done with them, as long as they make sense somehow.   :)


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 22 May 2011, 04:48:00
The following quote is from the Xaramon Master Plan created by Mina, the Places and Geography post of the Masterplan can be found here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,12194.msg144731.html#msg144731).

Quote
Blue
  • Needs a name
  • A fairly typical duchy, by Santharian standards (but less so when compared with the other duchies in Xaramon)
  • The heart of the former Kyranian kingdom, except for the eastern and southern portions, which were Eyelian (at least at 482 b.S.)

Caelum:
  • A very large city (population about 100,000) located at the mouth of the Dorashi river
  • Known as El'Dorash very, very long ago (the Dorashi river apparently got its name from it)
  • Was the capital of Kyrania
  • Was and still is an important trading city, probably largely due to its location at the mouth of the Dorashi River
  • Also houses the biggest temple of Eyasha (see here), making it possibly quite important in religion as well

Naios:
  • Founded as a fortified town on a hill near the Wind Bay between 933 and 806 b.S. by Aprag Naios Dereswungen, and possibly named after him as well
  • Has since grown into a city

Blue City 2:
  • Probably has a fairly important naval base of some sort; that position looks relatively strategic
  • Needs a name, obviously

Blue Cities 1, 3, and 4:
  • A few more cities located along the coast, no plans beyond that for now
  • Need names too

As my Santharian kingdom focus is in and around the Kyranians, this seemed to be the most relevant duchy for me to focus on. :D

I was doing some thinking on this, and was wondering wihether a Duchy name that suggested the Kyranian roots of the Duchy would be appropriate. Through reading the Kyranian men tribal entry on site, this seems to be the area that is described there as being strongly Kyranian, with limited Centoraurian influences. Some suggestions I had for it are
  • Thromgol - based on 'Thromgolin' the name that the monarch of the Kyranian tribe had to secure within the first 10 years of their reign.
  • Kyresk - the process by which younger members of a noble family could challenge the current heir of the family for the title of heir of that family
  • Gilden - one of the kings of Kyrania of old, known as one of the scions of Thromgolin, who improved on the castle and who seems to have ruled jointly (or at the very least in consultation) with his two younger brothers.
  • Aborona - the name given by Gil's younger brothers to the lands of Kyrania


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 22 May 2011, 05:04:50
I vote Gilden. :)


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 22 May 2011, 05:36:50
If you can work it into the history somehow: Kyresk (since it echoes Kyrania/Kyranians so nicely)
Otherwise: Gilden.


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 23 September 2011, 05:56:30
Just to confirm (so that it doesn't get missed with it being in the other thread and all) ... I've gone with Gilden as the name for the blue Duchy in Xaramon Province. That is the duchy centred around the former Kyranian kingdom lands.

Also, from the masterplan, I believe that Rayne has developed those lakes that are mentioned as needing development. When you get the chance, Mina you might like to remove those from the things that need development.

Many thanks

Dek


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 23 September 2011, 13:44:45
Yup, I already knew about those, but thanks for the reminder.   :)


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 02 October 2011, 19:02:36
Here's the new map I'm working on.  I'm wondering about the rivers.  Are there too many?  Too few?  I feel like there aren't enough rivers, but I don't really know where to put them.  Also, is the river system in the Ximaxian peninsula alright? 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 03 October 2011, 06:20:30
Hi Mina,

had a short look at your map. I think, that the rivers on the peninsula of Xaramon are a bit too regularly looking. Let two tributaries merge or something like this. I know, the plain is described as quite flat, but maybe there are still some smaller hills which would bend them?

The rest of the province could need another river, it looks a bit empty. Where are towns? Villages? Maybe you should give them some water transport also.

I'll add two pics of the rivers of Germany. Maybe they give you an idea or two :)
But generally: as you like to have it!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Deutschland_topo.png/800px-Deutschland_topo.png


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 03 October 2011, 14:56:11
Hmm, I thought that the peninsula had a fairly even slope, which was why I made the tributaries nearly parallel with each other.  I'll think about it.

The towns and villages will be added later.  What would be a good place for an additional river?  I'm thinking the northern part of the province, but the more plausible routes for rivers seem to have little to do with historical borders in the region.  I would expect borders to follow natural boundaries like rivers at least some of the time.  Hmm, maybe I can work something out. 

Thanks for the maps.   :)


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 25 November 2011, 16:10:09
New rivers; fainter lines indicate smaller rivers.  I might have overdid it a little.  :buck:

Redrew almost everything else too. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 30 November 2011, 13:20:40
My weak eyes! Forgive me, Mina, but all the rivers look faint to me. I can barely make any of them out! Is there a way to dark the lines?

Do your larger rivers have names, as of yet? After all our wonderful name-generation exercise in Vardynn, I'm quite willing to help develop names for these, though they may be of Kyranian origin.


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 30 November 2011, 23:19:04
I've darkened the rivers a little.  Do they look better now?  Political divisions and cities have also been added, although I'm not entirely sure about them yet. 

The only named rivers so far are the Dorashi river and Wavewand river.  I certainly don't mind some help with naming the rest. 

Since you're working on Vardynn now, perhaps you might consider adding more details to the Aerelian Lakes after we're done with the resources?  Right now they have no outlet, and aside from the two rivers I added, nothing feeding water into them either. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alır) on 01 December 2011, 14:00:14
Ah, yes, I can see them a little better now. I have to close up on them to see exactly where they are and where they go, but that's all right; if you made them any darker or larger, they wouldn't be realistic! Did you have any ideas for names of rivers, or meanings, or histories?

Do the Aerelian Lakes need an outlet or a source? Perhaps they were originally created by a meteor shower that create massive craters in the earth that became filled with precipitation, or by a powerful mage's spell mishap? I suppose there might be a small river snaking from the Upper Fores and eventually into the ocean. Did you have any thoughts on this?


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 01 December 2011, 16:36:42
Perhaps so.  It feels strange to me that such large lakes could have precipitation as the only, or even main, source of water, but I don't really know a lot about how such things work. 

I haven't thought about the rivers much.  Mostly, I was just trying to get them to feel right. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 02 December 2011, 09:55:19
Hi Mina, if you aren't aware of it, Australia has a large inland lake ... lake Eiyre or something similar, it is in South Australia in the midsts of a desert. The earliest European explorers thought it must have been an inland sea. The rivers that run into it are dry for most of the year and mainly run only when there is massive rain or floods.

I don't know if something like that is worth looking up with regards to the questions you have regarding the lakes.

Dek


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 02 December 2011, 15:29:48
Thanks, that's quite interesting.  I don't think the land around the Aerelian Lakes is quite as dry, but the Xaramon side, at least, isn't particularly wet either. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 20 December 2011, 20:40:25
Mina, something I wanted to raise was the name of one of the bays in Xaramon Province, namely Wind Bay. Is it too similar to Eight Winds Bay in Northern Sarvonia? If it is, maybe we could consider changing it now before more development is done which might mention Wind Bay? Or would it require too much work for map makers to change it at this time?


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 20 December 2011, 22:42:51
I don't know whether the name can be changed; that's up to Artimidor.  It doesn't seem that similar to me though.    :undecided:

Well, even if the name can't be changed, I'm not opposed to the existence of alternative names for it.  That sort of thing happens sometimes. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 December 2011, 04:13:10
Names on maps that are on site in form of multiple pictures should definitely not change. Because one such change would require updating several maps (main Santharian map, provincial map, Kingdom map, rivers map, possible smaller maps existing somewhere in Places entries). This would mean hours of work for the sake of changing one name. Plus this one doesn't seem too similar for me either, so I'd say it's quite ok to keep it as it is.


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 21 December 2011, 08:47:33
Duplicates and similarities are 'authentic' for a land's nomenclature - some fisherman rolling up his nets in 'Windy Bay' would never have heard of 'Winds Harbour' twenty thousand leagues (or even perhaps only twenty leagues)  down the coastline, and a travelling mapmaker who records the local names he encounters isn't likely to tell the villages of 'Hogton' that there is already a 'Hoggetown' and they'll have to change it! 

 There are likely to be 'East Wattle' and 'West Wattle' quite deliberately in the same county.  'Sutton-on-Wye' and 'Morgan-on-Wye' can both exist along the same Wye River.      There might even be a 'Tharia' village in Manthria somewhere and a 'Tharia' town on the edge of Ximax, known to the scholars of the Compendium but not to the villagers and townsfolk themselves - named completely independently in honour of King Thar...

Such details give realism and familiarity to a fantasy setting and do not need to be avoided but rather courted :)


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 22 December 2011, 04:36:51
oh cool :) didn't know it would cause all that much work, and Judith, you raise very good points. I didn't want to get too far along with plans for that area and then find out it needed to have that name changed.


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 19 May 2012, 02:08:56
Did a bit of work on the new map these few days.  Besides minor border adjustments, I've also labelled most of the things that currently have names (and the 4 duchies that don't, so that it would be easier to talk about them if necessary).  There's still a lot of things that don't have names though, and I could really use some help with that. 

It's also getting a little cluttered.  I might split it into a political map and a geographical map in the future. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 19 May 2012, 10:24:34
Unnamed Duchy Three - Duchy of Sheyaur perhaps? named after the ruins of Cyroan's fortress on top of the Ilian Plateau. Other thought I had was somehow an easter egg to something in Homer's Iliad.

Maybe the unnamed cities in the province of Gilden could be
- Gillum;
- Renlum;
- Cyrolum;

Named after the Scions of Thromgolin. I've reached these name by taking the nicknames of the three figures (Gil, Ren and Cyro) and adding the final three letters of Caelum to them. I figured that Kyranians would probably look to name their settlements after famous figures in their past, especially as the city of Naios appears to have been already named after one of their historical figures.


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 May 2012, 03:39:48
Looks really nice so far, Mina! :thumbup:

Though of course a lot more things still need to be done before I can begin to convert it into a Santharian map à la Manthria. Progress with Vardınn has stalled at the moment, as these details are still missing there as well to a great degree (but good progress on map elements has been made!). But just continue on here - I hope we'll reach a point where we have enough information and can tackle this!


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Bard Judith on 22 May 2012, 11:22:39
I like naming things, Mina!  Can I help?


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Mina on 22 May 2012, 14:54:38
Sure, go ahead. :) I think one of the bigger problems I have with this is that we only know the meanings of very few Centoraurian words, and almost no Kyranian words.  Creating arbitrary names seem way harder than creating meaningful ones.   :undecided:

Arti: I recently found that Smee was going to make a Manthria-style map of Xaramon for his masterwork.  Any idea if he's still working on it, or if it's been abandoned?

Dek: Thanks!  I've added those names, though I'm not entirely sure about having the same ending for all three cities. 


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 May 2012, 03:05:23
Well, he showed up briefly a while ago (32 days ago to be exact in the Manthria thread), but he has disappeared ever since. I've sent him a PM now, let's see what he says...


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 23 May 2012, 17:48:17
I just thought that maybe -lum could be a suffix meaning city or place of or something like that, much like our suffixes of -ville, -ton and the like.


Title: Re: Xaramon Master Plan Discussion
Post by: Smee on 24 May 2012, 16:34:21
Hey,

I've replied to Art's PM, but a quick note in here.

Seems like you're moving well on this master plan, so no worries awaiting when I might have time to continue the map. If someone else wants to take it over I will find somewhere else to map as and when I next have a proper time here.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with during my occasional visits.

Happy Dreaming :)