Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Fox on 09 May 2008, 23:22:31



Title: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Fox on 09 May 2008, 23:22:31
Uh oh, 'nother big topic.  :evil:


Raw Magic has essentially been defined as form, while elemental is content. We've also discussed that there is something specifically different between, say, a rock and a person, in that the latter has something called 'life', which is not provided by elemental ounia thus preventing high level mages from truly creating life even if they compose all the right ounia in the right spots and active the right links and properties.

Therefore, clearly, there is something 'special' about different objects, and obviously this comes from Raw Magic.


Therefore, in its application for elemental magic, would this Raw attribute actually be enough to provide extensive 'feely' differences between different things? For instance, grabbing a hold of a human's ounia is one thing. But if that same mage were to try and manipulate the ounia of a plant, or of a rock, or a slug... would it be different? If it *is* different, this would mean that for each individual 'species' (more than just living things, however. And even each individual, though to a much lesser extent), a mage would have to practically 'start over' in order to know just *how* to manipulate its ounia. IE, consider language. There are many, many different kinds of languages. While the basic principles are often the same, and even in many cases the same letters, there are many differences between two different languages, which takes extensive study to learn the nuances of.

As applied to magic, this could mean that a student who has never cast magic on a rock, or a stone, would find it much more difficult than on more familiar materials. In fact, for more diverse materials (especially different kinds of animals and environments that the person cannot be easily exposed to), they would find magic most likely impossible without practice. What this does is gives us a lot more 'learning' for our magi... IE, just learning the system isn't enough now. A mage who suddenly encountered a dragon, even if he knows how to cast the best spells, would find it impossible to cast spells *on* the dragon (though he would be able to manipulate other things near the dragon, obviously) because he has never actually practiced 'touching' the ounia of a dragon's essence.... he's never reached into the proverbial 'sack' of dragon essence and studied the formation and feel of the proverbial 'marbles' within that sack. IE... he wouldn't know that the sack he is reaching into is the dragon sack (he might just be reaching into a rock sack) if he's never tried casting on a dragon before, and even if he did, he wouldn't know which ounia (in general) in that sack control which parts of the dragon, or how much influence must be exerted to get a specific result, etc.


As a whole, I've mostly been considering how we can give ourselves more classes for our magi despite us having a will-based system, especially with the length of time ours are supposed to spend studying. If every individual type of creature, plant, material, etc has its own raw nuances, then it'd mean that those who have attended classes that specifically present test subjects to practice on over and over again would have a greater range of things they can apply their spells to. This gives our magi some 'reverse-engineering' classes, where they can be presented with things to practice spells on in order to learn how to manipulate the ounia of a variety of different raw forms. Thus magic becomes less 'I narrow my eyes and look at you forcefully' and more 'I reach out with my feelings and try to find the right essence to manipulate and the right way to manipulate it', which feels much more 'wizardly' to me. This also goes to actually give Raw Magic an active use and definition within the system, which it has not had yet.


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Mina on 09 May 2008, 23:48:27
I get the feeling I'm going to be spending a lot of time on magic theory...

Will look when I'm done with the spells and Helvil's and Gaffin's language stuff. 


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Mina on 19 May 2008, 04:36:16
It is rather annoying to have your browser crash while you're in the middle of writing something. 

Well anyway, as I was saying, Raw Magic is really Coren's thing.  My understanding is that it basically has to do with affecting what Form something reflects.  So, for example, a mage using Raw Magic could turn a table into a chair by making it reflect the "Form of Chairs" instead of the "Form of Tables"; changes in the car'all and stuff are somehow taken care of automatically.  It's also purely theoretical, in that it's possible according to the theories, but far beyond what the magi can actually do.  Practical (as opposed to theoretical) Ximaxian magic can alter Structure at most, though sufficient alteration of Structure could cause it to become associated with a different Form. 

It should be possible to implement some of what you are suggesting without having to deal with stuff like Form, I think.  What I'm thinking is, different things have different Structure and composition of elements, so the same changes probably affect them differently.  It won't be impossible to manipulate the car'all of something one has never encountered before, but there might be unexpected results if it is of a 'type' the mage is unfamiliar with and they aren't aware of how it is different from the car'all of things they have worked with before.  But it might not increase the amount of things to learn by as much as you would like. 


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 19 May 2008, 05:36:30
Basic Question- How does a block of wood's form change from "Form of Wood" to "Form of Chair" or "Form of Table". Obviously, the carpenter changes the objects physical form, but how does using a saw on an object change it's basic essence?


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 19 May 2008, 05:50:40
Changing the Car'all changes the form, if the change is big enough.. but that works both ways.. If i take a twig (one car'all) and snap it, i get two bits of twigs (two car'allia)

If i take a handfull of dried reed (a handfull of car'allia), and weave it into a basket, i get one car'all (although a composite one, as the individual car'allia of the reeds have been merged and can still be individuallytargetted)


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 19 May 2008, 05:56:58
So maybe, at the heart of table car'all lies wood car'all, and in essence, the table car'all is only a perversion of the original wood car'all, which is a perversetion of the very original earth car'all?


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 19 May 2008, 06:01:18
In a sense, yes.. the table car'all contains the car'all 'code' for wood, and wood ought to contain the 'code' for all of the minerals and stuiff it's made out of.


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Mina on 19 May 2008, 06:04:54
Form here refers things that are more or less the same as the stuff with the same name in Plato's Theory of Forms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms), which isn't really about essence, if I understand it correctly.  It is also not the same thing as car'all.  Using a saw on something probably counts as 'sufficient alteration of Structure'.  


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 19 May 2008, 06:07:58
Plato's theories stated that there has to be a Form for every object in order to be recognised. Jostein Gaarder describes them as cookie-cutters in "Sophie's World", claiming that, though the same Form (cutter) was used, no two cookies are every exactly the same, yet you can see they are all of the 'same kind'.


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Bard Judith on 19 May 2008, 10:44:43
( I loved that book...)

And while this discussion is mostly over my head, I'm finding it fascinating.  Mira's twig and basket analogies were particularly beautiful and useful.  Hope you can come up with something as simple and illuminating for the final Rules!


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Mina on 19 May 2008, 13:34:55
Exactly, Mira.  Well, maybe a cookie-cutter analogy is not the best in this context, though it works.  I'm thinking it's sort of like how liquids conform to the shape of their container, so using Raw Magic is like moving a liquid (the car'all) from one container (Form) to another.  Or at least that's how I interpret it. 


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 20 May 2008, 01:06:06
More or less.. only you are just changing the shape of the container (moving gives me the idea you create a new physical vessel for the car'all, which is just plain silly.. and impossible)

(no pretty analogies here.. or any logical explanation for that matter, its just, well.. a fantasy world :P)


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Mina on 20 May 2008, 17:51:53
On the contrary, I think logical explanations are needed even in a fantasy world (unless it's supposed to be an illogical world); they just don't have to follow RL rules.  :P


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 21 May 2008, 00:58:01
Well, then you hereby voluntered to figure out how a Form can be changed instantly, without noticable transition stages :)


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Mina on 21 May 2008, 01:59:58
 :lol:
I might, some day.  But given that it's something that the Ximaxian magi don't know how to do it anyway, it's not something I'm too worried about at the moment. 

Though that does make one wonder why the Ximaxian magi would think it is possible in the first place...


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Fox on 21 May 2008, 21:18:37
Note that the purpose of this thread was not to start a discussion on how one would actually *use* Raw Magic. But rather, it would be how Raw Form affects spells cast by normal, Ximaxian elements.


I believe we're all pretty set on the idea that there is a 'Form', which determines what something actually is regardless of the content. IE a table is only a 'table' because of the raw Form, without such a form it would only be a splattering of wood car'allia. The more complex an object's raw Form (especially living creatures), the more difficult it would be to cast spells on them especially when one is rather unfamiliar with that specific 'category' of Car'all.


I guess, even further beyond the Raw implications, is instead "what does a mage 'sense' when dealing with a car'all?". Do they sense just generalties, or do they in fact sense specific compositions based on what the object is, and that they must thus have some kind of knowledge of which part or portion of the car'all actually does what? Is it constructive (mage must clearly define what they are doing with the basic components. They must know the blueprint in order to make an effect), or is it imaginative (a mage imagining an effect that targets someone's arm automatically affects the proper ounia for that task)? The former requires much more practice and knowledge, while the latter is far easier.



Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 22 May 2008, 00:08:43
I'd go for constructive, but allow mages to be able to sense car'allia 'blueprints', or at least the part of it composed of the element they work with. Also, most of our spells seem to gravitate to that general direction.


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Mina on 24 May 2008, 05:31:31
I think the title must have confused me. 

Quote
IE a table is only a 'table' because of the raw Form, without such a form it would only be a splattering of wood car'allia.

Personally, I think that something without Form will probably resemble the Void, but this is not quite the place to discuss this...

Quote
I guess, even further beyond the Raw implications, is instead "what does a mage 'sense' when dealing with a car'all?". Do they sense just generalties, or do they in fact sense specific compositions based on what the object is, and that they must thus have some kind of knowledge of which part or portion of the car'all actually does what? Is it constructive (mage must clearly define what they are doing with the basic components. They must know the blueprint in order to make an effect), or is it imaginative (a mage imagining an effect that targets someone's arm automatically affects the proper ounia for that task)? The former requires much more practice and knowledge, while the latter is far easier.
I've always been under the impression that car'all can't be sensed, except by using perception-altering spells like Aura Sight.  As for constructive vs. imaginative, I'd say something in between, though leaning towards constructive.  They would have to be taught, just not that specifically.  Also, even if they don't know the 'blueprint', I don't think they would be unable to do anything at all; they'd just be very likely to mess up, because they don't know what they are doing. 

I think certain more mundane reasons might also limit what a spellcaster could do.  For example, a mage might be good at healing humans, but can't do much for a horse, due to not knowing enough about horse anatomy. 


Title: Re: Raw Magic 101 - What makes a [thing] a [thing] discussion.
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 13 January 2010, 22:22:52
Ah! I missed this entirely! Maybe one of the mods could it that list contained in one of the stickies?

EDIT: Added it here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,10572.msg168981.html#msg168981)