Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Places and Map Design => Topic started by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 June 2008, 04:24:42



Title: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 June 2008, 04:24:42
As promised to Smee, here's the map in the original scale of the Manthrian map: Scattersand Shoals (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/scattersand_shoals.jpg). The isles are still rather small to draw something decent on it, so if you try your hand on it, Smee, you could still make it a bit larger to draw on it properly. On a full Santharian map with Manthria being reprsented 1:1 on it as it was drawn, we'd need to reduce the size of the map at any rate to this point.

BTW, side note: If you look at the Manthrian map (here (http://www.santharia.com/maps/provinces/manthria_frame.htm)) and press the third button on the top left, you'll see the map without any text. Quite useful to copy stuff from it and integrate it wherever you feel it fits. :)


Title: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 05 June 2008, 04:32:21
Lovely... thanks  :)

I only have a free copy of Paint Shop Pro 4 at the moment, and a couple of hours spent earlier determined that it isn't quite good enough (the spray-can is awful).

I have PSP 8 arriving in a few days (only Ł20 from Amazon), which I know has layers, and other good stuff that 4 doesn't. Hopefully that'll be able to perform on a similar level to Photoshop 5/6. Today was a good practice anyway.

If not, I'll see if EBay has a copy of Photoshop 6 or 7 for a reasonable price (the official Adobe site is only interested in selling me the very latest version for Ł500+  :shocked:).

I'll be in touch  :D



Title: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 05 June 2008, 05:38:07
Smee, have a look at Photoline 32 (http://www.pl32.com/)

That one is relatively cheap as well. It is the one I use and others say it is as good as photoshop, it can open PSD and save  as PSD. And they have a forum where the developper answers your question within a day! ;)


Title: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 05 June 2008, 15:33:40
I will do, thanks Talia.  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 June 2008, 03:35:46
I've now split the topic of the Scattersand Shoals entry, so that this thread deals with map drawing stuff only (as Smee and Judy asked some questions).

Some more things are now available for download:

The Santharian Monstersize Map (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/santharia_monstersize.jpg) (2.58 MB) - you can download this and take the piece you want to draw in detail. Once it is done, it can be pasted back into the overall map.

Map Elements (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/map_elements.psd) (2.59 MB) - This Photoshop source file contains various single houses, trees and texture stuff that is used in the Manthrian maps and can be grabed and pasted on new maps. Note that other detailed maps can serve as well as great resources to grab a bit of a mountain, a waterfall or whatever. In this context I recommend to have a look at the textfree version of the Manthrian map (http://www.santharia.com/maps/provinces/manthria/manthria_empty.jpg) and the Silvermarshes map (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/silvermarshes_empty.jpg), which contains e.g. hobbit holes, waterfalls etc.

And here's another one - the Northern Sarvonian Monster Map (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/sarvonia_monster.zip) (2.60 MB in zipped form) - this version fits exactly in size to the Southern Sarvonian one.

Hope that helps, Judy & Smee!


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 06 June 2008, 03:40:48
Us Northerners could use a monstersize map, too... ;) And thanks for the map elements. They'll prove useful!


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 June 2008, 03:43:44
I don't have one available yet, but I'll try to make one so that you can get an idea of the size and can plan detailed stuff as well already.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 June 2008, 04:24:59
Okeydokey - I've now uploaded a Northern Sarvonian monster map, which is also available in the above thread. Note that these maps are purely to get the size and relations right in comparison to the Manthrian map, nothing else. :) - Have fun!


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 06 June 2008, 04:36:38
Awesome stuff, Arti. Thanks  :D

... can't wait for PSP8 to arrive (it was dispatched today).

If I'm lucky it'll arrive tomorrow, so I can fiddle over the weekend. Otherwise I'll have to wait until Monday's post.

EDIT:

Ooh, I like how you've fitted the Manthrian map on to the monster South map. One day, the whole thing will be like Manthria.

One day  :P


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Takór Salenár on 06 June 2008, 06:34:07
I'll have the distances done soon


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Bard Judith on 06 June 2008, 09:19:29
(smooches Art)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 06 June 2008, 23:50:10
Woo - it arrived.  :grin:

*Starts playing with maps*


EDIT :  Early days, but the spray-can works how I want it to at least, and it can save as .PSD  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 07 June 2008, 03:02:36
Ok - A brief sample of progress so far.

I've shrank it down to proper size, and put it next to the original. It's rough, but I'm learning. Seems to be going well.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/test2.jpg) (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/test.jpg)

Click for full size.

This is fun - gonna take ages though. :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 June 2008, 04:41:40
The isles are nicely made according to the tutorial, the top left one however doesn't look that convincing yet... - Note that it is definitely not easy to start with an island that is extremely small, because you don't have much space to operate. I like larger areas much better, because there you can draw more or less at will and apply textures in a very cool way.

Texture stuff isn't explained yet in the tutorial BTW, but it isn't that difficult. It makes maps look pretty cool however. If you have a texture (like in the resource file I've provided), you can paste it on the target map and then play around with transperancy of the texture (or more precisely: the layer) - this will help to blend it into the background.

To get textures fit precisely into a selection use the lasso tool with 3-5 feather (that's explained in the tutorial) and then just move the selection itself to the second picture where you have your texture shown. Then copy the texture with this selection and put it on the first picture where you actually made the selection :) - As already said: A larger area makes all this much easier!

We would really need some sort of tropical tree image here that fits to the other tree pics.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 07 June 2008, 04:56:40
Thanks for those tips. I'll likely be starting again on the terrain but it's all good practice, and I'm pleased that PSP 8 seems to be up to the task.

Ok - tropical trees... how about :

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/tropicaltrees.jpg)

(obviously next to the current two types of trees you have as comparison).


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Bard Judith on 07 June 2008, 11:39:54
Yay!  The Bombox and the Parpalm!

One problem: you want your tree to not have too 'varied' a silhouette, otherwise it looks strange when you are duplicating it many times.   Pretty as number three (Bombox Palm) is, you might want to try putting the trunk more upright.   But play around with it and see how it looks...   Number four is great - even so tiny you can see the 'rings' of the Parpalm!


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 June 2008, 15:28:55
Yeah, this looks pretty cool already, Smee :) And it doesn't hurt to have some variety in the palm design - the more different versions we have the more interesting a whole forest will look, you can also flip them etc.

Also make sure that at the bottom you have a piece of transition/smeared half transparent landscape (see the other trees), this allows them to be pasted much easier on a map, so that the trees doesn't look like an alien element if you make a forest with them.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 07 June 2008, 17:21:05
Quote
Note that it is definitely not easy to start with an island that is extremely small

Is this really the case?

Even at the final size, these islands are so small that from my view it obscures little mistakes I might make on my first map-making adventure.

Hopefully by the time I'm done, I'll be at a point where I'll be able to cope with an area that'll get closer scrutiny.

~

I'm glad you like the palms. Last night during the downtime I attempted to put them into a jungle on the largest island.

Here's the result.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/1test2.jpg) (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/1test.jpg)

Click for full size again.

Should I put this waffle in a seperate Shoals thread, or we ok in here?

EDIT:

By the way, the copying the selection tip was awesome. Took me a little while to work out how to do it, but it was very useful. :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 June 2008, 17:35:08
Well, there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here regarding the way you use your palms to make a forest, Smee. Because when I look at your map I don't see anything anymore of your palm, know what I mean?

Have a look at the Manthrian map, and be aware that the Manthrian map is the same scale as the Scattersand Shoals map you try to deal with now. This means that trees shown on the Shoals map should be shown in the same size as on the Manthrian map. The trees are a symbolic representation anway, so we don't put every single tree on the map, so you should ideally just paste a bunch of palms around the isle, so that they are nicely recognizeable by the viewer. If you put it next to the Manthrian map it should look the same style. What I can see here right now looks more like a grass texture - it isn't identifyable for the viewer as a forest.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 07 June 2008, 19:20:15
Yeah, I know it's the same scale. But, aah, I think I may have twigged what you were meaning about the small size then.

Ok - no problem. Plan B  :D

EDIT:

I think I'm on the right lines now with the main island...  this is full sized.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/2test-1.jpg)   

I'm umming and aaahing about the twin-palm. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't. But at a glance, I see the collection of trees, and I'm still thinking desert island, rather than jungle, maybe I just need to darken the inner land, leaving the whiter areas at the edge to mark the beaches?


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mannix on 07 June 2008, 19:40:14
That looks really good Smee.  A lot more like the Matharia map. :thumbup:  Keep up the good work! :grin:


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 June 2008, 20:23:07
Have you got your palms on an own layer in the Resource file, Smee? If so, please send them to me. - I might have a look at it and adjust it a bit, so that you see how I'd improve it a bit. You know, one perfect palm copied hundreds of time might make a perfect wood - if the palm isn't completely perfect, this also multiplies. So getting the single map icons done best is the key to the whole thing :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 07 June 2008, 20:30:52
Sent to your MSN Yahoo email address.  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 June 2008, 21:28:48
The address isn't really in use, Smee - always use webmaster@santharia.com!


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 June 2008, 23:02:23
Ok, Smee - I've tried to show you a bit what I mean exactly. I've used the second palm you had and made a bunch of varying trees out of it - nothing major, but the varying trees makes it interesting in case you post more palms.

Looks like this then - you can also see that I've put it before the white background to see how it blends in with it. The bottom part is also important, as it connects the tree with the ground.

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/map_elements.jpg)

I've also made it a bit lighter (changed the transparency of the layer to 83% and then saved this layer again). I think palms aren't so dark. You can see both versions on the picture.

I've updated the resource file with the new version containing the updated palms, so you can download that one again (same link as above) to be up to date.

Here's how the palms then look like on the picture - note that there are no textures at the ground and other stuff that would make the map more complete, but you get the idea. As you can see - it is difficult to work with such small islands, you don't really have much space.

(http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/palms.jpg)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 07 June 2008, 23:09:06
OK - I'll work with just the one good type of palm in the varieties you've created. Makes more sense.

I'll leave you alone for a bit now, and get back to you once I've made more significant progress.  :P

Thanks for bearing with me. Despite at this stage it probably being faster for you to just create the map yourself, hopefully it'll lead to faster maps once I'm trained up  :D

EDIT : Incidently, I'd lowered the transparency too, on that most recent pick I think they were at 65-70% ish.

EDIT 2 :

Yep - the single palm looks much better. I've also played with a little terrain, river and a small cave now too  :P

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/3test.jpg)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 June 2008, 03:04:53
Yay, Smee! This looks pretty cool :D - The sizes look right, the palms are more realistic now, it fits together and fits to the style of the Manthrian map :) If you've followed the description of this particular island as it was described by Gean, then this island is pretty much done already :)

The ocean ripples around it are still missing, but otherwise it looks really nice.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 08 June 2008, 03:29:12
Yep - I was following the description. It mentions central hills, rivers, pools, caves. It's all there. On to the next islands :)

As for ocean ripples. I spent some time on those. PSP8 has 'ripples' and 'waves' but neither of those do any good. I got a semi-decent look with a partial transparent sandstone effect, but again not great.

I'm afraid, barring a great discovery, I can't get PSP8 to replicate the ocean ripples.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 June 2008, 05:45:11
Well, I can give the ripples a shot myself once you're done :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 08 June 2008, 09:49:08
That would be very cool - thanks  :)

Anyhoo, seems I couldn't stop, and as it nears 2am, I'm just about done with island two. Don't worry, I won't be posting after every island. But this one is probably the most intriguing of the rest of them. According to the entry it features high cliffs, with rock formations on top known as the 'Teeth', with normal forest to the east, and beaches to the south. Alot to fit in to a small island, but I think it's come out well.

Oh, and I found reference to an inn apparently being on the main island, so I've stuck a hut in as well. :)

The passage between these two islands is also supposed to be treacherous, and most visitors enter the bay (where the hut is) via the south, unless it's a life or death thing (chased by pirates!). So I've stuck some rocks in.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/4test.jpg)



Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 June 2008, 15:24:55
Yeah - very nice, Smee :D

BTW: Make sure to keep the forests and the houses etc. on seperate layers, so that you still can move/hide them if necessary!

Also I thought we could have some shallow waters around the islands. See e.g. at the Manthrian map (http://www.santharia.com/maps/provinces/manthria_frame.htm) in the southeastern part around Ciosa and a bit further up from there (Gopstone Point, Pearl Coastway etc.) There you see some texture shining through out of the waters. If used here and there this could give the impression that the islands come out naturally of the waters.

These things are realized as well by applying a texture (available in the resource file I provided) and the reducing its transparency pretty drastically. I guess the texture used around Manthria is the layer that is called "Ebene 3" in that file (invisible if you load it, so you need to make it visible first). As usual use feather to get smooth edges combined with a special selection you get from the main map - I guess larger feather is best here, because then the sand fades out pretty nicely into the sea.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 08 June 2008, 21:27:11
Well it's been a few hours, thought you might be missing me  :P


After a productive morning, I've managed to work through all the islands, and I'd say I'm close to finished...

Here we have a small version of it, click for a full size along side the original.  :grin:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/7test.jpg) (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/DraftFinished1big.jpg)

Unless there's any changes you want to recommend Arti, I'll get to work on the lettering and compass rose etc, before sending you the master for some ripply-goodness in the ocean.  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 June 2008, 22:39:50
Looks pretty cool in general :) - Two things I'd like to point out however:

1.) The texture around the island is a bit too transparent - could be much stronger, so that the borderlines between sea and land are difficult to see at some places. I guess a stronger visibility is more realistic - especially once the ripples come in there will be more stuff going on around the island and the sand might literally drown in that.

2.) The other thing is that that the sea transitions to the land and the dark parts of the sea don't look overly convincing at the current state of the map. It looks somewhat airbrushed (the size of the airbrush is recognzable here and there), which you should try to avoid. So this looks somewhat inconsistent.

Concerning the lettering - you'll need the font used for the other maps then, have a look at this page (http://www.santharia.com/downloads/downloads_fonts.htm). You should download all fonts anyway (last but one link), as you'll view the site then properly.

The maps use the Seagull font. In order to get the filters right I have to upload an example file however first so that you'll hopefully can use the Photoshop text filters as well. This could be a problem however if you use PSP8 - I assume you get the layers correct, but if you get text filters correctly displayed I don't know. Well, I'll upload a small example file with a text layer on it, let's see.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 08 June 2008, 22:45:50
I got all your layers in the Map elements file, so that seems to be working fine at least. All the island textures are in various layers, so making them less transparent is no problem.

I've pretty much ignored the sea since first making the islands rise from the ocean, so I agree they do need some work.

Yep - I got your font pack in my first days of joining.  :)  Anyhoo, I'm off to the cinema now, so I'll catch up with your lettering example in a few hours.

Much thanks.



Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 June 2008, 23:04:23
Here you go, Smee... Download the PSD version of the Silvermarshes  (http://stuff.santharia.com/artimidor/silvermarshes.psd) with masses of layers.

For one it features of course text layers with texts of various sizes, so you should get an idea how texts of smaller and larger settlement should look like in terms of font-size etc. Some texts are also curved, so you see the Photoshop function there - those texts that are curved and not entirely straight (moved by 20 degrees or so) are actually rendered, so I also cannot edit them anymore in Photoshop, that is normal. In this case one needs to do the text again in case it doesn't fit for some reason.

I've also given you the Silvermarshes map here, because it was put on a parchment, which is great in order to integrate smaller maps. In your case you could make the parchment even smaller, so that it fits directly into an entry (the Silvermarshes map could be opened in full upon clicking on a small picture in the main entry).

Anyway, here you see how it is done that a map is put on a parchment - if you make the invisible layers visible you should get an idea how you can do the same thing with your map. I've made the map a Photoshop pattern that I then applied on the parchment, but this isn't really necessary. If you find another way how to make it appear like that it's perfectly fine. Just make sure that you put the map eventually under the edges that overlap it in the final picture.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 09 June 2008, 03:00:25
Hmm... I got the scroll, and all the text in seperate layers, but no map part, and no dropshadows on the text. Plus an error message "This PSD contains unsupported content". But the font works, and I can see the text atleast  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 June 2008, 06:18:54
Well, that was to be expected unfortunately. PSP just interprets layers, and cannot do any effects - therefore you also don't see the map itself, because it was used as an effect (a pattern) in the Photoshop map.

Maybe it is better that I finish the map with the texts, as it would look different at any rate if you do it. I'd say just focus on the mentioned things (sand transparency, water etc.) and I'll take over from there to finish it off. This ensures that the map looks exactly as the others on the site.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 09 June 2008, 15:41:09
I did two pieces of text, naming a couple of islands last night. I'll send that to you and you can see what you think. It's not exactly the same, but similar.

I'm at work now though, so that'll have to wait until this evening.  :)





Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 June 2008, 06:02:22
Yep, the map has arrived and it looks really good, Smee! :thumbup: Maybe a tiny little bit of airbrush to get some uneven water stuff out of the way, but I could do that as well.

The text looks great, though it isn't a text layer when I open it with Photoshop, but that's also not much of a problem. I'd say: Finish the rest of the texts and then send the final version, and I'll eventually see to it that it ends up in a parchment, so that we can put it on site... - That was really fast and efficient work, Smee - congrats on your very first map, it is really very well done and definitely of great use of the site (especially as there were ideas lately to use the Shoals for an entry or two)! :thumbup:


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 10 June 2008, 15:50:41
Ha, awesome. I'm happy the text is similar enough. I'll finish it off gladly later on.  :grin:

Might spend some time today making a list of places to name. The only ones I can think of at the moment are the Queen's Harbour and the Teeth, but there might be more lurking. :)

The text won't be in a text layer, because the drop shadow is an effect and I have to convert the layer before I can apply it. So even to me that text is lost. I would have to redo the text to change it (although of course it can still be moved around a bit)

Anyhoo, I've very happy you like it, and I look forward to a more ambitious map after I've got a few more entries under my belt. Simsy is calling me again  :P



Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mina on 10 June 2008, 19:16:03
Well, after looking at Smee's work, I thought I'd try making a map too, since I could use one for Xaramon anyway.  It didn't go very well.  Seems I just can't smudge properly, so I can't get coastlines and mountains right.  Other stuff I've tried so far look mostly alright though, except steppes, which are a little iffy because I'm not sure how they were originally drawn. 

Any tips? 


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 10 June 2008, 19:27:59
Just about everything that sticks up on my map is stolen from some part of the Manthrian map. I wouldn't really know where to begin drawing steppes I'm afraid.

As far as smudging goes, for me it was usually followed by an equal part 'softening', which in PSP is just another aspect of the same tool. I think it's basically a blur.

Smudge --> Blur --> Smudge --> Blur

It might help to give tips if we could see a little example of your progress so far.

Viva la Map Revolution !  :D





Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mina on 10 June 2008, 19:38:03
I'm using Photoshop.  I'll see if I can find any examples, but mostly I'm getting either stripes or alternating bands of darker and lighter colours. 


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 10 June 2008, 19:47:39
That really looks great, Smee, I will include the sizes soon. Maybe a scale could be added?

I know how much work it is, I tried my hands at Aeruillin once, but the text was always not readable when I shrunk the size, so I gave up after some time..


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 10 June 2008, 20:12:03
Could it be you missed the island very far in the south? Or has Gean already forgotten to mention  it? i looked at the normal Santharian map.


Edit:
Quote
The archipelago consists of thirteen larger isles and many more smaller banks. Together they form the tops of an undersea mountain range

Maybe it is just a bank, but it would be nice to have the whole white area included, there could be some coral reefs!


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 10 June 2008, 21:21:41
There is 13 islands on mine, Talia. If you click the last picture I linked, it takes you to a blown up version of the original. All 13 are on there.

I'm not too sure how to include coral reefs in any more detail than the textures along the coasts (I know they're quite faint on the last picture I posted, but they're a bit more obvious on the master copy now).

As for scale - it's identical to Manthria, so I'll be copying the scale bar from that map.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 11 June 2008, 01:36:42
Ok - here is the full text version.

I'm sending you the master file Arti.  :)

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b31/SmeeDyer/Finalfull.jpg)

I'm not sure about the scroll in the top, but it's in a seperate layer, so can be turned off easily.

This has been fun.  :D


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mina on 11 June 2008, 01:46:34
Well, it looks like I deleted all but one attempt, which looked pretty bad.  So I made a new one instead, applying blur after I've done the smudging as you suggested.  I think I'm still not doing it right. 

Anyway, here's the northern half of Parda, which is not actually part of Xaramon, so none of the things I draw on it is likely to appear on the final map (if I even manage to get there).  The mountains and river are just to show what my current attempts are looking like. 


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 11 June 2008, 01:58:49
So you're not aiming for Manthria detail, but a zoomed in look at the province? i.e. the same type of detail as the full Sarvonia maps?

If not, then you're doing what I did first, and using the kind of mountain symbols of the less detailed maps, rather than the more realistic ones as seen in Manthria.

For the kind of mountains you're doing, they seem fine. Are you using a lighter grey for the right hand side? Based on the map guide (http://www.santharia.com/workshop/maps_6.htm), you have a dark grey on the left, and light on the right. Then the smudging and bluring parts brings that together. Yours are a bit uniform in colour at the moment.

The coastline looks good too, although perhaps a little neat. You can see each little line of smudging. But at this stage it's fine. The adding in of textures, and all the other stuff you do, will blend them in. For now, you are wanting a workable outline, and it does that.  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mina on 11 June 2008, 02:18:08
Well, I couldn't figure out how to do the more realistic mountains, so I just went with Arti's guide.  I suppose I could try to copy and paste from the Manthria map though...


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 11 June 2008, 02:20:56
Yup - there's a link in here somewhere for a no-text version of the Manthria map. Learn to love lasso, copy and paste.  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 11 June 2008, 02:46:26
This map looks so good, Smee! Congratulations! :)

How many hours did you spend creating it?


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 11 June 2008, 02:51:44
Hmmmm... probably 15 atleast. Likely closer to 20 I think, although it was mainly the learning stages of which I'm sure there's many more to go through. Once I had that first island done, the rest were relatively quick.

Incidently, I opened up the monster map, and saw what you mean by that extra island to the far south. But I think that might be a bit of a mistake, as according to the Scattersands entry, Sapphiria is the most southern point.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 11 June 2008, 03:20:52
Yes, I thought now as well, maybe just some rocks which make the voyages on see dangerous, not really an island.

About the time you needed for the map - I thought so, and that it takes the most time  up to learn how to use your tools! Don't stop making maps., or you might forget how to do them. I needed 50 hours for Mimi, without background, but most of them were needed as well for  learning how to do it. And now I have a new software where I'm in the beginning stages again! *ack*


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 June 2008, 03:33:38
Yes, I think it turned out just great, Smee - could hardly have been any better :D The small texts (Queen's Harbour etc.) don't seem to be as they are on the Manthrian map for whatever reason, but I'll do these with Photoshop, so that we stay consistent here as well. I will also see to put it on the parchment, then everything is perfect methinks :D

@Mina: It looks to me as if you have only used a small smudge pen, otherwise your borderlines would look different - use a pretty large pen to smear the coastline stuff into the mainland. If you use a large pen don't smear with the center pressure point but click so that only the part of the circle touches the area you want to smear. Then smear away.

The mountains also clearly need a very strong colour as the line you're smearing from. If you smear a strong colour (like black) you get the gradual greys anyway through that. Start off with a stronger colour at any rate. And start off also with a thicker line. You need something to smear.

Another good option of course is as Smee has pointed out to use existing matertial you can see e.g. at the empty Manthrian map and combine things, stretch mountains, only draw connecting stuff or grab a connection/texture that blends into/over it from another part of the map. Already existing maps are your friend :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mina on 11 June 2008, 05:28:24
Ah, so that's what I was doing wrong.  The guide says to use a smaller brush though.  How thick are the lines you start with, by the way?  The largest I tried was about 5 pixels, I think. 

I've spent the past few hours playing around with the Manthrian mountains.  Don't know if it really works though, as I seem to end up using the same few mountains over and over.  Also, is there any way to turn them into volcanoes?  We have a few in Xaramon, I believe. 


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 11 June 2008, 05:37:11
The same mountain is fine. There's a deform tool that can make it fatter, thinner, taller etc. You can get quite a variety with one mountain.

There's a good volcano on the Raház-Dáth map, which with a little deforming would come out nice. Either that or just use it as a guide to turn a mountain into one.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 12 June 2008, 03:18:36
5 pixels should be fine I guess, depends on how much you smear etc. Important is that the outlines are still recognizeable. There is also a volcano in the Raház-Dáth, also up north in Northern Sarvonia, near the Kuglimz territory (Celeste Mountains). Though I haven't made one on a larger map like the Manthrian one.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mina on 14 June 2008, 23:36:19
Just letting you guys know, I'm still working on it.  Merging the Raház-Dáth volcano with the Manthrian mountains seems to work; Distort is quite helpful. 

My attempts with the coast still look weird though.  Using a larger brush for smudging tends to produce many lines, though blurring seems to help overcome that. 


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 16 June 2008, 08:34:21
Btw, I zoomed in on the Mantharian map, and it looks absolutely beautiful. Really, you deserve a heart congrats for that, Art!  :thumbup: :number1: :pet: :clap: :worship: :speechless: :interesting: :goodidea: :thanx: :exactly:


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Bard Judith on 16 June 2008, 09:45:20
I agree!


It's wonderful that we have some other people interested in map work - I've always argued that geography CREATES culture and that maps should come first in any development or discussion of an area.

Art, have we decided that ALL maps on the site should be done in this consistent greyscale style?  I think we discussed that, so that eventually (like in the year 3000) we can click almost anywhere and 'zoom in' at least three or four levels deep, from continent to province to specific city.  In which case all city maps should be done in greyscale as well.    Could I try redoing the Marcogg map this summer to see how that might look in matching greyscale?  Have any ideas or extra icons that we could use?


This guy  http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/2008/01/quest-complete-rpg-map-tileset.html (http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/2008/01/quest-complete-rpg-map-tileset.html)  has 'free-to-use' icons that would look amazing in greyscale.  Would you mind if I contacted him and asked for permission to use them to create our city maps? 

(http://nicubunu.ro/pictures/rpg/buildings1.jpg)



Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 16 June 2008, 12:03:50
On the subject of city maps, I'm interested in drawing on for Kyttaering. Any tips?


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Mina on 16 June 2008, 12:34:14
This site (http://www.zombienirvana.com/) has some guides for drawing maps in Photoshop.  I don't think it is entirely compatible with Arti's style, but it has some nice tricks you can learn. 


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 16 June 2008, 18:49:21
I added to my musing's section of Smee's plans a thought about city maps, and have a couple of links in there of some previous threads about it. I was thinking of starting with Simsy. A small village seems a good place to start for me.

Those look like some awesome icons Judy. I hope we can use them.



Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 16 June 2008, 20:54:51
Is there a way someone can add a couple of town icons along the northeastern border of the Themed'lon forest? That is Torik, the Kaaer'dar'shin home colony. With two (going on three possibly four) entries mentioning Torik, there should be an indicator of it on the Caael'heroth map I think.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 June 2008, 15:49:11
The Nicu's Clipart page looks really great, Judy! Here on this page (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/?gallery=rpg_map) you have pretty much all of these pictures. I'd need to check how they look greyscaled and made smaller, but I think they will fit in perfectly into Santharian maps, because we went for the 3d approach, and these are made exactly the same style. As he offeres them to the free clipart site, I guess he's perfectly fine with allowing them to be used in Santharia. Maybe you can contact him anyway and ask again, pointing him to the Manthrian map - maybe he sees the potential we have with such clip arts and helps get us even better with new ones :)

Concerning the question if all maps should be greyscale maps: Well, we have a great city map of Nyermersys by Koldar, which is not in greyscale, so I cannot say that this was agreed somewhere. And this map definitely looks cool :) - Personally I will focus more on the landscape maps in the style of Manthria, as here I have my experiences, and if we can use more 3d-clipart this will make maps even better if we can properly convert them the way we need it. I guess with landscape maps we'll cover the most important things, that's why I'll go more in this direction personally.

@Azhira: Well, if you have a bunch of stuff to add to that particular map, I suggest to take the map and mark what you want to add where and name these towns/mountains/villages etc. - then I'll so to add all that at once.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Bard Judith on 17 June 2008, 17:37:27
Ok, I've sent an email off to the address Nicu gives.  Don't know what time zone he's in, but let's hope he checks his box regularly!  I LOVE those pictures...

Will Photoshop greyscale and shrink nicely?  My PhotoIllustrations can desaturate and retain detail, but resizing sometimes pixilates stuff badly.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 June 2008, 20:10:24
Well, yeah, it depends on the picture of course. The source pictures I bought back then in order to populate the Manthrian map with them of course had to be reworked to a degree, so that they looked ok in the size we need them. But yeah, important is mainly to have a great source.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 20 June 2008, 22:54:40
Just as a side note, I want to congratulate Smee on his elaboration of the Scattersand Shoals. It's perfect :D

Now that we're at it, I seem to remember I had an easter egg hidden among the names of the isles, which is... well visible at the map if you have the eye for it... it had to do something with... can't remember the name... alli...something ;)

Hope you can do more maps in the future Smee, they're a most welcome addition to the project. With general entry, map, and theme music, I think the Scattersands are quite complete  :grin:


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Smee on 23 June 2008, 17:52:01
Kind praise indeed, Gean! I couldn't have done it without all the work you did on the entry itself, but I'm delighted you like it.  :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 26 June 2008, 02:28:32
Completely deailing the current topic, but; Art, is there a Nybelmarian version of the Monster Maps? Or does it need to be created from scratch? (that would be a hassle... compiling the Koldar maps into one big one, then re-cutting it into the geographic regions, and somehow changing the scale without everything going blurry, ans poking them around to fit in line with the standard maps as Art makes them..)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 June 2008, 02:32:25
No, there isn't any Nybelmarian monster map yet, simply because my reference was the Santharian map and I used it to blow the other things up to fit it the Manthrian style version. I'd have to look at the (rather small, rough) complete Caelereth map and deduce the Nybelmarian size from there.

So yeah, while more complicated, it's something I could try.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 26 June 2008, 02:37:04
Well, if you could create such a master map, it will be my pleasure to start filling in the high-detail versions. Lots of things have changed since Koldar frist created his (masterfully drawn!) map. Geography got altered, entire nations arose from the empty sands, and so on and so on. Not in any particular hurry since i still have to secure some software to work with through.. uhm... 'creative means', but still.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 June 2008, 03:04:40
As if the rough sizes of Nybelmar are not already online and finer details in the work. Wasn't that  (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,12613.msg151831) thread not long enough on top, how could you have missed it, Mira?

Quote
I'd have to look at the (rather small, rough) complete Caelereth map and deduce the Nybelmarian size from there.

Art, you did not know either that I'm doing this stuff right now?


Oh how encouraging!   :evil:

Btw, the two mostermaps together as one map gave my computer quite a bit work to do, but it helped me to find the right distances.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 June 2008, 03:08:21
Well, yes - I could use a Nybelmarian distance from the easternmost point to the westernmost. Based on that we could determine how large the map should be in cm on a piece of Photoshop paper e.g., and then I can blow it up that way :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 June 2008, 03:11:10
I can give you the pixel and conversion (?) number, that should be easier, (later though) the sizes are already in the other thread under Caelereht.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 June 2008, 03:16:31
Pixel number would be perfect :)


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 26 June 2008, 03:22:19
Oh, no Talia, i'm well aware of your measuring efforts. I was talking about mapDRAWING, as Nybelmar will need the same kind of detailed maps as for instance Manthria has eventually.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 June 2008, 05:21:30
Sorry for my outburst , I'm sure I have read you asked for distances also, Mira. I need new glasses. Thanks for adding the thread to the sidemenu, Art.

To Nybelmar:

WP ---> Worldmap
SSMM --> Monstermap Santharia

Definition:
Manthria Map: (1:13300 strals)

160 pixel = 100 strals  (Scale on Map)
x(strals)= 0.625 y(pixel)

Reverenz:
Bay East of Saloh  -  Ciosa ( Gebl‘s Nose): 1650 p ~1600p = 1031strals ~ 1000 strals




Cape Strata -Dragon Maw 248p --> ca 250 (WM)
Cape Strata -Dragon Maw 9000p (SSMM) ---> 5600 strals



Santharian MM and Manthria Map are slightly different (MM multiplication factor 0,065, SSMM 0,6; I ignored this and took the Manthria map, this way the distances might be a bit too big. I might correct this when I'm finished. )

Nybelmar:  East - West as shown by the line: 293 pixel on World Map

250 pixel (Santharia WM) --> 9000 pixel (Santharia MM)
293 pixel (Nybelmar WM) ---> 10548 pixel (Nybelmar MM)



Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 June 2008, 05:26:18
If you want to do the Nybelmar Map as the Sarvonian MM, why not just lay a layer on Koldar's whole map and draw the rough outlines and most important mountains. I think Smee would be good for that task. Cutting the whole into pieces after it was blown up to the right pixel size should be no problem.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 26 June 2008, 05:33:31
Well, yes, that would work, provided we have a whole map from koldar. impretty sure there has to be one, i cannot imagine i made it in four parts.

Then i can just use the techniques provided in the tutorial to transcrabe borders, places, important geology and the general outlines of the continent.


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 June 2008, 06:51:25
What about this one?  ---> leftmenue

http://www.santharia.com/maps/continents/nybelmar_complete.htm


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 26 June 2008, 07:00:52
*embarased silence ensues as Talia points out the obvious*


Title: Re: Map drawing stuff
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 June 2008, 07:09:06
:buck:

*laughs*  and  consoles Mira. Only those who work make mistakes