Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Cosmology, Myths and Religions => Topic started by: Mannix on 27 August 2008, 21:22:12

Title: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 27 August 2008, 21:22:12
The Hobbit Deity Liran
Checklist for sections finished:
- Overview (Finished)
- Names (There are a few listed, but they are likely to change. Suggestions are more than welcome.)
- Appearance (Unfinished)
- Mythology (Finished)
- Lore (Unfinished)
- Importance (Unfinished)
- Symbols (Unfinished)
- Feastdays & Celebration (Unfinished)
- Temples (Finished)
- Prayers (Unfinished. I think I may need some help with this section. *Points his puppy dog eyes at Judy.*)
- Sayings (Finished, though I may add more if I think of any.)

Liran is a deity of the hobbit folk, and is viewed like most hobbit gods, with love and adoration. Liran rules over a passion instilled within every hobbit’s heart; food. Whether it is eating it, cooking it, or both, it would be near impossible to find a hobbit that does not love their meals. Like all hobbit deities, Liran is seen as more approachable and is much easier to relate to than those of the elves. Combined with their love of his dominion, many hobbits hold this deity close to their hearts.

Often is Liran seen as a well aged halfling, with a full hobbit belly. A smile is always present on his face, probably brought on by the flagon of ale often in his hand.  Being a hobbit himself, Liran is revered primarily among these people, though a few human cooks have adopted him as their deity. Guardian of the chefs, feasts, drink and most importantly food, Liran is most often praised while in the kitchen. In recent times, Liran’s reign is sometimes seen to spread onto general entertainment, crossing into Dalireen’s domain.

It is sometimes said to the young hobbits of the shires, that Liran visits every hobbit at least once in their life. As they stand in the kitchen, whistling a merry tune, he may come, or as they lie in bed dreaming of the most plentiful feast, then too may he visit. But whenever he comes, it can be sure that a gift shall be brought. Whether it is a simple foridite treat in their pocket, that the young one was sure wasn’t there before, or an exquisite meal, much better than should be, hobbits praise the deity when they receive it.

Liran is often named Liran of the Feast, Pantrylord, Liran of Many Ales, Keeper of Taste, and Guardian of the Kitchen, among others.


Liran is a deity of the hobbit folk, but is hardly recognised b those of other races. He, like all specifically halfling deities, is not once mentioned in the elven Cárpadosía, but then he is often thought to not even be alive then. Being so different from the elven gods mentioned within that book, Liran is often preferred by hobbits because of his relevance to their lives. While not having a month in his honour, it is sometimes argued that every Halfday is honouring him, however there are other hobbits who would argue for another deity. The following day, referred to as Bakeday by the peasants, is also sometimes accounted to Liran, and this time there is no one to oppose him. Liran is thought to be quite fond of the Bardess Dalireen, for what goes better with a feast than entertainment.




Feastdays & Celebration

No buildings are there solely provided for this deity. However, every home contains a shrine to him, the kitchen. Simply cooking is a form of worship to this deity. Many hobbits however, especially those passionate about cooking, keep a small shrine to this deity.  A simple carved figure, or even just a bowl filled with wine, with the occasional candle, often sits within a hobbit’s kitchen. If ever a hobbit wants Liran’s help with their cookery, all they need do is ask, or sing, or whistle.


"Have you been stealing from Liran's pantry?" Used when someone drops something or has difficulty keeping grasp on something. It is a reference to their fingers being covered in butter, and hence slippery. Often used among neighbouring human tribes as well as among hobbit folk.

“Liran’s gift.” A term used for those especially talented in cookery. Most often, it is used as a compliment. Commonly used among hobbits.

“What is life without Liran?” Used to denote the importance of food in a hobbit’s life. Often used throughout the hobbit shires.

“Do not take Liran’s smile away.” Used by mothers to encourage their children to eat their meals, vegetables and all. This saying is thought to have originated from the hobbits, but the humans tribes near hobbit settlements often use in more frequently. This may be that hobbit children are less likely to not finish their meal than their human equivalent.

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran ~ The Idea
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 27 August 2008, 21:36:37
Wonderful Mannix! :clap: The hobbits could use another deity, especially one of the kitchen! You are just the right person for the job. I'm really looking forward to following your progress here.  :D

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran ~ The Idea
Post by: Mannix on 27 August 2008, 21:40:28
Thank you Azhira. I've been gathering my thoughts on this for quite some time, so hopefully it should be good. :)


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 02 September 2008, 20:45:42
Just a quick suggestion:

It might be better to pick a different name, since the other hobbit deity we have is called Dalireen, and the two names are very similar. 

Looks interesting!  And perfect for the hobbits.


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 02 September 2008, 20:51:00
Okay Alysse. I'll try and think of something. Oh, and in case somebody mentions it, I realise that Urtengor is said to have invented cookery, it is all under control. :P And thanks Alysse. :)


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 03 September 2008, 08:11:53
This IS a wonderful idea!   I just have to wonder....

Is Liran, or whoever he'll be called, actually a deity?   The hobbits don't strike me as a particularly - um - devout society - not one which would invent god after god to satisfy various needs.   This would be a wonderful opportunity to create a few 'demi-gods' or even 'saints' - though they wouldn't necessarily be called such...  people who were born on Caelereth, lived exemplary lives, and were 'deified' at the end of those lives, possibly by the Twelve.   

Doesn't that fit in well with the happy-go-lucky, pragmatic, cheerfully persistent hobbit lifestyle, and (though I hesitate to use the word in connection with our halflings) philosophy? Certainly they have a child-like way of looking at the world, and a limited sense of 'grey areas'.  I suspect they, most likely of all our races, would be the ones to believe in 'works-righteousness', or 'the gods help those who help themselves'.

Just a thought, but it should certainly spark some discussion and possibility - we have talked time and again about having some sort of spiritual counterpart to the many 'demons', or forces of evil, within Caelereth, but 'angels' simply don't seem right and good spirits are rare.   Hobbit 'saints' or 'guardians' have a very natural feel to them, and even if humans don't believe in them, we'd have a few more positive spiritual energies floating about the disc!  :)

PS:  Some names:  How about  Churwise?  Ruombly?   Offen?  Nubble?   Dohan Fullbelly?    Huran ManyAles?      Duffin Sopsful?     :)


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 03 September 2008, 08:37:05
The "Saints" title doesn't bode well with me, but the concept does.
I'm thinking of giving the Eyelians a similar concept....

Anyways, I digress.
A quote from the Hobbits entry to further discussion here...
Hobbits do have some of their own deities, however, who, though not commonly known among elves and men and the other races of Santharia, are much celebrated and loved among the Halfing race. One such deity is Dalireen, who is believed to be the Hobbit muse of song, dance, and innocence. She is commonly thought of in times when inspiration is greatly needed, and called to in song instead of silent prayer.

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 03 September 2008, 16:57:06
Judy I agree, Hobbits aren't a devote race, but this isn't how I see them 'worshiping'. For example, I believe that dancing or singing would be a form of worship for Dalireen, or cooking and eating for this guy. I wasn't thinking about creating god after god, just ones for the few important areas of a hobibts life. They believe in the twelve but find them hard to relate to. I think that they should have deities, but more down to earth ones, just how Rayne wrote Dalireen.

I see their deities as 'demi-gods' I guess. I think we have roughly the same ides, but we just don't know it yet. I don't see the hobbits as a race praying to their gods whenever they need help. To me, I think they would see their dieties as free spirits, ones to act upon their own will, not after being asked to. I was going to mention how they differ from the human and elven view of gods. For example, the prayers wouldn't be 'prayers' but more like songs about the deity. Perhaps these once were prayers, but not anymore. I guess they are more like friends, someone to talk to.

Anyways, I'd love to discuss your ideas for this Judy. :)


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 04 September 2008, 08:35:19
I think we indeed do have a similar concept in mind - and yes, the actual title would need to be refined and discussed.   It's not the title 'saint' I'd want to see either - just a shorthand for the idea, but certainly the idea is important.  Here you have a chance to introduce an idea that doesn't yet exist - to make something unique for our dear hobbits and the world of Caelereth.... and the halflings are the perfect race in which to set them.

Dalireen was drawn perfectly out of hobbit psychology,  and so is Liran/Duffin/Huran/whatchamaycall'im....     having them be a little 'more human' and a little 'less divine', seems also to fit their style. 

 And absolutely, eating is worship, and so is singing, whether the words are devout or not!

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth on 04 September 2008, 08:47:43
I've always believed Music is a direct connection to God...
Tell me if you want an uri, Mannix!

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 04 September 2008, 16:45:04
How about this Judy. I'll write this, keeping in mind your suggetsions, and then when it is finished we see if it fits. I want the hobbits to see religion differently as well, and if your want to help, all the better. I'll try and incorporate your idea, and we'll just see what happens. However, I don't think them being counterparts to demons would work. I don't know, it just doesn't seem right for hobbits to even believe in demons. Thanks tonnes Judy. Oh, and Nsiki, I'll remember that.


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 04 September 2008, 17:07:15
Oh, goodness, no, I wasn't suggesting MORE demons FOR hobbits - we have more than enough in the world already!  All I meant was that it would be nice to have some GOOD spirits, or benevolent spirits, who might be capable of intervening 'on our behalf' with some supernatural powers - as a 'balance' in the whole of Caelereth, if you see what I mean.

Let's keep talking and make sure we understand each other.  Sounds like fun....

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 September 2008, 17:13:05
Maybe these "evil" spirits could be called more "mischievous" or something for hobbits. They surely have another perspective on life than humans or elves.

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 04 September 2008, 17:39:26
Okay Judy, discuss we shall. What you said seems okay, probably how hobbits would see them. I think before I may have misunderstood you a bit. Basically, all I was thinking was a down to earth god in charge of a down to earth thing. I guess this does entail intervening if he is more down to earth. But where I am concerned is the intervening where demons are involved. I just can't picture a hobbit even thinking about a demon. Perhaps this is the human view, as they would surely see the deities differently. I don't think hobbits would even think about anything evil that much. To me, having something that counters demonic acts just doesn't seem to fit hobbit thoughts. I think the keeping balance could probably work, but not against demons. Love to hear what you think and sorry if I've mistaken your thoughts.


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 04 September 2008, 20:13:10
This is really going to make have to think come time to develop clerical things for the hobbits...not that I'm working on that anytime soon, but still...

I also agree that the hobbits shouldn't have a pantheon of deities so much as have a group of revered people that they consider in high regard. I won't say necessarily worship or pray to, but perhaps their idea of "worship" is reveling, celebrations, singing, feasts and the like. They honor their ideal heroes during many festivals and days throughout the year.

They aren't gods, so these saints have no temples. However, as an equivalent to clerics, perhaps the hobbits have storytellers, or loremasters, who are considered celebrities in cooking and singing and merry making.

On the flip side, there could exist trickster saints, troublemakers and the sort who are not evil as a demon would be considered, but more mischievous, as Arti said. I think this is a great discussion! Not every tribe/race MUST follow the human points of view on everything... :thumbup:

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 04 September 2008, 21:01:05
Az has understood what I'm getting at, and rephrased it very nicely.   Not 'saints' because that has too many Terran connotations (as we also decided had 'angel'), but folk heroes, demi-gods, representatives of the sacred.....

I'm going to try again to explain what I mean by balance, and it has nothing to do SPECIFICALLY with the hobbits' beliefs.

  We have for a long time had a large number of demons, demonic powers, evil spirits, ghosts, and the like developed and accepted to the site, and if one reads through the various supernatural entities one can come away with the impression that Caelereth is a seething hotbed of nasty, malevolent, destructive entities just waiting to tear humankind (hobbitkind, elves, dwarves, and other sentient beings) limb from limb as soon as possible.   I have wanted to develop or see developed something like dryads, nymphs, devas, asparas, or quasi-angels (though that's not the terminology I would use, of course), guardian spirits, or 'saints' for quite some time, just so that there is a fairer 'balance' of supernatural power in the Caelerethian universe.

"Oh, look!" I said to myself upon reading the descriptions of 'Liran', and thinking back to Dalireen.  'These characters look like ideal candidates for just that kind of positive energy - not gods per se as we already have a pretty heavy pantheon - but semi-divine, holy, or revered individuals who might even have lived at one time!"   Thus my suggestion that we make them 'saints' (terminology aside) - or 'avatars' - those who take on the aspect of the divine principles of joy, love, eating, and so on.   

Am I making a bit more sense, here? 

Of course, I see that both Art and Az have suggested that there could be 'rebels' and 'tricksters', and since we don't yet have a  Kokopelli, Raven, Loki, Coyote, or Ananzi figure - if you don't count Gebl the Rebel - a hobbit avatar would be the perfect representative..... think about a trickster hobbit and the world trembles!

Nomenclature ideas:

Senes (pronounced 'seenz' and suggesting 'senior ones')
Laire and Lairi (male and female versions, used as titles)
Gaef and Daem (ditto - archaic versions of "Gaffer" and "Dame")
Sanks (just as it sounds - a hobbitized version of the Tharian 'sanctified')

Those would be titles, but you could also do something completely different.  Hobbit clans/families are pretty important to them (Proudfoots, Underhills, etc.) so you could create a 'mythological' clan name that is given to all the hobbit 'saints', no matter their origins!

Thus:  "Dalireen Blessedvale", "Liran Blessedvale", "Duffin Blessedvale", "Odelve Blessedvale" (in charge of gardens and gardening, of course!) and so on.  They might then even be known as 'The Vales" for short...

Wait wait!  I just realized that Tolkien's demi-gods - from the Silmarilion for those of you who've read it - are known as the Valar!   There are some schools of thought which hold Tom Bombadil to be a Valar, for example.    So just how perfect would THAT be?

Can you not just hear a hobbit farmer in the tavern:  "By the Vales, Hubert, if this year's carroot crop does'na get topwilt like the last one, I'm set to marry  my Serribell lass... Hey!  Where'd my pint go?"

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 04 September 2008, 21:04:41
P.S.   Nice definition here - see what you think!

"The anthropologist [4] Lawrence Babb in an article about Sathya Sai Baba asks the question "Who is a saint?", and responds by saying that in the symbolic infrastructure of some religions, there is the image of certain extraordinary spiritual persons who are "commonly believed to possess miraculous powers", and to whom frequently a certain moral presence is attributed. These saintly figures, he asserts, are "the focal points of spiritual force-fields," exerting "powerful attractive influence on followers but touch the inner lives of others in transforming ways as well."[5]"

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 04 September 2008, 21:22:37
Ah, I get it now. :buck: Sounds like a great idea. It is pretty similar to where I was going, so it should be fine. Thanks Judy!

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 September 2008, 03:30:03
Yes, I think as well that the concept of hobbit "deities" perhaps needs to be thought about and concepted a bit. As what we have on the site is Dalireen, who is called "a hobbit deity", while maybe it isn't entirely clear in what hobbits believe in general.

That Dalireen was made a "smaller deitiy" perhaps isn't enough, as it's still named a deity that reminds of more human perception of belief. How she was characterised isn't really a deity anyway I'd say, but more something like a spirit, a happy presence. Or as Judy suggests a saint, an avatar. In the Dalireen entry there is a story that she was a hobbit that was heard by Nehtor sing and dance and that he was enchanted by that. Well, the fact that hobbits believe in the same Gods (Nethor) as the humans isn't particularly ideal, so I'd consider dropping that eventually. But we have characteristics of "saints" here - of real people who stood for an idea. Iin this case it would be more the idea of joy and merriness instead of the belief in a specific God. And later on people still believe somehow in her presence, just like saints are supposed to protect people on travels, or the house from burning etc.

I guess there's a lot more potential and fun if we work in this direction instead of making these "deities" the 14th and 15th Gods as additions to the human ones... :)

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 06 September 2008, 13:32:26
Arti, one thing jumped out at me from that post that I strongly disagree with. You said we should consider having the hobbits not believe in the Twelve, but to me it fits perfectly. Firstly, we don’t have to make them their own set of gods for everything in the world. Secondly, as I am sure you all know, the hobbits are a relatively small race. Over history they have become closer to the humans, and even elves. Because of this, I believe that they should have adopted the deities of these two races.


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 September 2008, 15:36:16
Personally I'm not so happy with it, but let's hear more voices.

I'm not so happy with it, because the humans already believe in elven Gods, and if the hobbits believe in these Gods as well, it's the whole thing all over again. But as long as there isn't tremendously much developed on halfling belief we could give them a new religious perspective in the long run which is fresh and fits better to the hobbit race in general. Hobbits could have an entirely different approach - personally I miss unique concepts a bit as far as religion is concerned. You know, we have typical Gods in Santharia, in Aeruillin, in the Kuglimz lands, in Nybelmar etc. So why not try our hands on a more, say, relaxed, more saint-based hobbit system? Here we'd have a chance to try something different.

Then there'd be no need to have all that human shrines standing around in hobbit territory etc. As they have another culture, haven't they? It reflects in their life-style, so why not in religion?

That's just how I'd see it. Comments, concerns, contradictions welcome!  :cool:

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 06 September 2008, 16:49:42
Yes Arti, but the Hobbit are incredibly similar to humans, and to a lesser extent elves. I agree that they have a different religious perspective, but I believe that this works with the Twelve, as I'm guessing Rayne did. They would view the Twelve differently to the humans, just as they themselves would see them differently to the elves. In fact, to me, this idea of inventing a whole new religious system for the Hobbits wouldn't fit with Judy's. I just don't think the hobbits should have new gods for everything. We'd have to create ones of everything the Twelve reign over. Additionally, the Santharian alliance, as I'm sure you know, was made of the elves, humans, dwarves and hobbits. Now these all believe in the Twelve, which I'm sure helped them unite. Religion can be a big barrier. I don't now too much about dwarves, but I believe they believe in Trum-Baroll, or Urtengor, which is at least on of the Twelve. Also, I think they have what I guess you can call demi-gods. This is what I was aiming for with the hobbits. This wasn’t because I read this dwarven belief info and decided to do the same, as I read it after my plans for hobbit religion.

I don’t want to sound selfish, but ever since I decided to focus on the hobbits I have made plans for them. Having them worship the Twelve fits in with these plans, as it does with most of the info on site. I know I'm only an apprentice, and so don't have as much say, but I think that since I am the one doing the most development of them right now that I should have some sway. I understand you want originality Arti, and I do too, but I don’t think we should change things just to get this originality. Having these hobbit deities makes them original compared to humans and elves anyway. I hope you don't take any of this personally Arti, as it really isn't meant to be.


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 06 September 2008, 18:51:41
Hallo, hallo!   I hear my name...

(reads carefully through the thread again and looks in detail at the post above)

Let's step back a moment and refocus.    There are some misconceptions in your last post that perhaps come from too narrow a perspective, Mannix.  If I may address them?  I think I can see more clearly what Artimidor is getting at - and as our Dreamer Prima and resident philosopher, he deserves to have his suggestions considered with a bit more care- but this is also my perspective on hobbit life and beliefs.   

First: you state: I just don't think the hobbits should have new gods for everything. We'd have to create ones of everything the Twelve reign over.

That contains a number of misconceptions right there.   The Twelve don't cover every aspect of human (or hobbit) existence!   They are rather similar to the Greco-Roman pantheon, which means that they represent a particular historical concept of deity.  There could be one god which rules over everything, or a brother and sister which divide everything in the universe between them.   There could be a very emotional type of deity which needs to be constantly wooed and placated, or a remote, observing judicial sort who rarely interferes.

  If you were to look at the Aztecs,  you would not find a 'goddess of love', for example...  Native Americans frequently have a 'trickster god', which is not represented so often in other cultures' beliefs.   Jehovah of the Old Testament did the Hebrews just fine in all capacities, while the vast Hindu pantheon has gods for every conceivable idea and some just floating around unemployed at that!       Think more broadly, not just in the love/war/birth/death sort of duality which the Twelve have already set up.

Next:  Hobbits are indeed humanoid, but they are NOT merely short humans, any more than the Thergerim are!  I wasn't happy to take the stereotypical 'drunken gold-loving quarrelsome short guy' as a model for my dwarves, and I don't think the hobbits need to be shortchanged (um, sorry, NPI...) either.  They are rather like human children in their simple view of the universe, but they are capable of passionate love, fierce quarrels (and even murder), theft (mushrooms!), loyalty and incredible dedication (Sam and Frodo come to mind)....     The hobbits would do just fine without 'gods' per se at all, for they have a very uncomplicated and direct view of life which does not unnecessarily complicate things.  Does a child invent God for himself, or does he merely accept what his parents tell and model for him?

Let's look at what the site already has to tell us about hobbits:  "Hobbits are known for being fairly unobtrusive and fond of nature, peace, and are usually very quiet beings. They tend to be, not necessarily laid-back, but not hasty. They do not hurry unnecessarily and take time to get from one place to another, or to complete a project, believing that "good things come in time". They are often self-content and unassuming, especially when it comes to the things happening in the world. Hobbits do not often meddle in the affairs of "big folk"...Hobbits tend to be able to look lightly on even the direst situations, and are indeed known for such behavior."

Quick clarification on the Thergerim:  They believe in Trum-Baroll, who - as far as they are concerned - is the only god, who made all things through His forgecraft.  He HAPPENS to match rather well with the human idea of Urtengor (or, more likely, the human concept of Urtengor, over the years, was strongly influenced by the dwarven one.  This seems to have happened across the whole pantheon of the Twelve, incidentally, because humans make gods in their own images and wouldn't initially imagine an elven Arvins, a dwarven Urtengor, and so on. ) but only the most liberal dwarves (the Zirghurim) consider the possibility that a) they might be the same and b) there might be other spiritual / supernatural / divine forces.

The elves believe in Ava, which the humans don't.   The dwarves believe only in Trum-Baroll.  Why should the hobbits be identical to the humans, is, I think, a valid question to ask, given that they don't 'meddle in the affairs of big folk'...

Now, this isn't personal either:  the above is not a list of 'Mannix's errors',  :) but rather, I hope, a way of asking you to broaden your viewpoints and deepen your knowledge of this world.   You do not sound selfish, Mannix, and yes, as someone willing to take on the fun and effort of developing a race, you do have 'rights', though that's not the most tactful way to put it.  You do have to stay within certain guidelines - the suggestions of members who are perhaps more familiar with all the details of the site that have been established over years of work are often considered to be such guidelines.    We haven't, as you can see, suggested change for originality's sake -  a more accurate statement would be that we are suggesting fleshing out the bare bones of what is already there, removing obvious 'placeholders' (things put in for the sake of creating a paragraph under a heading), and giving these wonderful halflings their own unique belief system to match with their unique culture.

Here's the only salient mention about hobbit beliefs - which to me does not read convincingly or consistently in the first section anyhow - and does not make a good match for the description of their personality, above.  When Dalireen was developed, suddenly the hobbit philosophy made much more sense - her conception was far more appealing and a better match for hobbit 'worship' styles. 

" The "small folk" of the shire believe, usually, in the same Gods and Goddesses as elves and men to some degree. Avá and the Aviaría are known throughout most shires, but worship and prayer is not a common behavior among Hobbits, who would much rather celebrate Gods and Goddesses through song, dance, and beer, than through quiet and solemn prayer. Because of this, there aren't many shrines near or in shires. Religion is not judged as something terribly important among this little folk.  Hobbits do have some of their own deities, however, who, though not commonly known among elves and men and the other races of Santharia, are much celebrated and loved among the Halfing race. One such deity is Dalireen, who is believed to be the Hobbit muse of song, dance, and innocence. She is commonly thought of in times when inspiration is greatly needed, and called to in song instead of silent prayer."

Really, can YOU see a people who are described as 'neutral in times of war' having any faith in Armeros?   Folk who are happy-go-lucky to the extent that they can " sit on the edge of ruin, in the dying wake of destruction, and discuss the pleasure of cuisine" worshiping Queprur?    A small race who love shallow rivers and deep wells but rarely venture upon the great oceans being able to appreciate the vast power of Baveras?   

I just don't buy it.  ;)

Can we keep thinking about and discussing this, based on some of the points I've raised here? This will become a very important part of developing the hobbits more fully, and it shouldn't be based on a few placeholder lines!

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 06 September 2008, 19:26:39
Thanks Judy. But please don't address me as if I don't know anything about hobbits. I have read nearly every entry on them. I did not seek to insult Arti suggestions, I just did not agree with them. Also, you say you hate it when people think dwarves are just small gold-loving people, well I'd prefer it ifg people didn't think of them as children. They are definitely not like children. What child would like talking about their genealogy? I have also mentioned many times that the hobbits would view the Twelve differently, just as dwarves would Urtengor. I never said hobbits should be identical to humans. I think this has all escalated because of misunderstandings.

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 06 September 2008, 20:02:56
Why couldn't the hobbits have adopted a simpler, yet similar, perspective on the Twelve? Instead of worshiping the Twelve themselves, the Hobbits could have taken a few of the gods and made them into the Hobbit perspective only...they wouldn't worship Armeros, but they would have a figure representative of the sun, smaller and similar to Foiros. Or, they could have a happy version of a water figure, a woman perhaps, similar to Baveras but without the huge over powering presence of the Twelve goddess...

In other words, the hobbits are simple, so give them a version of the Twelve that is simple and "small"...give the hobbits their own versions of Baveras, Utengor, Grothar, Nehtor etc...change the names a bit, bring them down to be a bit more "closer to home" and give them a warmer kind of personality. This could perhaps accomplish a little of both ideals - the belief in the Twelve, but so unique in many ways as to essentially give them a different "religion".

We seem to be focused on "The Twelve or the not the Twelve?" so why not combine the best of both worlds? The Twelve worship is so ingrained in Santharia that I am sure not even the hobbits could have escaped their influence...especially being around human lands.

Now, if this were the North where the Twelve are not so universally known, I would think that the the hobbits would HAVE to adopt a different religion entirely, as the Kaaer or Kuglimz do. But the hobbits are smack in human Santharian lands so creating an entirely different religion would be hard to accept, or at least several traces of the Twelve would influence it.

Not making sense, perhaps...just my two sans...

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 06 September 2008, 20:10:53
That makes sense to me Az, because that is what I was aiming for. I never wanted them to be the same. For example, they may not worship Ameros as god of war, but god of judgement and justice. Queprur may be a bit harder to find an aspect for hobbits but maybe sleep or night, though that doesn't fit well, but I'm sure we could think of something. Thanks Az.

Edit: Okay here are some suggetsions for the hobbits view on the Twelve:
~ Eyasha - This can stay pretty much the same, but maybe goddess of relaxation. She would probably be the most important among the Twelve for thew hobbits.
~ Grothar - Again, this can stay very similar. I can't really think of anything that isn't weather.
~ Nehtor -
~ Arvins - I can't see a hobbit being much of a hunter, but perhaps Arvins could be the god of protection.
~ Queprur - As I said this is a hard one. My current ideas are sleep and night, but I am unsure.
~ Urtengor -
~ Baveras -
~ Jeyriall -
~ Seyella -
~ Armeros - Instead of war, he could be the god of judgement and justice.
~ Etherus -
~ Foiros - Probably very similar again.
More will come after dinner... :P


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 06 September 2008, 21:04:19
Mannix,  I did ask you - and everyone reading - to take some time to READ and think about what I said carefully, in order to avoid such misunderstandings.  If you insist upon picking out phrases and objecting rather than reading in context, that can't be avoided.   Now I'm afraid I'm annoyed, and that will come through in my tone, no doubt.

I have quoted extensively not to insult your knowledge of hobbits, although I had thought your main focus on the gnomes, but to provide rather important context for other people reading the thread - who I have, you'll note, asked to contribute their opinions as well.   This shouldn't become a polarized debate, with  Mannix vs Judy, or old dev'ers versus new ones,  or anything else of the sort.   This has become a discussion about creating hobbit religion/worship - a fairly significant part of developing and fleshing out an existing race - not merely adding a new deity, and I don't think any one person's opinion should prevail.  Let's keep it a focused discussion and refrain from personal asides or other distractors.

So far, let me see if I can sum up this thread:  You've made a suggestion for a new hobbit deity, I've commented and redirected with a completely new concept, and we've sorted out some misconceptions about that concept.  It seemed to be going well at that point.  Art spoke in support of the new concept, you objected to one element of his comment -  eliminating the Twelve.  I suggested that we all think about some different, creative ideas - not necessarily 'pushing' my original Vale/saint concept, merely hoping to broaden the definition of worship and religion on the continent - and you again chose to react to a few selected phrases, rather than comment and critique on the CONTENT of the post as a whole.  (No one, as far as I can tell,  has actually said that 'hobbits ARE children', accused you of ignorance about them, claimed that you 'wanted the gods to be the same', or anything else personal, so I'm rather puzzled as to why you are becoming so reactive about this.)

  Az has given a new suggestion, which she sees as a compromise.  No one else has seen that idea or commented upon it, and yet you've proceeded to spin off from Az's suggestion - while, apparently, ignoring the discussion taking place before.   

  I repeat:  could we please open this up for more ideas and concepts and comments, as both I and Artimidor have requested, before you continue with developing 'Liran' or any other deities 'based on' the Twelve? 

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 06 September 2008, 21:20:29
Judy, I only wrote those ideas for the Twelve to show you my idea. I was trying to avoid misunderstandings again. I really don't want to annoy you, and I'm sorry if I have. I could blame it on stress, but maybe I'm just not being open enough. If that is so I'm sorry. How about this. I'll open a new thread called "Hobbit Beliefs Discussion', copy over the discussion and we can leave behind this unpleasantness. I really do like your idea and I'm sure we can all get this sorted out. I wasn't trying to pick out certain point, I think my head is just a bit muddle up at the moment. Sorry again.


Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Bard Judith on 06 September 2008, 21:30:58
(melts completely and is equally apologetic in turn)

I am sorry!  I was being snappish and defensive myself. 

And trust me, I could understand a 'stress' rationale (just learned I have plantar fasciitis and must 'rest'.  Ha. Ha. Ha.)

An excellent suggestion:  move the discussion (anything after the initial Liran post? As you think necessary) into a new thread and feel free to eliminate anything you think personal or unpleasant.    Forgive me, too?  I shall sleep better for it....

Title: Re: The Hobbit Deity Liran
Post by: Mannix on 06 September 2008, 22:15:39
Judy, of course I'll forgive you. I'd never want to hold a grudge against you. Anyway, I was more at fault. The discussion thread is up. If anything isn't right about the first post, or you think something else should be mentioned, feel free to tell me. :)