Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Cosmology, Myths and Religions => Topic started by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 September 2008, 05:00:51



Title: Krean Religion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 September 2008, 05:00:51
19/03/2013: Done!

Inspiration:
Quote from: Artimidor
Personally I miss unique concepts a bit as far as religion is concerned. You know, we have typical Gods in Santharia, in Aeruillin, in the Kuglimz lands, in Nybelmar etc. So why not try our hands on a more, say, relaxed, more saint-based hobbit system?

Note: The entry is in the second post of the thread.


Title: Re: Krean Religion (placeholder)
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 September 2008, 05:03:36
KREAN RELIGION

Overview
The Ancient Krean had a surprising attitude towards religion. On the one hand, they were not atheists; on the other, they viewed deities as “equals”. Some scholars have remarked that the Ancient Krean’s relationship with their deities was not unlike the relationship of a cat with the person with whom it currently happens to be residing. If the house is comfortable and it has been fed well, it may, from time to time, graciously offer a cuddle. A cat might demonstrate its fondness of you by brushing against your legs when you come home after a long absence. It may even enjoy your company and prefer to stay in the same room with you. But it will usually sit apart and have its own “space” instead of becoming appendages to their “masters” like canines. So it is with the Krean and their deities.

Read along and determine for yourself if this really is a case of “Dogs have masters and cats have staff”.
 

Prevalence
This entry outlines the religion of the Ancient Krean of south-western Nybelmar, with whom all contact has been lost since the Year of Darkness (1649 BS). The Ancient Krean are now regarded as mythical figures - perhaps a representation of humanity’s yearning for greatness and nobility.

The religions of other nations who have adopted Ankriss as a deity is often remarkably different, as is their perception of the High Goddess: see for example the official religion of the Grand Empire of Krath. Likewise, most of the “derivative” Krean tribes of today interpret their religions differently – often reflecting the disappointment and trials they have suffered after the Year of Darkness, the fall of the High Temple of Ankriss, and the loss of their preternatural arcane powers. This entry should not be treated as the basis of those religions.


Belief Outlines
The Krean attitude towards religion and matters of belief
The Ancient Krean had a surprising attitude towards religion. On the one hand, they were not atheists; on the other, they viewed deities as “equals”: the gods may be more powerful and presumably better informed, but are not intrinsically “better”.

According to the Ancient Krean, both mortals and deities have freewill. Thus, while gods could interfere with daily life if they so choose, generally they do not. Freewill is sacrosanct in Krean worldview: the gods have created the world and left men to be masters of their own destinies. Consequently, the Ancient Krean did not worship gods either for fear of retribution or for reward. The Krean “associated” with gods because (and only if) they believe in the idea and lifestyle these Beings stood for. Likewise, during religious practices the Krean never bowed or kneeled before their deities; prayers were conducted upright and with one’s head held high. The relationship was very much one-on-one, based on admiration and integrity rather than fear or self-doubt.

Some scholars have remarked that the Ancient Krean’s relationship with their deities was not unlike the relationship of a cat with the person with whom it currently happens to be residing. If the house is comfortable and it has been fed well, it may, from time to time, graciously offer a cuddle. A cat might demonstrate its fondness of you by brushing against your legs when you come home after a long absence. It may even enjoy your company and prefer to stay in the same room with you. But it will usually sit apart and have its own “space” instead of becoming appendages to their “masters” like canines. So it is with the Krean and their deities.

The Creation: How It All Began
In the Beginning, there was the Creator – and He was all there was.

On what happened thereafter, the stories diverge. Among these tales, find inscribed for your perusal the two most prominent:

(1)   All there was, was the Creator. How could he know he existed; how could he know what he was? There was nothing else. Thus he gazed into The Mirror so that he could see his opposite, Nothingness, and learn what he was from what he was not. And into this Nothingness (the Void), out of the Creator, and through the Mirror, issued the First Wave.

But some ask, if He was all there was, where did the Mirror come from? Thus they advocate a different account of how it all began:

(2)   A Consciousness conscious of nothing but itself experiences insurmountable existential qualms. Consciousness presupposes existence: There is something, of which I am aware. There is (existence) something (identity), of which I am aware (consciousness). It IS (vs it is not), IT is (it is this vs it is that) – and I am aware of it. One can summarise this version of creation in a somewhat cavalier but accurate manner: “There WAS (the Creator). Then he Thought. And then It All Began.” In the Beginning, the Creator was; the waters were serene. When the Creator began to question his existence, the waters grew restless; there was movement; and out of their depths rose the First Wave, carrying with it all the Possibilities of Creation, like a ripple expanding ever outwards after the stone is dropped. Some say the waters will quieten once again and the Creator will be All There Is. Others say, there being no resistance in the Void, the First Wave will go on, for ever and ever.

Though the questions are ancient and the stories manifold, one can extract certain essentials: The Creator was All There Was. He wanted to know himself and to experience his existence. Parts of him issued forth, creating the multiverse or “individuating” as various entities. Among these entities was Ankriss and/or Arlea (the ‘and/or’ depending on whether you are Lillivear, Aesteran or Krean), who created the Disk and perhaps many others as well. But because the Creator was All There Was, those parts which wanted to separate themselves could not succeed: there was nothing else to go between them and what they want to be separate from. Thus, while entities can never be truly detached, they can forget their connection with the Creator and thereby create an illusion of severance. As it is written in Ancient Krean texts: “Between the Creator and Existence fell the Veil of Forgetfulness, and the One became Many.” As these entities re-discover their true self, the Creator vicariously will know himself.

Ramifications of the Krean Creation Myth
Krean magic draws upon Krean philosophy, and it could be argued that Krean philosophy itself harkens back to Krean religion. Perhaps the ideas of non-linear time and simultaneous probabilities arose from its creation myth?

But professing the oneness of all things leads to a rather unprofitable conclusion: That everything is also you. Not to be conquered, but treated with love and generosity and goodwill - but perhaps also with (self)-discipline and justice. Was this reverence for all life – a recognition of the divine in all things – what restrained the Ancient Krean at the height of their power from subjugating the world?

One result of believing everything to be Source is that life and death lose their meaning. Death becomes not the end, but ‘an’ end, and also a beginning – a momentary threshold between one life and the next. And the whole of life becomes a voyage eternal – boundless beings journeying through, sparks of the same fire, arcing forth and returning home.

Another would be a healthy dose of suspicion towards any deity who demands worship and constant supplication. They would look at the gods of Korweyn, and of Aca-Santerra, and of Ehebion, and their relentless need for entreaty and glorification, and wonder: Is this not a deficiency, an illness of spirit? “Do the feet worship the hands, do the hands worship the head?” ask the priestesses of the Krean.

Ethics
What set of morals does a religion have in which the gods are seen as equal? Krean religion conceives of man as a heroic being, guided by reason towards creative achievement. Man is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. This necessitates a philosophy of self-interest and ethics safeguarding man’s survival qua man, that is: as a rational being capable of productive achievement.


Origins
In the ancient past, the War of the Chosen wreaked havoc on Nybelmar, and Menemronn laid waste to the continent. To escape persecution from the armies of Menemronn, many humans fled west. Among these groups were the ancestors of the Aestera and the Lillivear, led by the first high priestesses of Arlea and Ankriss respectively.

In subsequent centuries, when the Aestera and the Lillivear came together to become the Krean, a new religion was born, one that recognised both high goddesses as deities of the Krean.

As their realm grew prosperous and their skill in the arcane blossomed, they grew arrogant – and some say it was this arrogance that brought the downfall of the Ancient Krean. That we cannot say for certain. What we can say is that as their society evolved so did their religion: the free will of the individual took centre stage, and as their power in the arcane grew, deities came to be seen not as gods to bow before but as friends and equals.

The religion took the shape we now associate with the Ancient Krean towards the end of the Classical Age of the Krean (around 3200-2900BS: the second half of Rezar’s reign and the ensuing three centuries).

On the social origins of Krean religion, we offer the following illuminating extract from one of the scholar Coren’s lectures:

"There is a famous joke among the Anpagan Men of Nybelmar: The Gods created man, and then man returned the favour.

In this vein, let us first work out [the Ancient Krean’s] cultural sensitivities and attitude towards life. Then, from that, we can extrapolate their spiritual needs, the kind of gods they would believe in and the demands of their religion.

Imagine you are Krean.

(1)   On the one hand, you are not a sceptic; you believe that existence exists: what is, is. On the other, you believe that an infinite number of possibilities co-exist, like sheets of paper layered on top of one another: Not only are there various ways things could be happening in this universe but there are many other universes, each with its own variations, like constellations around reality. Together these different universes form the Multiverse. Multiverse + its Webs of Possibilities = the First Wave (all universes + their infinite variations). This is the Great Paradox: If Existence had a shape, it would probably be a “point”: Everything exists at once, here and now. At the same time this “point” must be inconceivably large.

How do these two beliefs influence your outlook on life? Firstly, you are confident of yourself and your existence; you are not filled with self-doubt or existential qualms. Nonetheless, confronted with the Multiverse, you believe one must keep an open mind. You are awed by the logic and vastness of this existence. You wonder at this phenomenal design and the capacity of the Being who conceived of it.  

(2)   You can alter these Possibilities (Krean Magic). You can influence Existence. So you are not helpless against the Universe: you can change it, learn from it, adapt it to your needs. As the Krean race you have a phenomenal power over the substance of the Creation. They say a Krean mage is worth ten thousand men in battle. Your mages have parted the oceans, tamed the greatest rivers on Nybelmar, bent mountains to their will...

How does this influence your attitude towards the world?
(i) You can learn a lot from Nature but you need not be afraid of it. When you have a problem, you can handle it yourself. You do not need a deity to turn to for protection against the world.

(ii) You are like gods among men. So you are not going to bow before any of their gods. One, you do not need them; two, you do not fear them. Any deity you would accept must command your respect: something more powerful, more erudite. Something you can imitate and learn from.

(iii) That said: You are convinced of your own greatness; you are confident and possess self-esteem. You would not kneel before anyone merely because they happen to be a little bit more powerful.

(iv) You do not consider yourself helpless against fate or vulnerable in the vastness of the Multiverse. You believe yourself to be the master of your own destiny.

(3)   Twin Kingdom is the most “affluential” (affluent + influential) state on the continent. You have built great cities, reached tremendous heights in human achievement. Life is good.

(i)   You lead a pleasant life. You have all your basic survival needs catered for. You have vast trade networks so you are rich. And ever since you have mastered magic (end of Rezar/Akiris era onwards), the nations around you no longer pose a threat to your safety. This leaves more time for contemplating abstract issues.

(ii)   Consequence of everything above: You conceive of man as a heroic being, guided by reason towards creative achievement. Man is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. This necessitates a philosophy of self-interest and ethics safeguarding man’s survival qua man, a rational being capable of productive achievement.

(4)   The Krean consider their civilisation to be thousands of years ahead of all the nations around them. This makes you proud, but also perhaps condescending towards the lesser races.

Would this not give way to a tendency to subjugate the other nations, to make them “behave” and teach them civility? Any humane philosophy (and religion) must counterbalance this tendency to prevent you from conquering the other races, with you as master and the whole world as your slave. In come the sanctity of Free Will and the prohibition against initiating the use of force. (…)"



Gods Overview
There were three protagonists in Ancient Krean religion: the Creator (Source) from whom the First Wave and the Multiverse originated, who is not actively worshipped; and two High Goddesses: Ankriss and Arlea. Usually, Krean of Lillivear origin befriended Ankriss and those of Aesteran origin befriended Arlea.

Source (The Creator): Known in Krean religion as “The Source from which all things come; and to which all things shall return.” (See: Belief Outlines: The Creation, above.)

Ankriss (High Goddess of Life and Nature): High Goddess of the Lillivear. Later adopted by the Krean.

Arlea (High Goddess of Water): High Goddess of the Aestera. Later adopted by the Krean.

Positive spiritual entities: The Ancient Krean also believed in the existence of positive spiritual forces counterbalancing demonic powers. The other nations on Nybelmar satirised the Ancient Krean’s relationship with these entities, commenting that they treated these forces more like “spiritual handymen” than as “guardians”.

Even to this day, in every Krean temple, there is a hefty, man-sized book listing the positive spiritual powers known to the Krean – recording their names, characteristics, whether their presence has been verified, how often they appear, their areas of expertise and how they may be influenced into lending their assistance etc. We have mischievously translated this book as the “Pradress Book” (prayer + address). When an Ancient Krean encountered a crisis he could not deal with on his own, he went to a temple to consult the book, find out which entities specialised in that problem, look up what he needed to do to draw that particular entity into an alliance or into rendering its services and check his estimated chances of success – so that he could decide at the outset whether it would be worthwhile to go through with the ritual. These books were constantly updated to take into account new deifications and possible ascensions.  


Worshipping Practices
The Krean usually pray to their gods when things are going well, to express their gratitude. If they have a problem, they try to solve it themselves. If that does not work, they then try to enlist the help of "spiritual handymen/guardian entities" in the spiritual marketplace (see the “Pradress Book” discussed in “Gods Overview” above).

Consequently, the Ancient Krean did not worship gods either for fear of retribution or for reward. The Krean “associated” with gods because (and only if) they believe in the idea and lifestyle these Beings stood for. During religious practices the Krean never bowed or kneeled before their deities; prayers were conducted upright and with one’s head held high. The relationship was very much one-on-one, based on admiration and integrity rather than fear or self-doubt.


Importance
Scholars put the Krean religion alongside the Korweynite Aseyan and Murmillion faiths as the third large, historic culture in Nybelmar. The Korweyn and the Murmillion nations based their whole being on the fulfilment of religious prophecy and the supremacy of their faith over others (wiping the floor with each other in the process). The Korweynites think they have to do good because otherwise their gods will fail creating a paradise; the Murmillion think reality is a humbug anyway. As the Krean civilisation rose in power, Krean religion, which regarded all things and all faiths as reflections of the same divine eternal truth, emerged as a sanctuary. Those facing persecution at the hands of the Murmillion or Korweynite empires often sought the protection of the Ancient Krean against their religious zeal. Because of this protection and their live-and-let-live attitude, traces of Ancient Krean faith can be seen in the belief systems of many civilisations today.

As diverse as they may have grown, the religious practices of the tribes descending from the Krean harken back in some way to the beliefs of their Ancient Krean Ancestors. It is also interesting to note how Ancient Krean religion formed the backdrop against which the more humane philosophies and mysticism of Krean monks developed.

In this way, the Ancient Krean planted a seed which continues to flourish long after the tree has fallen.


Title: Re: Krean Religion (placeholder)
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 09 September 2008, 05:08:53
*Gives Coren a big Org man-hug for providing this template at a time when religious issues are beginning to creep into his forthcoming entries*


Title: Re: Krean Religion (placeholder)
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 September 2008, 05:12:44
Well, the template is not mine :P You can access it via the Cosmology link on the left hand bar, courtesy of Artimidor & Talia


Title: Re: Krean Religion (placeholder)
Post by: Tharoc Wargrider on 09 September 2008, 05:41:58
*Unceremoniously dumps Coren on his a**e and goes over to give Arti & Talia a big Orc man-and-woman-hug for providing this template at a time when religious issues are beginning to creep into his forthcoming entries*


Title: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 September 2008, 17:54:02
(Brainstorming)

Adopting Judith’s thought-process. Let’s see if I can come up with anything interesting!


Imagine you are Krean.

(1)   On the one hand, you are not a sceptic; you believe that existence exists: what is, is. On the other, you believe that an infinite number of possibilities co-exist, like sheets of paper layered on top of one another: Not only are there various ways things could be happening in this universe but there are many other universes, each with its own variations like constellations around that reality. Together these different universes form the Multiverse. Multiverse + its Webs of Possibilities = the First Wave (all universes + their infinite variations). This is the Great Paradox: If Existence had a shape, it would probably be a “point”: Everything exists at once, here and now. At the same time this “point” must be inconceivably large.

How do these two beliefs influence your outlook on life? Firstly, you are confident of yourself and your existence; you are not filled with self-doubt or existential qualms. Nonetheless, confronted with the Multiverse, you believe one must keep an open mind. You are awed by the logic and vastness of this existence. You wonder at this phenomenal design and the capacity of the Being who conceived of it. (Later, I will turn this on its head so watch out! ;) )

(2)   You can alter these Possibilities (Krean Magic). You can influence Existence. So you are not helpless against the Universe: you can change it, learn from it, adapt it to your needs. As the Krean race you have a phenomenal power over the substance of the Creation. They say a fully trained Krean mage is worth ten thousand men in battle. Your mages have parted the oceans, tamed the greatest rivers on Nybelmar, bent mountains to their will...

How does this influence your attitude towards the world? (i) You can learn a lot from Nature but you need not be afraid of it. When you have a problem, you can handle it yourself. You do not need a deity to turn to for protection against the world.

(ii) You are like Gods among men. So you are not going to bow before any of their gods. One, you don’t need them; two, you don’t fear them. Any deity you would accept must command your respect: something more powerful, more erudite. Something you can imitate and learn from.

(iii) That said: You are convinced of your own greatness; you are confident and possess self-esteem. You would not kneel before anyone merely because they happen to be a little bit more powerful.

(iv) You do not consider yourself helpless against Fate or vulnerable in the vastness of the Multiverse. You believe yourself to be the master of your own destiny.

(3)   Twin Kingdom is the most “affluential” (affluent + influential) state on the continent. You have built great cities, reached tremendous heights in human achievement. Life is good.

(i)   You lead a pleasant life. You have all your basic survival needs catered for. You have vast trade networks so you are rich. And ever since you have mastered magic (end of Rezar/Akiris era onwards), the nations around you no longer pose a threat to your safety. This leaves more time for contemplating abstract issues.

(ii)   Consequence of everything above: You conceive of man as a heroic being, guided by reason towards creative achievement. Man is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. This necessitates a philosophy of self-interest and ethics safeguarding man’s survival qua man, that is: as a rational being capable of productive achievement.

(4)   The Krean consider their civilisation to be thousands of years ahead of all the nations around them. This makes you proud, but perhaps also condescending towards the other races.

Would this not give way to a tendency to subjugate the other nations, to make them “behave” and teach them civility? Any humane philosophy/religion must counterbalance this tendency to prevent you from conquering the other races, with you as Ubermensch and the whole world as your slave. In come the sanctity of Free Will and the prohibition against initiating the use of force.



To be continued...



Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 September 2008, 18:23:05
Does it make sense so far?


(Btw bear in mind that this concerns the Ancient Krean, who are supposed to represent an Atlantis-like civilisation who no longer exist/interact with the world. So no fear of them being overpowerful or conquering the world. They are viewed as mythical figures now, by almost everyone except the Lost Ones)


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 09 September 2008, 21:03:33
To me, this doesn't seem to be a religion so much as a humanistic self-view. It would seem that the tribes of Nybelmar prefer not to allow themselves to be controlled by any higher beings other than themselves. If the gods are considered equal, then why have them? What benefit does it have to believe and pray to something more powerful and more informed if you can just pick and choose who to associate with. The Krean gods have no power to influence. Their worshipers can simply associate with another god as they choose...

Like the Tarshiinite religion, it is ultimately the person himself in control of their destiny, their behavior and their loyalties. The gods, or essences, are there as something to relate to, and something to dismiss or accept, but never anything to fully have faith in. There is not a firm reverence for a higher power(s) who can guide and direct a follower.

This is fine and good, however, the religion seems more like a philosophical way of thinking. As if the gods were added for the sake of adding them just to make it "religious". In truth, the philosophers direct the way of thinking and worshiping.


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Bard Judith on 09 September 2008, 21:15:09
(hmmmm hmmmm la la *cough* who is John Galt *cough* mmmmm hmmmm la la la....)


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 09 September 2008, 23:28:33
Az, i have an inkling of where this is heading, and it's going to be just like you said, only in the sense that its abosolutely not like you said.

Yes, at the same time. Blame the Coren.

Anyway, it'll be more like a religion in a while, we're just not there yet..


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 10 September 2008, 00:15:22
Heh heh, Mira knows me :P

And Judith has nailed it on the head - again. I cannot include any allusions that Judith does not consciously or intuitively stumble upon... (Dickens!) The Ayn Rand reference is even more obvious in Krean Magic. 2 Easter eggs there!


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 10 September 2008, 04:16:43
So exactly what are you brainstorming for here Coren?



Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 10 September 2008, 04:19:04
I'm trying to work out their cultural sensitivities and attitude towards life first. Then I can extrapolate their spiritual needs, the kind of gods they would believe in and the demands of their religion from that. :)

So once I'm done with the "brainstorming" part and form a clear picture of what would fit the Krean, I will start writing their religion entry, in accordance with Talia/Artimidor's template above.


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 10 September 2008, 04:28:20
The impression I had of the Krean was that they were very accomplished but very arrogant. To draw parallels with their neighbours, the Krean are a perfectly comfortable people. Life is easy. Their advancement has led them into a sense of extreme security but also of complacency. If you look at the Zhunites in contrast, they have roots in agricultural industry, they are traditional hardworkers and are very down to earth. As a result, the Zhunites are not so cocky of themselves- its in their blood to be more respectful of situations due to their close bonds with rustic lifestyles.

You say the Krean are like Gods amongst Men? Surely such a perception of ones self exudes self-glorification?

Ultimately, I think their attitude towards life has been shaped by their success and they are both victors and victims due to level of their civilisation. Though the Krean are brilliant, they have a warped perception of how great and all-powerful they actually are. At least, thats how I see it.

'I am Krean. I have accomplished more and thus I am better than you' seems to be a fitting summary.

Hope my perception helps,

Decipher


PS: I also note that the Tarshiinites are being referenced ALREADY despite all that I've disclosed is a rough sketch of their beliefs.....



Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 10 September 2008, 05:03:31
(1) @Deci: "You say the Krean are like Gods amongst Men? Surely such a perception of ones self exudes self-glorification?" > well yes, that is the point. But objectively also, their magic is infinitely more powerful than any neighbouring tribe on Nybelmar (remember that this is the Ancient Krean we are talking about, who no longer exist, not any of the "derivative" Krean tribes we have today). The magics of the other Nybelmarian nations feel like "ants passing wind in the middle of a gale" compared to that of the Ancient Krean. Of course they are cocky. But we should be thankful; they could have been much worse. And ultimately it was this arrogance that brought their downfall (hence once again tying in to the Atlantis myth underlying the concept) :)

(2) 'I am Krean. I have accomplished more and thus I am better than you' > more or less. They do not put much stock in false modesty. But the best among them are not unjust to the merits of others either. See fe Dearan's treatment of his Zhunite friends in the later chapters of A Seagull's Cry. So while they consider the Krean as a race to be superior, remember that above all they are individualists. They do not approach a person with a preconceived set of racial stereotypes (except the Viaquis, whom they really do not get along with; which has already been hinted at the Hummingbird myths ;) ) They believe you need to evaluate everyone as an individual on his/her own merits. Note also that it is not only a person's achievements they weigh up as the standard of value (indeed, if you were not born with a power like a demigod how can you be expected to match those achievements? Likewise, if you are as powerful as an earthquake and you are socially driven towards progress, it is hard NOT to overachieve) but more vitally their character, how far they exercise Krean virtues. Although they keep an open mind, once they decide you do not live up to that standard, neither do they hesitate to denounce you - or make that felt. ;)

(3) Just posted the entry's overview. I think I have the basics of their religion conceptualised now. Also came up with a creation myth which will be posted later


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 10 September 2008, 05:24:29
Ok, I am satisfied with that overview ;) Enough tweaking.


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Bard Judith on 10 September 2008, 12:52:30
Hey, *I* can't help it if you're *also* a highly literate, eclectically well-read, articulate and amusing specimen of humanity!   Aren't great minds always said to 'think alike'? 

(flutters her eyelashes in full Clissaesque mode, with the effect of causing a breeze strong enough to loft the nearest parchment scraps from her desk)


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 10 September 2008, 20:49:44
Are the other deities considered demi-gods? Saints? What is their history? Would these saints perhaps be long dead venerated Krean who are now held up with a specialty of sorts? Or, are these children of the two major goddesses?

It seems to me that the Krean deities are simply presences used only in times of trouble. Otherwise, they serve little purpose. To me, it would be simpler to have the Krean be their own gods as they seem to consider themselves that anyway...


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 10 September 2008, 20:58:10
They are all considered deities, and as such by default -different- from ordinary mortals and Krean.

And yeah, the Krean religion is based on the free market principle. If a Krean needs something, and a God(ess) offers that service, he/she gains status/validity/importance in the eyes of that Krean.

And why ever would you want to use the simple method? ;)


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 11 September 2008, 03:00:11
Vow, who said anything about more deities? I just mentioned "spiritual powers"/guardians. They only have 2 deities, both of whom are female (and plus this Creator figure)

"Would these saints perhaps be long dead venerated Krean who are now held up with a specialty of sorts?" Some of them would be. But again that's only a subset. There can be many more varieties of "positive spiritual powers" - afterall we have dozens of evil ones, ranging from demons to ghosts etc. The precise content is not important for now.

"It seems to me that the Krean deities are simply presences used only in times of trouble. Otherwise, they serve little purpose. To me, it would be simpler to have the Krean be their own gods as they seem to consider themselves that anyway..."

Well, if you but let me wedge a word in ;) I'll get there. This is only the overview. Also, not all religions have to follow the same format. Also, you don't need to fear someone in order to have faith in them or to pray to them.

also, with the Krean it is actually not quite the way you suggested. They usually pray to their gods when things are going well, to express their gratitude. If they have a problem, they try to solve it themselves. If that doesn't work, well you can always try to enlist the help of these "handymen/guardian entities" in the spiritual marketplace ;)


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 11 September 2008, 03:16:36
Oh, I think I should make it clear that I do appreciate the comments! They did give me something to think about btw (if the Krean pantheon were to expanded by adding the children of the high goddesses, who would they mate WITH? Or no mates necessary?)

Btw, my replies are often terse/brusque these days as I am short on time. Please do keep up the commentary - I discover more about what I have in mind when I am trying to refute you guys :P


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 11 September 2008, 04:21:13
Who has 'authority' under aspects of reality beyond Ankriss's and Arlea's spheres of control?

Does the first wave control them or did it just put them there for others to manipulate freely?


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 13 September 2008, 19:37:21
(1) Will answer Decipher & Azhira's qs under Gods Overview

(2) Added two sections under Beliefs; next to come = "Ramifications of the Krean Creation Myth"


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Jude the Archivist on 17 September 2008, 13:00:01
Hey, just wanted to say that this Krean religion is great, very intriguing and unique. Just wondered....what set of morals does this religion have if the gods are seen as equal?

One wouldn't need to try and do good deeds, people would be no sense of guilt if they did wrong, no fear of wrath from the gods. But this might just mean that the Krean people create their own morality without the influence of religion. But then would this mean that it was a more selfish and egotistical society? Or would it become just free from corruption of the clergy? Sorry I'm just rambling on....too much coffee....  :)


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Rakshiri on 17 September 2008, 18:35:05
Quote
Quote from Artimidor: personally I miss unique concepts a bit as far as religion is concerned. You know, we have typical Gods in Santharia, in Aeruillin, in the Kuglimz lands, in Nybelmar etc. So why not try our hands on a more, say, relaxed, more saint-based hobbit system? (end of quote)

Hrmph, the Korweynites would have the head of such an heretic opinion...

Hello, Coren. I think it would be interesting to put Kreán religion alongside the Korweynite Aseyan and Murmillion faith as the third large, historic culture in Nybelmar. Maybe Smith could give some input. It would help to shape a bigger picture.

The both aforementioned nations essentially based their whole being into the fulfillment of religious prophecy and the supremacy of their faith over others (wiping the floor with each other in the process). The Korweynites think they have to do good because otherwise their gods will fail creating a paradise, the Murmillion think reality is humbug anyway.

How and why the Kreán came to their opinion would thus be quite interesting (maybe tied in pieces and basic myths into the backstory of Nybelmar with Memnon and this mystical bloody times before history). It's rather nihilistic if they think they can't do anything about what the gods might do and don't care to. Incidently this is the fundamental difference between ancient polytheism and "modern" religions.



Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Gwai'ayia Quillouf on 18 September 2008, 02:15:34
Coren said:
Quote
They did give me something to think about btw (if the Krean pantheon were to expanded by adding the children of the high goddesses, who would they mate WITH? Or no mates necessary?)

Here's a thought that could explain why the Krean's worship their twin goddess anyway as well as possibably explaining (if mythologically) how the Krean's came to be "Gods amoung Men."  Written in story form because that's how it occured to me.

Once long ago, there was the Creator.  And He WAS ALL THERE WAS.  Then he Thought, and the first wave arose from the termoils of His Thought.  From this wave arose, Arléá Goddess of the Waters, and Ankriss Goddess of the Earth.  Many also came, and many things came to be, Arléá and Ankriss were the only beings of their kind.  At first they were pleased with what had arose from the First Wave caused by the Thought of the Him.  So pleased were they with what they saw that they were pleased to think that they had created togther all they saw, and they forgot the Creator casting a viel of forgetfulness between Him and they.   For a long time they forgot and the two goddess were pleased by all their was.  Taking pleasure in adding beauty to what their was until they truely became the creators of many things...yet their power had no forgotten where it had come from that it had come from the All, from the HE.  Thus it came to pass that the more Arléá and Ankriss created the less they were able to take pleasure in what they had made.

For with each thing they created the more the power remembered that They had once been One, that though now two She's the power had once been One He.  Yet, the Goddesses had willed themselves to forget, and forgot they had, but now it came to pass that they were lonely for they knew not what.

It came to pass that on a certain day the Goddess were walking with each other in the garden they had made and they came upon a pair of birds coupling together in the air.  It appeared pleasurable to them and each lamented that they had not an opposite with whom they could take such pleasure.   As the wind blew the waters of the sea upon their places, and the earth sang her melody, each looked upon the other and thought Are we not opposite?  Can we not as opposite take such pleasures as the birds do?  So it was that each looked on desire at her opposite and they fell to loving.  The Goddesses, opposite and equals, coupled with each other as the beast of the field had done before them.   So great was their passon for each other and so great was their pleasure with this new thing they had discovered that for many years their lips didn't live the others lips, and their bodies didn't leave the others body.   Their pleasure was so great and their passion so fierce that all the world burned with their lust. 

The fire of their lust burned fierce upon the earth, until it to became a separate thing, and so Lust, Desire, and Passion was born.  The Fire of Lust did not destroy the world as some fires do but rather joined with every thing it touched.  From this joining of Lust and Nature the spirits were born, the demi-gods, and all the powers lesser yet equal to the pair whose lust had created them.

For time unknown it continued as such, sometimes the goddess left each other to do work and to take pleasure in the desire such seperation created, and each time the goddessses coupled togther the Lust Fire was created again creating more spirits and demi-gods.

Yet after a time, Ankriss and Arléá grew tired of Lust.   While they still found pleasure in sometimes dwellling in their lust it came to give them no more pleasure then creating had done.   The Goddess, disconent, parted from each other and once again longed for something they didn't even know.

While the Arléá was swimming amoung the waters, she spied some dolphines with their pups, and she took pleasure at the sight.  Swimming amoung them she obserserved how tender each mother was to her young, and how tender the male mated with female.  No lust was to be found amoung this mating, just a tenderness for which Arléá had no name.  And Arléá's body longed for such a experience as her mind longed for a name for such a thing.   She also longed for a pup of her own towards which she too could show a tenderness.   Once again she longed for an opposite to do as the dolphines did, and once again she remember Ankriss and the pleasures they had experienced before.   

Meanwhile Ankriss observed a similiar sight in between the eagles who mate for life, and each Goddess once again sought her opposite to re-create what they had seen.

Once more the Goddesses coupled with each other, and took pleasures within the secret of each other.  This time they did not go to loving with fire but rather with earth and water, each cautiously taking time to explore the other tenderly seeking to create a height of passion in each other that neither had experienced before.  From their tenderness, Love was born and given a name.   Like the time of their lust, each did not leave each other, but rather then a fire burning then fading then burning, their loving was like a spark that grew steadily as they each roused passion within the other.  So perfect was their loving that their powers melded and combined and each found themselves with child.

So it would be with time that each would bring forth the perfect representation of themselves, and as time passed the goddess children would join like their parents and create the perfect race: The Krean, they who are the completion of both supreme goddess, their equals, and their children.


Feel free to ignore or use.


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 18 March 2013, 18:24:44
Look what I found! An entry into which considerable thought has gone and which stands just a few steps short of completion. I wonder why I left it to dry for four years.

I located the earlier drafts on my computer, but my short-hand notes on the missing sections no longer mean anything to me! So I wanted to finish the entry with what I *do* remember before my memory of it erodes further. :P

Will round it up tonight. Better to have something on the site than nothing, I suppose. :)


EDIT: I want to portray Ancient Krean religion as an arrogant and somewhat self-righteous philosophy (the Ancient Krean are meant to represent an "Atlantean" civilisation anyway). Then it can be the backdrop against which the more humane philosophies of the Krean monks developed.

All the entries I have been posting recently are groundwork for Child of Spring. The aim is to write the entry on the monks. But to do so, I first need to walk through certain steps in my own mind. The Krean Arcane Pyramid; Magic of the Priestesses of Ankriss; Ancient Krean Religion; Krean Monks overview; Way of Wind and Water; Magic of the Krean Monks...


Title: Re: Krean Religion: Brainstorming
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 19 March 2013, 06:18:26
Argh. This is frustrating. I *know* that some time, somewhere in the last ten years I wrote a short blurb on the origins of the Krean religion (more specifically: on the origins of Ankriss). Something about their ancestors running away from Menemronn the Chosen's armies and hiding in the west. But I can't for the life of me remember the name of the woman who led the exodus - the one who became the first High Priestess. And I can't find anything through a forum search.


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 19 March 2013, 19:58:52
19/03/2013: Done! Whew.

1. The Overview is a bit long, but it all seemed relevant and necessary!

2. Gods Overview is very sketchy, but I can't think of anything else. I don't remember what I had in mind for Ankriss and Arlea. Maybe inspiration will strike in the years to come. :)


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 20 March 2013, 17:27:35
Coren, I will read it as soon as possible, as soon as my head feels free enough to deal with Krean Religion :)


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 20 March 2013, 17:50:02
Thanks Talia! It's easy to read. Every sentence is short enough that it can see its feet when it looks down. I promise.


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 March 2013, 04:43:23
Just had a first look, and there are some things already pretty obvious, which need to be fixed from what I see, Coren:

You have three paragraphs double in your entry, apparently word for word. These are the first three paragraphs in the Belief Outlines, which are also part of the Overview. Aside from that the Overview is indeed extremely lengthy, longer than the first part of the Belief Outline, and that should never be the case - as the Belief Outline is supposed to contain the details which the Overview is supposed to only sketch. The Overview should be as short as possible, only a teaser if you so want, a teaser to read the rest, and provide just the basic information without getting into any details. Right now that's not the case, so I recommend to move things around a bit and adjust the Overview shorter and more to the point to the point.


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 30 March 2013, 04:40:08
Done, Arti. Overview shortened. What do you think of the content though? :)


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 30 March 2013, 15:50:03
Won't get to a closer look before Tuesday, as until then I need to work on the Treasure Shoals to use my vacation time. Stay tuned!  :cool:


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 April 2013, 04:35:41
Ok, finally had a closer look here, and it's definitely a very interesting approach, so aura +1 at any rate! :grin: Some parts are still a bit unclear, could be more specific etc. nevertheless, so let's have some basic comments:

- Overview: Well, it's still not way we usually do it, because now you have just one paragraph up there, which however is exactly the same as further down. So basically you shed light there on one aspect only, and it's just a copy. To repeat the idea of the Overview: It is meant as a very brief summary of key points, and while this is one key point, it's only an excerpt, nothing more. You should be aware that if a person knows absolutely nothing about Ancient Kreans and their belief that the absolute essentials should be all in the Overview.

I would suggest to add to the Overview e.g. that the Krean are seen as mythical figures and that all contact has been lost since the Year of Darkness - just to set these guys into context. And a hint at their creation myth in a simple sentence. A word on ethics, and so on.

- The Creation myth is strikingly elven with the mirror principle, the awakening of the One and thus becoming many. I don't know why the myths are so similar and what the connection to elven philosophy is, but there's a lot there. Even the multiverse thingy. So there could at least be a reference or some scholarly note I'd say.

It looks to me as if there are similar roots to elven philosophy, but that the Ancient Kreans apparently give it their own spin, which eventually results in a form of hubris. In a way they seem to believe that they came from the Gods and now have developed into something even better, perhaps with the creative impulse still in them, so that they are creators of themselves, and in consequence that whatever Gods there might be, they essentially lose their importance. The whole thing sounds in its final stage rather Nietzschean, almost like the "Übermensch" concept - man transcending himself and what he came from, to develop into something else. This - at Nietzsche - in its core is actually quite a positive development (at least this is intended, man as an artist of life), but easy to abuse of course, see Hitler, who used Nietzsche as an instrument. I wonder if similar things happened with the Ancient Kreans as well.

- The Ethics part is short and doesn't really elaborate. By which rules can man live according to this form of religion? What does self-interest mean practically? Individual self-interest or self-interest as a race/tribe? Sounds like a rather arrogant type of ethics. Is there some kind of categorical imperative that enables living in a community? What place have other individuals or races/tribes? Lots of questions there which aren't really touched as of yet.

(And as I read on you in fact mention "arrogance" as their possible downfall... *haha* Still, more could be elaborated in this part already to get a better glimpse of the culture. Actually, it's a bit strange to find some elaborating on that in the section called "Origins"... This is more "Belief Outlines" or "Ethics".)

- Gods Overview: So how many "Gods" are believed to exist? Is there an unlimited amount? Wouldn't the proper term be "spirit" for these kinds of Gods? Is there a creative principle still at work in them? Do they create something? Or do they exist like people, just in a spiritual realm alongside people, like pets? And what about these "demonic powers" you mention? Are these also "Gods"? Are they fighting the others? What's their role in the whole thing?


Title: Re: Krean Religion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 07 April 2013, 17:27:10
Thanks for the comments Art! Definitely lots to think about - you're spot on as always! I will be on leave for 2 days between April 19-21; will work on it then. :)