Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Deklitch Hardin on 31 May 2009, 11:05:13



Title: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 31 May 2009, 11:05:13
Thanks to Capher and Garret for their assistance and advice.

Suggestions by Seeker are integrated in yellow! I have finally gotten around to asking Capher about those other questions, I'll be integrating his replies in teal.

I am using red to make my additional changes to this entry in order to correct the errors I saw in it.

Miscellaneous > Weapons and Armour > Axes > Sengren

Overview
The pride of the former Kyranian kingdom’s arsenal is the Sengren, a double-bladed axe in which all noble youth of Kyrania were trained. Effective as a weapon against cavalry and infantry and able to pierce the strongest armour, the Sengren is known for its lightweight design. Today, the Sengren is still used, most notably amongst the famous Caelum Guard, however most of the techniques practiced and developed during the time of the ancient kingdom have been forgotten.

Description
The Sengren is a double-bladed axe that is made completely out of steel. One of these blades is large, thick and strong. This blade looks like a triangle, with the top of the triangle cut off and the base bending outwards much like a standard working axe. The other blade is crafted in the shape of a crescent moon and is sharpened to a razor edge. Above the top of the axe is the tip of this crescent blade, hard enough to pierce the strongest armour and to cut through flesh. The handle of the Sengren is covered by two strips of leather from the Kyrattin cattle to enable the wielder to have a good strong grip on the weapon.

At one ped in length and two hebs in weight, the Sengren can be effectively wielded in either or both hands. The most noted variation of the weapon is an even smaller and lighter version for use by youths and females. This version weighs one heb and is well under one ped in length. While some weaponsmiths made variations of the Sengren that were larger and heavier, these were deemed to be too bulky to be effective against mounted enemies. Due to it being made of the one piece of metal, the Sengren can only be destroyed by melting it down.

During times of war, another version of the Sengren was produced. In this version, the handle of the Sengren was made of Eu'Oak this version was used by those commoners who showed some promise and appeared to be well suited to the army, that is they were broad of shoulder.

Usage
The Sengren was once the pride of the Kyranian arsenal and was used by infantry units in the Kyranian army. This axe is too small to swing effectively at ground units from horseback, however it could be used as a secondary weapon against another knight if that knight's sword had been lost. During the heyday of the Kyranian kingdom, all noble youths of the kingdom were trained in the use of the Sangren.

In addition to its use in the armies of Kyrania, the Sengren was also used in the Kyresk and the Kyranian Manhood Ceremonies. In the Kyresk, combat occurred between siblings to break ties when determining the heir of the noble Kyranian houses. During manhood ceremonies, noble youths engaged in Sengren competitions. In both the Kyresk and manhood ceremonies, the fights were to first blood. On succeeding in the manhood ceremony and the Kyresk, the successful Kyranian would etch their family mark into the pommel of their axe, signifying ownership of the axe and the continuation of the family line.

The Eu'oak handled version of the Sengren was used by commoners when drafted into the armies of Kyrania. The wooden handle made it easier for the commoners to etch their family mark into the pommel of the Sengren. These commoners formed the detachments to units of swordsmen and wielders of other weapons. The specialist Sengren Infantry unit, however, was made up of nobles wielding the full steel version of the Sengren. After the wars ended, those commoners who survived took their Sengrens with them and they had pride of place in their farms, inns and other places of work. In the farms, they were often used as farm implements, and handed down through the generations, until they fell into disrepair.

Today, the Sengren is used on a much smaller scale, most notably in the well known Caelum Guard. Since the fall of the ancient kingdom of Kyrania, many of the techniques designed for the Sengren have been lost to time. Regardless of when this axe is used, it is never used in conjunction with a shield as the the use of a shield prevents the Sengren being used to its full potential.

Fighting Style
The Sengren is a weapon for warriors on foot that can be used either one handed or two handed and is effective against both cavalry and infantry units. Most of the techniques have been forgotten and died out since the fall of the Kyranian kingdom due to the difficulty in finding and employing a trainer. The following are some techniques that are still known of today.

In a field against charging cavalry, a skilled practitioner could duck low, swing, and use the large part of the Sengren to cut through a horse's leg. After this, the user would swing the axe the other way, twirling the blade and using the crescent side to cut the tendons of another horse as it passed by. These two techniques were developed against calvary.

When used in battle against infantry, the Sengren is effective at both attack and defence. For example against troops wielding broadswords, the larger and heavier blade takes the opponent's blows, while the crescent blade catches the blade and tears the weapon from the owner's grasp. The tip of the crescent extends above the main axe just long enough to pierce armour and flesh.

Unfortunately, the Sengren does not have any defences against ranged weapons and wielders of this axe would have to rely on the support of the other weapon wielders in the army when facing archers, crossbowmen or similar troop types.

Origin/History
The Sengren was designed and forged by Sengren "Ren" Thromgolin, one of the descendants of Cyroan Thromgolin. The weapon was named after its designer. His younger brother, Cyrobaltt "Cyro" Thromgolin, developed techniques when using the Sengren to make it effective against infantry and cavalry. Together with their older brother, Gilden "Gil" Thromgolin, they revolutionised offensive and defensive warfare in Kyrania and became known as the 'Scions of Cyroan'. As the Kingdom of Kyrania progressed through its history, wielders of the Sengren were used in varying roles on the battlefield, sometimes within specialised units and sometimes as detachments to units of swordsmen within the Kyranian army. The Sengren units played an important part in all of the conflicts in which the Kyranians were engaged up to the fall of the ancient kingdom.

A common belief amongst the royal family of Kyrania was that if a Sengren was placed under the bed, a male offspring was assured. Tradition has it that this belief dates back to King Cyroden Gilden who forgot that it was under his bed one night before sleeping on the bed with his wife, Queen Barutta Dawatte. In fulness of time, they produced a son and heir. Since then, most members of the Kyranian royal family supposedly sleep with a Sengren under their bed. It is also reported that some other members of the nobility have also followed this practice.

Since the fall of the kingdom, most of the secret techniques of the Sengren have been lost and the axe is not as popular as it once was. The most notable exception to this is within the famed Caelum Guard which still trains in and uses the Sengren amongst other weapons.

When Sengren "Ren" Thromgolin first created the Sengren, his weaponsmith created a version of the axe which was presented to Ren at a formal ceremony. The axe was made completely out of steel, and had carvings up and down the handle representing his family lline, a stag's head with a crown between the antlers. Both blades also had similar etchings. A jeweller attached an amethyst stone to the pommel of the axe.

On the death of Ren, the weapon found its way into the royal family, and for a while was used as the king's weapon in war. More often than not, this required the pommel stone to be replaced, with an amethyst each time. In time, the weapon became a symbol of the royal family of Kyrania, and resided above the throne in Caelum, with the king using a standard Sengren when Kyrania went off to war. Nowadays, the Sengren still holds pride of place in Caelum, a reminder to all of the weapon of choice of the ancient Kyranian kingdom.

EDIT: My image of the Sengren has now been removed :D


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Seeker on 04 June 2009, 05:35:18
I love to see weapons described. So this is cool  :thumbup:.  Great first draft! 
Since I am an artist I think visually so I have a couple of questions and suggestions.

1)  What shape is the heavier blade on the axe.  Is it also crescent shaped or is it something else?
2) There is no description of the handle, I am assuming it is also steel?  Is it usually wrapped in leather for handling?  Is there anything special about the pommel?
3)  It might be interesting if there were special markings, carvings, symbols in the axe. Perhaps to show ownership.  Or perhaps the axes used in the manhood ceremony had something special about their look.
4)  Are there any famous Sengren Axes that are neamed?  Did Thromgolin have a special Axe that could be described? A jewel encrusted Axe for the King or something cool like that. 

These last two are just ideas to get you thinking about how can bring the look of the Axe from just ordinary to special and unique.  Think about what you would want the Axe to look like if someone drew a pic of it.   ;)


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 04 June 2009, 18:41:31
I love to see weapons described. So this is cool  :thumbup:.  Great first draft! 
Since I am an artist I think visually so I have a couple of questions and suggestions.

Thanks for the encouragement, Seeker ... I tried to think of it visually as well

1) What shape is the heavier blade on the axe.  Is it also crescent shaped or is it something else?

Good question ... something I had never thought of ... I suppose I just figured that it would be the standard axe blade. I'll put something in about it into the next draft of it.

2) There is no description of the handle, I am assuming it is also steel?  Is it usually wrapped in leather for handling?  Is there anything special about the pommel?

Yes, the whole axe is made of steel. I never thought about it being wrapped in leather, but it would make sense for it to be wrapped in leather. By pommel, do you mean the part where the user of the axe wields it, or do you mean the part of the axe between the grip and the blades, or do you mean something else? In any case, I'll address these issues in the next draft as well.

3) It might be interesting if there were special markings, carvings, symbols in the axe. Perhaps to show ownership.  Or perhaps the axes used in the manhood ceremony had something special about their look.

Another good point, and something else I had never considered. I'll have to check with Garret/Capher if such markings are likely or possible with the Kyranians.

4) Are there any famous Sengren Axes that are neamed?  Did Thromgolin have a special Axe that could be described? A jewel encrusted Axe for the King or something cool like that.

Once again another good point. In the Kyranian men entry and in the information forwarded to me by Capher, I haven't seen that information, but I'll see if I can find any such infomration, and if not, I suppose I could always add it in, couldn't I?  :grin:

These last two are just ideas to get you thinking about how can bring the look of the Axe from just ordinary to special and unique. Think about what you would want the Axe to look like if someone drew a pic of it. ;)

Thank you for the feedback on the Sengren, Seeker, a lot of good ideas that will improve the axe. Based on what both Capher and Garret have told me about the Sengren, I can picture it in my mind. My skills at artwork though ... are rather lacking (at uni, in our Visual Art subject for teaching, everyone's final piece was displayed in the lab for others to view ... apart from mine).

I'll get to integrating your suggestions straight away, and see if Capher/Garret have further suggestions on it as well.

 :thanx:


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Seeker on 04 June 2009, 21:41:05
By pommel I mean the end knob at the base of the handle that keeps your hands from slipping off the end.  For a sword it is used to balance the blade. For an axe it can be just decorative or very plain.  It may just be simply rounded, or spiked, or flat.  A famous axe may have a jewelled pommel or carved one.  etc.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Sivartius on 05 June 2009, 02:04:54
One thing, more of a question than a comment. A Sengren would be unlikely to be used as a throwing weapon right? So how would a Sengren wielder deal with archers and other ranged units. Would they just charge and hope they get close before they get shot?


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Seeker on 05 June 2009, 03:30:16
Thats a good question Sivartius, however this is an entry on the Axe only  not the whole Kyranian arsenal of weapons.  Check out the Kyranian tribe entry for lots of other Kyranian details.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 June 2009, 03:37:48
*hehe* Well put, Seeker ;)


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 05 June 2009, 03:55:44
By pommel I mean the end knob at the base of the handle that keeps your hands from slipping off the end.  For a sword it is used to balance the blade. For an axe it can be just decorative or very plain.  It may just be simply rounded, or spiked, or flat.  A famous axe may have a jewelled pommel or carved one.  etc.

I see, thanks for that explanation Seeker. I'll come back with someothing on that.

Yes, the Sengren would be too heavy to be used as a thrown weapon, Silvartius. A Sengren wielder would probably be cut down in their tracks by a decently trained archer ... or at least badly injured by them. However, the Kyranians did not just rely on the Sengrens in their military forces ... there were something like six branches of the Kyranian military force, and they had a variety of different weapons. The Kyranian men entry provides further details on the military forces available to the Kyranians and Garret currently has an entry under review on the full military forces of the Kyranians.

I'd expect that units of Sengren wielders would rely on the other units, trained with other weapons, to prevent them from being destroyed before coming face to face with ranged units on the field of battle.

I hope that answers your query, Sivartius.

Should I include something about their tactics against ranged units in the entry on the Sengren?

I also found the following from the Wikipedia entry on axes ... it is dealing with superstitions ... specifically superstitions dealing with metal axes ... I wonder if any of it has a place in an entry on Sengren axes ... perhaps in the history section.

Quote
Steel axes were important in superstition as well. A thrown axe could keep off a hailstorm, sometimes an axe was placed in the crops, with the cutting edge to the skies to protect the harvest against bad weather. An upright axe buried under the sill of a house would keep off witches, while an axe under the bed would assure male offspring.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Seeker on 06 June 2009, 10:00:29
Deklitch, I would like to offer to illustrate your axe for you.  I wouldn't be able to get to it for a couple of weeks.  I will probably draw Grendals Axe too near the same time.  I would like to draw it alone (no people or anything)  similar to how I did the Forsaken Blade.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 06 June 2009, 11:47:54
Yes please Seeker, that would be greatly appreciated. Whenever you are able to do it would be fine with me. :) That sounds like a great idea to me.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 07 June 2009, 04:09:13
What about variations that make the handle of the axe out of wood Deklitch? It seems to me that this would otherwise be a very expensive weapon to produce.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 08 June 2009, 19:10:59
What about variations that make the handle of the axe out of wood Deklitch? It seems to me that this would otherwise be a very expensive weapon to produce.

Thanks for your comments, Valan.

Capher indicated to me that the weapon was always made completely out of metal. Capher said that there were a couple of reasons for this.
1) For the axe to have a wooden handle, it would have to be much bigger to be as useful on the field. That would mean additional weight, slower reaction times, etc.
2) With the whole weapon being made of metal, it was virtually indestructible, that it would have to be melted for it to be destroyed.

Garrett's intention with the axe is that it is only used by nobles. So, while yes, it would be more expensive, the nobles would have the sans to throw away on them.

I have still yet to contact Capher about the issues that Seeker raised earlier about the Sengren ... I'll do so now.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Grendal Thornfist on 08 June 2009, 22:15:04
So if it is mostly used by nobles, would it be mass produced for the military.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 08 June 2009, 22:52:23
yes ... all noble children of the Kyranians (male and female) received training with weapons ... the Sengren, a bow and one other weapon ... they worked in groups. When they reached the age of maturity, the noble chidlren were required to serve in the military for a set period of time. Those who showed particular promise in the weapon continued on training it, those who didn't, dropped it after a while.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Grendal Thornfist on 08 June 2009, 22:55:23
Gotcha must have missed that part my apologies.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 11 June 2009, 18:16:47
Sorry if I came across as snippy in my last comment, Grendal, it wasn't meant to sound that way.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Grendal Thornfist on 12 June 2009, 03:35:58
If you sounded snippy I missed that to. I just did a quick read through on the Kryanian tribe so I may have missed the noble/military thing.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Capher on 12 June 2009, 06:10:36
I looked at your picture of what the Sengren looked liked Dek but it is slightly wrong according to the description I gave you. Perhaps I did not make my description clear enough. Below I will try and describe it better.

Your picture of the other side of the axe,(the one with the crecent) has it connected to the main handle by a small piece of metal. That is not how the crescent part of the axe was constructed.

The picture of the crescent is all wrong. Think of the crescent as the crescent of the moon. The solid part of the crescent is part of the handle of the axe while the two points of the crescent stick out on the other side.

There is no small piece of metal connecting the crescent part of the axe. The crescent is part of the handle and the hardened tip sticks out beyond the axe itself.

The blade on the other side should be more rounded, half moon shape with a sharp edge and very thick bodied.

I wish I could send you a pic of what I envisioned, however I am very computer illiterate and I do not have a scanner.

I hope that perhaps Seeker you can imagine and draw what I have described. I will keep an eye on this thread to see how Dek is doing. So far he is doing great!


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 12 June 2009, 06:21:25
Thank you very much for this information, Capher. It is very much appreciated. I was having a lot of trouble working out exactly how the crescent part of the axe was supposed to look, and be joined to the rest of the Sengren. This helps me greatly.

I think I have integrated everyone's comments into this entry so far ... so I suppose I should set up cookies and milk to attract new revisions of it.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Capher on 12 June 2009, 06:24:34
I edited my reply to try and help you a bit more Dek. I hope it helps.

Keep up the great work.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Grendal Thornfist on 12 June 2009, 06:38:07
Still sounds a bit confusing to me. Ye mean like a lochaber axe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochaber_axe) kinda?


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Seeker on 12 June 2009, 09:49:59
I agree, this is still unclear.  However I am intrigued.  Here are 4 examples.  Which one comes closer to what we are talking about.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Capher on 12 June 2009, 23:52:20
#4 is exactly what I envisioned. Can you imagine now what devestation that kind of axe would have on both calvary and infantry?

Unfortunately it has no defence against ranged weapons. It was meant for close bloody slash and hack combat,


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 14 June 2009, 19:30:28
I think I've integrated everyone's comments into this entry.

Just to answer those outstanding questions of Valan, Seeker and others ...

Capher suggested that Eur'Oak be used for the Sengrens used by commoners drafted into the army to use Sengrens. Hopefully, this also responds to the concern regarding the cost of mass producing the weapon in times of war.

With regards to the Sengren used by the weapon's creator, Capher suggested the pommel of it would have a precious metal of some kind, and that it would mostly be on display above the Kyranian throne. In addition, when youths were successful in the manhood ceremony, they got to carve their family and personal marks into the Sengren's handle.

I also included a bit of a myth regarding the Sengren with regards to heirs.

I welcome any further comments, and as per normal, will leave cookies and milk for anyone who stops by.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Bard Judith on 14 June 2009, 22:46:30
Hmmm - well, I guess Capher should know :)

My thought upon reading the description was something at once more brutal and more elegant - a simple crescent embedded in its haft, in its very design suggesting its purpose of cleaving.....  

Anyhow, I did a quick sketch to show what was in my mind's eye.  Perhaps it's not the Sengren, but it might be its primitive precursor?  Or another weapon altogether?   If anyone likes it, let me know....

p.s. Seeker, I love your design for number 1 - it looks almost as if it could become a stylized fish....something appropriate for a ducal holding on the sea, perhaps?  Halberds for the guards at a very wealthy Baveran temple?   The favored weapon of the piratical and semi-mythical Sea Snakes?  :)


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 15 June 2009, 00:28:54
Hmmm... I wonder if we could change that metal crescent into some type of tusk/horn, Judith, and if so, it could be a crude Ice Tribe tool/weapon.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 June 2009, 04:19:41
Some mini-things:

- In the description I see an inflationary use of the word "shape", could be adjusted a bit:

Quote
This blade is in the shape of a triangle, with the top of the triangle cut off and the base bending outwards much like a standard working axe. The other blade is crafted in the shape of a crescent moon and is sharpened to a razor edge. Above the top of the axe is the tip of this crescent shaped blade, hard enough to pierce the strongest armour and to cut through flesh.

- Here's something to fix I guess:

Quote
This axe is too small to swing effectively at ground units from horseback, however it could be used as a secondary weapon against another knight if that knight's sword had been lost.

What else is there to say? That it's practically a perfect Weapons entry in every respect. There existed a lot of material on the Sengren already and that was all used now and give the weapon it's own entry, which was improved with cool stuff here and there. So it's all there, and well done!

I'd say, I give it the upload arrow then :)


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 16 June 2009, 05:28:09
Both of those have now been attended to, Arti.

Thanks also to everyone who stopped by and reviewed this entry. Thanks for all the advice, encouragement, suggestions and support with this. Thanks especially needs to go to Capher for being available via PM to guide me through the process behind the scenes.

Here everyone, have some cookies. :D


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Seeker on 16 June 2009, 05:36:33
+1 aura, Thanks for being so patient and willing to incorporate ideas. I will get to the pic in a couple of weeks after my business trip.  :thumbup: :thumbup:


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Capher on 21 June 2009, 14:20:56
I cannot wait to see it Seeker.

Dek, great job!  :thumbup: Thank you bringing my vision to life.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 03 June 2010, 08:42:35
I've made the changes I wanted to make to this entry. They were all in the one paragraph, as you can see. They are also coloured red.


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 04 June 2010, 01:14:49
Can't say as there's anything wrong with it. Let's see this up in the next update, shall we? :grin:


Title: Re: Sengren, Kyranian Axe
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 June 2010, 03:27:15
Just a few basic fixes that don't turn the whole entry upside down as I can see, so I'll add that in next update!  :cool: