Santharian Development

:grin:.. This wasn't really planned, but since I am working on an entry for this wonderfull creature, really vividly had an image in mind, and am in the process of brushing up my photoshop skills for a coming university project..

This is what's coming out, so I thought I'd share it with you guys, see what feedback I get from the pro's, hehe.

Obviously, there are still some photographic elements in there that need to be removed, ie some of the saddle. I'm in the process of doing that.

Some Techies:

> The fleece, while I gave it the first layer as it is, I was going to give it more detail which would make the hairs look thinner. Then again though, this being a creature that will be outside a lot, trudging through mud and snow, I thought the thicker variety would fit that more rather than thin, fine kempt fleece?

> I haven't quite gotten the hang of the fleece overlapping the reigns yet.. still working on that

> I won't be able to make a background for this.. I'm utterly useless at BGs ^^

A bit of background: This is a heavy, bulky pack-mount which will be hearded by some tribe, with their main purpose being transport of goods, not so much riding considering their slow movement speed, and possibly for their muscular meat. While they may be found herding out in the wild, most of them are reared by the folk. Given their long life times, exceltent strength, and calm nature the folk have grown quite close to them, decorating them with colours and what little jewlery this self-sustained farming tribe may have.

Anyways, hope you enjoy what part of it is there ;)

Jonael

Looks like a promising start, yet there's still quite a bit that needs to be done. I don't know how much digital drawing background you have, though the devil's in the detail :) The more time you put into a picture and the details and know where to put your energies, the better it becomes. And the less experience you have, the more time you need... So yeah, good start, yet too early to call, I'd say. Just go ahead with it! :D

I agree with Art.  Go for it.  I like the front of the beast, nicely done.  Obviously this is a pic in the middle of being drawn so I am not going to bother pointing out areas that need work.  It is looking good.

You appear to be talented enough to attempt a background as well.  Place it on another layer and it can be simply removed if it doesn't turn  out right.  Keep it simple at first.

Cheers Arti and Seeker, the encouraging feedback 's really much appreciated.

I'll go on with it, and iron the devil out of the detail after that ^^ hehe

:grin: Not so sure about the background yet, seeker, I'm so flattered you think I could pull it off. Who knows, maybe at the very end I'll give it a shot.. I'm thinking a snow covered slope with occasional shrubbery sticking out.. that should allow for a lot of white cheating, haha.

I can't wait to see the finished picture! It is turning out quite well, Jonael!

Yay Jonael!  I'm impressed - didn't know you could draw at all....    this is looking really cool!

If you need a bit of 'help' with the background, I don't mind a cooperative effort - just let me know.   If you do go ahead with snow, remember that it has blue and pink and purple shadows, not just pure white... :)

^^ Thanks Kalina for the encouragement, glad you like it so far


Yup, so there is, I'll make sure I use a multitude of colours.. Haha, you saying so just reminded me of "The girl with the Pearl Earring" movie, where Vermeer points out that clouds aren't white, but a beautifull explosion of grey, blue, yellow and pink... haha, dunno if anyone's seen that movie, I thought it was a nice watch :grin:

So, I played around a little more with it, with two main focuses in mind:

1. As suggested by Artimidor, focus on detail. I made use of a variety of techniques, of which I hope to figure the better ones through your feedbacks :grin:

2. Especially with the saddle, incorporating some of the traditional colours and styles of garments of the tribe who herd these animals (still and entry in progress, but with a heavy tibetan inspiration ^^)

So, what's happened so far:

[] Attempted a new way of painting the animal's fur, giving it more detail without loosing that 'wild' 'dirty' texture. Gave more realistic shading to the roundness of its buldging shoulders/back

[] Worked out, what I think looks like a better way of showing the fur overlapping the reigns

[] This part of the saddle has been completed with the appropriate colours and patterns. I went for an orange/leather/dark red scheme. Also added much more detail to the cloth, wrinkles, highlights, folds..

Well, that's that for now, really looking forward to advice and feedback from you's all, to see what styles and techniques to continue with.. it always really helps :grin:

Seriously Jonael, this is really good.  :clap2: I don't know how long it is taking you, but you will get faster with practice.  I love the saddle and the cloth, folds etc.  Very realistic.  (I know you are using pictures and photos to work with, I do the same thing.)

Keep doing what you are doing.  And don't take the easy way out and have Judith do your background (She is so nice to offer).  You can do it really.  A snowy background will look good and will be relatively easy.  We will help you along if it doesnt turn out right the first time.

The fur looks great as well. Take out that red line and finish this guy. :thumbup:

Welcome to the artist forum, Artist Jonael.  +1 for trying something new and succeeding.

I concur!  It's wonderful to see that we're going to have another artist in our fold....     I know that I learned something from every picture I've ever done, even the rejected ones.  This is looking awesome already, with a lot of improvement from #1 to #2 version.

Aura point from me as well,
hugs
Judith

:grin: Cheers Seeker and Judy,

It means so much to me that you both enjoy my work and apreciate my progress. It's fantastically encouraging for me to work on and practice. Aye Seeker, as you suggested I will go on and try the background in due time myself too.. Once again though, thank you so much for offering your help though Judy, much appreciated.

As for the time it takes me.. Its not actually all that long, it's just that I don't have much time to sit down and have a crack at it due to my summer job taking up a large time of my day, and leaving me devastated at the end.. I'd say ther was 2hrs work between between #1 and #2.. long time I expect, but I do feel that as I get used to techniques and practice them more often the time taken decreases much.

:grin: I must say I'm truly flattered that you'd consider me as one of yous. *hold back a tear or two of joy* Thank you both with all my heart.

Anyhoo, Jonael rumbles off down a corridor to his little Aprrentice's office, mumbling vividly to himself and already laying out a fresh palette of colours in his mind..

Yeah! What's with that other part behind the red line, Jonael? Or did you think: Red line, do not cross! :lol: Anyway, this seems to coming along really nice... Hope you've got the time to get the whole fellow done, looks very promising indeed! :D

Haha, the red line.. It is just a dividing line so that I have a reference up to which to work.. Seeing as it's been a long time since I last painted in photoshop, I wanted to try out different styles and methods out first, see what the Pros here thought worked best, and then go at the whole beast. That is why the part behind the red line is at its most basic still. Until then I was going to stick to a smaller section only though. I know, a slightly excessive way to enforce all that.. I promise it'll be gone on the next update :grin:

On to that dreaded background.. I'm really not happy with some parts, but it just doesn't seem to work out sometimes. Will give it a day and try fix those parts up :grin:

Are there any major areas or pointers you could suggest I fix up first before moving on to the background?
As always, all ya advice is much appreciated

The grass still looks picturesque to me, and it looks like he is missing his back two legs. Other than that, looks great!

Haha, picturesque, 'cause that part 's still a photograph.. I'm still gathering an imageboard for the background, so i haven't taken out that part of the photograph.. which leads to the second point: The two legs are the hardly recognisable dips at the back. Its right hind leg is the one going forward, while the left one continues on closely from its hind edge. Thanks for pointing those out though, cause if they're not that clearly identifyable I need to go at them again ^^ They don't show a lot though cause this is a very hairy cow, so I was trying to convey that its fleece reaches the floor, pretty much covering their legs.. similar to the Musk Ox (http://www.chinese-zodiac.co.uk/Images/musk_ox.png)

I was going to have the animal trudge through thick snow though, the occasionaly yellow grass sprouting out through it.. tundra like? So the lower part, the legs will probably eventually end up covered in snow

Thanks Kalina :hug: I'm really happy you like it so far

Picture looks pretty good so far - the beast as such and the saddle part as well! Hope the legs and the grass stuff are next, then we're getting a major step towards completion already. First serious drawing attempts take its time to find the proper techniques and stuff, but so far you've done really well, Jonael!

Having tried in vain to coax any kind of acceptable images from a copy of Photoshop that I 'aquired', I can have nothing but admiration for those of you who manage to unravel its complexities. Me, I'll stick to my pencils and biro, thank you very much.

I'll leave proper commentage until nearer the end, Jonael. Suffice to say, you're doing a fine job so far! It's just how I would imagine such a mount, and the saddle is tremendous.

*huff puff* .. what a tedious thing backgrounds are! None the less I'm not stepping down just yet.

I just wanted to ask my fellow Artists about the snow:

What technique would you recomend to achieve a snow like in this here image (http://www.santharia.com/pictures/quellion/tandala_highlands.htm)?

So far I've tried laying down the colours in rough <brush> strokes, and then using the <smudge> tool to fade them into eachother... but it still looks too jagged and off. Would you guys know of another method to approach it?

I would do just as you are suggesting.  Try adjusting the smudge rate,  I prefer a low rate to allow for more complete blending.

Wee update on this image. Being up at the castle without internet I've had plenty of time to give this bloody snow another shot. I'm not too satisfied with how it turnd out, but that's why I've once agian turned to my artistic buddies here. Suggestions welcome

:grin: Befitting the mountainous landscape I decided to go for a panoramic shot

While I'm hardly artistic, here's my two sans:

When I make this picture larger, the snow looks fuzzy. It's like you took a picture of the beast and made the background blurred and out-of-focus. In my experience, snow (and especially snow that has been lying around for a few days, getting to the point where it feels more like ice than like snow when touching it) looks really quite sharp.

Conversely, when the picture is in the small thumbnail size, it looks a lot better, with the bits of brown where the snow didn't cling and the bits of blue where there's shadow, so not complaining about the colours at all, just about the sharpness :)

Edit: I looked at it again and your ox looks like it was dumped in the middle of the snow by a giant hand - there's no trail behind him to show that he moved through the snow of his own accord :)

I hope this helps a little bit ^.^

This mostly looks pretty cool, Jonael - I guess there's nothing you can't fix now, and the key elements to complete the picture have progressed already very far! :thumbup:

To the details: The ox itself is very well done, maybe some single hairs here and there at the end and at the front to make it look more natural. The fact that he's in the snow, covering the legs was a pretty cool idea, I'd just suggest to at least make a better hint at the legs, e.g. make part of the center of the body a bit above the snow, so that you have at the impression that he's actually standing. I guess you should also remove some snow behind the animal, otherwise it seems like it's been dropped of a helicopter or something... The transition between animal and snow also has some blurs, this should also be worked on.

The weakest part is still the landscape, which is very blurry at parts, so it should be primary objective to remove some of these problems and make it sharper, maybe even work with some textures of stones and snow you find on the site in that other thread I mentioned (ah, here's the site (http://cgtextures.com/)).

But so far this is really impression, Jonael! We should lock you more often in the castle's dungeons if you prefer the quiet of being in a castle... Aura +1!

P.S. And as I can see Irid has just posted and noticed just the same things... :D

Aha I knew you could do it Jonael.  The beast itself is very well done.  The background is really good too.  Very nice.  You probably made the way-back part out-of-focus on purpose to show it is in the back..of course.  But I agree it needs to be sharper.  I got nailed on that in my first few drawings.  While photgraphs can appear that way, we don't want the paintings to be too much out of focus.

Your doing great, it will be worth the effort when it gets posted. :thumbup:

Bravo!   This is looking quite detailed and professional already - a huge leap from the last version I saw, and obviously a lot of work and care has gone into it.

A couple of suggestions: bright sunlit snowy landscapes reflect a lot of light.  Shadows on the beast could use more contrast - don't be afraid to use your burn and dodge brushes (shadow, darken, whatever they are called) to give some deeper modeling around the eye socket, under the bead bridle, and at the edge of the saddle.   More loose, sharp hairs around the edge of the animal, as Art pointed out, but also some over top of the fur that aren't as blurry (they will resemble guard hairs over the softer pelt beneath, give definition and suggest depth of the fur).  Make sure to 'blur' in the tops of those hairline strokes, though, so that they have an origin and direction.     Horns could have a bit stronger striation, in line with that 'contrast' comment above.

Great design and proportions, love the colour choice....even the pose is so reminiscent of all those old etchings of prize livestock on display, I almost expect to see a plaque or handwritten scribble beneath:  "Norsideye Brawler II, out of Shoulder Brawler and Hoofdancer Matron, 200 hebs.  ColdComfort Steppes Ranch, 1618"...  :)

Fist off, thank you so much to all of ya for the positive and encouraging feedback. Its just the right thing to keep on going when those difficult snags come up. 

@Irird, artistic or not, I always appreciate your oppinion greatly ^^ Indeed the snow's fuzzy and blurred.. I guess I need to try using a more defined brush that fades less along the edges. My initial concern was that the different shades and colours wouldn't bland nicely which is why I went for a high fading brush. As you and Arti suggest though, I'll give a more defined brush a shot tho.

The reason why I didn't put tracks is because of the nature of the animal I was referencing off. The Musk Ox.. these animals usually stand around (albeit in packs) in the snow for long periods of time, so that the snow swamps nicely about them, covering their tracks. Regardless, I must have forgoten about the tracks, but given the weather conditions I've represented in the illustration though, crisp icy snow seems like a better idea though, so that'll be changed too, ta

@Art, Aye, I'll do somethign to give a clearer impression of the legs. It means a lot that you'd find this impressive, ta much. Haha, as for the castle.. I'm working up there 'till end of august, so still plenty of time to enjoy the solitude and peaceful ease.

@Seeker, haha, thanks. Yeah 'once it gets posted'.. There is no entry for it yet though. The idea was really just to see what the art community here thought of the new art skills I'd brushed up. But I guess I could look into making and entry for it too. Or if someone else feels inspired, go for it ^^

@Judy, Thanks Judy, though I can't really say I spent a lot of time on it since the last version (one evening I think it was) I did indeed put a lot of passion and effort into this newest version. I'm absolutely loving this illustrating and art-ing! As for the shadows, I'll get right to them.

Haha, as for the prize livestock pose.. that might have slipped in subconciously. Having royal family history, the castle's seeded with some Impressive paintings of Prize Derby Horses, I've actually spent quite some time looking at and into them by now, so that might have seeped through. I'm really proud and happy it seems as such though. It seems an appropriate pose for this majestic mount :grin:

Jonael, I too am impressed with what you've done here. I'm enjoying seeing the way you are progressing through the stages of developing the pictures as well as reading your discussion of what you are attempting to do with each new version you put up for feedback.

I'm also enjoying reading the feedback others are giving to you with regards to yout efforts ... that is also helping my understanding of the process one goes through with something like this. At the moment, I tend to be more skilled with floor plans and such things than with pictures ... but I suppose everyone has to start somewhere, don't they.

In any case, +1 aura from me, Jonael for your progress and the way you are taking on the suggestions of others.

- Dek

Spot on Deklitch, I find it important to convey the thinking behind some of the things that go on in the ilustration. Sometimes they justify something in the image, but mostly it's just interesting to know about. Things aren't just in there cause they came out that way, but because there was a cart of thought (train would be a little too advanced for Santharia just yet) behind them.. I'm glad you enjoy and apreciate the commentary as much as I do :grin: And your right about progress too, gotta start with something small but that you feel confident with, and then each time maybe try out something new, a daring step into the new and maybe unattempted by you. That's how I got into painting this fella.. and then had to go on to face my fear of backgrounds, haha.

In any case, ta for the +aura, and lets both keep at it striving to improve

I think he's beautiful.  I do have one suggestion, though.  With the trappings, this is obviously a domesticated beast, but there are no signs of civilization of any around him.  He looks like he is alone in the wild. 

I'm not recommending any complicated changes, so don't worry.  I was thinking of possibly something to indicate people being around.  The edge of a stone fence or side of a building in the distance, maybe even just the tracks of a person leading away (like he stopped for a break in his trip)  Or maybe you have something else in mind.

Lovely work, Jonael!

A break, huh?  I guess oxentrekking gets hard on the bladder after a while.....

And here I was trying to be subtle...guess you know me too well, Bard.  :P

Hahaha, thanks Alysse, thanks bard. The thought of a person in there did actually cross my mind at one stage in development of this illustration... I guess I shied away from it though. Since it caught your attention though, I'll give it a shot. I'll brainstorm it a bit and see what I can summon up to give it a more domesticated feel.

Given I actually have internet access today I thought I'd post a version of how things are looking just now. I attempted addressing all the issues a little... not sure whether the touch-ups I have done so far cover them sufficiently tho:

[] The Snow's not got a more solid look to it, and a texture (thanks for the site Arti ^^)
[] I pushed the snow in a little more between the legs, hoping to define them a little more
[] Though not yet fully happy with them, I set in some tread marks which indicate previous movement of the animal.

Once again, thanks all for helping me on the path to completing this illustration, much much appreciated!

I think the snow turned out great - doesn't look too photographed, so the combination with the drawing works quite well. :) The footsteps at the end are still a bit unbelievable, though. If you look at the animal, then it's practically half a ped in the snow (at least it looks that way), so if that's the case the whole area behind the oxen would need to be a track. Or, as I suggested previously, you could move the oxen up a bit, show the its underbelly with some hairs hanging down and draw a bit of the legs, then it fits together much better. The blurry transition between snow and beast BTW still doesn't work for me.

The "domesticated feel" is definitely not easy to achieve, especially as this is your first drawing, so maybe better don't do too dramatic changes, as the beast itself looks good enough to stand on its own.

Eureka!

*Out of the shadows jumps a dark and tired looking Jonael*

I've addressed all of the mentioned issues ina version which I think looks great now.. the only issue is I can't find my bloody usb-stick, so i can't transfer the image onto the castle's computer! *Blows a Raspberry*

I'll update this post as soon as I get it here though. Basically I fixed the track behind the mount to one which is more appropriate for its heavy and low build. You'll see it looks more like the animal's fleece swept the snow behind it. Similarly I've addressed the issue of snow-to-creature transfer by carving out some snow from underneath the ox. With a bit more shadow and flattened snow the ox doesn't loose it's heavy and stable stance but also doesn't seem to 'fade' into the snow as Artimidor disliked.

Anyhow, I'll stop the rambling without an actual image for now ^^

Well in the meantime perhaps you or someone (not me) can write an entry for this magnifenct beast.  I would love to see it get posted. :clap2:

Considering the many loose ends I'm still involved in I would ask someone else to establish an entry around this creature.. I'm on a mission to tie knots in all my loose bits of string before I start on anything else.

On another note, finally managed to upload the image :grin: Hope it's liked

Yep, I guess the picture turned out very cool now! :clap: I guess all the mentioned points have been addressed now in this version - the snow track, the transition between snow and beast etc. It looks not so dug into the snow, the snow is fine all around, and beast and saddle have been well done so far anyway. It's pretty much perfect, and especially for a first attempt of trying to do a serious digital painting this is top notch!  :thumbup:

Aura +1 for you, Jonael, even tough you got a bunch already on the way - but this has been a longer project, and you tried your best to improve the picture whereever you could, and now you've reached your goal, so you can really be proud of that!  :grin:

Pity is only that you drew a picture to an entry that doesn't even exist yet... So we'd need someone to get this finally on site!

Art may I suggest we could list the Oxen Pack Mount in the cattle overview (with the little circle pic) at least until someone provides a full blown entry?  Just a suggestion.

Yeah, we can do that, though we'd need a few sentences there as well, which usually is taken from the Overview part. Do we have at least a few details on the ox, or is someone out there who can provide hints and clues what to put there (now I'm sounding like the guy who's searching for criminals in a TV programme :lol:)?

That was what Jonael had in his initial post in this thread. Are we able to somehow adapt that for the cattle overview page? We'd have to decide which of the Icetribes (I'm guessing it'll be them) would be most likely to use such beasts.

Edit: Actually ... I'm going to try my hand at writing an entry that does this picture justice, assuming no one has any objections to me doing that.

Cheers Deklitch :grin:

Of course I have no objections at all, and the gesture's much appreciated. If you need any oppinions or have questions dun hesitate to just send me a carrier pidgeon ^^

Thanks again to everyone for your outstanding and persistant support on this illustration. I can't describe how happy this has made me. I set out at the very beginning treading into unknown territory and strange lands, but with your support I managed to learn a lot about this digital painting and how to perfect it. I can't promise it, but I will definitly give more illustrations a shot.. after all practice makes perfect.

*After having placed the last paint stroke on his illustration of the Ox, Jonael swivels on his rotating stool (a concept based on brownie beads :shocked:) and focuses his attention on the contents of his second work desk. On it are an assortment of fresh baked cookies and little pieces of parchment onto which he addresses each of his fellow Compendium friends who have helped him throught the labour on this painting. Attaching the still oven-fresh cookies to the notes he then sends them off to each of the individual's chambers*

.. which leads me to ask: What system of communication do we have in place to communicate between everyone's individual studios in the Compendium? I was about to write owls, but then that might not be it at all..

Owls? Well, I guess we have carrier pigeons - that should do the job :)

I'm not having pigeons swooping through my nice clean halls!   

That's what the pages are for - they sit on little stools in the workroom just off the kitchens when they are not otherwise running around doing errands and carrying messages, in their clean (at least at the start of the day) green Compendium tunics... and there are bells and speaking tubes for the more senior studies so that they can summon a messenger page directly.  The boys get their food and bed in a common dormitory, pick up manners and information on the run, have a small stipend stored away for them when they leave, and it keeps them off the streets, so many a poor family is quite happy to send their youngest in to serve for a few years.

Of course, pigeons are very helpful outside the main building - except we've given up sending them to the greenhouses, as so few ever seem to make it back......

What, those were carrying messages?

I thought they were the plant food i ordered....

A nice picture! :)

I wonder, how many hours you put in it?

I like especially the saddle/blanket thing.

And how did you do this snow?

Cheers Talia, glad ya like it :grin:

I'm not sure on the exact number of hours I put into this, but as a rough estimate it should be ~10 hours, spread thin across multiple weeks, haha. I usually sit down and manage to work two and a half hours on end in an evening. Then I have to go do something else...

Pages.. fair enough, I shall use them hence forth