Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => History of Caelereth => Topic started by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 July 2009, 03:18:06



Title: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 July 2009, 03:18:06
Further Links:
- The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread) (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,13720)
- The War of the Chosen (entry) (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,13730)
- Timeline of the Early Myths (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,13729)



THE WAR OF THE CHOSEN

Dark Side

ALTETH

Avatar of: Etherus

Territory: Probably Northeast Sarvonia

Demise: His dark tormented soul is said to have been captured in the Forsaken Blade, which he himelf has supposedly forged.

Details: The Forsaken Blade, a black enchanted sword, is said to once have been made by the Dark Chosen Alteth, whose tormented soul is now captured in it. True or not, the blade  has been an heirloom to all the lords of Remusiat after the Battle of Wind and has become the Remusian tribe's symbol of power. The sword was probably made to assist Alteth during the Battle of Winds. After the Battle of Wind the sword fell to Lord Surod of Remusiat. Since then it has been an heirloom to all the lords of Remusiat and has become the Remusian tribe's symbol of power.

Succeeding Avatar: Unknown

ECKRA THE CRUEL

Avatar of: Queprur.

Territory: He ruled a vast area in Northern Sarvonia, ranging from the peninsula Dinal (now known as the Forbidden Zone), to what is now the Eight Winds Bay.

Demise: Died in the Battle of Winds.

Details: His stronghold was an immense keep, which became known as Tak'Dinal (Fear of Dinal). It was made almost entirely from cairns of black stone and was perched on the shores of Ebony Lake, its toxicness fouling the crystal waters into a dark murk. His army was referred to as the "Dinali".

The whole area was cloaked in an impenetrable gloom, giving it a sense of dark dread. In the East of his domain were the Mountains of Despair. The mountains were of obsidian and volcanic rock, they were riddled with mines. Massive forges lay all about exterior of the mines, smelting the iron found. It is whispered that the iron Eckra’s smithies forged was a crimson black, made with spells from acolytes and the mixing of dried blood. The only other sign of civilization in his bleak land was a port that was filled with large slave ships. This town was given exclusively over to his orcish warriors. It's filth and squalor was mentioned by the very few that survived seeing the sight.

The archmage earned his name from those that heard about him and feared his cruelty. Eckra sent slave ships coursing the sea between the peninsula and the Celeste Mountains. The sorrow of the races and the pain of families forever torn apart later caused this sea to be re-named The Sea Of Tears. Human and elf alike were captured and made to work, mining materials for his orcish armies and arcane practices in the aptly named Mountains of Despair. Wargs were made to be mounts for orcish calvary and also used throughout the Plains of Rilla to hunt and kill any intruders. It is rumored that the archmage also summoned netherbeasts and other foul creatures to do his bidding as well.

Eckra's frequent battles with nearby archmages made his borders barren and the soil drenched with blood. Whole towns and armies were wiped out within a day's time as his army and magic contested for the rights of dominion over the land. Many a battle was fought against several other archmages. Eckra's demise, along with three other powerful archmages is thought to have occurred during the great Battle of Winds.

See Battle of Winds.

Tak'Dinal. Tak'Dinal, that ancient stronghold of horror, though in ruins, still exists today. There was a brief moment when some life was brought back into Eckra's old domain. Elves and pendrowe from the Shaded Forest migrated to the Folkmore Trees and tried to revive the decimated forest, others feared for them and warned of possible danger. The warning was proven true in time, as they were either killed or driven out of the lands in 1649 b.S., during The Year of Darkness, or as it is called in Northern Sarvonia, the Burning Night. The land now is said to be cursed, and few will enter, for fear of what might survive from Eckra's days, and what those who tried to follow his footsteps might have awakened. Many a hero and scholar who have tried to venture in this forsaken land have never been heard from again. The few that have returned seem to be changed beyond recognition, and carry a stamp of terrible pain and dark intent. Even though Eckra's death happened centuries ago, his name is still used to frighten children or mentioned in ribald stories around campfires, when a persons tongue is plied by drink.

The ruins sit near the shores of the Ebony Lake, at the foothills of the Mountains of Despair. The lands around Tak'dinal are known as the Forbidden Zone, for long ago it is said that Eckra cast a spell which forbade any vegetation to grow or any animal to inhabit the area. These areas are all located upon the peninsula of Kr'uul. It is further seperated from the rest of  Northern Sarvonia due to the mighty river known as the Waters of Divison.

Many Kuglimz, some Meladrhim, even a few Kurakim have ventured down into the depths of Tak'dinal. It is surmised that they have met their end either by magical traps, fearsome creatures, or at the hands of orcs or dinali rumoured to survive in the lower regions. Some fear that those souls that would be heroes are instead transformed much as Aváth'caó and join the darkness of the deeps waiting for another as powerful as Gouran to come lead them.

The united armies of Northern Sarvonia spent years cleaning up after his dark magics, which included leveling Tak'Dinal. It once again came into prominence as the source that twisted Aváth'caó into Gouran.

Tome of Time. According to the legend, the Edict of the Ageless was wrought within the fortress of Tak’dinal, a cousin to the infamous Midnight Blade, by Eckra the Cruel himself. Preceding his demise in the catastrophic Battle of the Winds, it is said that Eckra poured his extensive knowledge into the manuscript to ensure the continuation of his practices. However, the wise archmagus, realizing that his enemies were numerous, transcribed his teachings into a nearly undecipherable language and imbued the book with some of his power, enabling it to protect itself. Before gathering his orcish hordes and marching from the peninsula, the Chosen is believed to have locked his precious tome within a stone sage to ensure its safety. There, nestled within the crumbling walls of the fortress, the artifact is rumoured to have rested until its discovery in 1527.

It is now supposedly in the possession of the elusive magical order known as the Children of the Mind. The mystical tome was stolen from Ximaxian magi by the renegade wizard Raeis Boldsnout, who also founded the order.

Or'injèrá Sword. The Or'injèrá Teaching Sword (Styrásh lit. "light guide") was rumoured but never confirmed that it was used by the commander of the armies in the Battle of the Winds of Eckra the Cruel. This blade was created with the purpose of teaching its user on the subject of swordplay. Among humans, it is known as "the Tutor". The blade defies all sorts of magic. The sword's location cannot be detected with magic, and despite the most powerful wizard's attempt, it's history cannot be learned by magical means. Dygan Heartswind. Dygan carried the blade until his disappearence. The blade has not been seen since.

Succeeding Avatar. Aváth'caó (1900 b.S.-1779 b.S., "Beautiful Child") was the most promising Injerín elf of her generation. In an effort to heal the blighted lands around Tak'dinal she traveled into the depths of its ruins. When she was seen again she had become transformed into Gouran ("Devourer") and would become the bane of the North, causing a Year of Darkness, pain, and sorrow. As her incarnation as Gouran, Aváth'caó was known from 1650 till 1648 b.S., which in the elven recordings is not accounted to her regular life-time.

Died in an ill-fated battle at the Mithril Bridge. No more than one in ten men survived that battle, and in the last moments of it, Quál’valannía was forced to kill his own daughter. Upon Gouran’s death the year of darkness lifted to a bloody dawn.

Succeeding Avatar II. Raeis Boldsnout, who stole the Tome of Time he was meant to research in 1527 a.S.

MA'ASHEROM THE RED

Avatar of: Foiros

Territory: Tandala Highlands

Demise: Died in a revolution against him started by his numerous subjects, being the last surviving Chosen.

Details: Ma'asherom is said to have been one of the last remaining magicians surviving the War of the Chosen. He used to keep orcish slaves which the humans distracted them from their own misery. Was located at the Colthoi temple in the former metropolis of El'Darthar, at the location of today's Dragon's Maw at the center of the Tandala Highlands.

- Ma'asherom's sorceress Cyrella is killed in the attack of Eu'reoll
Ma'asherom was convinced that to gain control of Eu'reoll is to have total and complete dominion over the world. In his all-consuming arrogance and believing that the elven race, known for their peaceful nature, would submit voluntarily to his will, he sent ten of his most trusted followers under the command of the sorceress Cyrella to wrest possession of Eu'reoll.

After killing a stag, Cyrella was transformed into a tree by the High Avá'ránn: Cyrella opened her mouth to speak and shrieked instead. She howled as her skin hardened and turned brown and rough to the touch. She screamed as her hands were pulled up above her head and the fingers stretched and lengthened like long stiff ropes. She sobbed as her legs merged together and her toes sank beneath the soil to take root. Helpless, she begged the Elf-Queen for deliverance and none was given.

When the men returned to the archmage with their news, Ma'asherom rewarded their failure with a long, prolonged and painful death.

Succeeding Avatar. Unknown.

MENEMRONN THE PURPLE

Avatar of: Unknown

Territory: Ended up in Nybelmar.

Demise: 8956 b.S. in the "Year of Dawn". Killed by the elven princess Imsádi with a last curse on his lips, he disappeared in a thick dark mist and his body was never to be found. Everyone that stood near enough died soon after and Imsádi was no exception. The elves named this sickness the "Black Breath of Menemronn".

The supposed death of Menemronn is also a bit foggy in the version of the Kayr elves as they were never sure if his disappearance meant also his death - therefore their later suspicion that a new Shadow is rising in Ehebion: the very spark that started the centuries long war between the first Korweyn Empire and the Ehebion Kingdom.

For Murmillions, Menemronn was not at all the "evil" wizard bent on destroying the world, instead they see him as a civilizing hero. His goal was to bring "enlightenment" to a barbaric land, to show the "true path" to the lost peoples of Nybelmar. They also see Menemronn's defeat in a different way: he was not actually killed, but it was his decision and accomplishment to leave this world for a better one. As a last act, with a last hope to bring redemption for the souls of the sinners, he accomplished a ritual of transcendence, being the first one to lead the way on the "true path" - the forefather. Woven in foolish beliefs, as Murmillions claim, the elves were never able to understand Menemronn's message, and influenced by elves the Korweynite "barbarians" plunged even deeper into a sinful existence. If it wasn't for Kyras, they say, maybe Menemronn's message would have died with his disappearance.

Details: This wizard came to Nybelmar and set out for a campaign meant to bring the continent at his feet. There, at the edge of the newly formed ocean, he erected, by means of magic, a vast mountain range called "the fortress of Eferán’ypheró", "The Burning Mountains", in Eastern Nybelmar.

Using his great powers, he subdued all the tribes living around his new home. He formed a formidable army and he began to burn and chop down the Emerald Woods, the home of his strongest opponents, the elves. The war that started, had slowly spread over all the Nybelmarian lands and all the free races suffered greatly. Those who didn't want to join Menemronn's dreadful legions were meant to be purged from the face of the earth. But when seemingly all hope was lost, a new ray of light shone for the battered tribes, as a great alliance appeared to rise just from the ashes of this continent. The Taeánrhim (the elves of the Emerald Woods) formed the Great Alliance on the Sohoi Mountains with the three great human tribe leaders: Korweyn (later to be known as "the Great"), Enfastalos (later to be known as "the Quick") and Kyras (later to be known as "the Dark").

All the versions of this story agree that it was the human Korweyn the one who had slain Menemronn's champion, causing havoc among the dark ones. The war moved then further to the east and after months and months of endless battles the Alliance's army were at the gates of Eferán’ypheró. Again, the humans were the first who stormed the fortress, where, it is said, Menemronn himself awaited them. Both Korweyn and Enfastalos died by Menemronn's very hands and many human soldiers perished with them. Kyras and his men though, managed to retreat from the scene of battle. It was only when the elven princess Imsádi charged frenetically followed by an elven battle group that the fate of this battle favoured the Alliance.

Following the chaos, Menemronn tried to flee but Imsádi's arrow, it is said, found a gap in the Darklord's obsidian armor, where Enfastalos' bows had opened the ways. Then towering over the falling wizard, her silver sword struck a mighty blow, deep into the the gap created by Korweyn's blast. Also it is said, that just before the sunrise, with a last curse on his lips, this Chosen of Nybelmar fell within a thick dark mist and his body was never to be found. Everyone that stood near enough died soon after and Imsádi was no exception. The elves named this sickness the "Black Breath of Menemronn". Imsádi was hulled into white clothes and laid on a bed of satin and silk, but under the influence of this sickness her skin had been turned grey and dry, and even the dwarves mourned the evanescence of her beauty...

Kyras and his men wanted to stay and form a new wondrous Kingdom on such a place of power, but Nandros (Korweyn's brother) wanted to follow the advice of the elves. Finally they all decided to leave, but before crossing the Jerrah, Kyras turned his men back into the hills before the Burning Mountains (Eferán’ypheró). There, with his men, and with the remnants of Menemronn's armies (humans, but also some twisted elven clans) they forged a new nation: Murmillions.

The Kayr elves claim that Menemronn was actually the Chosen of Coór. In later times (long after the Year of Darkness) the Arkhaeon Guild went even further, claiming that, as a Chosen of Coór, not only that Menemronn didn't die, but that his "spirit" lives in each and every enlightened one (the Guild Leaders, obviously).

After the war, the highest peak of Menemronn's magical mountains crumbled into the sea with a furious eruption, its place being taken by what we call now the "Bay of Desolation" (the most treacherous waters on the eastern coast). His fortresses were also slowly swallowed by the mountains but, nevertheless, a lot of knowledge, buildings and artifacts survived and they would of course become material for many legends in the minds of the people involved in these events. Such is the case with Menemronn's enchanted obsidian armour. It is believed that the one that wears it gains great powers over nature and is also bound to master the lands though no matter the cost.

But perhaps the most interesting of all is the legend about the Throne of Menemronn. The Kayr elves tell that the throne on which Menemronn sat was filled with magical energies radiating from eight stones that were built in it. They claim that these stones were crafted by Menemronn himself to help him achieve the complete domination of all the peoples of Nybelmar. Supposedly there were four stones concentrating the power of the elements and another four acting as their counterpart. They named the stones Avásh'catár (standing for Wind), Efér'catár (standing for Fire), Már'catár (standing for Water), Mód'catár (standing for Earth), and as well Ancían'catár (standing for Silence), Móh'catár (standing for Darkness), Cár'tuulén'catár (standing for Ice) and Hal'catár (standing for Stone). Still, the exact purpose for which he crafted them is only a matter of speculation, what is sure though is that their mere presence has the power to influence the mind of the bearer. After the war, the elves claimed the "Lightstones" to help them heal the lands and warned the humans not to touch the remaining "Darkstones". But these were later claimed by Kyras and spreaded among the new clans of Ehebion (the so called "Lords of the Sickle"). Eventually they were lost so that only the Kayr elves and the Korweynite humans still believe in their existence.

Succeeding Avatar: Unknown

SARIA STARLIGHT

Avatar of: Queprur

Territory: Unknown.

Demise: Unknown.

Details: 9372 - Invasion of the Temple of Weaving: Saria Starlight, Chosen of Queprur, invades the Temple of Weaving. The Old Weavers are turned into slaves and used as weapons in the War of the Chosen. Many Old Weavers die simply because Saria has a particular rivalry with another Chosen who takes to attacking the Temple.

In those first years the Weavers kept their secret well, and none knew that they even existed. Alas, the secret was finally broken by a man named Saria Starlight, who had aspirations to use his power to dominate all those weaker than himself. Without warning he occupied the Temple of Weaving, which he took as his own, and made all those within slaves. Saria declared war on his first foe, a man who is forgotten by now. One thing is known, however, that he was a very powerful mage, as powerful possibily as Saria, the traitor. He came to the Temple under cover of night and with his magic he slew many a Weaver of Saria's followers and innocent slaves. Finally he as well as Starlight were defeated by the formerly enslaved Weavers

Succeeding Avatar. Unknown

YAIROK (most likely Dark, not confirmed)

Avatar of: Unknown

Territory: "Archmage of the North".

Demise: Died mostly likely in the Battle of Winds.

Details: Attacked Eckra the Cruel's army in the Battle of Winds after Eckra's inital attack on the joint armies of Coulande and Dra'va'ensle. Eckra's forces were caught completely unaware by the sudden attack. More details at the Battle of Winds.

Succeeding Avatar. Unknown



White Side

COULANDE

Avatar of: Unknown

Territory: South.

Demise: Most likely in the Battle of Winds.

Details: The armies of Coulande (White) in the south and Dra'va'ensle (White), the half-elven, in the west met in the plains beneath the Shadow Lands and combined their forces as they heard rumour of Eckra the Cruel amassing forces. They formed an army called "Sýs'cortná'avá" (two becoming one). More details at the Battle of Winds.

Succeeding Avatar. Unknown.

DRA'VA'ENSLE (Half-Elf, Injerín)

Avatar of: Unknown

Territory: West.

Demise: Most likely in the Battle of Winds.

Details: The armies of Coulande (White) in the south and Dra'va'ensle (White), the half-elven, in the west met in the plains beneath the Shadow Lands and combined their forces as they heard rumour of Eckra the Cruel amassing forces. They formed an army called "Sýs'cortná'avá" (two becoming one). More details at the Battle of Winds.

Succeeding Avatar. Unknown.

MIRHAN THE JUST

Avatar of: Unknown

Territory: Northern Sarvonia, Kanapan Lands.

Demise: Unknown

Details: The Chosen of the East proclaims himself in the Kanapan lands and great wonders are done for the Kanapan people. It is thought that this is the time of the "Old Gods" that they talk about.

Has put an enchantment on the Forsaken Blade made by Alteth before he battled Alteth, but, magic that powerful could only be temporary. It faded after the conflict.

Succeeding Avatar. Unknown.



Grey Side (Neutral)

THALAMBATH

Avatar of: Unknown

Territory: Unknown

Demise: It is at the sight of his last hope gone that Thalambath lost the last piece of sanity and ordered his seven followers to leave him once and for all. When they returned the ruins had made place for a gigantic castle, a black rock standing at the mountainside (today part of the City of Thalambath). Thalambath in person had disappeared but it is believed that he lives on within the walls of the fortress, the last remnants of his lifeforce living on in a large green diamond, the Heart of Thalambath, hidden deep within the dungeons of the fortress. But no one has ever found it, yet. Rumours have spread of undead and other arcane servants still lingering in the darkness, defending the dwindling consciousness of their master.

Since Thalambath’s founding, however, more stories and myths have arisen beyond the initial founding. The Seven themselves are also mired in mystery, and many believe that they still exist, kept alive through powerful sorcery. Their powers are supposedly far beyond the capabilities of modern mages, instead maintaining arcane secrets from the age of the Chosen. The Seven are rumoured to be able to shape-shift, changing into other people or even alien animals and monsters, infiltrating and manipulating other societies for their own benefit, and being the true masterminds behind Strata’s original trade empire.

Demise: The Tale of the Keep's Heart is an ancient legend dating back to the time when the Tharian King Santhros the Wise united the southern Sarvonian Kingdoms. When he arrived in Thalambath, at the largest city in southern Sarvonia, it is told that the Stratanians demanded from him to prove that he was worthy - and so he enter the dungeons below the castle of Thalambath, once home of a notorious wizard... Santhros entered the castle and eventually gripped the stone with both hands. He lifted it with ease from the tomb. But he had only taken the stone and a deep dark voice, serene and terrifying at the same time, echoed through the room, making the ground shake beneath his feet, and small pieces of stone fell from the ceiling as shivers ran down his spine. The green light darkened. Only the eyes of the statue lit up for a moment as the voice shook the foundation of the keep. "Peace at last."

So the legend was fulfilled, the stone taken by the true unificator, and Thalambath subdued to the might of Santhros. The legendary stone was never seen afterwards and some harsh voices even claim that the legend around it was purely invented in order to build a myth around Santhros' person.

Succeeding Avatar: Santhros.



General Notes:

- Three Chosen died in the Battle of Winds, among them: Eckra the Cruel.
Others? Could be Yairok (Dark), Coulande (White), Dra'va'ensle (White).

The Midnight Blade

This blade is thousands of years old and was originally wielded by the legendary Bone Queen (Queen of Wind), the ruler of the shadow elves, then later dubbed the "Midnight Blade" and used by one of the Chosen. The Midnight Blade corrupts the powers of the one who wields it so as to create greater, if more demonic, effects. Specifically the blade warps the powers of wind magic to bring chaos and torment onto the world, and slowly maddens any mortal foolish enough to attempt to use it.

The Battle of Winds

The armies of Coulande (White) in the south and Dra'va'ensle (White), the half-elven, in the west met in the plains beneath the Shadow Lands and combined their forces as they heard rumour of Eckra the Cruel amassing forces. They formed an army called "Sýs'cortná'avá" (two becoming one). In the first battle Eckra dealt heavy losses to the White army. Finally night enclosed the exhausted armies, and they gradually broke away from the conflict. After a time the men were all back in their own camps, and kept watch on each other with a tense peace, enforced by the exertions of the day and the ensuing darkness.

That same night the archmage of the north, Yairok, and his troops moved close enough to survery the situation under the cover of night. The flaring of the campfires outnumbered the stars themselves. Yairok knew he had to take advantage of his surprise, as this was the best chance to defeat his opponents. His troops rushed towards the nearest encampment and engaged the sleeping army.  Eckra's forces were caught completely unaware by the sudden attack. Many of his troops were slaughtered before they could even raise a weapon

Just as Eckra’s troops were being driven back, the Sýs'cortná'avá attacked Yairok’s men from the rear. Even with their fatigue, the men of the white army were able to hue down those that stood before them. Eckra brought in a new weapons: Netherbeasts, summoned from the depths of the Netherworlds were given free reign over the field of battle.

Everything imagined and much that cannot be were thrown at each other, until the very earth was ripped asunder beneath their feet. The raging sea poured in and engulfed the wizards, and what was left of the tattered armies. This in pouring of water created what is known as Eight Winds Bay, all that remains, of that plain of blood and death, are but three islands. All of which are fertile, some say due to the thousand who poured their life into that soil. Till this very day, an electrical charge can be felt in the area, causing one's hairs to stand on end. In fact there is an enormous whirlpool in the middle of the bay. Some say the whirlpool was caused by the affects of the powers that were released during the battle. But, still others scoff at this notion and mark it down as simply a natural occurrence.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 July 2009, 03:30:23
I start a thread here as already mentioned somewhere, which will deal with the War of the Chosen. The current entry is sketchy, maybe even contradictory and there are lots of assumptions here and there, the Gods seem to manage all its beginning as if it were the most natural thing in the world, Capher even based a whole book he started on things that are just taken for granted etc. It is unclear where which Chosen was located, on which side they fopught, what he/she did and why and what power a Chosen had and what each one's supposed demise was, and so on.

This all needs to be brought together in a form that is somewhat cohesive. Elements that are there should be incorporated ideally, but on the other hand the mythological ambivalence of certain stories need to be kept in the open. So there's a lot of piecing together to be made here, and some things just need be made more concrete to make sense in a larger context and allow further development/mythology in that context.

So I've started this thread with an empty post at the beginning as of yet, where eventually the revised entry will end up. Until then I will do some researches and try to collect information/ideas and post them here in the course of time. Don't know how long it will take to get as far as I need in order to be able to do the rewrite, but this has been on my mind for a longer time already (with further things in hindsight), so it's about time that it finally gets at least started. So this is the initial post for that.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 21 July 2009, 03:59:53
:thumbup:

Could you put here some links as well, where you find that parts which are here and there? Not all might be found with the search function.

With the great changes in the South during this time, I might need one Chosen, eventually two,, before the time when Thalambath came down.

Have fun!  :)


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 21 July 2009, 04:10:30
Anything I can do, let me know.  I'm interested in this, as the whole Ice Tribe views on magic were formed during these years, as well as the Forsaken Blade, by the black chosen Alteth.  So, I'd like to understand a bit more on this time.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 21 July 2009, 05:05:18
Dont forget Menemronn the Purple!


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 July 2009, 05:06:02
Information moved to the top.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 July 2009, 05:10:37
Don't worry, Deci, I'll put that one in as well :) Still a lot to do. I've collected at least some basic information on some so far and put it in the previous thread. So if there's something (or a lot) missing - this will follow. This post just serves to get a general overview - if you want to know where to find which information, just ask.

P.S. If you look closer you'll also already see a glimpse of the larger cosmological concept behind all this shining through which I'm trying to persue a bit.  :cool:


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 21 July 2009, 05:38:12
Is there a fixed number of Chosen and I just didn't find it?

Could you be a bit more concrete what this 'cosmological concept' concerns? Please!


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 July 2009, 14:36:33
So far it's basically in the line "Succeeding Avatar: Santhros." More details to come, this is just a rough collection of stuff right now that's already on site.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 22 July 2009, 03:42:30
What does avatar mean exactly?


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 July 2009, 04:19:18
Ok, some details on the avatar concept I have in mind...

First of all: This is inspired by a TV series I watched recently, "Carnivàle" (details here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319969/)), which is a pretty cool idea the way it was done there: American Dustbowl, 1930s, travelling carnival, apocalyptic fight between "awakening" avatars in the "last age of magic". I think these ideas fit even better in an explicit fantasy setting as we have it, yet we'd do it not in that typical black/white religious scheme. The mystery TV series was not appreciated enough by the the studio HBO who cancelled the show after only two seasons when it was at its ultimate peak. It is slow and needs its time to deliver answers, which eventually broke its neck I guess, because most people nowadays prefer not to think when watching TV. Anyway, it's highly recommended from my point of view, and it even has Michael J. Anderson, the Twin Peaks' dwarf, in a starring role. What is also great about the show is that the creator has published pretty much the whole important background story on the internet after the show was cancelled, which gives you a much better understanding of what's going on and what has been intended all along.

Anyway, on that avataric concept and how it can work in Santharia: The thing with the War of the Chosen is that this is a war of guys that are extremely powerful, and why so - because they actually represent the Gods duking their battles out. The current concept already pretty much makes it clear that the Chosen are dedicated to certain Gods, have some of their abilities, so far just called "magical powers". The abilities most likely vary. With other words: While the Gods retreated with the War of the Chosen from Caelereth, they left half-Gods there to fight a battle between White and Black, Dream and Reality, Good and Evil if you so want, etc. In between we have a Grey side as well, a neutral one.

Chosens thus are pretty much "avatars", supreme beings that cannot be compared with normal mortals, incarnations of godly powers. If you think about it, it doesn't make that much sense that Chosen just get killed and that the godly power just disappears from the face of the disc. Yet, the War of the Chosen ended as far as we know, but this doesn't mean that the Chosen disappeared, it means that their powers could be neutralized, contained, so that the Chosen couldn't do any harm. So maybe the War of the Chosen ended, but the godly powers aren't gone. They could be still lingering somewhere, hoping to break out again, cause who could ever actually destroy a God?

If we look at what we have on some Chosen, we know e.g. that one (Alteth) was "captured" in his sword, so he's still around somewhere, somehow. Then we know that there were weird occurrences in Tak'Dinal, Eckra's ancient keep, which transformed a beautiful elf into the deadly Devourer as if Eckra himself had risen from his wet tomb in the Battle of Winds. And finally we know that Thalambath seemed to try to get rid of his powers by turning into a fortress, where Santhros eventually managed to retrieve the heart (of Thalambath), and supposedly the godly power that lay therein. To name just a few examples as things I've gathered yet on all this.

This all suggests to me that the godly powers still are present in Caelereth and that they still might try to work in the background (in artifacts or perhaps even in people). It might not have been just a simple legend that Santhros took Thalambath's heart to prove his courage - he might have been a player in the cosmological battle - gratia Dei if you so want: Thalambath, the neutral one, could have waited for the King that stands for Unity for thousands of years. Wars might have been fought due to the Chosen, long after their supposed demise - and they might be again.

Note that the avatar concept as such doesn't mean that Santhros or anyone else actually knows what's going on. The godly powers might be lingering and need to be rediscovered. Avatars might however know of their importance through dreams, visions of the future etc. And basically it would all remain a myth nevertheless, yet could be utlized for a, say, fantasy novel in a fantasy universe. At any rate that myth would need to be outlined in elven writings for example, so that it is clear how avataric powers can be transferred, what an avatar can do, that only avatars can kill avatars, that sort of thing. To make it all work it would be important to keep things vague and mythical, background stuff, as we don't want supermen fighting each other.

The basic idea is that the godly power still resides on Caelereth and that it has ways to alter history, that fate and free will are tied together in the historical progression. So all in all everything that happens might happen for a reason, as cosmological principles are actually still at work.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 22 July 2009, 04:29:12
Could I elect an avatar for Menemronn....or three, even....The Pyrunai Brothers?


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 22 July 2009, 04:41:11
Ohhhhh... what a perfect way to introduce my Delthenoyre Witches!!  I like very much.   :D  I shall be watching this with great interest.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 July 2009, 05:41:08
Hey yes, Alt, I had the same thought!

Great concept, Artimidor!

But which gods oppose which? I laid down some relations in Shendar myths. The need to be altered slightly to adjust them to my new ideas, but would they fit your ideas as well?

Origin of the Raház-Dáth (http://www.santharia.com/library/the_shendar_book_of_myths/texts/of_the_origin_of_the_rahaz_dath.htm)


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 July 2009, 23:32:29
Will this be based on that story in the "War of the Chosen" entry? Which god is evil and which on the good side?

The gods are mostly not described as being such childish beings as to want to destroy Ava's children because one goddess gets not the lover she wants. Even Queerer I never imagined as so childish and without dignity to have such a wish.

Could it not be a fight Coir against the 12 gods ? He as Ava's dark image wold be strong enough  to fight twelve of her creations easily.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 July 2009, 05:28:49
Fighting about a lover? I don't recall the War of the Chosen being meant to represent anything like that. Coór against the rest in my opinion is also too simple. Things need to more complex and it was basically all about free will as far as I recall. Well, lots of work to do to make that all clear.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 23 July 2009, 05:58:40
War of the Chosen (http://www.santharia.com/history/war_of_the_chosen.htm)

Quote
Queprur's Revenge. It was during this time that the goddess Queprur fell in love with the God of War, Armeros, but He rejected Her for the Jeyriall, with whom he had already produced the Titans in the Beginning of the creation of the world. This rejection caused even more fighting amongst the Gods with some siding with Queprur and others with Jeyriall. With nothing like a woman scorned Queprur turned her anger to the Children of Avá.

"Free will" sounds good, but the problem, complex or not,  remains, which gods have 'evil avatars' and why have exactly they the evil avatars?

Could you please set a link to that part where all is about 'free will'?


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 July 2009, 06:04:21
Like here in the entry:

Quote
It was at this time that the Gods began to notice an important difference between themselves and the Children. The Children were given the freedom of choice to choose their destiny, and they were not.

It's all pretty sketchy once Capher took over to get his own story realized, so it all needs to be straightened out and brought into proper context.

And why should only the evil guys have avatars? There will of course be good avatars as well. And neutral ones. At least that's the idea. If they are directly associated with specific Gods needs to be thought through, this doesn't need to be a given. Too many questions right now, lots of information needs to be collected first.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 23 July 2009, 06:49:07
Just a ponder/thought I had about this ...

In the Arvins (http://www.santharia.com/religions/arvins.htm) entry, it says the following ...

Quote
Arvins is one of the three Gods dedicated to the Element of Earth. In fact, Arvins stands between the other two Gods of Earth as a sort of mediator between the powers of creation, represented by Urtengor the Forgelord, and the necessity of the transitory, executed by the Goddess of the Scythe

I'm wondering whether this in some way can be used in deciding what gods are 'good', 'evil' and 'neutral' in this sense and whether it can be expanded on with regards to the war of the chosen.

- Dek


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 23 July 2009, 07:28:56
@Art:

I didn't say, that only the evil guys will have avatars, but , as I see all of the 12 gods more on the good side, who of those gods will have evil avatars. You could say, Queprur as goddess of Death is evil, or Etherus, but I didn't see them like this. Or is the god of war, Armeros 'evil' . I think not. So - who will have the evil avatars, be related to the evil Chosens??

Capher would have a solution, see his story, who sided with whom, but I never could follow these thoughts.

If they are not associated with a certain god, then it would be easier, but so far I understood you in this way, that ..

Quote
The thing with the War of the Chosen is that this is a war of guys that are extremely powerful, and why so - because they actually represent the Gods duking their battles out. The current concept already pretty much makes it clear that the Chosen are dedicated to certain Gods, have some of their abilities, so far just called "magical powers".


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Bard Judith on 23 July 2009, 09:10:49
An observation, if I may...

Perhaps - like personality traits - the gods themselves are powerful but neutral representations of natural forces (love, fertility, conquest, etc.)   Those forces can be interpreted as 'good' or 'bad' depending upon how they affect humanity.  ("I need rain for my crops, o Grothar, I beg of thee!" vs "Great Grothar, I pray that the weather may continue mild and dry for the great wedding of my princess-daughter this coming week!"  Whatever happens, someone's not gonna be happy...)  Also, avatars of the gods could, through their own free will, choose to represent the beneficial/benign side of a force, or the destructive/chaotic side of a force.

For example:

An avatar of Armeros is a noble, honourable warrior who uses his gods-given strength and skill to protect the weak and right wrongs - a paladin, if you will.
Another Armeron avatar is a cruel, manipulative fighter whose warcraft and strategic ability lets him overrun village after village, plundering and destroying...

A follower of Etherus could be a generous, loving woman, sharing the gifts of her body to relax tension and create self-confidence in others - or that same woman could be perceived as a lusty hussy who flits from man to man draining them of their vital essences....

In the case of the War of the Chosen, the gods allow their followers / avatars free will to represent them (the gods) as they (the avatars) will - within the full spectrum of their abilities, personal desires, and ends gained - which allows for both 'evil' and 'good' actions.  And let's not forget that the winners write the history books, so whoever has the quill is going to portray themselves as the 'good guys' and their defeated opponents as the 'black hats' - right?


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 July 2009, 14:48:01
@Talia: The quote you put in yellow takes what is there and tries to establish the fact that magical powers are related to the gods in order to explain the avataric concept. There will be things that will have to change of course. We're still far from actually defining how this all works, so far these are just random thoughts.

@Judy: I guess what you suggest is much more like the direction I can get accustomed to. Remember, the War of the Chosen's initial idea was that the Gods are jealous of the Children's free will, which they haven't got. This is the reason for the war, so that the Children fight the battle they cannot fight themselves.

If avatars are always good or bad and they'd e.g. hand that over to the firstborn that would be boring. In Carnivale this is handled that way that the firstborn (son) gets assigned a random alignment (good or bad) - and develops in that direction then. If an avatar is killed and doesn't have progeny a random child is selected to become avatar. - In Santharia we could use the central theme of the War of the Chosen, the freedom thing, as the key to the development of the avatars. Persons could have the seed of being an avatar in them, and in the process of realizing it, can decide to use it for the one side or the other - or stay neutral. The Gods of course hope that the war is decided that way, but they don't realize that the eternal fight that reiterates itself is actually what the Dream is all about.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 23 July 2009, 15:00:35
Quote
Persons could have the seed of being an avatar in them, and in the process of realizing it, can decide to use it for the one side or the other - or stay neutral.

Can this seed be somewhat hereditary?  That way, my Witches and their system of watchers, and manipulating family lines can play a part in this.  Not a simple, "if my dad was an avatar, I'll be one too", but simply the prpopensity for such an occurance.  And a line with a tendancy to go toward one side or the other, can be influenced by such manipulation.  For example, the Smiths have had a propensity for having evil side avatars (maybe 3 bad guys in the many years of the watchers chronicalling this), so they (the witches) try to get a Smith to breed with a Jones, because that family produces more good avatars.  Or conversely, breed a Jones with a Brown because the Browns also have produced more good avatars, and they want to produce the Ultimate good guy.

Actually, my Witches are hoping to reset the dream, so they are more likely to want to breed a Smith with another evil producing family line.  But thats all secret stuff, and fodder for the rumour mills.  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 23 July 2009, 15:46:23
Oh well, I think I will just wait some time and see, with what you are coming up. :)

Altario, I don't think, that there are people (your witches) which can have such a picture of the whole thing or be so set apart from the whole society, above history so to say, that they can actually manipulate the avatars. Maybe marry one to a certain other, but nothing which goes farther. I would even suppose, that they are not aware of those avatars, but acting more by accident. They have their genealogy plans and lines, but their own which might include an avatar, but they don't know it.

But maybe we should wait what Art comes up with and then ask him, if we could have a small piece :D


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 23 July 2009, 23:00:48
Unless the founder of the Witchess was an avatar.. from the neutral group perhaps.. and over the many years and generations.. the knowledge has been handed down, but the message was corrupted...

And I don't want the Witches to be too powerful with too much influence on this... just fine manipulators and watchers mostly.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 24 July 2009, 00:43:32
I'm not sure if this will help for the entry, but when he died, Eckra the Cruel held in his possession  this tome (http://www.santharia.com/artifacts/tome_of_time.htm) which in some senses served as a compilation of some of his knowledge.  The tome passed into the hands of Raeis Boldsnout, so in some sense he could be viewed as an avatar who succeeded Eckra way down the line.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 July 2009, 02:31:17
Everything on the site helps a bit to put the pieces together regarding the details of the lives of the Chosen, the question is how we'll rearrange things if it is necessary :)

Some more general points:

- A "hereditary only" system couldn't really work for various reasons. It would especially limit things drastically that are possible with the idea. Basically I would recommend that the divine power can move or be moved by another avatar, maybe in conjunction with being hereditary, into persons, and into objects. But I would warn of doing some sort of "gen pool" avatarism. Avatars are extremely unique beings and there are not more than a handful living at the same time. You'd devaluate the concept otherwise.

Some thoughts on where avatars can give their powers:

a) The avatar can realize his/her potential and the "dark side" or the "good side" can eventually define that person and make that person what it is, contribution to good and evil of the world in general if you so want. Indirectly my example of the Carnivale show which uses Earthen persons suggests that Caligula, Vlad the Impaler (=better known as "Dracula" in literature), Rasputin were a dark avatars, while Buddha and Jesus Christ were white avatars (just see it as an experiment of thought, not a religious statement) - and I assume the show would eventually have worked towards Hitler as the next dark one give the timeframe it takes place. So these would show the peaks of avatarism. Such people seem to have realized what potential they have and they used it to heal, resurrect etc. or to wage war etc. Note that it isn't really necessary that these people are directly related to a God or something, they might just do what they think is their role in the world.

b) The avatar might not realize these powers at all or rejects the potential, still the person is the "carrier". The powers would be dormant. Yet, say, the power could be inherited to the firstborn. (We wouldn't want whole generations of avatars so that needs to be limited.)

c) The avatar could give the power to someone else. Being able to direct the powers, it could be a willful act to hand the power over and get rid of it.

d) The avatar might die and the power searches for a new "host", e.g. "possesses" the next person around.

e) The avatar could channel the power and put it in an object (see the sword). This way an avatar might also find a properly aligned person to continue his/her task, as in case an avatar dies an object might hold the avataric essence. Only if a person properly aligned to that essence comes in contact with it, the essence might create the new avatar.

So we could work along these parameters, which gives us ample room to play around with it.

- "White" and "dark/black" are not adjectives I enjoy that much, guess some elven terms would fit better, they should be closely related to the elven view of the world.

- The avataric explanation behind the War of the Chosen and the avatars would be basically elven stuff (contained in the Mène'téka or something), the humans would have their own, very different, even severely contradictory stories. We have these in the Compendium already. But this is perhaps the time to finally clearly separate human from elven myth, as the humans tend towards "anthropomorphisms" like Gods courting other Gods and stuff, just like humans do. The elves see the Gods entirely different, and the reason why the War of the Chosen was/is thought would be very "elven". Humans might not believe a thing of all that.

- Once again: The avatar thing would not be plainly obvious everywhere. If the War of the Chosen entry is rewritten, we'd just construct the possibility of avatars from some sages' points of view, with some quotes etc., only suggesting such things and mention possible connections. So the ideas behind all that stuff would be mainly something for developers to be able to connect things a bit better behind the scenes, and that's it. The entry would still be written very ambigously.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 July 2009, 05:19:40
One more thing:

- I guess one could mark the difference between elven and human interpretation of the Gods in the fact that humans don't really follow the elven interpretation that Gods are representations of the Thoughts of Avá. The humans personify the Gods entirely, the elves see them more as principles that once were walking Caelereth in corporeal form.

Actually, Avá "left" the world, leaving her thoughts, the Gods, behind, and in the beginning of the War of the Chosen, it are the Gods who leave Caelereth. What they do is that they follow Avá's example, but just as Avá left the Gods in reality when she retreated, the Gods left their divine seeds in the Children.

The elves only worship what is left of the Gods, the principles, not the "persons" themselves as such. Human religion doesn't recognize that the Gods left and thus still personalize the Gods, praying to them, hoping for more or less direct reaction, which is something an elf just wouldn't do. From this point of view the human myths of the Gods, where they are treated as humans with feelings and emotions, derive.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 24 July 2009, 05:34:36
Ah, the sword Arthur only could draw out of this rock... well thought out this stuff..

I have a slight problem here though:

Quote
Actually, Avá "left" the world, leaving her thoughts, the Gods, behind, and in the beginning of the War of the Chosen, it are the Gods who leave Caelereth. What they do is that they follow Avá's example, but just as Avá left the Gods in reality when she retreated, the Gods left their divine seeds in the Children.

The humans still believe in the gods and that they are granting wishes/reacting to prayers , that is ok - but from the developers view this is not very satisfying, for then I have to say, that the gods are not able to fulfil wishes, if hey are not longer 'here'. Saying, that they can react from a distance is not what leaving the world implies. And saying, that the belief itself is the force which allows the "wonders" to take place is not very satisfying either... then I have nothing else than Ximax, just maybe that it is raw magic, or Xeua??? I didn't plan the possibility of a direct intervention of the gods, but that they work through the magic principles/laws of this world, but , well, the absence of the gods is a difficult issue. 


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Seeker on 24 July 2009, 05:42:03
Regarding why they are fighting in the first place: I imagine that Coor's reason for the war may be based on the idea of "free will" but I can also envision he recruits (manipulates) others based on what influences them.  

Regarding which Gods are "evil"and which are "Good":  It can be seen that some of the Gods such as Armeros are conflicted and could be persuaded by Coor to follow his side at least for the duration of the War of the Chosen.  It would make sense that each God would have their own story as to why they chose the good side or the bad side (and I imagine some switched sides part way through).  I don't think we should discount romantic love as an influence for some of the Gods. The quote below comes from the Armeros entry as an example of thee concepts:

Quote
At one time elves and humans alike worshipped the Twelve together, but changes began to happen and differences of opinion crept in. Finally a high priestess named Kásh'áv'taylá turned the elves away from the other Gods and caused much more jealousy among them than they had ever felt before. Coór created a desire in the hearts of the Gods that the elves should be punished for this disloyalty, and convinced Armeros of the justness of this desire.

With Armeros to spur them on the other races attacked the elves, only to strengthen their resolve and convictions. It was during this time of struggle that the Goddess of Death, Queprur, fell in love with Armeros and was rejected by him for the lovely and giving Goddess of Life, Jeyriall, with whom he had already coupled and produced offspring. Queprur, scorned, sought her revenge on the mortal realm, raising up a bloodthirsty elven female named Avásh’aelía, or as the humans named her, the “Bone Queen”. The stories of that time may be read in many chroniclers’ tomes elsewhere (read more e.g. in Dalá'Valannía's story "A Hall of Broken Mirrors")


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 July 2009, 05:42:36
@Talia: We've said it all along that we need to develop as if Gods don't necessarily exist. That's the premise to allow multiple belief systems.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 24 July 2009, 06:24:19
Oh, I was not suggesting a "hereditary only" system, Art.  Only that it could be viewed as such by the Witches.  That, like a recessive gene in some people where only when propogation with another carrier of the recessive gene brings out the ailment, the witches are trying to influence where and how these avatars are brought out.  Whether they can or cannot is almost irrelevant to the belief that they can.

What the Witches could believe is:

Johnny Rotten was a black avatar... so he has 100% blood
his children 50%
Grandcildren 25%
Great grand kiddies 12.5%
etc etc


So, Mabel Melovent has 6%... breed her to Alec Antagonistic who has 10%
Their children now have 8%  if they can find another carrier, say Timothy Tantrum, who has 14% they can breed an 11% child.. and so on and so on...


So, you see, the hereditary system is very hard to create an avatar.  Would take many generations and careful records (which is where the Chroniclers come in), and in truth, one could never create a 100% avatar... so, that final element, must come from the gods themselves... the Witches are only improving the chances.. buying more lottery tickets in a way... but the the avatar could come from anywhere....

This would completely vex the Witches, forcing them to reexamine all their records and figure out what they missed and where.

Like I have stated though... the Witches may or may not have any actual relevance to the avatars showing up... but they believe that they do... therefore they keep trying...

That said, it would be nice if they could have a couple of avatars over the years that they can claim was the result of their actions, whether this is truth or simply coincidence, or even something the Witches have molded to show their power... as in, they manipulated the marriage of Mabel and Timothy, and their child was supposed to be a minor 11% carrier of the blood, but this child grew to be an avatar... simply a coincidence... but the Witches would not see it as thus... they would see it as a result of their influence and the fact that it should not have happened then was simply a mistake in the geneaology.

As well, I would like an evil tyrant avatar that can be blamed on the Witches that led to their loss of their high place in society and the turn to a more secret cult... again... lets not let the facts stand in the way of perception.... they can be blamed for a Hitler, even if the truth of it is, they did not create him....

Hope this is somewhat clearer... :)


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 24 July 2009, 06:46:53
Something came to me this morning that I thought was interesting and might in some way be of help/interest with this.

The Exemplars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exemplars_(comics)) were a group of eight villains in the Marvel Comics series ... the most famous of them is Juggernaut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut_(comics)), who was in the 3rd X-Men movie. In any case, there were these eight beings who left behind items (each one with alliteration in the name) that contained a small figment of their powers. The first human who would touch each one ... would take on those powers and transform into avatars of said beings. They would then create some kind of device and they would fight it out to see which one of them was the greatest.

In any case, I thought that was interesting and might be of some use/interest with regards to the War of the Chosen.

Another thing is in the Raymond E Feist set of books, in which some of the characters - Nakor and Ralan Bek amongst them - had slivers of gods in them. Not sure if that is of help here or not, but once again thought it was an interesting thing to point out.

Anyway, there you go :D


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 24 July 2009, 07:33:51


@ Art:

Quote
@Talia: We've said it all along that we need to develop as if Gods don't necessarily exist. That's the premise to allow multiple belief systems.

We agreed - back then -  that we do not say, that they exist, but neither, that they don't exist. But if they have left (from developers point), they don't exist as a fact, for there is not even the possibility of their existence in the world nor the chance of them acting in the world. 

From developer's point, their existence could still be unknown: The elves believe, that they are gone, the humans not. That would leave all options open.

But if you want to have no gods, so just say so, I don't care if they are still here or not nor if they did ever exist. What Takór will write is another chapter...  :grin:


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 July 2009, 14:34:54
Quote
From developer's point, their existence could still be unknown: The elves believe, that they are gone, the humans not. That would leave all options open.]From developer's point, their existence could still be unknown: The elves believe, that they are gone, the humans not. That would leave all options open.

Exactly. I didn't say that they don't exist - I said "we need to develop as if Gods don't necessarily exist". All options open.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 July 2009, 02:59:02
@Altario: If the witches want to believe that, well ok, but with all those calculations and gene stuff, examing records etc. this doesn't sound that fantasy-like to me personally. That's why I'd strongly recommend to go for pure avatars and much easier to follow rules on how they "travel throughout the centuries". But anything witches want to believe and is described in a more fantasy fashion that doesn't remind too much of gene pools, could work parallel to the main concept (which is pretty much a background myth anyway).

@Seeker: Rewriting the War of the Chosen so that it is somewhat consistent can't be done without casualties of existing stuff which might need to be altered. Though we need to find that point to sort that out and make the differences between e.g. elven and human mythology clear - and there needs to be a big difference. I'm trying to finally address that in the process of rewriting the War of the Chosen, as we've tarried too long on the issue. Now would be the time, or more clearly: Now or never, because if we don't do it we will just develop along in a certain mishmash of mythology and never get anywhere with larger concepts. Some things will have to redefined, no doubt about it.

And yes, there are lots of stories on how the Gods interacted with each other. Many of them I'd attribute to human mythology. Note as well that the Gods walked on Caelereth in both, human and elven, myths, teaching the Children. They also left the world in both mythologies as far as I know, retreating what the humans might call "heaven", only their general role, relationships to each other and their interference with the world and their mingling in all things "wordly" is interpreted entirely differently by the races. At least that's the idea.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 25 July 2009, 04:48:05


Altario, let's see, how the witches evolve, I never know, what the result of an entry will be, for so many things come to my mind along the way. Dig them out and then we will see, from where we can start and where we will go. In the end there might be something you find even more fantastic than the idea you have now in your head.

Elves: I agree, that we need a totally different race, not humans with pointed ears, so let us find the differences!

Gods in human myths: we have already a lot of myths which tell us that the gods act like humans (not elves) in some stories, but I would like to have the Santharian not "too" "human", so that we can have a difference to the icetribe gods also.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Seeker on 25 July 2009, 12:57:47
I know I am over my head when Art responds to my entry and I don't even understand how it relates to what I wrote.   :D Yep I think I'll gracefully sit this one out and see what develops, I just don't have enough experience here to understand what is going on.  I am very interested to see how it turns out though. :thumbup:  


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 July 2009, 16:30:05
Menemronn was now added in the information collection post on page 1 of this thread, along with further players of the Battle of Winds, Yairok, Coulande and Dra'va'ensle. At the bottom there's now a small summary on the Battle of Winds as well. Names definitely will have to change as well, especially if they are only mentioned once or twice without any concrete ideas on what they actually stand for.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Morden Peshirgolz on 25 July 2009, 20:20:34
Hey Art, reading through this I had a quick question: Who is the avatar of Urtengor?

This is very interesting, Art, I look forward to what you come up with.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 25 July 2009, 20:41:58
That's new, your formulation of the Battle of Winds? It is so hard sometimes to find stuff *sigh*

'electrical charge' is too modern

The new Chosens are newly invented, right?



Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 July 2009, 21:16:48
No, nothing new here. The Battle of Winds stuff has mainly been gathered from a short summary by Drogo in the Library (see here (http://www.santharia.com/library_old/tales/battle_of_winds.htm)).

@Morden: No information added yet who is the avatar for which God, and I guess there's nothing been specified on Urtengor so far. Still collecting information. Then this all has to be reviewed and thought through etc. Will last quite a while till anything gets on site.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 25 July 2009, 22:45:08
That's strange, I did not find it on the first two search pages this morning. Now, that I gave in "Of the Battle.. " I found it, and just "Battle of... " as well.  :huh:   :veryconfused:

Quote
Rumors of Eckra's coming flew ahead of his army. Reports soon reached the white archmages Coulande in the south and Dra'va'ensle, the half-elven, in the west. Messengers raced between the two kingdoms, and it was decided to join together to combat Eckra.

So I could eventually claim Coulande for me? Hmm, but I might need a bad one as well, or at least one that stays and causes disaster, may it be out of evil intends or just bad luck , an unhappy event, or a drama like situation.

Should the disaster then take place at the same time as in the North?

And what is the "west"? Ximax or Nybelmar?


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 July 2009, 23:23:25
You find it as the first entry if you use "battle of winds" with the apostrophe and the option "all search words".

The directions most likely refer to the "Peninsula Dinal" (which is actually "Kr'uul" where Eckra's Forbidden Zone lies), west of Eight Winds Bay. So they are all northern Sarvonian guys I assume. At least they were intended to be. Concerning dates: It is only important that the War of the Chosen (in Sarvonia) officially ended with Ma'asherom, ca. 9000. When a demise of another Chosen happens isn't that important right now, it needs to happen between 9500 and 9000 and it needs to be brought into context when the timeline is defined.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 26 July 2009, 00:13:41
I see, I didn't use the apostrophes, thought the searchengine wold work the way that it shows the most likely combination (what would be battle of winds with both words in the header).



Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Morden Peshirgolz on 26 July 2009, 05:50:14
Thanks Art. If you'll bear with one more question, what would be the dwarves' opinions/myths concerning this event? Or is that some that Bard Judith has to determine? That's partly why I was wondering who the avatar of Urtengor was.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (rewrite)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 July 2009, 17:26:24
First of all: I guess at some point it needs to be elaborated in an entry more clearly that the human/elven God Urtengor is not identical with Trum'Baroll. That's more the point of view the humans have - that the dwarves just borrowed their God and made him their own. A dwarf wouldn't see it that way.

Secondly, the avataric concept of the War of the Chosen would be mainly found in elven texts. Maybe humans have another interpretation of why there are various "archmages" battling each other, which is not primarily God-related. This all to make the differences in the religious beliefs pretty clear.

Besides, not even an Urtengor avatar might be aware of being an Urtengor avatar. It still needs to be evaluated what are the benefits of actually having avatars directly related to Gods in the long run - or if it isn't necessary to deal with it so strictly, or not all the way through. An Urtengor avatar might for example utilize dwarves in his battles as he might be able to rally them behind himself due to his alignment, so that's something to consider.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 27 July 2009, 02:28:48
I've changed this thread's name now to "The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)" and will make another one that will contain the entry eventually. The gathered "facts" were moved at the top of the thread now as well.

Added were now details on Raeis Boldsnout and the Tome of Time, so it is a possibility that Raeis is now an avatar. Also added were details on the Or'injerá Sword, which probably was used by Eckra, and the demonic Midnight Blade, which also was used by a Chosen. A white Chosen of the Battle of Winds seems to have been an Injerín, probably the guy who was referred to as "Dra'va'ensle".


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Morden Peshirgolz on 27 July 2009, 02:31:19
Thanks again for the clarification. I just want to figure out how the dwarves would be involved in this part of history, since I am still interested in their ancient history.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 27 July 2009, 04:45:18
I would forsee a direct Avatar-God link as an issue, particularly for more exclusive Chosen like Menemronn who it would be hard to tie down. Perhaps its more a perception of Godly lineage?


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 27 July 2009, 14:41:57
Yes, that's a good point. I guess the best way would be to let the Gods first chose their avatars, thus "Chosen". Yet, due to the concept of free will taking over, the Children develop to something else eventually, maybe implicitly, maybe explicitly turning away from their gods, making the divine powers their own.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 27 July 2009, 17:19:00
Would the Gods (or at least some of them) then strike down their Children due to their children's arrogance of taking on the divine powers their own? Something like that happened in some terran myths at any case at least, I'm certain.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 27 July 2009, 17:24:19
I doubt it - because the divine powers are in the hands of the Children. The Gods don't interfere in that way in the battle they created themselves (=elven interpretation).


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 28 July 2009, 04:11:40
A short update here:

- I've dug up more details on Ma'asherom, whose sorceress Cyrella was killed in the attack of Eu'reoll (see entry on the High Avá'ránn (http://www.santharia.com/people/high_avarann.htm)).

- And there's an explicit mentioning of Queprur's Chosen, namely a certain "Saria Starlight", a guy you find mentioned at the Old Weavers entry (http://www.santharia.com/magic/old_weavers.htm). More details in the Weavers (http://www.santharia.com/magic/weavers.htm) entry, which I've added in his section.

- Eckra BTW is also referred to as the "Chosen of Queprur" at his picture, maybe because it's pretty much a picture of a necromancer.

- Mirhan the Just can now pretty much also be identified with the White Chosen of the Kanapan Lands, where you have a brief indirect mentioning of him in the Kanapan Men (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/kanapans.htm) entry. Given the other options, Mirhan must be the one who is referred there.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Bard Judith on 28 July 2009, 10:06:50
Re Urtengor / TrumBaroll: 

When the dwarves 'found out' about Urtengor - along with all the other gods the humans worship - their general attitude was, and remains to this day (with a few notable exceptions such as the Zurghurim on Ximax) faintly contemptuous and amused... rather 'oh well, what can you expect from humans?'

  Of course, their faithful devotion to a single deity would lead them to conclude that Urtengorism is a mere faux-rock copy of dwarven worship, which after all has been established for thousands of years in an unbroken chain and recorded (graven on rock, to be precise) without error or oral distortion.   Without attempting to make any value judgements in real life, it might be compared to the way Orthodox Jews feel about modern Israelis, perhaps, or fundamentalist Christians about Mormon beliefs, with varying degrees of tolerance thereto.

 Dwarven belief binds the entire culture so consistently that it is difficult for them to make any separations or philosophical distinctions.  To clarify, your typical Thergerim would, if pressed, say something like "We have the right way, the only way, the faithful way which assures us of an afterlife, and you others are:" (pick one) "condemned by God / sorely mistaken / bound for a big surprise / blurring the message"

I haven't really thought about dwarven 'evangelists' - it may be that faith is so much a part of their culture that they assume non-dwarves actually cannot be 'saved' or be 'true follower', or it may be that they simply matter-of-factly see it as so obvious that 'this is the only way' that they are more inclined to shake their head over the obtuse blindness of all the other races and cultures which deny or dilute the Anvil-Lord's existence and supremacy?   - but possibly any one  (human, elf, hobbit, orc, etc.) who of his own accord 'sees the firelight' of TrumBaroll's forge and desires to follow Him would be accepted and given access to the Book of Rocktales ...('Trumesdrumerons', I think)

Humans who think, or at least who express, the concept that TrumBaroll is a copy of Urtengor, on the other hand, will be very forcefully and quickly 'set straight' with the physical evidence of ten thousand years of sacred carvings, and possibly the sharp edge of a very large battleaxe.  Or whatever other item of persuasion the listening Thergerim has to hand....


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 28 July 2009, 14:49:55
Yep, exactly. There are of course entries on the site that suggest otherwise, as is the case with a lot of mythical/historical stuff or stuff that concerns belief. Upon further development such things are often taken for granted and can lead in an entirely different direction. This is especially true as far as older entries are concerned.

So what is important is that we have those differences at least roughly, but very clearly defined, as it will take anyway quite a while until this all makes it in proper form on the site. But things like should be clear: What is the standard elven/human/dwarven creation myth? How is the basic belief outlines? What are the key figures related to this belief (prophets, titans, avatars etc.)? We'd move a huge step forward if we can nail that down.

I also think e.g. of a special marker (probably an icon) in the history tables to mark mythical stuff (maybe a race specific icon?), cause right now we cannot really separate these event from other facts. And one by-product of all the rework for the War of the Chosen should be to get the mythical timelines for the key races done.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Bard Judith on 29 July 2009, 05:26:56
Hmmm, so I should look more closely at the Ylossian stuff Morden has so carefully put together....

While I'm very fond of writing mythologies, I'm dreadful at 'real' history for some reason!  Also not at my home computer, which has some background and unpublished information I'd need to prepare a 'mythical timeline'.  However, there might be enough onsite already to piece together a rough dwarven perspective (jokes about 'lower' or 'belt-line-of-sight' are not appreciated here) on their history - which of course is bound up inextricably with their beliefs. 


An icon would be VERY helpful. What about the already existing golden circle shape used in the Compendium to signal Religion?    Or, if you want a race-specific one, use the golden circle with an overlaid (embossed?) leaf, ax, bone, muffin, etc. for the different races  (elf, dwarf, orc, hobbit...) :)

Perhaps we could do a group project to design one main 'faith symbol' for each major religion (NOT race-specific)?

From both a developer's pov and an in-world perspective, this would be very helpful.  It would give us some cool graphics to use in Religion entries, icons for maps in the future, references for banners, backgrounds, stained glass windows, architecture, etc. for our artists, and literary references for our authors.   Just as the cross stands for Christianity, the lotus for Buddhism, the six-pointed star for Judaism and the crescent for Islam, it should be possible to extract a common symbol that worshippers hold in common. 


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 30 July 2009, 02:49:43
Well, the religion icon alone might no be enough, for one because there surely also are some pre-history myths where religion is not directly involved, so that why we'd require some sort of "myth" icon perhaps. But maybe that's not really necessary and would lead to more confusion. If neutral this icon could basically mean "historically unconfirmable" or something. Hmmm...

The race would need to be there somewhere, could also be written as text, but the question is where we'd place that text and how it would look like that way. An icon is always better, though combining an icon with another one (say placing a hammer on the faith symbol) probably won't show that faith icon enough. Maybe show the icons next to each other? Hmmm...

Ermm... Probably I should have read your post in detail before starting to write, because it dawns on me: So your conclusion actually sounds best, Judy: Single, relatively simple icons for key religions sounds like the best idea indeed, I agree with that. :D There can be races with the same religion, so it probably shouldn't be race specific. Would serce the purpose well.

Plus, say, if we reserve a spot for icons on the history tables (an own column?) - then we could use that spot for other icons as well. Like: A crown for a crowning, or crossed swords for a battle. You could then scroll down a history table and have a graphical key marks that help you to orientate yourself. - What do you think?

P.S.: The hobbit muffin... :rofl:


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 30 July 2009, 05:12:41
Splendid idea! I love icons - helps tremendously with scanning a text. I always scribe  markers and shorthand symbols along the margins whenever I study something ;) Definitely a visual learner/memorizer here :)


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Bard Judith on 30 July 2009, 06:21:21
Ditto!  Glad you two like the idea... now to brainstorm some possible concept pictures for the various 'main' religions....

(Throws a hobbit muffin at Art, a fresh Myrddin Falcon quill at Coren, and runs off back to her study)


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 08 September 2009, 12:16:40
Oh I just saw this and I like it!

A few small inconsistencies have come up in my research in clearing up the Folkmore elves stuff:

1. The elven survivors of the War of the Chosen were Injerin, not Folkmore, as detailed in my Themed'lon Forests entry. Judging from the Injerin history tables, there were Injerin white mages involved in the war. A small sect moved to the Themed'lon to rebuild after the war.

2. My revised Mystran entry never hinted that the Mystrans may have been created during the War of the Chosen, even though the War entry states they did. My bad oversight, and I will need to revise the Mystran entry to reflect some mythology/lore of this. I only gave their origins as possibly happening during the Third Sarvonian War when Osthemangar's doors were opened allowing the Netherworld influence into Caelereth.

3. Were dragons used in the War of the Chosen? I wrote in my Kalta'Goor entry that dragons were more prevalent during the War and shrank to small numbers afterwards. Some survivors came to inhabit the far North producing the snow drakes and, of course, eventually the undead dragon Ezorrak.


Title: Re: The War of the Chosen (fact finding thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 September 2009, 04:44:03
1. Ok, good to have that input. Whenever possible try to make history events out of developments of tribes or take existing entries, change the necessary passages and mark them, so that I can substitute texts in the final table!

2. Yep, the more mysterious the origin, the better :)

3. Dragons were definitely used in the WoC, I'd say. It's only logical to have the most powerful beasts involved in that struggle of the eternal. Besides it is mentioned that Capher's guy Ethan had a dragon, so there were definitely a bunch more, most likely event adamant dragons, and Ol'dem'brey (the one Katya confronted during the Dragonstorm) was probably the last of his kind.