Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Places and Map Design => Topic started by: Azhira Styralias on 09 June 2010, 23:53:04



Title: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 09 June 2010, 23:53:04
Welcome to the official development thread of the as yet unnamed Santharian Magical Island! This entry has been approved as a group development project so any and all comments, discussion and work is encouraged from everyone! This thread will be the main dev thread. PLEASE FORMALLY POST HERE IF YOU WISH TO CONTRIBUTE. GENERAL COMMENTING IS ENCOURAGED.

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Personnel and Contributors:

Altario
Azhira
M'ruk
Bard Judy
Valan
Athviaro

What We Know So Far:

The Island

A beautiful paradise... low mountains, lush jungle, clear skies, white sand beaches
Floating island, cannot be placed on a map and found again
has been encountered by sailors for thousands of years
enshrouded in a fog like mist from the outside, but once inside, the fog is no longer seen
can look out from the fog, but not seen into
a large natural harbour is always the side of the island that a ship will encounter


The People

Biou
pygmy like dark skinned people
very friendly
innocent
villages are small and there only a few of them
non magical, except maybe some rudimentary druid like magic for healing, crops etc

Voulla
regular sized folk
distrustful
shy
guardians of the island (may be magical)
protectors of the Biou (though they don't interact)
villages: unknown

Discussion Questions:

Discussion Question #1
A formal name needs to be decided for the island (from Bard Judy).
Quote
And Pratchett quite cheerfully admits his debt to the earlier stories.... however, while I am a rock-solid fan of Terry's, I think something a bit more medieval AND Tolkienesque would be more appropriate.  The name of the island should obviously be in line with the language spoken there and the names of its inhabitants....

A name has been decided! Chelonae is the official name.

Discussion Question #2
A mythology background (From Artimidor).
Quote
My main question would be how we'd establish a theoretical or at least semi-mythical background how that island exists and why. There could be multiple options, and nothing is conclusive, as is the case with many a myth, though we'd need to have these ideas then at least.

Discussion Question #3
A general purpose of the island (from Alt).
Quote
But, the island acts as a kind of haven for those in trouble (becalmed without supplies, damaged ships after a storm, etc), but not everyone rescued are good people.  The Biou represent pure innocence.  They don't war, they are trusting.  A pirate ship, therefore, might run amok among these people, but the Voulla are there to ensure that the Biou are protected.  As well, greedy entrepreneurs might want to exploit the islands resources, colonize it, etc.  Therefore, the Voulla protect the island from this.  It is supposed to be an unblemished paradise in the world.  The Biou are part of this, while the Voulla are outside of this in order to protect it.  To fight evil, sometimes one has to use evil.  (Not that Voulla are inherently evil, just not afraid to do whatever it takes)

Discussion Question #4
A general location (from Talia).
Quote
Keep the sightings really South, if you imagine it lush and jungle-like. South of Nybelmar, south of Sarvonia (take the name on the map) and west of Yamalquain.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 10 June 2010, 00:08:18
I was thinking, Azhira, why don't we move this to the Northern Forum?  Is not a true North Project, but there we are both Mods, so we can both edit as needed.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 10 June 2010, 00:11:54
Perhaps (although this may not work) give the Voulla some very powerful magic, but with the stipulation that it can only be used to defend the island - maybe the island itself is the source of the power? More ideas somewhere, but I've got to go!!


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 10 June 2010, 03:32:21
Ok, to pick up my train of thought, perhaps the Biou themselves, in their innocence, are the source of it and the Voulla can almost use this innocence to defend it? Kind of like a tap or pipe - it doesn't make the water, but you need it to get to the water.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Agran Velion on 10 June 2010, 05:17:11
The Voulla strike me as very...agile people. Perhaps using long ranged weapons to keep their identity hidden? Light armor to escape into the shadows quickly? They also seem like they would know many secret paths, hidden spots, etc in order to quickly and subtley traverse the island?


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 10 June 2010, 05:22:09
Well let's just look at the way things work, shall we?

The island itself is obscured by "magic". It can only be found by those in need. That already cuts down on the number of people who could arrive there, and is probably more magic than we need.

The Voulla seem like they shouldn't need magic. A modified version of Clarke's law comes into play here I think: Sufficiently advanced X is indistinguishable from magic. Something that is seemingly magical in its effect, but not in its cause.

Maybe they're very sneaky. Maybe they're in tune with the island. The disadvantage of being a stranger in a strange land is that almost anyone will know it better than you. So it might seem mystical that they can blend into the scenery, appear seemingly at will and all that good stuff, but there's really nothing magical about it. Maybe they're a little like the morlocks (live underground, generally terrifying). Essentially what Agran is getting at. Keeping in mind that this is a people existing almost in isolation.

The arrangement really reminds me of Ringworld for some reason.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 10 June 2010, 05:24:15
Yes, which could seem like magic to visitors? To clarify, I did not mean that the Voulla have these powers, but that the legends give them these. Quite important on a semi-mythical island. Or they could have some fairly serious magic, but not as powerful as people say.

EDIT: I see that I should have posted earlier on this subject, Val. I didn't mean them actually to have these powers


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 10 June 2010, 05:26:51
*sigh*

Are there no fresh ideas left in the world?

Hehe, I really need to expand my Fantasy fiction read books list.  So far, LoTR Trilogy, Dragonlance Chronicles (the original Trilogy) are about it.  The rest is movies or TV.  All my other reading is Historical Fact.

Do I need to lookup Ringworld in order to distinguish it from it, or are we far enough away already?


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 10 June 2010, 05:40:15
I think the problem is, Ath, from my perspective, you're doing things backwards. Trying to spin mythology out of whole cloth instead of building it around the base of facts and meta. Or building a house roof first.

@Alt: Ringworld is science fiction, Niven's to be precise. It's quite good, and tends to eschew science for interesting where it can.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Agran Velion on 10 June 2010, 05:43:07
Never even heard of Ringworld, and my Fantasy reading is as short as yours.

Eragon books, Some Warhammer, the Hobbit, and Rangers Apprentice...which realy isn't fantasy.

Never read LOTR (I've been meaning to though)

Perhaps there could be magical items on the island? Or rather, plants and things that have amazing/unqiue effects? Maybe we could go for a Pandora from Avatar like island, where everything is amazing and unknown to the strangers. Rocks that glow in the dark, flying plants, etc. In fact, I have an idea for Voulla arrows.

Arrow shafts are covered in liquid taken from plants or trees, could be sap/whatever. The liquid basically acts like oil.

The arrowhead could be made of flint.

Voulla strike arrowhead on piece of metal attached to their person. Spark lights the 'oil', they shoot arrow.

Boom, you Voulla capable of magic arrows.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 10 June 2010, 06:15:05
@Valan: The reason it appeared like that was because I only had time to get my key ideas down, not the reasoning behind them. Genuinely, I did not ever intend them actually to have vast powers.
@ Agran: I would class R.A. as fantasy, but that's just me  :P Seriously, has no-one here read Eddings? In my opinion, as great as LOTR any day of the week. Try the Belgariad and the Mallorean (it might interest you to know that Paolini was heavily influenced by Eddings, especially the Belgarian. Look for the similarities, like the mark on the palm, illiteracy, old man who is really very old and a magic-user, but first appears as story teller, who is secretly his ancestor... the list goes on.)

Athviaro


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 10 June 2010, 06:30:54
I just took 12 Eddings books out from the library 2 hours ago after reading Belgarath the sorcerer and Polgara the sorceress. Bloody amazing, I can tell you that.

Anyway, I agree with Agran and Valan here. Not that I disagree with you, Ath. I think they should most of them should minor magical powers but there should be a few, perhaps charged with keeping the island hidden, that have immense magical powers, either trained into them like hereditary rulers are trained in statesmanship or just naturally born with it.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 10 June 2010, 07:51:48
Ath: I've read Eddings forwards, backwards, upside down and sideways. The Belgariad, the Malleoreon, the Elenium, the Tamuli, Redemption of Athalus (the best of the lot), Belgarath and Polgara and the Dreamers, I've even got a copy of the Rivan Codex. I binged on the stuff, and by the time I'd gotten to the Tamuli, you could see the "twists" coming a mile away. When you get down to it, it's all pretty much the same book. Not quite Tolkien.

Look, making the people magical is not going to make things easier. In the long run, it would be easier to say that the island itself is magical, rather than giving the people living on it magic (since that would pose a snake's nest of problems all it's own).

If the island is magic, that means that the fog barrier is inherent to the island, as is the source of locomotion (assuming it's not on the back of a turtle, or a bunch of seaweed or something) rather than some spell cast by a person.

Because if you were to look at it, you would have to ask why they would allow anyone to come near the island in the first place, if they were controlling such powerful magic? They could stop pirates and ne-er-do-wells from ever coming near the island. Those questions become moot if the island is magical because it could simply be the nature of the magic on the island. The fewer questions you have to answer like that, the easier it to focus on things that are important.

As simple as possible, and no simpler. This doesn't mean shallow, it just means that we shouldn't do things because everyone seems to think it's a good idea at the time.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 10 June 2010, 07:54:27
Let's try to keep discussions on the given questions so we can start to get a direction here. The magic issue is part of Alt's proposition in question #3.

My thoughts:

Name

I voted Chelonae because is sounded nice and exotic to me.

Mythology

We can't just pluck a floating island out of nowhere. A semi-mythical background is essential to explaining the nature and purpose of the island. I feel that the island should have an origin somewhere in the far past. I personally like the myth that it appeared from the Ethereal Void somewhere in the far South. The Void is a perfect excuse to create people and things far removed from current Caelereth knowledge. I created the Mists as a way to create strange, twisted things, places and people that wouldn't ordinarily fit anywhere else. The Void is wide open to all sorts of strange myth and it would explain the uniqueness of the island and its inhabitants.

Purpose

I like Alt's generalization. I like the idea that the island is a removed place that only certain people in certain situations ever get to visit. If everyone visited the island, then there would be nothing mythical about it! If everyone visited the Mists, then what mystery would there be? The island opens itself to unique and special individuals and only a small handful of information ever gets out. Those that do visit the island finds a paradise never before seen.

Goodly folk who visit the island find a fascinating place to rest and study. Perhaps evil people may want to take advantage of the island and its people. I don't feel that the island's natives have a choice in the matter of who comes and goes. I think the island itself should be "alive" of sorts.

Location

I think it should remain in the Southern areas as a mystical place in warmer climates. We already have a mystical place in the North (Mists) and one in middle Santharia (Thaelon) so a deep south location is best in my view.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Valan Nonesuch on 10 June 2010, 08:09:56
Location Keep it to the West of Sarvonia. The east is a little on the crowded side in terms of islands. Quel'tra'loh, the Crimson Isles, R'unor and Nybelmar are all over there. There's plenty of open sea where they might not show up for a while in the south-west on the other hand, but enough traffic that they'd still encounter sailors, since Denilou, Quios and Doranthakar are all over there.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 10 June 2010, 08:21:14

Name

I voted Chelonae because is sounded greek and I'm a history buff. :)

Mythology

I agree with Azhira.  The mythology is almost central to this.  This isn't a place you go visit and hear mythical stories about.  The place is the myth. (see Location)

Purpose

Again, I agree with Azhira who agrees with me.  If it has a purpose, it should be speculated about, but nothing can be concrete because just not enough people have been able to get information on it.  They visit for a time, the Biou friendly and helpful, but always hinting that they should leave.  That "bad things" will happen if they do not.  The bad things, of course, are the Voulla.


Location

I think the island should be seen everywhere water currents can take it.  This is not a competitor to the mists in any way.  It isn't a place that is static.  It floats everywhere, but is non intrusive.  Remember, this is not a place that is found once a year or more, maybe once in a generation.  If it were a real floating island, in order to travel the entire surface of the disk would take years and years.  And not everytime it passed by the north would people have found it.  You could specifically state that no one from Cael'her'oth (sp) has ever encountered it.  I don't want everytribe to have seen it, but enough of a diversity that it adds to the myth.  The fact that is so rarely seen means that it won't be particularly associated with any one place or any one people.  I would like an Antislar story about it, just as I would any other tribe.  I have story ideas already in my head for this.  Can you imagine the wonder of a far northerner whose ship is about to sink after hitting an iceberg, all fearing they are going to die in the icy water, then washing up on some sandy beach with a green jungle and short sleeve weather?  We can state that it is more frequently discovered in southern waters, whether because it is found there more or because southern waters have much more ships than the north, either one is plausible.  Because the Island is magical, weather on it does not have to be related to weather outside of it.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Agran Velion on 10 June 2010, 11:21:34
Quote
I think the island itself should be "alive" of sorts.

This reminds me so much of Lost...hmm *Thinks they should add two twin brothers that want to kill each other* Anyway, here my little rundown.

Name: I'm for Chelonae as well. It sounds Italian to me and it just rolls off the tongue.

Mythology-I'm with Alt for the Place IS the myth.

Purpose-...got nothing. Perhaps different cultures/tribes whose ancestors have seen the island have different speculations about its purpose?

Location
I think its movements should either be completely random, or, so complicated its nearly impossible to track it (like the island on Lost). Every day it should change. If someone were to record the days and locations of the island, it'd go like this.

Day 1-Southern Santharia, I can see the desert.
Day 2-Bunch of Islands...not sure where I am.
Day 3-Coast of Nybelmar
Day 4-Ocean
Day 5-Ocean
Day 6-Northern Sarvonia
Day 7-Ocean
ETC

And thats just around the developed regions, what about all the other continents? I like the idea of the island just moving rapidly from place to place with no regard for the physical laws of the world.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 10 June 2010, 12:11:32
Location:

Uhm... how can people track it?  You are putting in times that will never happen.  What is that Day 1-7 stuff?  A ship may find it in 1657, stay there a week, then leave and the island is not seen again for 12 years, but hundreds of Strals away from where the last ship found it.  You can't sit in your ship and follow it.  You don't have radar.  You can see out from it, but most of the time you'd just see open ocean, and if you did see land, it would just be on the horizon and difficult if not impossible to recognize as a specific spot.

This is more accurate.

769  First report of an island with a tribe called Biou of the southern coast of Strata

891 Mysterious island mentioned south of the Isles of Ram

1253 Pirate ship reports an island south of Ciosa

1589 An Antislar ship hits an iceberg, nearly goes under , but sailors claim they were saved when they landed on a green, warm island to make repairs

1664 An Avennorian merchant ship, becalmed for weeks, lands on a previously uncharted island.  Researcher ???? ?????, from the Compendium happened to be on board and took these first hand notes.  Upon his return to Santharia, further research has uncovered sketchy and unconfirmed reports by other ships over the years that bear striking resemblance to the Island Chelonae that he had experienced.  Consumed to the point of obsession, ???? has poured over thousands of seafares logs, journals, reports and rumours in order to piece together this sketchy picture of an island that seems to defy all logic by appearing in many different places over the years.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Agran Velion on 10 June 2010, 13:37:24
Thats the more accurate timeline. I was seeing it as if someone was recording and they were ON the island. I was focusing more on how the location changed so much rather than WHEN it changed.  Perhaps the island 'shifts' out of the reality (or our plane of existence), although I doubt this would be accepted, perhaps, if there are no people on the island (other than its normal inhabitats) it can go through the time? If we were the inhabitats and recording what happened it could go like this.

769  First report of an island with a tribe called Biou of the southern coast of Strata

891 Mysterious island mentioned south of the Isles of Ram

792 Pirate ship reports an island south of Ciosa

1589 An Antislar ship hits an iceberg, nearly goes under , but sailors claim they were saved when they landed on a green, warm island to make repairs


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 10 June 2010, 14:01:46
I'm confused Agran, if it was the inhabitants of the island recording others coming to their island, how would they know who the others were and the names of places that were north, south, east or west of their island? Why would they refer to themselves as 'a tribe called Biou'? The way you are describing it would be more likely to be done by strangers to the island who see it.

I believe that those on the island would be describing it from their point of view and to them the people coming to the island would be the strangers, not them.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Agran Velion on 10 June 2010, 14:14:14
I was just using that as an example, to help understand the way/time the island moves.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Mruk Loshashzuck on 10 June 2010, 15:17:48
I think there's another question to be answered here. If the island's a paradise, why would people leave?


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 10 June 2010, 15:20:00
Well, they are encouraged to leave by the Biou, backed up by the Voulla.  Secondly, just because the island is a beautiful paradise, no one else lives there.  It's small.  Most people have people and places to go home to.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 10 June 2010, 15:34:56
Ok, sorry, in my rush to get ideas down I think I messed up my point, so sorry about that Valan. I was saying that the stories give the Vuolla some serious powers, whether or not they have them. What's more, I tried writing that the Voulla may just act as conduits, so the power belongs to the island but is made manifest through the Voulla. Also, I find it hard to believe that sailors would call the island a source of the power - they would naturally attribute it to people (because that's human nature) and the secretive Voulla are the first choice for that.

Ok, I hope I clared that up.

And I don't think I know Redemption of Athalus, but I have read one of his few non-fantasy works, "The Losers".

Athviaro


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 11 June 2010, 02:03:36
We have several cool ideas posted now...we will need you Alt to start making some final decisions, even if small decisions, to go forward since it is your island concept.  :cool: I would gather the posted ideas and perhaps write up an overview of the island and its basic mythology to everyday Santharians in a compendiumist summary. It doesn't have to be final, but just enough to start basing other stuff from it. Once done, we can post it in my first post. Or, we can continue to toss ideas about until you get a comfortable picture.  :thumbup:



Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 June 2010, 04:36:48
A few things:

We definitely shouldn't start with who lives on the island and go back from there, cause in that case we'd begin with Dharma and the Others and end up with an Allison "Mother" Janney thingy like in LOST, who blatantly says: "Don't ask any more questions, as any question leads to another one." Which basically means: Just let's forget about what the island is.

We need to know first where the island comes from and why and how it exists. And which people live there and why is another matter that has to be based on that general idea.

Now the mythology of the island should of course have the mystery element in it, because if we'd know everything about it, it wouldn't be much of a myth. So I'd say: We should have a mythical outline on its genesis and the basic things regarding the why, where and how (developer's view), and in the entry this main theory could be heavily contested by various witnesses, researchers etc., because they have their own ideas on that myth. That's the main thing about a myth that nobody knows for sure, and if we present different sides of things that could explain the phenomenon or contribute to a side of its explanation, the whole thing gets anchored nicely into the world, from different perspective, while we have the main developer's view and can answer things for us whenever we need it.

So, main mythology on the genesis of the island: Personally I favour that idea Azhira also put forward to connect it with the Ethereal Void. The Void is magical, is a borderline region between dream and reality, and if the island comes from the southern Void it could be pretty much be a tropical setting.

It could be that a powerful mage tried e.g. to enter the Void from a very distant location and ripped a piece of it actually out of it. Maybe that piece of land flashes in and out of reality, because it cannot be held at that spot where he tried to move it, so that it actually moves back into the Void and gets out of it again (that could be its day/night cycle).

If the island is Void related we'd also have Dream and reality clash a bit, so it wouldn't be just a regular island floating around, there would be Dream/magic inherent in it, question would be of course how it could be harnessed etc. You can play around with time as well in such a concept, as the Void's concept as a dream region (link between reality and possibility) could exist out of time. So you could leave the island at a different time, in the past or the future. That's just a rough idea, which is however very LOSTish, and therefore not so brilliant.

In general we should be very careful not to get too close to a LOST scenario, we should wherever possible avoid similarities at all costs.

At any rate I guess that thinking along that mythology line is crucial to the whole concept, so I'd say we definitely need to start there, get that sorted out, and then think about what developed from there.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 11 June 2010, 04:46:57
I agree with Arti.  We need to work from the ground up.

#1 Question

Where is this island from and how did it come into being?

I, too, like the void theory.  I really don't want this to be a Santh Lost episode, however. 

Arti, the land masses are pushing outward from what I remember of those maps Talia sent me.  Aurellian (sp) is smaller now than it used to be.  What happens when it enters the void?  What if there was an island, normal enough, that got pushed to the edge of the void.  The Voulla, who practiced magic, saw trhe danger and combined their powers to pull their island away/out of the void?

Could that pluasibly explain the island?  I'd like to stay away from the cliche'd Ximaxian powerful mage tinkering with nature and having it blow up in his face scenario.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 June 2010, 05:08:18
The southern continent's name is Aeruillin. And while the landmass itself doesn't have any water in it, it is surrounded by water and islands could exist there. The transition between physical world and Void is a bit described in the Ethereal Void entry methinks, basically possibilities dominate over reality the further you enter the Void. The Memnoor Brownies live there on such a borderline and obviously manage to cope with it, taking advantage of the magical possibilities there.

An island could drift into the Void, quite literally. It could be that due to the fact that the physical reality doesn't dominate anymore, possibility takes over and the island can be sucked into the realm of possibilities. So it might be that people lived there and that the influence of the Void became stronger and stronger, yup.  :thumbup:

So yeah, there's a chance to explain it from that angle, definitely beats the magician idea, though we'd still need further details.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 11 June 2010, 05:18:10
Okay, so an Island off the coast of Aeruillin gets sucked into the void, then is pulled out by the magical Voulla.  The properties of the void have taken the island somewhat out of time and space, allowing it to "float" freely in the oceans of the disk.  Now, to look up people from Aeruillin to tie the Voulla and Biou to.

I know the Kanapan are dark skinned.  Are there any dark skinned tribes in Aerillin, or someplace else close to the void where we could put the original island?  (I was hoping to keep them dark skinned.  Works well with the tropical environment, as well as making it exotic to otherwise European style tribes of Sarvonia). 

If we can nail down a tribe, we can develop the level and description of the magic needed to pull themselves from the void.

If we can find a tribe, we could then introduce myths to that tribe describing a type of "Atlantis" quality to the "Island that drifted into the Void and was lost to the world".


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 11 June 2010, 05:47:44
So, with a little research, the Ordion men might give us a root tribe.  This would allow us to place an Island on the western edge of Aeruillin.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 11 June 2010, 06:00:52
there was also that episode of DS9 where Dax and co found this world that was in their phase of existence for a while and then phased to another phase of reality for most of their existence. Dax fell in love with one of the guys from that world and wanted to stay with them until it was discovered that her presence was destabilising the place's attempt to phase. I don't know ... maybe something like that can help here.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 June 2010, 02:50:02
Stupid question: Why exactly do they need to be dark skinned? Or do you just like the complexion, Alt?

Ordion live in this region, though there's not much development going on there right now, and I didn't see anything mentioned about "magic" in the entry. They live in the northwest of Aeruillin, but ideally we'd need a tribe that is more on the southwestern side. Maybe this could be Ordions who dabble more in magic, or attempt to tame the Void energies to a certain degree. Or at any rate: Are closer to what we need on the island eventually. This should be elaborated better to make the distinction clearer, in order to prepare what kind of people we then have on the island and do their job there.

What kind of magic they do exactly and how they do it, and how the island can be seen further up north etc. needs to be roughly explained next. If there are powerful magicians with strong willpower they could perhaps will the island elsewhere, though if their joint forces aren't given anymore they might get sucked into the Void, so that could be why protectors are needed. Maybe the protectors fear the Void, and others see it as their ultimate salvation - to let loose of reality, so there might be reasons why antagonisms exist.

However, I discourage to go the LOST way with such references to the "heart of the island/the light" or "the darkness", and bend it more in the magical direction, maybe give the island's existence a very clear purpose for the protectors why they need to save it from oblivion, why they need these powers the island possesses.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 15 June 2010, 10:14:33
The only stupid question is the one not asked. :)  They don't have to be dark skinned.  I just like the idea of it if we are putting this in a tropical jungle type setting.  And I don't think there are enough dark skinned tribes.  It makes them that much more exotic, compared to our majority light skinned medieval tribes.


Okay, if the Ordion did inhabit this island, and this island was dragged into the void, if the island was expelled from the void, could the forces that acted on the island bestow magic upon the Voulla?  I like your thinking that the void could still suck it back in.  Maybe the island getting loose from the voisd is such an abberation, that nature wants to balance it out and the Voulla are constantly having to be vigilant against it.


As far as the magic the Voulla have now, I'd like Azhira to think up on this.  I'm no magic expert, but Azhira is.

I want to stay away from "Lost" as much as possible.  No, no herart of the island stuff.

Just a question:  What is outside the void?  Is there an intelligence outside there?


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 15 June 2010, 11:30:09
it is us ... isn't it? Although how much we can ascribe intelligence to us, I'm not sure. :D :evil:


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 June 2010, 03:13:41
What is outside the Void? Well, that's a good question, and the uncertainty of it might cause beliefs on the island to clash.

Just like the question: What happens after you die? Some might say: You get judged, or you are reborn, others might say death is the end of everything and all that counts is what's here. From these varying perspectives you actually determine what your life is, even though you've never actually experienced death on your own. But if you belief that the "other side" means something, your life here gets a whole different meaning. So its the uncertainty what makes things so interesting. And the convictions can become extremely strong.

Uncertainty on what lies beyond is also what determines the struggle on the island I assume. Some on the island might want to see the island get sucked in, others try to prevent it at any cost due to their convictions. Though technically one could just walk into the Void if you're not on the island, if you travel all the way south in Aeruillin. So that poses a bit of a problem to explain this why there's so much ado on the island about this. Maybe the tribes on the island actually don't know anymore how the island was created and the battle for the island has been going on for generations and nobody really knows what it's about. Though yes, that's way too much LOST, even though this approach makes much more sense than the series ever managed to achieve. We need to think more about this.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 17 June 2010, 08:36:14
A new magic system? Oh dear. Let's put that one off for a bit. That will require intensive thinking and plotting...both of which I don't have right now.  :P I am working on mythology of the island. Fortunately, I have never seen much of Lost to be inspired by it, so maybe I can have something fresh.


Title: Re: The Magical Island (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 17 June 2010, 09:12:27
Wasn't thinking a new magic system, really.


What kind of Mythology?  Shouldn't we have the basics ironed out before anyone goes running ahead and either a) wastes their time, or b) forces the rest of us to go in a direction we really don't want?


Title: Re: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 20 June 2010, 16:21:09
Correct me if I am wrong, but can't sentient beings/magic users/Weavers make stuff ou of the Void? So could there be a theory that Chelonae was never part of the "World" but in fact is the result of a spell in the Void gone wrong, or something? Just brainstorming ideas.


Title: Re: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 June 2010, 02:37:02
The Weavers, well of course! Great suggestion, Athviaro! :thumbup:

I think the idea of the Weavers (or Old Weavers) and their extremely powerful kind of magic is pretty much what we'd really need here to make this happen. For all interested, make sure to check out the entries on the Weavers (http://www.santharia.com/magic/weavers.htm) and the City of Delonaire (http://www.santharia.com/places/delonaire.htm) to get the idea what these guys are all about. I need to read these entries myself in detail to know what we could do here, but I think the potential is there. Maybe my brainstormy ideas contradict what is already on the site regarding the Weavers, but let's try.

Ideas like the Weavers and passageways that connect space and time in the various ways aren't entirely uncommon in fantasy worlds, I guess you encounter similar concepts in the Wheel of Time, but also at Feist o Weis and Hickman in the Death Gate cylce, though I'm not that familiar with what their concepts were exactly. Which doesn't hurt, as we'd need to give this our own spin anyway.

But lets say that Weavers could/can create time/space rifts or black holes of sorts, whatever you want to call them, and that one can pass through them. The passages are called the "Web", as it links everything, and as the start and end point need to be in reality, the passages might more be of the realm of "possibility". So it could be that the Web uses the Void properties to make traversing realities possible.

Maybe our island could be the very source of why Weavers exist! Because the island was swallowed by the Void, so possibility took over. Maybe mages who dabbled with reality and possibility were on the island to study these occurences and thus developed the magic of weaving on this very spot.

The island would then be the nexus, as the place between reality and possibility, and the weavers need to keep it all in balance. They could lose the island to reality or possibility/Void, that's why the island warps to other places in time and space in order to escape a reality. Through the nexus they can influence reality and possibility, e.g. the City of Delonaire could be a Void city which is only possible to access through the nexus. So the purpose of the weavers on the island would be to make sure to keep the balance, and thus they need to protect it at any cost. No power shift is allowed on the island, because if someone wants to dominate the island, it might lose its powers in reality or get sucked back into the Void into possibility.

That's a rough concept for now at least what I could make out of the Weavers idea...


Title: Re: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 June 2010, 04:22:26
A few quick thoughts from me, while passing by ;) Warning, no spellcheck, text is too long, too many quotes etc..



Azhira
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Mythology

We can't just pluck a floating island out of nowhere. A semi-mythical background is essential to explaining the nature and purpose of the island. I feel that the island should have an origin somewhere in the far past. I personally like the myth that it appeared from the Ethereal Void somewhere in the far South. The Void is a perfect excuse to create people and things far removed from current Caelereth knowledge. I created the Mists as a way to create strange, twisted things, places and people that wouldn't ordinarily fit anywhere else. The Void is wide open to all sorts of strange myth and it would explain the uniqueness of the island and its inhabitants.

Purpose

I like Alt's generalization. I like the idea that the island is a removed place that only certain people in certain situations ever get to visit. If everyone visited the island, then there would be nothing mythical about it! If everyone visited the Mists, then what mystery would there be? The island opens itself to unique and special individuals and only a small handful of information ever gets out. Those that do visit the island finds a paradise never before seen.

Goodly folk who visit the island find a fascinating place to rest and study. Perhaps evil people may want to take advantage of the island and its people. I don't feel that the island's natives have a choice in the matter of who comes and goes. I think the island itself should be "alive" of sorts.


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I agree with most points here, the island has to be described as something unreal, but everyone believes in it nevertheless.


Altario


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Mythology

I agree with Azhira.  The mythology is almost central to this.  This isn't a place you go visit and hear mythical stories about.  The place is the myth. (see Location)

Purpose

Again, I agree with Azhira who agrees with me.  If it has a purpose, it should be speculated about, but nothing can be concrete because just not enough people have been able to get information on it.  They visit for a time, the Biou friendly and helpful, but always hinting that they should leave.  That "bad things" will happen if they do not.  The bad things, of course, are the Voulla.


Location

I think the island should be seen everywhere water currents can take it.  This is not a competitor to the mists in any way.  It isn't a place that is static.  It floats everywhere, but is non intrusive.  Remember, this is not a place that is found once a year or more, maybe once in a generation.  If it were a real floating island, in order to travel the entire surface of the disk would take years and years.  And not everytime it passed by the north would people have found it.  You could specifically state that no one from Cael'her'oth (sp) has ever encountered it.  I don't want everytribe to have seen it, but enough of a diversity that it adds to the myth.  The fact that is so rarely seen means that it won't be particularly associated with any one place or any one people.  I would like an Antislar story about it, just as I would any other tribe.  I have story ideas already in my head for this.  Can you imagine the wonder of a far northerner whose ship is about to sink after hitting an iceberg, all fearing they are going to die in the icy water, then washing up on some sandy beach with a green jungle and short sleeve weather?  We can state that it is more frequently discovered in southern waters, whether because it is found there more or because southern waters have much more ships than the north, either one is plausible.  Because the Island is magical, weather on it does not have to be related to weather outside of it.

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Agree mostly

Agran
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Location
I think its movements should either be completely random, or, so complicated its nearly impossible to track it (like the island on Lost). Every day it should change. If someone were to record the days and locations of the island, it'd go like this.


Thats the more accurate timeline. I was seeing it as if someone was recording and they were ON the island. I was focusing more on how the location changed so much rather than WHEN it changed.  Perhaps the island 'shifts' out of the reality (or our plane of existence), although I doubt this would be accepted, perhaps, if there are no people on the island (other than its normal inhabitats) it can go through the time? If we were the inhabitats and recording what happened it could go like this.
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M'ruk
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I think there's another question to be answered here. If the island's a paradise, why would people leave?
Alt
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Well, they are encouraged to leave by the Biou, backed up by the Voulla.  Secondly, just because the island is a beautiful paradise, no one else lives there.  It's small.  Most people have people and places to go home to.

If I have understood it right, then the Voulla do not appear too often, the Biou are the one with whom the people deal, whom they mostly encounter. So , as the island is mysterious anyway, there could be a feeling of uneasiness arise, if one stays there too long, an uncertainty, maybe triggered by the rare sight of the Voulla (see my proposal later on.)

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Artimidor
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We need to know first where the island comes from and why and how it exists. And which people live there and why is another matter that has to be based on that general idea.

Now the mythology of the island should of course have the mystery element in it, because if we'd know everything about it, it wouldn't be much of a myth. So I'd say: We should have a mythical outline on its genesis and the basic things regarding the why, where and how (developer's view), and in the entry this main theory could be heavily contested by various witnesses, researchers etc., because they have their own ideas on that myth. That's the main thing about a myth that nobody knows for sure, and if we present different sides of things that could explain the phenomenon or contribute to a side of its explanation, the whole thing gets anchored nicely into the world, from different perspective, while we have the main developer's view and can answer things for us whenever we need it.
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 :speechless:

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So, main mythology on the genesis of the island: Personally I favour that idea Azhira also put forward to connect it with the Ethereal Void. The Void is magical, is a borderline region between dream and reality, and if the island comes from the southern Void it could be pretty much be a tropical setting.
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It could be that a powerful weaver tried e.g. to enter the Void from a very distant location and ripped a piece of it actually out of it. Maybe that piece of land flashes in and out of reality, because it cannot be held at that spot where he tried to move it, so that it actually moves back into the Void and gets out of it again (that could be its day/night cycle).

If the island is Void related we'd also have Dream and reality clash a bit, so it wouldn't be just a regular island floating around, there would be Dream/magic inherent in it, question would be of course how it could be harnessed etc. You can play around with time as well in such a concept, as the Void's concept as a dream region (link between reality and possibility) could exist out of time. So you could leave the island at a different time, in the past or the future. That's just a rough idea, which is however very LOSTish, and therefore not so brilliant.
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Altario

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Arti, the land masses are pushing outward from what I remember of those maps Talia sent me.  Aurellian (sp) is smaller now than it used to be.  What happens when it enters the void?  What if there was an island, normal enough, that got pushed to the edge of the void.  The Voulla, who practiced magic, saw trhe danger and combined their powers to pull their island away/out of the void?

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Art

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An island could drift into the Void, quite literally. It could be that due to the fact that the physical reality doesn't dominate anymore, possibility takes over and the island can be sucked into the realm of possibilities. So it might be that people lived there and that the influence of the Void became stronger and stronger, yup. 

So yeah, there's a chance to explain it from that angle, definitely beats the magician idea, though we'd still need further details.
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I like those last ideas very much, especially because I had them (some) as well, before I read all the stuff! I favour very much the idea of the island near the main continent of Aeruillin, which vanished in the Void and was recued in a way. (weavers who did not want that this special culture got lost?) I prefer though the idea, that NOW it vanishes, slips in realitiy and out randomly, not guided by any weavers (are they still somehow existent? need to reread that entry also).

Summary, how I would like to have it, if it would be my work: (developer's view)

The island once belonged to Aeruillin, but drifted into the void. The weavers/one weaver didn't want to allow this and pushed it back, but
- somethign went wrong, and so it's presence is unstable
- he wanted it like this

Now the island shifts out of reality to another plane of existence (the void is only at the rim of our world, so how should it get there?). It could theoretically appear  in the North at one day, in the South at the next, it could flow with the time, or bring somebody back in time as well (that could trigger interesting things, but if this is too close to LOST, which I do not know, then maybe we should avoid it)

The idea ith other planes of existence is already given with the Island of Mythe, I would prefer this to the idea of something outside the Void-shell (the area where the world/disk melts with the outside , which is called void also, but "Nothingness" as well)

That staying in reality of the island can be as long as desired - but maybe most times a mist is surrounding the island and only rarely another coast can be seen. So, even if it has drfted into that other plane, it does not hurt. Maybe those who want to leave the island find themselves on a foreign (or wellkown) shore, when they wake up? This way, that could even have the impression, that they have stayed in a kind of dream... For some a lot of time could have passed till they get back to their lands, or maybe the time flows quicker on the island, and only a few days are missing, though the visitors had the impression, they stayed for years?

But that is deveoper's view!

What we can know is only what those few who came back over the centuries told us, and that might be mostly normal people, not well educated. They may exaggerate, tell wrong things, coloured by their own upbringing.

That brings me to think, how all those stories should be organised - if it is possible at all, to make normal entries about plants, beasts, even about the people there? All what we have can  only  be fragmentary. Maybe a book of tales about Chelonae would be better. I mean, a normal sailor would not look at the center of a flower and use the right name for it, but just say, it was blue, had three petals only.


To the people there and from whom they could stem.

I had for a long time a double tribe in mind which could fit, if you want to relate it to an existing (or planned) tribe at all. They could be just different people, derived from one of the first tribes who migrated there. But, if you like to link them - they could have common anchestors.

That's from the Aeruillin tribe overview in the Aeruillin forum:

Quote
THE DJI'AAH-KIRRU - Dark Sea of Aegyslam-The Bright Sea-Dunes of Thiva-Thybross


The Djeaah-Kirru is one of the most peculiar tribes in Aeruillin and maybe in the whole of Caelereth. They inhabit the land between the Bright Sea and the Dark Sea of Aegyslam, the Djeaah living at the coastal forest , their houses built in the water, the  Kirru in the dry inner of the region, down till Thybross.

Both tribes  assure, that they are one tribe, though Djeaah and Kirru are not only looking so different, but have a different built society , their territory cant differ more regarding climat and general conditions, the Djeaa are fisher, the Kirru farmer. But what distinguish them most, is their way of life. Where the Kirru have a hard life as farmers in a  desert -like region, the Djeaa live in abundance without having to work hard - or at all. This affects their personality, but this has to  be described in detail later. What they have in common, is their religion, and more, but that we dont know yet. A lot of research is still needed, till we only begin to understand this people.

The Kirru are meant to be a tribe with tall, strongly built people with very black skin. Living in the desert, they are hard working people, full of honour, proud, agile, very aware of their lifes. They could stand for the Voulla.
The soft Djeaah are smaller in stature, gentle, have a lighter skin, ranging from a light coffee to chocolate brown, beatiful bodies everyone. As they don't have to work for their living (fish are easily caught and fruit harvested in abundance), they have an easy life, are friendly, but do not care much for each other, because they never had to. ..  Anchester worship.

Well , as your people are now another tribe anyway, that should be enough. They would fit better than the Ordion.

time is running... I'm here till Wednesday.




Title: Re: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 22 June 2010, 04:29:41
Oooh... very good comments, Talia.  I'll do some digging into those tribes you mentioned.  Thank you. :)  Hopefully when you come back, you can join our little cabal of island devers.


Title: Re: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 23 June 2010, 21:07:43
I could have missed this in my glancing through this discussion, but have you considered what sources of information you're going to have concerning this island? From the looks of it, it's not going to be much.

(This came to mind when Azhira suggested to name the first Magical Mystery Mea.. erh, Island's turtle Ramdu-turtle, 'just for me'. I realised it was highly unlikely for us ever to learn enough about this island to describe even the most obvious of species.)

((On an unrelated note, i am SO writing a Humongous Island-Sized Turtle species now. And i'm calling it "Ramdu, too. ))


Title: Re: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 24 June 2010, 01:31:24
Very true, Mira.. and I have considered it.  They might have to be developed as a Dev entry , then converted to what might have been observed in notes over the years.. purposely sketchy and innacurate.  As well, we could do a Galapagos on existing species, taking plants and animals that would be recognizable but changed because of the island; different colours, size, etc.  Animals that would not be found together on the disk, but somehow manage to survive on the island.  For example, the same person who spots a Rahaz-Ester like creature finds it having just killed a Thunderfoot type creature.

Eh, stuff that can be discussed later on.


Title: Re: Chelonae ~ Island of the Void (Master Dev Thread)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 July 2010, 04:08:44
@Mira and also @Talia concerning the sources of information regarding the island: Myths, lore, whatever you wish to call it. The point would be not to confirm the developer's point of view in an entry. But there could be e.g. a researcher who collected lores from all over the world. Then something happened that caught his/her attention: There are very similar stories about such a place in all kinds of continents/climates etc. Then that person thought: Hmmm... let's see what these tales have in common, so through comparison there might be a semi-conclusion that there's more to that island than just a tale here and there, that it might actually exist somehow.

The researcher then might enter the field of speculation and bring up some theories that help to explain things. One such theory would be close to the developer's view, and a lot of other (from our side already) debunked theories could be presented in the speculative entry on the island. So in other words: It's actually good that there are various proposals/ideas surrounding the island, even if we don't use them as the key theory. We can always use them for a speculative entry and even point out obvious flaws - and the importance of the myth grows only stronger with every problematic theory.

That said, I'd like to point to my last post with the nexus idea, as there wasn't a comment on that one so far. And I think the basic idea isn't half that bad. Would like to have some thoughts on this, as weaverish ideas could be quite fascinating in this respect. If we do it properly we could actually unearth deep secrets of these mysterious mages with this island, even though or especially because they didn't actually create it. Maybe... :)