Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => The Santharian Bestiary => Topic started by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 03 September 2010, 06:15:41



Title: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 03 September 2010, 06:15:41

OK, a verdict was passed. This version contains NO attempt at a Ximax or scientific explanation of the Kalta'hnk.

Well, better late than never. I agreed to do this for Azzy and although I have taken what feels like an inordinately long time over it and no small number of liberties in some realms of theory, I hope it will meet with at least satisfaction in its generalities. Thus I present the fearsome Kalta'hnk, and hope that I never meet one on a dark night.

How stupid! Entry status changed to !, sorry. Often forget that.

Ok, here is the slimline, No-Ximax, Kalta'hnk. New post so you can compare the two; when a verdict is passed, I will delete or modify this post and put the text here in the main at the top. All changes are relative to the original post; marked in RED  for general and GREEN for ones relating to Fildreth. I think that that was accepted.

Edits in BLUE for Azzy and YELLOW for Seth.

Edits in BROWN for Alt.

Bestiary>Monsters, Land>Kalta'hnk

The Kalta'hnk (singular and plural: Kalta'hnk) are vast, humanoid creatures of living ice said to inhabit the eastern Icelands of Northern Sarvonia. They are said to be several times the size of a man with supernatural strength, speed and cunning, coupled with extreme malevolence. Some have even mastered language in the way that humans understand the term.

Appearance

Only one person who was insane enough to research the Kalta'hnk has left records: a Remusian man who did not agree with army life, Fildreth. In his records he left this pithy description of what a Kalta'hnk is, in the form of a direct address to the reader

Imagine a man of solid ice standing before you. Now imagine that he is three times the size, with eyes the size of small shields, burning with icy cruelty. His frosty limbs have the strength of a glacier, and his voice is ancient and doom laden, like the ominous sound of several hundred hebs of ice shifting above your head. Imagine a mouth like a cave, a cavern stretching far back, vicious icicles protruding from floor and roof, all at least a fore long. You have not even begun to approach the true horror of the Kalta'hnk. Their name means approximately "Icy Bite" in the tongue of the Orcs, Khom'chr'om. The bravest men flee when faced with one of these thankfully rare monstrosities; standing at between three and four peds (not two score, as some old legends tell), these creatures are most certainly not to be underestimated.

Special Abilities

Fildreth also wrote in his journals much on the abilities of the Kalta'hnk; their famed strength in particular. Thus we have this short but informative sentence, neatly encapsulating these beasts

Utterly resistant to cold, the Kalta'hnk possess seemingly limitless stamina and vast strength.

The writing meanders a bit after this point, and he begins an earnest study of certain types of bird, but then later on, after supposedly being struck by one of these creatures, he wrote

Imagine being hit square in the ribs by a glacier moving as fast as a gale, and you will have some idea of what being struck by this creature felt like. It brushed me aside with barely a flick and continued.
They have a preternaturally heightened sense of sight, and seem to have the ability to sense heat, which is given off by most creatures, in the same way as they sense light. In this way they can "see" even on the darkest night.

A small excerpt from slightly earlier in his notes completes the picture

The creatures, probably by minute internal shifting, are able to produce a heavy sound, almost certainly  a form of communication. However, I cannot say how complex or involved a tongue theirs is, but according to the Antislar, some can produce the sounds of human speech, as recorded in the "Lay of Bellerius".

Territory

As this researcher has never seen one of these beasts, this following is merely based on the prevalence of legends and folklore concerning these beasts. They seem to inhabit or have inhabited mainly the coastal areas of Northern Sarvonia, predominantly the Icelands coast and the lands of the Antislar.

Their icy bodies seem to - fortunately for civilisation, if these beasts are real - act like normal ice when exposed to heat, limiting them to areas where to snow lies all year round. They are also limited by the fact that they need to draw sustenance from ice as well, and so could not go on for long off the vast ice fields of the regions they inhabit.

Habitat/Behaviour

These creatures are almost impossible to watch in their natural activities. As soon as they sense a potential threat, they will simply lash out with their immense strength. They are for this reason only ever observed from a great distance, and apart from the stories and myths in which they play a role, are most often said to stride across the bleak ice-fields, searching, some say, for their mortal enemies the Kura'thun, their fiery opposites, while others say, more sinisterly, for human flesh.

They seem therefore to inhabit these vast sheet of uncivilised ice, though they are said to need no rest and draw strength from the ice. For this reason they do not need lairs or dens of any kind, though they may stand still in the relative heat of the day.

Diet

This account is also written by Fildreth, although here he claims to have garnered some information from the tribal peoples of the area

I have come to the conclusion that the Kalta'hnk somehow draw nourishment from the very ice itself. This view is also held by most I have talked to; however, the understanding of the mechanism differs. The Antislar believe that this is a function of the force of essence, and that in movement the Ice Biters manipulate the forces of repulsion and attraction by passing this essence back and forth into the ice. There are several other proposed methods. However, over time, all methods are claimed to become less and less efficient and the Ice Giant needs to spend more and more time absorbing energy without moving simply to avoid net loss. When it is no longer capable of even this, it melts to form a new Kalta'hnk. No system is more supported by my observations than the others - all that does not reach the realm of pure personal opinion is that they draw their energy from the ice.

Some more sinister legends say that the Ice Biters need the warmth of human blood to offset the frozen chill of their icy bodies, and old tales record them demanding tributes in the forms of the most beautiful maidens or the foremost young men.

Reproduction

The Kalta'hnk, by all accounts, do not mate. Rather, when one of their number grows old it melts and flows into the ice at its feet; it is then said that the special ice from which they are formed - in that it can possess sentience - moves through the sheets of ice randomly until it comes together in sufficient amounts to create a new Ice Giant. Then, slowly, an icicle starts to grow, from the floor or sometimes - in an ice cavern - from the ceiling.

After a few score years - no more precise number is available, as the legends vary widely in their accounts - a fully formed Kalta'hnk has grown. This is very infrequent, as the Kalta'hnk outlive several generations of men, and only grow tired when they cannot absorb energy from the ice sufficient to keep them going. This act is believed to be completely voluntary, but as a selfish race most Kalta'hnk typically choose to remain as long as possible in the world.

A Kalta'hnk which has been killed, usually by fire or similar, will not do this. If it melts, the water will refreeze and become normal ice, or seep into the ground. Thus killing one of these beast permanently reduces the total - no bad thing, in the eyes of many. This, say the Ice Tribes, explains why they are even more rare in Antislar than the rest of the area, though it is said that this is in fact their ancestral homeland - it is claimed that they were mostly killed by a hero named Bellerius.

Origins

There are three main myths surrounding the origins of the Kalta'hnk. The Ice Tribes of the North believe that they are the pets and creations of Pargis, God of Ice, and that they do or did his bidding. Some say that he mated with the Goddess of Water, Heterniz, and this explains why beings of ice can move.

However, there is another theory prevalent in the north of Santharia, and amongst the elves; that the Kalta'hnk are the children of the original Water Titan, Már'estár, made to aid him in his eternal war against the other Titans, his siblings. Their eternal war with the Kura'thun, Denizens of the Molten Pools, is said to stem from this; as the respective armies of Már'estár and Efér'estár, the Kalta'hnk and the Kura'thun have mutual and mortal enmity at the very cores of their beings.

Those who have no Gods, or who give very little credence to some myths concerning their offspring, believe that the Kalta'hnk were made as mindless automatons during the War of the Chosen, as an elite force in the armies of one of the northern Chosen, and that in his death his malicious spirit passed into his creations, filling them with the hate which lay at the very core of his being. Proponents of this theory point to reported demanding of human sacrifice - in sentient creatures such as these, unattributable to feral instinct or the need for food, and so claimed to spring entirely from unadulterated malevolence.

Myth/Lore

Much lore and many myths surround these monsters. Several Icelands myths involve them as the villains, often extorting live humans as offerings from small settlements. Myriad theories have been proposed to explain how creatures of ice, with no muscles or skeleton, are able to move; most involve magic of some kind. The Ice Tribes even claim that they were animated directly by the gods; a fragment of an ancient text, a relic in a secluded Temple of Pargis, records that "through the union of Ice and Water were these creatures created and as the offspring of such, are not Ice, frozen in position, but neither Water, formless and elusive: rather a middle; moving ice." For Compendium readers unfamiliar with Ice Tribe myth, the God Pargis and Goddess Heterniz are the deities of Ice and Water, and are seen as these two fundamental Icelands truths personified; therefore the text talks of the union of "Ice and Water". Similar trends are displayed in the worship of, for example, Grothar, who is known as Weathergod or Rainlord by some.

The Antislar have a theory in which the Kalta'hnk manipulate the force of essence in order to use the forces of repulsion and attraction to move. The theory postulated by these northerners is that as the Kalta'hnk are "of one substance" with the ice, they can in some unexplained way pass the two forces back and forth between themselves and the vast glaciers. According to the Antislar certain of their mystics and, it seems, the Kalta'hnk can manipulate this mysterious force to a greater or lesser degree, although no Antislar mystic has ever been able to pass it between items, and certain of them, hungry for power, believe that the Kalta'hnk hold the answer; these will pay handsomely for the remains of a Kalta'hnk, believing that imbibing their substance may grant this power.

It is also believed by many warriors in the north that eating some ice from a Kalta'hnk killed in battlecan grant their legendary strength and speed; these people often indicate legends of the greatest warriors, which often involve killing an Ice Giant. What these people perhaps overlook is that only the greatest of warriors could kill a Kalta'hnk in the first place, and there is the slight possibility that they have their causal chain back to front. Unfortunately for the Vertan, whose caves are supposed to contain Kalta'hnk in their infancy, this stipulation has prevented them from becoming the mightiest tribe of the north.

Researchers

Almost no-one has been foolish enough carry out field research on the Kalta'hnk. This information has been pieced together - a legend here, an oral tradition there, side notes by researchers of other, less dangerous, topics. Pictures of these beasts have been built up slowly, and very little fieldwork has been done. The vast majority of research has been in the form of writing down hitherto exclusively oral tales.

Most people mad enough to research such a fearsome monster have failed to leave any record; the only alleged eyewitness accounts are the records of a Remusian by the name of Fildreth. His is a curious story: he left the army aged twenty-one, and became a rare breed - an Ice Tribe scholar. He was, however, fixated with the idea of a Kalta'hnk.

At the age of twenty-six, Fildreth left his home in Remusiat, and was never heard of again until he turned up, ten years later, in a small village not five strals distant. He was babbling incoherently, and clearly mad. One resident said that "it was a wonder th'evil spirits din't et us all oop". However, in his pack were discovered five small notebooks, predominated by his observations of the Kalta'hnk. Unfortunately, he died of serious injuries, which he claimed were from his being struck by a Kalta'hnk. The words of a madman, however, cannot be offered as sufficient proof of these beasts' existence.

Usages

The Vertan gather unformed Kalta'hnk - in icicle form - to make their harpoons and tools. They believe that the ice from this source is stronger and more durable than common frozen water, and they may well be right. No uses are known for the living Kalta'hnk - no-one would be crazy enough to try to ride one, and they produce nothing in the way of wool or milk.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 04 September 2010, 05:24:15
Quick suggestion - this creature would likely be only found in very cold and icy environments such as ice caves and icebergs. A possible Icebiter is mentioned in my Mists entry:

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One ancient tale from an Erpheronian pirate ship, which was swept too far north during a storm, says that these creatures are made of solid ice and are the size of ogres. They look like walking icicles with massive arms and legs. There has been no real research on such a beast as most sailors avoid the Ice Sea.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 04 September 2010, 06:17:34
I though I put that in...

Yes I did.

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Their icy bodies seem to - fortunately for civilisation, if these beasts are real - act like normal ice when exposed to heat, limiting them to areas where to snow lies all year round. They are also limited by the fact that they need to draw sustenance from ice as well, and so could not go on for long off the vast ice fields of the regions they inhabit.

Unless I misunderstood you?

Thanks for the prompt response, hope it's generally up to scratch.

Athviaro


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 06 September 2010, 07:58:10
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The Kalta'hnk (singular and plural: Kalta'hnk) are a race of vast, humanoid creatures of living ice said to inhabit the eastern Icelands and other uncivilised areas of Northern Sarvonia. They are several times the size of a man with supernatural strength, speed and cunning, coupled with extreme malevolence. Some have even mastered language in the way that humans understand the term.

I am not sure about calling them a "race". I would think the Icebiters are rare and mythical, right? Would many know them as a race? Perhaps it's better to say they are simply living creatures of ice said to inhabit the Icelands of Northern Sarvonia (other uncivilized areas can be taken to mean non-iceland regions, which would be inaccurate).

You also speak as if their strength, cunning and speed is fact rather than legend. I think add something about certain myths describe the Icebiters as having extraordinary strength etc rather than state as fact. As far as language goes, has someone talked to them? Maybe say that some legends or research have indicated that the Icebiters have a primitive speech (or to humans, it sounds primitive. Who knows? Maybe Icebiter language is quite complex?)

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Their name means approximately "Bite-[from-which- one]-dies" in the tongue of the Orcs, Khom'chr'om, and it is truly apt.Is this OK as a translation?

Wasn't their name supposed to mean "Icebiters"? Remember, "Kalta" can be translated to mean Ice, frost, cold etc.



Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 06 September 2010, 20:13:56
Thanks Azzy!

"Race" removed. Hope it still flows!

The "other areas" was because I realised I didn't know where you wanted it to be. I've removed that, but if there is anywhere the "Icelands" don't cover that they want to be, I'm only too happy to oblige.

About the strength etc. : is the "said to be" enough to make it more mythical?

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Wasn't their name supposed to mean "Icebiters"? Remember, "Kalta" can be translated to mean Ice, frost, cold etc.

Sorry, I didn't realise that. I thought it meant "bite" and "die". Have changed it to "Icy Bite" - let me know if that's still wrong. I thought "Icebiter" was a human term, and that it shouldn't be just a translation.

Thanks again

Athviaro


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 07 September 2010, 07:22:08
Appearance

Imagine a man of solid ice standing before you. Now imagine that he is three times the size, with eyes the size of small shields, burning with icy cruelty. His frosty limbs have the strength of a glacier, and his voice is ancient and doom laden, like the ominous sound of several hundred hebs of ice shifting above your head. Imagine a mouth like a cave, a cavern stretching far back, vicious icicles protruding from floor and roof, all at least a fore long. You have not even begun to approach the true horror of the Kalta'hnk. Their name means approximately "Icy Bite" in the tongue of the Orcs, Khom'chr'om. The bravest men are reported to flee when faced with one of these thankfully rare monstrosities. Standing at five or six peds (not two score, as some old legends tell), these creatures are most certainly not to be underestimated.

The Appearance may need some tweaking. It doesn't seem to be consistent with the rest of the entry. The point of view seems off, but I like the descriptiveness. Maybe say that according to the stories and legends, the Icebiter is this and that etc. Or, you could write from the perspective of someone who actually claimed to have seen an Icebiter and describe it that way. Also, five to six peds may be too large. I would say three to three and half peds. It could be that the older an Icebiter gets, the larger he grows.

Special Abilities

Utterly resistant to cold, the Kalta'hnk possess seemingly limitless stamina and vast strength. Ximaxian mages claim that their Cár'állía have a dominance of water and earth ounía - being of ice, which is water under the influence of earth - and that this accounts for their incredible power - the force of water held in check by the stability of earth.

The few Ximaxian scholars who have dared investigate - the Ice Tribes have a hatred of mages manifesting itself in executions - have come to the conclusion that movement is achieved by a primitive and instinctual form of magic, using ounía of water from the ice to manipulate the Water Property of Movement.

Introducing Ximaxian points of view into a Northern Sarvonia entry can be tricky. Ximaxians live in South Sarvonia and few know of, or care to know, the North (in my opinion...) I think it may work better to have a specific Ximaxian scholar make these claims rather than a nameless few. I already use two Ximaxian magi as researchers for the North - myself (Azhira) and Kha'mal, a Volkek-Oshra demonologist (studies the Mists). In keeping with consistent researchers, I would use Kha'mal, even though he doesn't really focus on the Ice Tribes lore, but he is Ximaxian.

One researcher, a Remusian by the name of Fildreth, who barely escaped with his life after meeting one of these creatures (though as he went mad and died soon after his testimony cannot be regarded as conclusive evidence of their existence) wrote in his journal "Imagine being hit square in the ribs by a glacier moving as fast as a gale, and you will have some idea of what being struck by this creature felt like. It brushed me aside with barely a flick and continued". However, he did manage to bring back some more detailed observations than the legends upon which we mainly rely. For example, it was he who estimated the creatures at about five or six peds, not ten or a dozen or even two score.

They also have a preternaturally heightened sense of sight, theorised to be the reaction of their water-dominated Cár'állía to the fiery property of light. They also seem to have the ability to sense heat, which is given off by most creatures, in the same way as they sense light. In this way they can "see" even on the darkest night.

The creatures, supposedly by minute internal shifting, are said to be able to produce a heavy sound, theorised to be a form of communication. Since this is only a theory, there is no knowledge of how complex and involved a tongue theirs is. However, according to the Antislar, some can produce the sounds of human speech, as recorded in the "Tale of Bellerius".
Territory

As this researcher has never seen one of these beasts, this following is merely based on the prevalence of legends and folklore concerning these beasts. They seem to inhabit or have inhabited mainly the coastal areas of Northern Sarvonia, and predominantly around the Eastern Icelands coast and the isle of the Antislar.

Their icy bodies seem to - fortunately for civilisation, if these beasts are real - act like normal ice when exposed to heat, limiting them to areas where to snow lies all year round. They are also limited by the fact that they need to draw sustenance from ice as well, and so could not go on for long off the vast ice fields of the regions they inhabit.

Even better! If this Fildreth claims to have seen an Icebiter, perhaps write the entire Special Abilities sections from his point of view. That way, it becomes only one account and not taken as truth by many.

Habitat/Behaviour

These creatures are almost impossible to watch in their natural activities. As soon as they sense a potential threat, they will simply lash out with their immense strength. They are for this reason only ever observed from a great distance, and apart from the stories and myths in which they play a role, are most often said to stride across the bleak ice-fields, searching, some say, for their mortal enemies the Kura'thun, while others say, more sinisterly, for human flesh.

You may wish to explain what a Kura'thun is, for the first time reader.

They seem therefore to inhabit these vast sheet of uncivilised ice, though they are said to need no rest and draw strength from the ice. For this reason they do not need lairs or dens of any kind, though they may stand still in the relative heat of the day.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 08 September 2010, 01:55:03
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Utterly resistant to cold, the Kalta'hnk possess seemingly limitless stamina and vast strength. Ximaxian mages claim that their Cár'állía have a dominance of water and earth ounía - being of ice, which is water under the influence of earth - and that this accounts for their incredible power - the force of water held in check by the stability of earth.

The properties you describe here are earthen, not water.  Thus your explanation of as "the force of water held in check by the stability of earth" doesn't really apply.

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The few Ximaxian scholars who have dared investigate - the Ice Tribes have a hatred of mages manifesting itself in executions - have come to the conclusion that movement is achieved by a primitive and instinctual form of magic, using ounía of water from the ice to manipulate the Water Property of Movement. 

I don't really understand how this works.  You seem to be saying that these things are giant blocks of ice that are given movement by magic.  However, inanimate objects can't use magic as magic is brought about by force of will.  Thus your Ximaxian explanation here doesn't work.

I was going to go through and read through the rest of the Ximaxian parts as well, but there's a lot of very weird magic that I don't think will work.  I don't have the time to sift through and pick it all out, but before this gets approved you need to get a magic expert to check through this.  Honestly, it would probably be best if you just removed the "Ximaxian interpretation" of these beasts and just used folk-lore to describe their supposed magic.   


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 08 September 2010, 02:25:05
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I don't really understand how this works.  You seem to be saying that these things are giant blocks of ice that are given movement by magic.  However, inanimate objects can't use magic as magic is brought about by force of will.  Thus your Ximaxian explanation here doesn't work.

I see what you mean, but these aren't giant blocks of ice oved by magic. They are sentient creatures, which are made of ice. They have the inborn ability to perform this very limited form of magic - at least that's how I see it.

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The properties you describe here are earthen, not water.  Thus your explanation of as "the force of water held in check by the stability of earth" doesn't really apply.

Are they? Sorry, I don't know the official properties. The "limitless stamina" is not an elemental property - it is explained further down as being due to the fact that they draw energy from ice, in a way. Neither is the "resistant to cold" - they're made of ice, so it wouldn't make sense for them to get frostbite, would it? The "strength" is due to the power of water - is water not powerful? The geyser, the waterfall, the tsunami? The dripping stalactite that wears a path through granite? The "stability of earth" is to neutralise the chaotic tendencies of water - in terms of ice, to stop it from moving this way and that, in terms of the Kalta'hnk, to give them control over their movements.

I know I definitely need a magic expert to check it through, and I wouldn't try to avoid that. I want them to fit as well as humanly possible.

@Azhira:

Fildreth: I wanted to use him just as that little account, because I wanted a researcher whose sanity was in question and who died soon after in order to leave the existence of these beasts in doubt, but didn't want to violate the "use existing researchers" rule too much. If it's OK, I will put the Appearance in his mouth, and maybe a large portion or all of the special abilities.

The size is of course subject to change, but I didn't want them to be too small. The impression I formed from Alt's tale was that they were more than just 3 peds, but having them grow with age is a good idea. They could start off a normal height (ie, human sized) and grow to about 4-5 peds.

Kha'mal could of course be the best researcher, and I will credit him for much of the Ximaxian view (though is he not a fire mage (Volkek-Oshra?) and so a little odd? Or does it not matter).

An explanation of a Kura'thun can of course be done (although I give some hints later on).

I will get to those when I can.

Athviaro

EDIT: @Alt: True, but most of what we know about the Ice Biters is myth. I didn't think they would be said to be so big if they were only 3 peds, but maybe I'm just not getting my head around the sizes.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 08 September 2010, 05:10:43
My tale was  myth.  The hero was batted into the air where he flew for three days before hitting the ground again, too. :)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 08 September 2010, 08:39:20
I may have to agree with Drasil. The Ximaxian perspective may get a bit complicated. And, we all know there is nothing simple about the Ximaxian perspective... :P I would be in favor of dropping that part, unless you can find a way to explain it without going into too much detail so much that it will overshadow the rest of the mythical-ness of the entry.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 09 September 2010, 05:18:58
Ok, here is the slimline, No-Ximax, Kalta'hnk. New post so you can compare the two; when a verdict is passed, I will delete or modify this post and put the text here in the main at the top. All changes are relative to the current first post; marked in RED  for general and GREEN for ones relating to Fildreth.

Just to note: Anyone is welcome to comment on anything they like, but I would also like Azhira's opinion on whether this version is better than the Ximax version. As I said, all comments are always welcome and will be reflected in this post.

Edits in BLUE for Azzy and YELLOW for Seth.

THIS HAS BEEN MOVED TO THE FIRST POST (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14595.msg185131.html#msg185131) AS AZHIRA DECIDED TO GO WITH THIS VERSION.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 10 September 2010, 11:39:36
Three peds is approximately 9 feet tall. That's fairly tall for a creature. Four peds is about 12 feet tall which may be about the tallest the Icebiters get in my opinion. I don't want them to be so immense that they dwarf everything around them. You could perhaps say that there are rumors of even larger, ancient Icebiters of 6 peds tall, but these live in deep caves long undisturbed.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 11 September 2010, 16:08:47
Blaugh, fixed, I forgot completely about posting after edits (biiiig maths prep last night).

Anyway, it's in blue (between three and four peds).


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: seth ghibta on 13 September 2010, 00:39:10
hi Athviaro!
not sure why it's taken me so long to get round to reading this through. certainly wish i had earlier now, as it's really interesting, and prompted a lot of research into the fundamentals of Santh mythology that i really should have done earlier. ;)
i've not much to say really, as this is far from my area of expertise, and i couldn't venture an opinion on the Ximax stuff by a long way, i'm afraid. my comments are a bit more general and typically nosey. basically, i found it fascinating to read, and i'm immensely jealous of your skill at conciseness, but i wondered about, seeing as this is a pseudo-mythological creature, maybe a bit more in the myth'lore and origin sections?
these suggestions  are just suggestions, though, so don't feel you have to add stuff you don't want to.

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Origins

There are three main myths surrounding the origins of the Kalta'hnk. The Ice Tribes of the North believe that they are the pets and creations of Pargis, God of Ice, and that they do or did his bidding. Some say that he mated with the Goddess of Water, Heterniz, and this explains why beings of ice can move.

However, there is another theory prevalent in the north of Santharia, and amongst the elves; that the Kalta'hnk are the children of the original Water Titan (can we have the name here? for clarity's sake?), made to aid him in his eternal war against the other Titans, his siblings. Their eternal war with the Kura'thun, Denizens of the Molten Pools, is said to stem from this; as the respective armies of Már'estár and Efér'estár, the Kalta'hnk and the Kura'thun have mutual and mortal enmity at the very cores of their beings. Oh! that was a thing: the idea of the Kur'thun fascinates me. are we going to see an entry on them? :grin:

Those who have no Gods, or who give very little credence to some myths concerning their offspring, believe that the Kalta'hnk were made as mindless automatons during the War of the Chosen, as an elite force in the armies of one of the northern Chosen, and that in his death his malicious spirit passed into his creations, filling them with the hate which lay at the very core of his being. just a note - you could, if you wanted, link this very neatly to stories where they're the villains. if they're basically evil, then of course they've a reason to demand sacrifices of live people, type thing.

Myth/Lore

Much lore and many myths surround these monsters. Several Icelands myths involve them as the villains, often extorting live humans as offerings from small settlements. Myriad theories have been proposed to explain how creatures of ice, with no muscles or skeleton, are able to move; most involve magic of some kind. here you could link this back to your origin myth with Pargis and the goddess of water? really i guess what i'm after is a bit more detail to your references to myth, perhaps outline the plot of one or two important ones. it doesn't have to be long or poetic, just enough that you get a feeling for how much story has built up around what are undoubtedly extremely charismatic and naturally mythic kind of creatures.

The Antislar have a theory in which the Kalta'hnk manipulate the forces of Kor and Aya in order to use the forces of repulsion and attraction to move. The theory postulated by these northerners is that as the Kalta'hnk are "of one substance" with the ice, they can in some unexplained way pass the two forces back and forth between themselves and the vast glaciers. Kor repels Kor and Aya repels Aya and the two attract each other, and according to the Antislar certain of their mystics and, it seems, the Kalta'hnk can manipulate this to a greater or lesser degree. However, no Antislar mystic has ever been able to pass Kor and Aya between items, and certain of them, hungry for power, believe that the Kalta'hnk hold the answer; these will pay handsomely for the remains of a Kalta'hnk, believing that imbibing their substance may grant this power. this is excellent - the kind of detail i mean. if you could mention a popular story or myth that gets told, to tie these more abstract ideas to a more concrete oral tradition (wait, "concretee oral tradition?" contradiction in terms, i know), then that'd be brilliant.

It is also believed by many warriors in the north that eating some ice from a Kalta'hnk can grant their legendary strength and speed; these people often indicate legends of the greatest warriors, which often involve killing an Ice Giant. What these people perhaps overlook is that only the greatest of warriors could kill a Kalta'hnk in the first place, and there is the slight possibility that they have their causal chain back to front.i think you mentioned earlier a lay of Belisarius (sp? :P) that i'd love to hear a little more about here. you mention a lot of what sound like archetypal hero vs. monster type myths, but we don't get enough details to form a clearer picture. i'm not saying you have to, but it'd be interesting to see a specific myth referred to. you don't have to write it, of course. though that isn't to say that someone won't, at some point. ;)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 13 September 2010, 01:55:23
Wow, thanks Seth!

Actually, I was thinking about maybe bringing in a twin entry on the Kura'thun, but I need to know, for example, where the Molten Pools are! Just an idea at the moment, though.

Just wondering, is the name needed at the first point. I think it might break the flow and I never knew it until I did research on this entry (someone who knows may back me up - most people refer to them just as the Titans, do they, or would humans not schooled in Styrash still use the names?)

I know, as a general point, that I could do a lot more myth, and the idea of linking that to the human sacrifice is a good one :thumbup:

The "Lay of Bellerius" is already written (at least in part. Alt wrote the defining section, where Bellerius kills the Kalta'hnk, for his Fire Blade (http://www.santharia.com/artifacts/antislar_fire_blade.htm#Origin/History) entry) I assumed that such a mighty hero didn't just fade away, and Lay sounds better than "the myth in which Bellerius saves..." or something equally clumsy. It involves them speaking, which is why I put it in.

I will reiterate the point about Pargis &c in the Myth part ("they were granted the power of movement as a result of the union of Pargis and Heterniz")

I have never done a Library entry, but I'm happy to try a bit of the Lay, if Alt doesn't mind, though it may be a while in production.

Again, thank you. Glad to be doing something.

Athviaro :thumbup:


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 13 September 2010, 06:44:22
Hmm...idea...Azzy, I was just reminded of your "pet" area (I was catching up on the RP side, long story short began reading a CD with a magic thingy, linked to Rayne's Indepenent Scholar's View of Enchantments, had been reading Malexia's CD, read part about taints with extreme interest and bingo. Not very short, really.)

Anyway, how warm are areas of the Mists? I see that there are icy areas that can freeze flesh off bone, as well as oddly temperate areas, but icy areas often (well, sometimes) have volcanos - do the Mists? Because then I think a twin-myth for the Kalta'hnk and Kura'thun could be in the offing - would the Mists, over thousands of years, be able to summon these beings from ice and magma? Perhaps they were sculpted by twisted Orcen tribes and worshipped, but then were animated and descended on their worshippers in an orgy of slaughter, then when all of the orcs were gone roamed until they met the Kura'thun. A vast conflict (upwards of 500 each side?) raged over an Orcen tribe, and then added to their natural hatred as beings of ice and fire. Perhaps then a mere 200 survivors? Numbers subject to change, of course.

But maybe a vast number (say, 1000?) could have been created, but then no more? And of course this nice handy hugely destructive battle to wipe them all out...plus a reason for both to exist (I only have one double-explanation at the moment)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 13 September 2010, 06:53:05
The Mists can contain pretty much whatever you want them to contain. The entire region is magically tainted, warped, twisted and highly volatile where the laws of known Caelereth physics do not apply. Within reason of course...(i.e. if I like your concept or not... ;)

The Mists do not have volcanoes, however they do have chasms and pits of various substances such as ice, ooze pools, and yes perhaps magma since the earth crust below is also tainted. The Mists themselves do not summon things, but things already existing can be made to animate or behave abnormally (such as statues).

Your idea would be a fine myth, although the actual occurrence of such a thing happening would likely be non-existent. However, that is what myths are about isn't it?


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 13 September 2010, 06:56:52
Ok...ideas bubbling...just, I was thinking that you said permenant effects could be seen on a mind after a few days? Say, a week? And then, millenia would surely see biig changes?

But anyway...the Mists are little understood, it could well be a myth.

I understand that you do not want marauding invincible animated mountains careering down into Ximax or New Santhala!


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 13 September 2010, 07:08:13
So what is going on here? I find the whole two drafts for comparison thing quite confusing and would rather you reconcile these differences and present one entry we can actually work with.

I would simply suggest that an Ximaxian or even rational, concrete explanation of these creatures be abandoned. It is not neccesary to be completely unambiguous with something which is regarded as mythical. When things like this crop up I again point to the Cairnhoom (http://santharia.com/bestiary/cairnhoom.htm) as an example of the sort of things I am looking for when a magical sentient creature is being passed off as a beast.

Though I would say that, I did write it  :grin:


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 13 September 2010, 14:46:53
Ok, sorry, it is confusing.

In a simpler format, you said that I should probably cut the Ximax view. Azzy then said that she thought she agreed, but as that entailed a rather large wholesale deletion, I posted this second version so I could easily revert to the first one if needed.

One or the other will be put in the top as the main entry as soon as Azzy returns a verdict on the deletion of Ximax. The Ximax-free is the entry, but the one with Ximax is a sort of "sleeper"

It sounds more complicated than it did when I decided to do it!

Sorry,

Athviaro


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: seth ghibta on 13 September 2010, 19:32:05
yay! there will be Kura'thun! or possibly, anyway. glad to hear it.

as for the putting the name in earlier, that's of course up to you, and i understand what you mean. don't break up the flow if you think it works, it was just an idle suggestion. ;)

and as for the Lay of Bellerius - my bad. i tried to search on site for it but i think i got Bellerius mixed with Belisarius, hence a lack of results. referencing this is good, and i'd encourage you to make as much of it as possible. :) and if you tackle writing more of it, then you have my instant respect. i find lyrical and ballad forms nigh impossible. :grin:

oh! and i forgot to aura for the general coolness of finally giving us the ice giants we've been needing for a while. :grin:
so i will.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 14 September 2010, 02:27:53
My verdict is that this entry should be Ximax-free. As much as I like Twen's suggested Ximaxian interpretation (in the proposal thread), I don't think it will fit here without substantial research and knowledge of the magic principles, some of which are largely unknown anyhow. The last thing we need is for this entry to be delayed while the secondary magic stuff is debated in committee.  ;)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 14 September 2010, 02:36:16
Ok. Entry mkii will be put into the main post during prep tonight :P

I'm glad. I managed to confuse myself by the end of the Ximax view, and that is either a sign that you're losing your mind or just not getting enough sleep (probably the latter)

Athviaro


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 24 September 2010, 22:07:45
Just flagging up that this has been done now - any further comments? Good/bad bits? Just don't want to lose this.

Ok. Entry mkii will be put into the main post during prep tonight :P

I'm glad. I managed to confuse myself by the end of the Ximax view, and that is either a sign that you're losing your mind or just not getting enough sleep (probably the latter)

Athviaro

Athviaro (still)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 31 October 2010, 17:12:40
Are the changes done here now satisfying? I'd need some input on this one!


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 31 October 2010, 17:47:36
That's for Azzy to decide, I think. Any further quibbles, Azzy? I may not be able to get them fixed by the update, I'm warning you.

Athvi


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 31 October 2010, 23:25:14
My only concern here is to make clear that these creatures are largely considered mythical to many Northern tribes, the Antislar being the exception in that to them, the ice biters are real. Additionally, ice biters are very rarely encountered and inhabit the deepest of ice caves and mountains. In other words, only a select few know where these can be located.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 01 November 2010, 01:18:48
I thought all of the northern tribes believed in the Kalta'hnk?


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 01 November 2010, 21:41:43
Ath, I'll comment more on this soon. There are a few things I need cleared up.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 29 December 2010, 01:13:40
Not to be pushy, but is this looking generally OK - especially from the point of view of the myth I put up yesterday? Just want to know so I can get the myth itself looking good.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 29 December 2010, 11:23:46
I'll do a hard look at this.  I'm reading the Antislar bits, right now, and not sure yet how I'm reacting to it.  I'm not sure if you have the correct assumptions on Koraya.  I'll post a detailed report when I'm done. :)

One thing I've noticed, however, is that you seem to be interested in the Kura'thun.  I claimed them a while ago and have been working on them offline.   I'd like to be able to continue to create them.  I have definite plans for these creatures, which is why I chose them for the Bellerius myth and the keepers of Doom Steel.  It is quite important to me, as they will be important to the Isthmus of Doom and the Antislar.  They were my idea in response to Azhira's Ice Giants, and I had no intention of farming them out.

Sorry for the inconvenience this causes.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 29 December 2010, 13:55:36
Bestiary>Monsters, Land>Kalta'hnk

The Kalta'hnk (singular and plural: Kalta'hnk) are vast, humanoid creatures of living ice said to inhabit the eastern Icelands of Northern Sarvonia. They are said to be several times the size of a man with supernatural strength, speed and cunning, coupled with extreme malevolence. Some have even mastered language in the way that humans understand the term.

Appearance

Only one person who was insane enough to research the Kalta'hnk has left records: a Remusian man who did not agree with army life, Fildreth. In his records he left this pithy description of what a Kalta'hnk is, in the form of a direct address to the reader

Imagine a man of solid ice standing before you. Now imagine that he is three times the size, with eyes the size of small shields, burning with icy cruelty. His frosty limbs have the strength of a glacier, and his voice is ancient and doom laden, like the ominous sound of several hundred hebs of ice shifting above your head. Imagine a mouth like a cave, a cavern stretching far back, vicious icicles protruding from floor and roof, all at least a fore long. You have not even begun to approach the true horror of the Kalta'hnk. Their name means approximately "Icy Bite" in the tongue of the Orcs, Khom'chr'om. The bravest men flee when faced with one of these thankfully rare monstrosities; standing at between three and four peds (not two score, as some old legends tell), these creatures are most certainly not to be underestimated.

Special Abilities

Fildreth also wrote in his journals much on the abilities of the Kalta'hnk; their famed strength in particular. Thus we have this short but informative sentence, neatly encapsulating these beasts


Utterly resistant to cold, the Kalta'hnk possess seemingly limitless stamina and vast strength.

The writing meanders a bit after this point, and he begins an earnest study of certain types of bird, but then later on, after supposedly being struck by one of these creatures, he wrote


Imagine being hit square in the ribs by a glacier moving as fast as a gale, and you will have some idea of what being struck by this creature felt like. It brushed me aside with barely a flick and continued.
They have a preternaturally heightened sense of sight, and seem to have the ability to sense heat, which is given off by most creatures, in the same way as they sense light. In this way they can "see" even on the darkest night.

A small excerpt from slightly earlier in his notes completes the picture


The creatures, probably by minute internal shifting, are able to produce a heavy sound, almost certainly  a form of communication. However, I cannot say how complex or involved a tongue theirs is, but according to the Antislar, some can produce the sounds of human speech, as recorded in the "Lay of Bellerius".

Territory

As this researcher has never seen one of these beasts, this following is merely based on the prevalence of legends and folklore concerning these beasts. They seem to inhabit or have inhabited mainly the coastal areas of Northern Sarvonia, and predominantly around the Eastern Icelands coast and the isle of the Antislar.   The Isle of the Antislar?  Which Isle is this?
Their icy bodies seem to - fortunately for civilisation, if these beasts are real - act like normal ice when exposed to heat, limiting them to areas where to snow lies all year round. They are also limited by the fact that they need to draw sustenance from ice as well, and so could not go on for long off the vast ice fields of the regions they inhabit.

Habitat/Behaviour

These creatures are almost impossible to watch in their natural activities. As soon as they sense a potential threat, they will simply lash out with their immense strength. They are for this reason only ever observed from a great distance, and apart from the stories and myths in which they play a role, are most often said to stride across the bleak ice-fields, searching, some say, for their mortal enemies the Kura'thun, their fiery opposites, while others say, more sinisterly, for human flesh.

They seem therefore to inhabit these vast sheet of uncivilised ice, though they are said to need no rest and draw strength from the ice. For this reason they do not need lairs or dens of any kind, though they may stand still in the relative heat of the day.

Diet

This account is also written by Fildreth, although here he claims to have garnered some information from the tribal peoples of the area


I have come to the conclusion that the Kalta'hnk somehow draw nourishment from the very ice itself. This view is also held by most I have talked to; however, the understanding of the mechanism differs. The Antislar believe that this is a function of the force of Koraya, and that in movement the Ice Biters manipulate the forces of repulsion and attraction by passing Kor or Aya back and forth into the ice. Kor and Aya cannot be passed back and forth between objects.  As well, the essenses have not been named and I don't think they will be Kor and Aya.  Right now it is simply know as "essense" which embodies the dual properties needed for attraction and repulsion.  I am wanting to keep the duality of this as it is in keeping with the duality they see in everything. There are several other proposed methods1. However, over time, all methods are claimed to become less and less efficient and the Ice Giant needs to spend more and more time absorbing energy without moving simply to avoid net loss. When it is no longer capable of even this, it melts to form a new Kalta'hnk. No system is more supported by my observations than the others - all that does not reach the realm of pure personal opinion is that they draw their energy from the ice. However, it is my belief that each is inhabited by the spirit of a Dark Stryke Shark, and that they are constantly moved to reach the sea; this is what grants ice movement.  Why would a Remusian believe that the spirit of a Dark Stryke Shark inhibits these giants?  The DSS is not a inherently spiritual creeature to the Remusians.  As a people, they are too practical to see spirits in every plant and animal.  They are content with the Ice Tribe pantheon, and even then, many have turned to the monatheism of Kor'och. The Antislar, however, do have spirits that exert control over many things.  In this sense, they are more like the Japanese which have a preponderance of spirits in nature.  Perhaps a Spirit of a DSS imbued an early ice giant with the spirit of the DSS which has continued through the generations of ice giants.?  May need to adjust your creation theory if you go this route.

Some more sinister legends say that the Ice Biters need the warmth of human blood to offset the frozen chill of their icy bodies, and old tales record them demanding tributes in the forms of the most beautiful maidens or the foremost young men.

Reproduction

The Kalta'hnk, by all accounts, do not mate. Rather, when one of their number grows old it melts and flows into the ice at its feet; it is then said that the special ice from which they are formed - in that it can possess sentience - moves through the sheets of ice randomly until it comes together in sufficient amounts to create a new Ice Giant. Then, slowly, an icicle starts to grow, from the floor or sometimes - in an ice cavern - from the ceiling.

After a few score years - no more precise number is available, as the legends vary widely in their accounts - a fully formed Kalta'hnk has grown. This is very infrequent, as the Kalta'hnk outlive several generations of men, and only grow tired when they cannot absorb energy from the ice sufficient to keep them going. This act is believed to be completely voluntary, but as a selfish race most Kalta'hnk typically choose to remain as long as possible in the world.

A Kalta'hnk which has been killed, usually by fire or similar, will not do this. If it melts, the water will refreeze and become normal ice, or seep into the ground. Thus killing one of these beast permanently reduces the total - no bad thing, in the eyes of many. This, say the Ice Tribes,  explains why they are even more rare in Antislar than the rest of the area, though it is said that this is in fact their ancestral homeland - it is claimed that they were mostly killed by a hero named Bellerius.

Origins

There are three main myths surrounding the origins of the Kalta'hnk. The Ice Tribes of the North believe that they are the pets and creations of Pargis, God of Ice, and that they do or did his bidding. Some say that he mated with the Goddess of Water, Heterniz, and this explains why beings of ice can move.  This is a much better explanation to the Ice giants than the DSS explanation above.  This is very much inline with Remusian beliefs.

However, there is another theory prevalent in the north of Santharia, and amongst the elves; that the Kalta'hnk are the children of the original Water Titan, Már'estár, made to aid him in his eternal war against the other Titans, his siblings. Their eternal war with the Kura'thun, Denizens of the Molten Pools, is said to stem from this; as the respective armies of Már'estár and Efér'estár, the Kalta'hnk and the Kura'thun have mutual and mortal enmity at the very cores of their beings.

Those who have no Gods, or who give very little credence to some myths concerning their offspring, believe that the Kalta'hnk were made as mindless automatons during the War of the Chosen, as an elite force in the armies of one of the northern Chosen, and that in his death his malicious spirit passed into his creations, filling them with the hate which lay at the very core of his being. Proponents of this theory point to reported demanding of human sacrifice - in sentient creatures such as these, unattributable to feral instinct or the need for food, and so claimed to spring entirely from unadulterated malevolence.

Myth/Lore

Much lore and many myths surround these monsters. Several Icelands myths involve them as the villains, often extorting live humans as offerings from small settlements. Myriad theories have been proposed to explain how creatures of ice, with no muscles or skeleton, are able to move; most involve magic of some kind. The Ice Tribes even claim that they were animated directly by the gods; a fragment of an ancient text, a relic in a secluded Temple of Pargis, records that "through the union of Ice and Water were these creatures created and as the offspring of such, are not Ice, frozen in position, but neither Water, formless and elusive: rather a middle; moving ice." For Compendium readers unfamiliar with Ice Tribe myth, the God Pargis and Goddess Heterniz are the deities of Ice and Water, and are seen as these two fundamental Icelands truths personified; therefore the text talks of the union of "Ice and Water". Similar trends are displayed in the worship of, for example, Grothar, who is known as Weathergod or Rainlord by some.

The Antislar have a theory in which the Kalta'hnk manipulate the forces of Kor and Aya in order to use the forces of repulsion and attraction to move. The theory postulated by these northerners is that as the Kalta'hnk are "of one substance" with the ice, they can in some unexplained way pass the two forces back and forth between themselves and the vast glaciers. Kor repels Kor and Aya repels Aya and the two attract each other, and according to the Antislar certain of their mystics and, it seems, the Kalta'hnk can manipulate this to a greater or lesser degree. However, no Antislar mystic has ever been able to pass Kor and Aya between items, and certain of them, hungry for power, believe that the Kalta'hnk hold the answer; these will pay handsomely for the remains of a Kalta'hnk, believing that imbibing their substance may grant this power. Again, essense, not Kor and Aya.  And cannot pass essense between objects.  However, the Antislar mages (prolly Korayacenes) actively searching for Ice giants in order to advance their knowledge of essense is a good one.

It is also believed by many warriors in the north that eating some ice from a Kalta'hnk can grant their legendary strength and speed; these people often indicate legends of the greatest warriors, which often involve killing an Ice Giant. What these people perhaps overlook is that only the greatest of warriors could kill a Kalta'hnk in the first place, and there is the slight possibility that they have their causal chain back to front.  Only problem with this, is that the Vertan create their harpoons from Ice giants that are growing in caverns beneath the Ice Shelf.  Perhaps tweak this so that an ice giant killed in battle ONLY can grant this power.

Researchers

Almost no-one has been foolish enough carry out field research on the Kalta'hnk. This information has been pieced together - a legend here, an oral tradition there, side notes by researchers of other, less dangerous, topics. Pictures of these beasts have been built up slowly, and very little fieldwork has been done. The vast majority of research has been in the form of writing down hitherto exclusively oral tales.

Most people mad enough to research such a fearsome monster have failed to leave any record; the only alleged eyewitness accounts are the records of a Remusian by the name of Fildreth. His is a curious story: he left the army aged twenty-one, and became a rare breed - an Ice Tribe scholar. He was, however, fixated with the idea of a Kalta'hnk.

At the age of twenty-six, Fildreth left his home in Remusiat, and was never heard of again until he turned up, ten years later, in a small village not five strals distant. He was babbling incoherently, and clearly mad. One resident said that "it was a wonder th'evil spirits din't et us all oop". However, in his pack were discovered five small notebooks, predominated by his observations of the Kalta'hnk. Unfortunately, he died of serious injuries, which he claimed were from his being struck by a Kalta'hnk. The words of a madman, however, cannot be offered as sufficient proof of these beasts' existence.

Usages

The Vertan gather unformed Kalta'hnk - in icicle form - to make their harpoons and tools. They believe that the ice from this source is stronger and more durable than common frozen water, and they may well be right. No uses are known for the living Kalta'hnk - no-one would be crazy enough to try to ride one, and they produce nothing in the way of wool or milk.


Overall, a good start.  It is hard to create this giant in an area that has been fleshed out in theory, but not placed in entry form, yet.  We have had several discussions, so things are in the works, but things evolved as I put them together. :D  My biggest critique is that I don't get an idea of what these creatures are like.  I learn more about Fildreth than I do the Ice giants.  I'd like to see more description of what the ice giants do, act or look like.  You have a great opportunity here to create a mystical being, but you have short changed them, which is a pity.  Real or mythical, they need to come alive in the imagination.  Instead, you have written a scientific paper that speaks to why each culture thinks the way they do about the ice giant than on the ice giant itself.  The core of the entry should not be the Antislar, Remusians and Fildreth, but the Ice giants.  As it is now, they are just the link that connects the other three.

Hopefully, I have made clear my opinion.  If not, feel free to ask any questions you feel necessary.  I'd like to see you complete this. :D

EDIT: PS an excellent entry and a great read is the Ulver (http://www.santharia.com/races/ulvur.htm) entry, by Isilhir.  It sets the Ulver up as mythical, yet contains enough information to make it as real as any other race.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 30 December 2010, 00:35:09
Well thanks for that Alt. It really cleared a lot of things up for me. Firstly, can I just say that there's absolutely no objection from me to your development of the Kura'thun. My interest was only, as always, conditional on it being up for grabs. I've done no work on it; it never went beyond "Yeah, that would be an interesting thing to do." However, as you are doing them, I'm grateful for anything you have to say about the myth I wrote (and I've done some of the edits you pointed out). It's caused no more inconvenience than any time I write an entry and have to work within the world that already exists.

I have to laugh at myself and say that I haven't a damn clue where I got the idea that the Antislar lived on an island from. I just was sure that they did. I clearly drew a wrong impression from discussion on the board, and thought there was an island north of Remusia where the Antislar lived. Stupid me. "The lands of the Antislar" has been substituted.

I'll try to think of a way to rephrase the Antislar philosophy. I've left it at replacing "Koraya" and "Kor and Aya" with "essence", and I've kept the idea of passing it between the ice and the Kalta'hnk for now, because I think there is no real reason for the mystics to chase them otherwise, and it fits with the "power from ice". I promise I'm not going to make an entry or a story about someone who succeeds, and unless someone drugs me and forces about five kilos of ethanol into me, I'm not going to try to make an RP character who can. To all intents and purposes, it's impossible. The mystics are just crazy old men, desperate for power.

Fildreth is a nutcase. Don't take his theory about a DSS seriously. It was just to show how cracked he is. But the sentence is gone anyway.

I think I've now either edited or explained why I'm not going to edit at the moment for all of your comments, except the greater detail. I'll try to get around to it. I think I may need to remove a couple of "supposing"s and the like, just to help the flow.

Oh, and one last thing. Please don't take my opening remarks as sarcastic. I'm aware they can be read so - it's not how they're intended. I know how easy it is to convey the wrong message in a forum.

Ath.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 30 December 2010, 10:05:10
 :D  No worries.  I had hoped that my message wasn't going to insult you.

One thing I did notice, was that you had also shown an interest in Bellerius, and the Lay of Bellerius, as you've named it.  I had envisioned Bellerius as the Antislar Heracles.  But, other than using him in myths for other entries, had no concrete plans for him.  If you were interested in developing him, I'd be all for it and lend you whatever aid I could.  I like the name, Lay of Bellerius.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 23 January 2011, 05:07:48
 :thumbup: for calling him Heracles. Who is this Hercules?  :P

Anyhow, that's an idea but not right now. I assume he'd be more of a patron than a person, Bellerius? That is, regarding the template.

The purpose for which I am here: Has anyone any more comments for this entry? Haol ides?


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 February 2011, 03:58:50
So... I'm looking for entries to integrate next update, and methinks Athviaro has done his final revision here already... So I need a final check on this one - Alt perhaps? Can you have a look and see if the last changes satisfy you?


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 15 February 2011, 15:12:43
Will look it over this week for certain. :)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 07 March 2011, 06:50:37
No, not ready yet for integration, Artimidor. Will comment later.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 08 March 2011, 02:26:09
Well, I do have a few concerns, Azhira, but not the possibility to voice them now, being away from home. It does not make sense to let Art upload stuff which he has to change two weeks later, and be it only a short paragraph. 

I'll comment on Thursday.

Sorry, Ath.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 08 March 2011, 13:04:14
Well, I do have a few concerns, Azhira, but not the possibility to voice them now, being away from home. It does not make sense to let Art upload stuff which he has to change two weeks later, and be it only a short paragraph. 

I'll comment on Thursday.

Sorry, Ath.

Sorry, I went ahead and removed my last comment. I want to wait for Talia and Altario to be satisfied with this before I comment. Sorry for the confusion.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 12 March 2011, 01:17:18
Hey Ath, let's have a look at these!



Bestiary>Monsters, Land>Kalta'hnk

I thought they are mythical, according what you wrote in the other entry? „It should be said that scholarly opinion considers the Kalta'hnk mythical“ Then they should be listed under mythical beasts.  

The Kalta'hnk (singular and plural: Kalta'hnk) are vast, humanoid looking creatures of living ice said to inhabit the eastern Icelands of Northern Sarvonia. They are said to be several times the size of a man with supernatural strength, speed and cunning, coupled with extreme malevolence. Some have even mastered language in the way that humans understand the term.

They only look, as if they are humanoid, they are not really humanoid creatures, right?
Language? Half sentient? Then this is a new race, and I think new races are still forbidden. Maybe they communicate in a way, like wolfs or other animals?

Appearance

Only one person who was insane enough to research the Kalta'hnk has left records: a Remusian man who did not agree with army life, Fildreth. In his records he left this pithy description of what a Kalta'hnk is, in the form of a direct address to the reader

Imagine a man of solid ice standing before you. Now imagine that he is three times the size, with eyes the size of small shields, burning with icy cruelty. His frosty limbs have the strength of a glacier, and his voice is ancient and doom laden, like the ominous sound of several hundred hebs of ice shifting above your head. Imagine a mouth like a cave, a cavern stretching far back, vicious icicles protruding from floor and roof, all at least a fore long. You have not even begun to approach the true horror of the Kalta'hnk. Their name means approximately "Icy Bite" in the tongue of the Orcs, Khom'chr'om. The bravest men flee when faced with one of these thankfully rare monstrosities; standing at between three and four peds (not two score, as some old legends tell), these creatures are most certainly not to be underestimated.

A description based only on one account, from an army deserteur? He probably was drunk!
There must be other people who have witnessed them, or know stories about them. I would like to see here a summary of what more people tell, or what is narrated in their myths. As the writer of this essay, I want your sholarly opinion, how they could look like, if they really existed. Your nicely written description from Fildreth can be added at the end, with some distance concerning the credibility. (with smaller letters)

Special Abilities

Fildreth also wrote in his journals much on the abilities of the Kalta'hnk; their famed strength in particular. Thus we have this short but informative sentence, neatly encapsulating these beasts

Utterly resistant to cold, the Kalta'hnk possess seemingly limitless stamina and vast strength.

The writing meanders a bit after this point, and he begins an earnest study of certain types of bird, but then later on, after supposedly being struck by one of these creatures, he wrote

Imagine being hit square in the ribs by a glacier moving as fast as a gale, and you will have some idea of what being struck by this creature felt like. It brushed me aside with barely a flick and continued.
They have a preternaturally heightened sense of sight, and seem to have the ability to sense heat, which is given off by most creatures, in the same way as they sense light. In this way they can "see" even on the darkest night.

A small excerpt from slightly earlier in his notes completes the picture

The creatures, probably by minute internal shifting, are able to produce a heavy sound, almost certainly  a form of communication. However, I cannot say how complex or involved a tongue theirs is, but according to the Antislar, some can produce the sounds of human speech, as recorded in the "Lay of Bellerius".


Ath, this will look impossible, once uploaded on the site. You need to structure this differently. Again, the account of this single man is not heavy enough, that it would be taken into consideration for a compendium entry. In addition, that part about the internal shifting does not sound if it would come from Fildreth. That could be your interpretation.

How or why does Fildreth know, that they have  a heightened sense of sight? Or that they can sense heat? That is a mere statement.

Territory

As this researcher has never seen one of these beasts, this following is merely based on the prevalence of legends and folklore from whom?  concerning these beasts. They seem to inhabit or have inhabited mainly the coastal areas of Northern Sarvonia, predominantly the Icelands coast and the lands of the Antislar.

Their icy bodies seem to - fortunately for civilisation, if these beasts are real - act like normal ice when exposed to heat, limiting them to areas where to snow lies all year round. They are also limited by the fact that they need to draw sustenance from ice as well, and so could not go on for long off the vast ice fields of the regions they inhabit.

How do you know, that they need sustenance from ice?

Habitat/Behaviour

These creatures are almost impossible to watch in their natural activities. As soon as they seem to sense a potential threat, they will simply lash out with their immense strength. They are for this reason only ever observed from a great distance, and apart from the stories and myths in which they play a role, are most often said to stride across the bleak ice-fields, searching, some say, for their mortal enemies the Kura'thun, their fiery opposites, while others say, more sinisterly, for human flesh.

Please, leave the Kura‘thun out , they could be added later, when they are developed.

They seem therefore to inhabit these vast sheet of uncivilised ice, though they are said to need no rest and draw strength from the ice. For this reason they do not need lairs or dens of any kind, though they may stand still in the relative heat of the day.

Diet

This account is also written by Fildreth, although here he claims to have garnered some information from the tribal peoples of the area

I have come to the conclusion that the Kalta'hnk somehow draw nourishment from the very ice itself. This view is also held by most I have talked to; however, the understanding of the mechanism differs. The Antislar believe that this is a function of the force of essence, and that in movement the Ice Biters manipulate the forces of repulsion and attraction by passing this essence back and forth into the ice. There are several other proposed methods. However, over time, all methods are claimed to become less and less efficient and the Ice Giant needs to spend more and more time absorbing energy without moving simply to avoid net loss. When it is no longer capable of even this, it melts to form a new Kalta'hnk. No system is more supported by my observations than the others - all that does not reach the realm of pure personal opinion is that they draw their energy from the ice.

Some more sinister legends say that the Ice Biters need the warmth of human blood to offset the frozen chill of their icy bodies, and old tales record them demanding tributes in the forms of the most beautiful maidens or the foremost young men.

It is not a good idea, to use ideas in an entry, which are not yet fully developed and not yet on the site, as Altarios essense/Koraya idea. Essence is used in the description of the druidic magic and I don‘t know, if it will be used for Altario's idea in the end. It is not really needed here. And again, the conclusions should better come from you than Fildreth.

Reproduction

The Kalta'hnk, by all accounts, do not mate. Rather, when one of their number grows old it melts and flows into the ice at its feet; it is then said that the special ice from which they are formed - in that it can possess a kind of sentience - moves through the sheets of ice randomly until it comes together in sufficient amounts to create a new Ice Giant. Then, slowly, an icicle starts to grow, from the floor or sometimes - in an ice cavern - from the ceiling.

After a few score years - no more precise number is available, as the legends vary widely in their accounts - a fully formed Kalta'hnk has grown. This is very infrequent, as the Kalta'hnk outlive several generations of men, and only grow tired when they cannot absorb energy from the ice sufficient to keep them going. This act is believed to be completely voluntary, but as a selfish race most Kalta'hnk typically choose to remain as long as possible in the world.

A Kalta'hnk which has been killed, usually by fire or similar, will not do this. If it melts, the water will refreeze and become normal ice, or seep into the ground. Thus killing one of these beast permanently reduces the total - no bad thing, in the eyes of many. This, say the Ice Tribes, explains why they are even more rare in Antislar than the rest of the area, though it is said that this is in fact their ancestral homeland - it is claimed that they were mostly killed by a hero named Bellerius.

Origins

There are three main myths surrounding the origins of the Kalta'hnk. The Ice Tribes of the North believe that they are the pets and creations of Pargis, God of Ice, and that they do or did his bidding. Some say that he mated with the Goddess of Water, Heterniz, and this explains why beings of ice can move.

However, there is another theory prevalent in the north of Santharia, and amongst the elves; that the Kalta'hnk are the children of the original Water Titan, Már'estár, made to aid him in his eternal war against the other Titans, his siblings. Their eternal war with the Kura'thun, Denizens of the Molten Pools, is said to stem from this; as the respective armies of Már'estár and Efér'estár, the Kalta'hnk and the Kura'thun have mutual and mortal enmity at the very cores of their beings.

Please, skip this! Thank you!

Those who have no Gods, or who give very little credence to some myths concerning their offspring, believe that the Kalta'hnk were made as mindless automatons during the War of the Chosen, as an elite force in the armies of one of the northern Chosen, and that in his death his malicious spirit passed into his creations, filling them with the hate which lay at the very core of his being. Proponents of this theory point to reported demanding of human sacrifice - in sentient creatures such as these, unattributable to feral instinct or the need for food, and so claimed to spring entirely from unadulterated malevolence.

Again, sentient. If they are sentient, they are a new race which is a no-no.

Myth/Lore

Much lore and many myths surround these monsters. Several Icelands myths involve them as the villains, often extorting live humans as offerings from small settlements. Myriad theories have been proposed to explain how creatures of ice, with no muscles or skeleton, are able to move; most involve magic of some kind. The Ice Tribes even claim that they were animated directly by the gods; a fragment of an ancient text, a relic in a secluded Temple of Pargis, records that "through the union of Ice and Water were these creatures created and as the offspring of such, are not Ice, frozen in position, but neither Water, formless and elusive: rather a middle; moving ice." For Compendium readers unfamiliar with Ice Tribe myth, the God Pargis and Goddess Heterniz are the deities of Ice and Water, and are seen as these two fundamental Icelands truths personified; therefore the text talks of the union of "Ice and Water". Similar trends are displayed in the worship of, for example, Grothar, who is known as Weathergod or Rainlord by some.

The Antislar have a theory in which the Kalta'hnk manipulate the force of essence in order to use the forces of repulsion and attraction to move. The theory postulated by these northerners is that as the Kalta'hnk are "of one substance" with the ice, they can in some unexplained way pass the two forces back and forth between themselves and the vast glaciers. According to the Antislar certain of their mystics and, it seems, the Kalta'hnk can manipulate this mysterious force to a greater or lesser degree, although no Antislar mystic has ever been able to pass it between items, and certain of them, hungry for power, believe that the Kalta'hnk hold the answer; these will pay handsomely for the remains of a Kalta'hnk, believing that imbibing their substance may grant this power.

See above, but clear that with Altario.

It is also believed by many warriors in the north that eating some ice from a Kalta'hnk killed in battlecan grant their legendary strength and speed; these people often indicate legends of the greatest warriors, which often involve killing an Ice Giant. What these people perhaps overlook is that only the greatest of warriors could kill a Kalta'hnk in the first place, and there is the slight possibility that they have their causal chain back to front. Unfortunately for the Vertan, whose caves are supposed to contain Kalta'hnk in their infancy, this stipulation has prevented them from becoming the mightiest tribe of the north.

Researchers

Almost no-one has been foolish enough carry out field research on the Kalta'hnk. This information has been pieced together - a legend here, an oral tradition there, side notes by researchers of other, less dangerous, topics. Pictures of these beasts have been built up slowly, and very little fieldwork has been done. The vast majority of research has been in the form of writing down hitherto exclusively oral tales.

Most people mad enough to research such a fearsome monster have failed to leave any record; the only alleged eyewitness accounts are the records of a Remusian by the name of Fildreth. His is a curious story: he left the army aged twenty-one, and became a rare breed - an Ice Tribe scholar. He was, however, fixated with the idea of a Kalta'hnk.

That‘s a bit floppy for the compendium

At the age of twenty-six, Fildreth left his home in Remusiat, and was never heard of again until he turned up, ten years later, in a small village not five strals distant. He was babbling incoherently, and clearly mad. One resident said that "it was a wonder th'evil spirits din't et us all oop". However, in his pack were discovered five small notebooks, predominated by his observations of the Kalta'hnk. Unfortunately, he died of serious injuries, which he claimed were from his being struck by a Kalta'hnk. The words of a madman, however, cannot be offered as sufficient proof of these beasts' existence.

Usages

The Vertan gather what they think are unformed Kalta'hnk - in icicle form - to make their harpoons and tools. They believe that the ice from this source is stronger and more durable than common frozen water, and they may well be right. No uses are known for the living Kalta'hnk - no-one would be crazy enough to try to ride one, and they produce nothing in the way of wool or milk.

Well, that is a bit contrary to the fact, that you described them as being more mythical than real. The last sentence sounds funny, but is somehow out of place. Usages should be put before myth/lore.


An interesting mythical beast and already well written, Athviaro,  but I think you, with your writing abilities, could do it still a bit better, give it more form, tell us more about it than about Fildreth, as Altario already said. Maybe add some location, where a myth says, it appeared, mention another icetribe than just the Antislar. Add, that the Himiko don‘t know this myth...

Take a break and then polish! :)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 14 March 2011, 22:15:11
From a developer standpoint, it was decided with Altario that the Ice Biters were NOT a mythical beast. They are extremely rare and live in deep ice caves, but they are by no means mythical. The Antislar and Caaehl'heroth orcs believe in them, and have recorded actual sightings and encounters with these beasts.

However, unless you happen to live in an icelands region and are a member of these tribes, the Ice Biter will seem mythical and far-fetched. To a Southern compendiumist, gathering proof or witnessing an Ice Biter would be nigh impossible unless you go deep underground during certain times and with certain guides. And would an Antislar take an outsider on a merry field trip to see an Ice Biter? Doubtful. And certainly, an orc wouldn't take anyone on such a sight-seeing expedition!

Basically, to an outsider, the Ice Biter is a mysterious phenomena. The tribes insist on their existence, but none have seen one outside the tribes to prove either/or. If an Antislar wrote the entry, it would be real. If a Ximaxian wrote it, it would be mythical.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 March 2011, 22:52:22
Well, that is no problem. I depends a bit on the researcher though, the one who writes for the compendium, how the outcome is.

Let's assume, it would be one of the South, then he would describe the beast as a myth and it would definitely go into the myth section. He would be very sceptical about what the icetribes tell him. He would state, that he thinks this beast can only be mythical, but tells as well, that the inhabitants of the area think it is very realm but that in his opinions, that are only folktales and the accounts spring from fear or whatever.

Now the compendium writer is Athviaro, a Northerner himself. This makes things different. He, though he has not seen one himself, believes, that the sightings his tribe narrates about could well be true, or have a true core afterall (maybe his grandfather told him stories about an encounter) . He will of course write differently. He might  admit, that the narrations, the research outcome look very much as if this is a mythical beast only, maybe an extinct beast, but as he is rooted in this civilisation, he gives the stories much more credit.

But that has to be stated clearly. The reader should have a clear image throughoutthe submission, the description should not be done in a way, that sometimes it looks as if it is a mythical beast, in the next paragraph a real beast.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 23 May 2012, 23:05:46
Athviaro

I am ready to fast track this entry to completion. Seems like a good replacement for Vesk's Ice trolls. What do you need from me to finish? If you don't have time, I can do it.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Mina on 24 May 2012, 01:57:56
I'm not familiar with Northern geography, but they don't seem to be located near any orcish tribes, and there is no mention of interactions with orcs in the entry either, so why do they have, and appear to be primarily known by, a Kh'omchr'om name?   :veryconfused:

Edit: Ah, seems I misread the location of the Heath of Wilderon, and it's much closer to the Icelands than I thought.  Might still be a good idea to mention the orcs a little more though. 


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 24 May 2012, 23:55:14
The idea was that the Ice Biters were primarily known by the orcs. My original plan was that the creatures inhabited the far northern mountains of Caaehl'heroth where the ancient Aeh'os'th'er'oc orcs once lived.

The Ice Biters then kinda migrated down to the Icelands inhabiting most all ice mountains in the area. Altario then borrowed them for the Antislar (the Ice Biter young are "harvested" for use as spears given that they are not prone to melting as fast and are strong as stone).


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 June 2012, 03:21:26
You still around, Ath? There's an offer by Azhira to help you get this one done if you're too busy at the moment... How about it?


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 21 June 2012, 03:37:18
Yes, I saw; I've really got a lot on my plate at the moment, what with exams etc., and Azzy said it'd be OK to keep it on hold for a little longer, I think.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 June 2012, 04:01:49
Ah, ok, then no rush here then, Ath. Good luck on exams and everything - maybe we can sort this one's out a bit later!  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 01 January 2015, 00:38:17
I'd like to pick this up and finish it once and for all. It looks very nearly done, and credit can go to me and Ath for it.  ;)


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 January 2015, 01:21:22
Yaaaaay! Azhira's back! That's what I call a New Year's resolution... :) :clap: :clap: :clap:

And with an entry that has been... four years in the making... (with a tiny break) :lol: Anyway, great to hear, Azhira! looking forward to it!  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr on 01 January 2015, 19:30:05
Oh, Christ. I'd forgotten about this – sorry not to have relinquished it earlier. I'd really like to make my return to Santharia this year, but I'm finding getting time to work on my masterwork difficult. I miss being here.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 January 2015, 22:42:00
Hello again to you as well, Ath! :wave:

Another one from which we haven't heard for ages... Anyway, guess Azhira will take over this one and get it done, but would be great to hear from you some more as well, masterwork or not! :cool: I don't even know anymore what you wanted to do as your masterwork or far it has progressed... Geez... Masterworks also don't necessarily need to be monster entries BTW.


Title: Re: Kalta'hnk/Ice Giant/Ice Biter
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 23 March 2015, 21:46:26
Masterworks just need to be a nice entry, nothing huge (although mines was an entirely new race  :P totally not required!)

I've got this down to editing off site now.