Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Cosmology, Myths and Religions => Topic started by: Alexandre Scriabin on 16 November 2010, 06:26:41



Title: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 16 November 2010, 06:26:41
For the religion:

OVERVIEW: The Ash'mari religion predicates itself upon a history of violence. Dynamic in that history is the Burning Night (the fall of the Mynian Empire), which stoked an independent group of barbarians and allowed them to develop alone as they searched for a home. As they migrated from the current dwelling of the Losh'oc to the Hovel Frond forest, they became increasingly isolationist and accumulated rather different values than their Kuglimz kinsmen.

Initially, they were just seen as more feral than their other kin. And then things escalated when they were enslaved by the Diorye'oleal elves and attacked the other Kuglimz. Soon, their beliefs were almost entirely irrespective of the other Kuglimz.

PREVALENCE- Rather than being based upon pious worship of token deities, as it customarily is with other religions, the Ash'mari religion is more of a derivation of their culture than it is a pursuit of sanctity and greater knowledge. There is no class of the religious elite, no building designated for worship, and only a few rituals are done, at festival times or before a raid.

BELIEF OUTLINES- Essentially, they don't believe in anything other than unadulterated violence. There are no relative values such as good and bad, and they don't hold anything of a hope in their gods, that there is something to look forward to. All they can place their hope in is strife. To get ahead, they must embrace conflict.

There are a scant few pithy sayings that have been recorded over the years from what little contact has been had. These characterize their beliefs, and are as such:

"It is me against my brother, me and my brother against my cousin, me, my brother and my cousin against my folk, and me and my folk against the world."

Likewise, their gods are characters that are the manifest form of these certain values they are looking after in order to survive. Rather than thinking about their enemies during battle, their prey during the hunt, and their kind when the spoils are divided, they value conforming to their god's personalities in these situations, and feel that if they meet their demands with feral hunting, violent war making, and greedy pillaging, that they can live longer by meriting divine favor. There is no skill or ability involved in their minds. Only the state of either having favor or not having it.

If anything, however, they are more immediately concerned with their masters: the Diorye'oleal elves. Because of their impressive feats of magic, the Ash'mari consider them a race of lesser gods (the third and lowest tier of deities), and hang on their every word. When the Dioyre'oleal send them to war, the Ash'mari relish the act. And when the Diorye'oleal delegate their slaves to do manual labor, the Ash'mari relish the act equally.

THE ASH'MARI PANTHEON-

Greatest:

The great goddess named Seitre'otorm, which means "tongue like snake", represents fertility, and manipulation. She illustrates to young Ash'mari that womenfolk can be like a two-edged blade.

The great god named Ian'fa, not being a name like we might think of it, but a statement saying "we are descendants of the man," represents divine providence. While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct, Ian'fa is the reason that they live as long as they get to live. He is attributed with the creation and delegation of the three lesser gods over the Dioyre'oleal elves, and by extension over the Ash'mari.

Greater:

The name Ash'fa, meaning "the fierce man", represents war and conquest, and demands that much blood be spilled in order to quell his wrath.

The name Mari'put, "the blood/bane wolf", is the feral wolf who kills his enemies without clothing or shield, and demands that they hunt their prey in the same manner.

The name Fau'taug, "the feasting man", is a glutton who relishes in the appropriated goods of his fallen enemies and kinsmen, and demands that they fight each other with rigor and gusto for and over the spoils of their conquests.

The Prophet/Puppet:

The name Dirg'mari, meaning "the leader of the wolves/Ash'mari", was the first leader of the Ash'mari after the burning night. Delegated to the menial labor of governing the Ash'mari for the three "gods", Dirg'mari is today celebrated as a kind of prophet.

The demigods:

The Diorye'oleal elves (Hidden wind elves) are a tribe of dark elves who live in the Hovel Frond Forest. Because of their skills with magic, the Ash'mari serve as their slaves and worship them like a race of minor deities.

ORIGINS- The Ash'mari have only officially committed a few things to memory, because of their relatively scanty oral tradition. As such, the only things memorable enough for them to recollect after the burning night was that their All-Mother and All-Father physically died protecting them from Orcs, and now preside over their three Gods (Ash'fa, Mari'put and Fau'taug) and Prophet (Dirg'mari).

Modern compendium charters and scholars have suggested that we think of the three lesser Ash'mari gods as the first leaders of the war bands (Ash'fa), of the hunting parties (Mari'put), and of the distribution of pillaged goods (Fau'taug), who delegated the menial labor of governing the Ash'mari to Dirg'mari. This has been supposed because the Ash'mari do not worship Dirg'mari as if he was a deity, and the compendium scholars believe the Ash'mari have a tendency to behave in such a manner politically and socially, which is supported by the frequency with which the barbarians fight over the right to rule.

For Ash'fa:

Ash'fa translates from the Ash'mari tongue into "the fierce man". Together with Mari'put and Fau'taug, Ash'fa is one from the pantheon of war gods worshiped by the Ash'mari barbarians. After the burning night (the fall of the Mynian Empire in 1649 b.S.), Ash'fa took a leading role in the war bands, and along with Mari'put and Fau'taug, he subjugated Dirg'mari for his own glorification.

APPEARANCE- Being a particularly awesome visage, Ash'fa stands at a height of 2 peds 7 fores, and is made of burnished iron and bronze, sparkling and still hot to the touch. His humanoid body is featureless, aside from the slits he has for nasal openings, eyes, and lips.

And, similar to a waterfall wasting away water into an empty abyss, Ash'fa is portrayed drinking tankard after tankard of blood perched upon his granite throne, far above the trees of Hovel Frond.

IMPORTANCE- High atop the trees, sitting upon his granite throne, Ash'fa exhorts and coerces the Ash'mari to spill more and more blood for his enjoyment. So greedy is he, for fresh blood, that he punishes  the barbarians (most often with disease and various political reasons for death) if they don't spill as much blood as they can while pitched in battle.

For Mari'put-

Mari'put translates from the Ash'mari tongue into "the blood\bane wolf". Together with Ash'fa and Fau'taug, Mari'put is one from the pantheon of war gods worshiped by the Ash'mari barbarians. After the burning night (the fall of the Mynian Empire in 1649 b.S.), Ash'fa took a leading role in the hunting parties, and along with Mari'put and Fau'taug, he subjugated Dirg'mari for his own glorification.

APPEARANCE- There is no worldly conception of how he looks other than that his kin, the wolves of Hovel Frond, are each lesser likenesses of him and his feral predilection. He has never made an appearance in the forest, and the Ash'mari suppose that Mari'put is off hunting in the great void that they overheard their masters speaking of.

IMPORTANCE- Off hunting alone and unclothed in the great void, ripping his prey apart and parading their entrails and private parts about, Ash'fa demands that the Ash'mari hunt like his wolves. If any Ash'mari were to wear armor or protect himself with a shield during combat, he would be doomed to die from the very same blade he wants protection from. So, the moral of the story is that they had better get thick hides and get them quick.

For Fau'taug-

Fau'taug translates from the Ash'mari tongue into "the feasting man". Together with Ash'fa and Mari'put, Fau'taug is one from the pantheon of war gods worshiped by the Ash'mari barbarians. After the burning night (the fall of the Mynian Empire in 1649 b.S.), Fau'taug used every means necessary, from freshly forged blades and hidden pikes around his dwelling place, to accrue more and more plunder and protect his own goods from everyone else in the tribe, and along with Mari'put and Fau'taug, he subjugated Dirg'mari for his own glorification.

APPEARANCE- Manifesting himself as a gluttonous mass of flesh and hair, his humanity is barely discernible underneath the folds of fat that dominate his figure. Fau'taug is often depicted as trying to appropriate any little earring, dagger, cup, eating utensil, uneaten scrap of meat, or trinket he can find in the hands of an unwary barbarian.

IMPORTANCE- Fau'taug slinks across the forest floor, his oily flesh masking the noise of his movement, and steals without reservation or inhibition. At the least, he demands that a proper fight be had every time the barbarians consider what to do with the spoils of their conquests.

For Sur'tyan:

Sur'tyan translates from the barbarian tongue into All Father. Together with His help-meat Lier'tyan, He is the supreme God of the Ash'mari. Before the Burning Night, He was physically present as their chief, and left them with their Gods and Prophet to protect them as they went in search of a new home.

APPEARANCE- Much like an older leader of the pack, Sur'tyan is a normal sized barbarian, with a luxurious white beard signifying age and wisdom, and a musclebound body signifying vitality and power.

He is depicted most in his hall, drinking from a tankard of ale, with the mounted heads of beast, orc, elf, dwarf, and man alike strewn around him.

IMPORTANCE- Ian'fa serves manifold purposes:

He is the ruler of the heavens, and Caelereth is under His dominion. His wife, being empathetic, pestered Him to help the barbarian folk down at ground level, and He saw they were having trouble with the orcs. Not wanting to waste His time with them, He drew up a large ball of fire into the sky so that they could see more than a couple of feet in front of them, and figured that would do.

The wife continued on with Her concerns, and eventually went down to the Ash'mari. While a bit disgruntled, He figured He would make strong men out of them anyway, and built a great kingdom of barbarian folk. He taught them how to fight, taught them how to hunt, and taught them masonry to build a Great Hall (which their Great Hall in Hovel Frond is a "faithful replica" of their first Great Hall).

The jealous orcs

For Seitre'otorm:



Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 16 November 2010, 07:22:48
The big question is what kinds of gods to the Ash'mari worship. Like the other Kuglimz before their fall, the Ash'mari worshiped Sur'tyan and Lier'tyan. Another question, secondary to this, is how do the barbarians' overseers worship (the Diorye'oleal?) Did the Ash'mari have a blend of religions over time with the dark elves? Or did the Ash'mari develop their own unique worship?

I would advise against creating an entirely new pantheon of gods at this time. It is tempting, but perhaps instead take the Kuglimz pantheon and twist them into something far darker and violent. It gives a consistent picture overall of the tribes' fall into something opposite the proud Kuglimz from which they came.

When I created the Kaaer, they initially adopted a mix of Kuglimz and Orcen worship. However, I abandoned that in favor of a more nature-centric culture with elven influences. As I backward develop the Osther-Oc (who originally were of a different religion anyway) and mix with the as yet undeveloped Antislar, I will merge the To'ava with those two tribes to create a similar picture of religions between the three.

Tattooing is a big part of Ash'mari culture and will hold significant religious meaning to them. Likely they revere war, conquest and violence. But also keep in mind that the dark elves drive them to such ends, and the Ash'mari may not have always been that way. The dark elves probably brain washed the poor Ash'mari into thinking their Kuglimz ancestors disowned them, or belittled them somehow, and used that to drive a wedge in the Ash'mari loyalties.

The tribe as a whole would have to begin developing a way to become independent at some point in their life. Being submissive to the dark elves forever is not something any culture is willing to do. As you work on the religion, try to keep in mind the tribe overall in development because likely you'll want to change the culture in some ways too.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 16 November 2010, 07:30:35
Some points to start from (considering what Azhira had to say):

1. It really isn't likely that the dark elves would care enough to instill their religion upon the Ash'Mari people. The Ash'Mari are more akin to pets than comrades, so why teach them anything whatsoever about elven thinking? However, the Diorye'oleal themselves could be used as an object of worship. Maybe the Ash'Mari could consider them the lesser gods.

2. The Ash'Mari (as far as I can tell), started out as the Gor'mari clan of the Kuglimz, so it would be appropriate to use the Kuglimz as a reference point for the Ash'Mari. And like you said, Azhira, it would be the most fitting to use the Kuglimz pantheon of gods.

3. The Ash'Mari, more so than any other Kuglimz people, are very antisocial, barbaric, and simplistic. Considering that, their beliefs and demeanor shouldn't be as varied and complicated as the rest of the Kuglimz (even though Kuglimz beliefs aren't all that varied and complicated in the first place). Moreover, I do agree with Azhira here that their view of the gods should be manipulated into something more primal and violent.

4. As for how they worship, I am confident that there should be nothing involved in Ash'Mari worship other than tattoo rites, leadership squabbles, and being as violent and gruesome as possible when dispatching of one's enemies during war.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 16 November 2010, 07:37:57
Quote
The dark elves probably brain washed the poor Ash'mari into thinking their Kuglimz ancestors disowned them, or belittled them somehow, and used that to drive a wedge in the Ash'mari loyalties.

Actually, it says in the history of the Ash'Mari that one leader left his clan and met the dark elves, and then returned to the elves with his people. It's doubtful they would have brainwashed him into thinking they were disowned by the Kuglimz (seeing as they were still Kuglimz at that point, and separated with them of their own volition, however perverted it was by the dark elves), but he could have been influenced into worshiping the dark elves as lesser gods.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 16 November 2010, 08:30:33
This matriarchal worship of the All-Mother as some Goddess who took compassion upon the men of Caelereth, and the All-Father who listened to his wife's pleading and went with her to the Kuglimz in human form: it definitely needs to be twisted into something different. If the Ash'Mari were loathe to worship the All-Mother, and didn't think of the All-Father in the same way as the other Kuglimz, it would make for a good explanation of the peoples separating from one another.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 November 2010, 05:33:18
Some thoughts on Gods for barbarians: The Ash'mari developed from Kuglimz, and looking at the Kuglimz, their Gods Sur'Tyan and Lier'Tyan were actually people. They were rulers of the kingdom and were idolized, became mythical figures who were eventually worshipped as Gods (we'll take a very similar approach with the Santharian Twelvern religion eventually BTW).

While the Kuglimz became more noble in general by developing a proper cavalry etc., the Ash'mari obviously didn't fare so well. They were corrupted and even attacked the Kuglimz later on. In the Ash'mari entry we mainly find:

Quote
In time they grew closer to the darkness that was the Hovel Frond and forsook many of the Kuglimz ways. They fell away from their gods Sur'tyan and Lier'tyan and started to worship bloodthirsty gods.

It could be that what the Kuglimz did when they developed their religion could also have happened to the Ash'mari, who were not so much interested in spirituality, but in the might of men who can rule them. So maybe they also worship "Gods" that developed from leaders. Maybe some managed to acquire powers from the Dior'ye'oleal that make them different, so that they must appear to their more primitive brethren as Gods.

Also: Barbarians in general aren't that organized, so it could be that they formed several different clans, sub-tribes etc., and that they therefore also worshipped different Gods, because it all fell pretty much apart as far as consistent structures were concerned. For barbarians it was more important to be strong and able to survive, and the bond with the dark elves probably was very important to them, gave them also self-confidence if the elves provided some powers for key members, so that they could set out and conquer on their own. So maybe there's also a religious linkage there.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 17 November 2010, 13:58:49
Yes, we should probably start it off by making them a Vir'tog and detailing how it is was that their Vir'tog affected them. Considering the fact that some of the other Kuglimz clan's namesakes are their Vir'tog, I would suggest that we name the Ash'mari Vir'tog "Dirg'mari" (which I believe Dirg'mari would mean "leader wolf" in their tongue).

A rudimentary description of this Dirg'mari:

The deity Dirg'mari is a personification of everything feral, and as an alleged leader of the Ash'mari during their initial exodus, he ruled with martial force. He taught them to recognize the three true deities that would dominate their culture- the hunt, the kill, and the spoils.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 17 November 2010, 14:25:43
Actually, due to Kuglimz grammatical structure, Dirg'mari would translate as "wolf leader" not "leader wolf". Our grammar structure, the reverse of the Southern pattern is.

A nit-picky point it is, but perhaps the Ash'mari would similarly speak?  Admit it we Kuglimz would prefer not to, but distantly related to us they are. :-)


Alysse the Likely


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Bard Judith on 17 November 2010, 14:45:04
I should note, hopefully clarifyingly, that by the laws of Tharian grammar, the word which comes FIRST modifies the other.  So a 'wolf leader' is one who leads the wolves (not necessarily a wolf himself, and 'wolves' could also be metaphorical), while a 'leader wolf' must be a) a wolf and b) in charge of and guiding wolves.   By the laws of Kuglimz, the exact reverse is true.

   They also reverse, as you can see from Alysse's sentence structure (boy, that would be hard to say with a lisp!) other grammatical constructions which Tharian/English takes for granted. I think putting the verb at the end is one typical pattern, for example.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 17 November 2010, 14:55:28
PREVALENCE- Rather than being based upon pious worship of token deities, as it customarily is with other religions, the Ash'mari religion is more of a derivation for their culture than it is a pursuit of sanctity and greater knowledge. There is no class of the religious elite, no building designated for worship, and only a few rituals are done on occasion to substantiate their religion, which include the Taug'fa'yale ("Burning Man Feast"), Taug'put ("Blood Feast"), and Taug'dirg ("Leader's Feast").

BELIEF OUTLINES- From a philosophical standpoint, they don't believe in anything other than unadulterated violence. There are no relative values such as good and bad, and they don't hold anything of a hope in their gods that there is something to look forward to.

Likewise, their gods are characters that represent certain values they are looking after in order to survive. Ash'fa (the fierce man) represents war and conquest, and demands that much blood be spilled in order to quell his wrath. Mari'put (the blood/bane wolf) is the feral wolf who kills him enemies without clothing or shield, and demands that they hunt their prey in the same manner. Fau'taug (the feasting man) is a glutton who relishes in the appropriated goods of his fallen enemies, and demands that they fight each other with rigor and gusto over the spoils of their conquests. Moreover, rather than thinking about their enemies during battle, they look to the gods to determine whether or not they live or die, and feel that if they meet their demands with feral hunting, violent war making, and greedy pillaging, that they can live longer.

If anything, however, they are more immediately concerned with their masters: the Diorye'oleal elves. Because of their impressive feats of magic, the Ash'mari consider them lesser gods, and hang on their every word. When the Dioyre'oleal send them to war, the Ash'mari relish the act. And when the Diorye'oleal delegate their slaves to do manual labor, the Ash'mari relish the act equally.

ORIGINS- The Ash'mari have no recollection of fall of the Mynian Empire, because of their lack of oral tradition. As such, the only thing memorable enough for them to recollect after the burning night was their first leader, the Vir'tog named Dirg'mari, and how he brought them to their new territory and taught them about the gods.

Edit: Dirg'mari, as an important figure in the thinking of the Ash'mari, is not actually seen as a god. Rather, they look to him as a mighty teacher and the benchmark for the leaders after him.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 17 November 2010, 14:57:38
Actually, due to Kuglimz grammatical structure, Dirg'mari would translate as "wolf leader" not "leader wolf". Our grammar structure, the reverse of the Southern pattern is.

A nit-picky point it is, but perhaps the Ash'mari would similarly speak?  Admit it we Kuglimz would prefer not to, but distantly related to us they are. :-)


Alysse the Likely


No, I agree with you. However, "wolf leader" and "leader wolf" work in much the same way, so if you folks are okay with it, I'd like to stick with the name Dirg'mari.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 18 November 2010, 07:12:12
Quote
Some thoughts on Gods for barbarians: The Ash'mari developed from Kuglimz, and looking at the Kuglimz, their Gods Sur'Tyan and Lier'Tyan were actually people. They were rulers of the kingdom and were idolized, became mythical figures who were eventually worshipped as Gods (we'll take a very similar approach with the Santharian Twelvern religion eventually BTW).

What Arti said here is important. The foundation of the human belief system is largely based on the concept of powerful humans ascending to godhood (the Osther-Oc orcs also take a similar view). Until recently, the elven and human basis of the gods were not developed, but now the general basis is human becomes powerful and becomes god. And, human gods are more in-tune and involved with their mortal worshipers than elven ones.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 18 November 2010, 08:01:38
So basically, Azhira, you are saying that we need to make a historical basis for all of this? It wouldn't be all that difficult to bring in the new Vir'tog, but I'm guessing you'll want me to make a historic precedent for the three deities as well.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 18 November 2010, 08:34:52
I'd suggest you start with the Vir'tog, since the historical precedent for that is already in the Kuglimz belief entry.  We can always expand upon the original information later on.  I'm not trying to shut you down here, but unless you narrow your focus a little, you may find the entry starting to get unmanageably large and you might begin to feel overwhelmed.

I think the name Dirg'mari is fine.  :thumbup:  I just thought I'd mention that little idiosyncrasy of the language so you could start with the right set of rules, especially when you are thinking of names for people and places.   It always helps to know these little details. 

Hope this helps.   Let me know if you have any questions.


Alysse the Likely


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 18 November 2010, 10:29:53
I'd suggest you start with the Vir'tog, since the historical precedent for that is already in the Kuglimz belief entry.  We can always expand upon the original information later on.  I'm not trying to shut you down here, but unless you narrow your focus a little, you may find the entry starting to get unmanageably large and you might begin to feel overwhelmed.

I think the name Dirg'mari is fine.  :thumbup:  I just thought I'd mention that little idiosyncrasy of the language so you could start with the right set of rules, especially when you are thinking of names for people and places.   It always helps to know these little details.  

Hope this helps.   Let me know if you have any questions.


Alysse the Likely

I'm sorry, but you have confused me a bit here. I didn't mean to imply that I was going to start with the three war deities, rather than the Vir'tog. Are you meaning to say that I should put off doing any more work on the deities and just draft a history of Dirg'mari's exploits?


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 18 November 2010, 12:24:30
Oh, Alexandre, I'm sorry.  I wasn't trying to confuse you, or tell you what you should or shouldn`t do.  I  just wanted to caution you against taking on too big a bite for your first project.  Occasionally an ambitious or enthusiastic newbie (and some of us older developers, too!) will jump in a little too deep, too soon and then realize that the scope of the project is beyond them, get discouraged and have trouble finishing it.   I didn`t want that to happen to you.  I like your intelligent writing style and I can`t wait to see what you do with the Ash`mari!


Alysse the Likely


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 19 November 2010, 09:22:39
Duly noted.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 20 November 2010, 02:18:36
Actually, come to think of it, it would be best to make separate entries for the whole religion, it's individual deities, and the Ash'mari Vir'tog. That way, I don't have to try to fit every little detail into one entry, and I don't bite off more than I can chew all at once.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 28 November 2010, 11:22:33
Alexandre, typically, it makes it easier for all concerned if you put what you put into your most recent post in this thread into the first one of the thread, much like with CDs over in the rping side of the site, and then just make a brief note telling us you're looking for comments.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 28 November 2010, 13:30:40
Alexandre, typically, it makes it easier for all concerned if you put what you put into your most recent post in this thread into the first one of the thread, much like with CDs over in the rping side of the site, and then just make a brief note telling us you're looking for comments.

Sorry if I confused you there. I actually put up the pencil icon to let people know I'm still working on the entry. And yes, I do see why I would need to put all of that in the first post, and I'll go ahead and do that now. Thanks Dek.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 28 November 2010, 14:42:29
Quote
I would advise against creating an entirely new pantheon of gods at this time. It is tempting, but perhaps instead take the Kuglimz pantheon and twist them into something far darker and violent. It gives a consistent picture overall of the tribes' fall into something opposite the proud Kuglimz from which they came.

Looking back at your initial comments, I do hope you are okay with the direction that this entry has taken according to my volition.

By the way, everyone, I have finished with my work on the entry and am now ready for comments.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 07 December 2010, 16:03:20
Well, it's been the better part of two weeks, so I thought I'd bump this thread to see if anyone has any time to keep this entry going.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 07 December 2010, 17:18:53
Alexandre, a short feed back only for ow, I'm a bit busy.

Overall it looks good! :)

I understood that this should go into the entry of this tribe itself - then you don't need the headings like prevalence etc, otherwise you have more headings than text.

It is described a bit lop-sided (?), not even black and white, just black. You are describing these people as utter bad with not much hope for living. I know, this is laid out in the tribe's entry, but this entry is old and maybe you could bring there something more sophisticated in. The connection to the Diorye'oleal is only loose, no hint, that they are responsible for that twisted tribe or why, apart from holding them as slaves. There is not much of the Kuglimz ancestry left.

Don't misunderstand me, this tribe is the dark brother of the Kuglimz and it has to have dark, bloody habits and customs, but now I see only the worst possible scenario. You can only show the shadow, if there is somewhere light.

Now these people are outright evil, but I would like to see, where from this comes and why.

You don't need to expand on the amount of stuff you have here (the number of words), that's enough, just twist it a bit ;)


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 08 December 2010, 01:23:20
Hello, Alexandre!

Since the Ashmari are distantly connected to the Kuglimz people, I'd like to see some similarity.  Perhaps you could add in the All-Father and All-Mother as the parents of your three gods?  You could say that they had three sons, who became the gods you describe.  But the presence of a female goddess is VERY important in the Kuglimz religious beliefs, so I can't see her role being extinguished completely like this.  I think of the Ashmari religious beliefs  as being like a cult based very loosely on the

Just a bit of background here:

Family and tribe is of the primal importance to the Kuglimz peoples, whether nomadic or not.  The mother is seen as being the heart of the family, for she is the life-giver, the child-bearer.   Thus Lier'tyan, the All-Mother, is a crucial figure for them.  You can change her nature, make her a "darker" goddess (a good RL example might be the Spartan mothers, who would tell their sons departing for war to "come home with your shield or on it!", ( i.e. I'd rather see you come home dead than dishonoured.)  But I don't think you should eliminate her or Sur'tyan, the All-father either. If you put them in as the parents of your three, they can quickly be relegated to a minor role without being completely wiped out.

What do you think?  Is that workable?


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 08 December 2010, 03:16:13
I agree with Alysse. I had advised before not to create an entirely new pantheon, but to base the gods on the Kuglimz'. I think others have said it too.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 08 December 2010, 09:34:19
All right. So it's back to the drawing board, then.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 14 December 2010, 14:59:50
In the new light I set it in (which I made my new alterations in green), it is assumed from the context that the All Mother and All Father both condone and support the behavior of the three lesser gods (seeing as they do preside over them and Sur'tran is a providential figure who rewards them with life for complying with the lesser gods), so I think I reinterpreted it as requested.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 December 2010, 20:18:53
Alexandre, sorry, but in my opinion that does not fit.

Somebody who is called All-mother and All-father would not condone or support the three lesser gods. This does not fit how they are described. You should not add more attributes to those two old gods, change them considerably, if not really necessary, and I don't see you revising these two right now.

I would more go in the direction, that the Ash'mari feel, that those two gods have abandoned them and therefore searched for somebody else, or they changed their old belief around somehow. Without creating an entirely new pantheon.

Maybe you could go another way. What if they still belief in the existence of those Kuglimz gods, but don't venerate them, don't worship them?

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They fell away from their gods Sur'tyan and Lier'tyan  and started to worship bloodthirsty gods.

These gods could be originated from dark elven leaders, without many godly attributes, but more like overly strong elves? Maybe they could even die, and be replaced by other, younger gods? Just an idea to not get again a pantheon, just this time an evil one.

 
I fear a major rewrite and rethinkingis necessary, Alexandre, but wait till you start for Azhira and Alysse.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 14 December 2010, 22:19:24
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I would more go in the direction, that the Ash'mari feel, that those two gods have abandoned them and therefore searched for somebody else, or they changed their old belief around somehow. Without creating an entirely new pantheon.

With all due respect, it feels as if you have suggested this based upon preference, rather than necessity. In doing what I did, I twisted their perspective on the All Mother and All Father, as requested by Azhira (I believe), and wrapped everything into a neat package. While it may be necessary for me to provide detail at length about them (just like I did with the three lesser gods), it does not appear to be necessary to divorce them from the Ash'mari other than for a patronage of one person's artistic license or another person's artistic license.

So, to simplify what I just said:

I can see why you feel that way, and value your preference because you are certainly a more experienced Santharian developer than myself. However, I do not see the logic behind your request, other than that you may want one of those alterations to be made according to your preference, or artistic license (and I am not saying that you are being pushy or overly unreasonable).

Now, there is only one part of the original entry that states that the Ash'mari deviated from worshiping the All Mother and All Father (the passage you quoted). Is this why it is necessary to divorce them from the All Mother and All Father?

Edit: On second thought, our problem here may stem from the fact that I haven't given them the same treatment as the three lesser gods (with their own at-length sections), and thus you assumed that we would have to go off of the original entries on those two rather than an Ash'mari interpretation, as suggested?

Moreover, I don't intend to point fingers or be argumentative. I would simply like a clarification about what exactly the issue is here (you see, it may be more my fault than yours, in that I didn't fully comprehend your last comments).


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 December 2010, 23:35:42
That was a proposal, Alexandre. And as Isaid, wait for Azhira and Alysse.

Of course one could argue, that the Ash'mari are now a different tribe and that they see the Allmother and Allfather this way. (But it is not a derivation from what we have, at least not in the line they were meant to be. You added there something.)

Drogo is not longer here to say his opinion, but I would be quite annoyed, if somebody would twist my Baveras in a direction which is not in the line of what I had intended for her, even if it would be a 'dark human tribe' who did that. Or some evil pirates.

---> Azhira, Alysse


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 15 December 2010, 05:01:54
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Drogo is not longer here to say his opinion, but I would be quite annoyed, if somebody would twist my Baveras in a direction which is not in the line of what I had intended for her, even if it would be a 'dark human tribe' who did that. Or some evil pirates.

I thought the objective here was to twist the material towards Drogo's entry.

But yes, I do wish he was around to have his say. Probably all of us would really like to hear his opinion about now.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 15 December 2010, 08:33:36
Actually, though I haven't the time to read it in detail, I do think this is better.  With perhaps a few minor tweaks, I think it could work.  Perhaps the names could suggest some of the Dark elven influence.  It is likely that the Ashmari tribe does not speak "pure" Kuglimz'seitre anymore--the language will have changed and degraded, probably blended with some of the elven terms, etc--they will probably speak what we might consider to be a very distorted dialect.  But that's a minor point and can wait for our elven language experts.  I'd like to hear Azhira's perspective on your revisions too.

I meant to re-read the previous entries on the site so I can get a better feel for what the the original developer might have wanted.  But what with preparing for the Christmas rush at work, trying to arrange three family get-togethers and being hospitalized for something called epiploic appendagitis, I've been a little rushed for time.  I'll try to stay on top of this a bit better.


Alysse


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 15 December 2010, 13:40:24
If you have that much on your plate, Alysse, I wouldn't give myself a second thought until everything is taken care of.

By the way, thanks for your help so far, everyone.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 19 December 2010, 15:24:06
The better part of a week has passed, so I'm guessing we won't be able to hear from Azhira this time. So, if you folks who have been part of the process here would have a final say (and either lay down the law or agree to some of my ideas), I'd appreciate one last judgment call so that I can get to working on this entry again.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 20 December 2010, 10:16:24
Well, I've read over what you have and I'd like to give you the go-ahead to keep working on this.  There will be plenty of opportunity to change and adjust things as needed, but right now there is not a lot of material to comment on.  You obviously have some ideas about where you want to go with these, and I'd like to hear them. You're not proposing to change the Kuglimz religion, after all, but to develop a sort of cult version very loosely based on it.  So I think that will work. 


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 20 December 2010, 10:55:33
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Well, I've read over what you have and I'd like to give you the go-ahead to keep working on this.

Okay, I'll get to describing this new version of the All Mother and All Father, then.

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You obviously have some ideas about where you want to go with these, and I'd like to hear them. You're not proposing to change the Kuglimz religion, after all, but to develop a sort of cult version very loosely based on it.  So I think that will work.

Precisely. So, when I describe them and their relationship with the three lesser gods in detail, I'll just have to see what you think about my ideas.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 20 December 2010, 11:50:33
Sorry for my lack of comment. I don't have any solid arguments against what you are trying to do here, Alex. So I am with Alysse in that you can go ahead and continue. Changes can be made as you work if we find something to flag. New religions are fun to do especially with little developed tribes like the Ash'mari. My To'ava'yarna religion was something completely new, but not something unique on its own, because it will eventually connect with Antislar and Osther-Oc religions.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 21 December 2010, 07:58:23
Sorry for my lack of comment. I don't have any solid arguments against what you are trying to do here, Alex. So I am with Alysse in that you can go ahead and continue. Changes can be made as you work if we find something to flag. New religions are fun to do especially with little developed tribes like the Ash'mari. My To'ava'yarna religion was something completely new, but not something unique on its own, because it will eventually connect with Antislar and Osther-Oc religions.

Ya, and from what I've seen the folks around the Mists don't have much in the way of developed religions either. I thought I'd zero in on that after this.

So, I'll get to work on this soon, and we'll see where to go from there.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 21 December 2010, 23:30:29
You are only writing the addition to the tribe entry, not an extra submission on the religion itself, or am I wrong here? for the tribe entry itself it hasn't be so long and doesn't need the subtitles like  Prevalence and Belief outlines. It should more be like a summary of an religion entry.

I know, Alysse and Azhira think how you translate Lier'tyan (the All-Mother) and Sur'tyan (the All Father) over in the new religion, I think it is not ok.

The entry clearly states, that :

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They fell away from their gods Sur'tyan and Lier'tyan and started to worship bloodthirsty gods.

For that means, that they do not exist anymore in their pantheon.

To be still in the tradition of the Kuglimz, though distinct from them, you could transfer other things like :

They have two major gods - one for personal things, one for the conservation / destruction of the world.

Or one for conservation, one for destruction

Then additional ten lesser gods.


Alex, so far I miss in the entry a kind of ,need‘, ,imperative‘, I don‘t know the right word for it:

So far your religion could be placed to every malicious tribe. But why is it the Ash‘marii religion? This is a special tribe and needs a special treatment. Especially here it is necessary to think along the needs of the tribe and not to allow the thoughts to run in any direction. 

Why are your gods as depicted and named as they are?

What I miss most : I do not see the impact of the dark elves.The Ashmarii are now as they are, because they came under the rule and influence of the dark elves. But how does this manifest itself?

I hope I did not disturb you too much. ;)

Don‘t write too much though, not for the addition to the tribe entry. If you want to do more, do an own religious entry.

And no need to hit me now  :grin: I'm gone and away for the next week anyway!  :P


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 22 December 2010, 06:20:40
You are only writing the addition to the tribe entry, not an extra submission on the religion itself, or am I wrong here? for the tribe entry itself it hasn't be so long and doesn't need the subtitles like  Prevalence and Belief outlines. It should more be like a summary of an religion entry.

I know, Alysse and Azhira think how you translate Lier'tyan (the All-Mother) and Sur'tyan (the All Father) over in the new religion, I think it is not ok.

The entry clearly states, that :

For that means, that they do not exist anymore in their pantheon.

To be still in the tradition of the Kuglimz, though distinct from them, you could transfer other things like :

They have two major gods - one for personal things, one for the conservation / destruction of the world.

Or one for conservation, one for destruction

Then additional ten lesser gods.


Alex, so far I miss in the entry a kind of ,need‘, ,imperative‘, I don‘t know the right word for it:

So far your religion could be placed to every malicious tribe. But why is it the Ash‘marii religion? This is a special tribe and needs a special treatment. Especially here it is necessary to think along the needs of the tribe and not to allow the thoughts to run in any direction.  

Why are your gods as depicted and named as they are?

What I miss most : I do not see the impact of the dark elves.The Ashmarii are now as they are, because they came under the rule and influence of the dark elves. But how does this manifest itself?

I hope I did not disturb you too much. ;)

Don‘t write too much though, not for the addition to the tribe entry. If you want to do more, do an own religious entry.

And no need to hit me now  :grin: I'm gone and away for the next week anyway!  :P


You're right, I've yet to involve the dark elves much in this, other than to pin them down as minor deities. I'll have to think about that, but I have to say that it doesn't necessarily have to factor in. Think about it this way: Why would the dark elves have any concern for the religious beliefs of the Ash'mari? Wouldn't they be docile enough after a display of magic? Would the dark elves really interest themselves in spending time trying to shape the barbarian's religious thinking?

And given your comments about Lier'tyan and Sur'tyan, I think I might just rename them and give them different titles with the Ash'mari. That way I can be more faithful to the original entry (which you pointed out as stating that they don't worship Lier'tyan and Sur'tyan) and still provide an element (the two greater gods who served as king and queen before the burning night) with which Santharian enthusiasts can draw parallels between Ash'mari and other Kuglimz folk.

Edit: So, what say you other folks?


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 23 December 2010, 11:27:12
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So far your religion could be placed to every malicious tribe. But why is it the Ash‘marii religion? This is a special tribe and needs a special treatment. Especially here it is necessary to think along the needs of the tribe and not to allow the thoughts to run in any direction.

Why are your gods as depicted and named as they are?

Ash'fa (I used the entry on Kuglimz'seitre to name the gods, and named him Ash'fa, because apparently it means "fierce man" in their tongue, or something to that extent) presents the reason why they want to spill the maximum possible amount of blood in battle:

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The Ash'mari viewpoint on warfare and the need of libations of blood to the soil restricts what weaponry the barbarians use. No bows or slings are used as the outpouring of blood with such wounds are not enough. Thrown spears and axes are the extent of the ranged weapons used. For close combat the most common weapon is the axe, this is for no other reason then the cuts of the axe allow the most blood to flow and thus appeases their gods even more.

I made the god Mari'put (meaning "blood/bane wolf" in their tongue) to pick up on the undercurrent of respect they have for the wolves of Hovel Frond, and give a reason why they don't wear armor in battle, often don't wear clothing, and never use shields:

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Clothing is actually very minimal, which is surprising given the climate. Warriors when at home or on normal duties are thought to wear untanned fur as use as loinclothes, boots, and cloaks. When in combat many of the same warriors wear nothing, rather giving up any protection of clothing for the protection of their gods.

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Shields are viewed much as clothing in battle is. It is nothing more then a way to take the gods favor away from you by insulting their ability to protect you. If one of the gods wants you to die no matter what amount of armor you wear it will do no good.

Fau'taug (meaning "feasting man" in their tongue) represents the tone I got from these entries:

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Taug'put ("Blood Feast")
This is a one day event that occurs at different times for different warriors. After the first person they kill, they take the body and proceed to slice it open more. This allows them to take their victim's blood and drench their naked form in it. They then proceed to go into isolation for one day and allow the blood to dry upon themselves. This is viewed as the rite of manhood, for by allowing it to dry upon them it has soaked into themselves giving them all of the powers their victim possessed. Many a young warrior falls to an older one in an attempt to take a strong warrior's blood for his first kill as a stronger foe is bound to have stronger blood.

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The Ash'mystrume ("Battle Wolf") is the head of the Ash'mari. He makes all of the decisions as far as the raiding and general practices of the tribe are concerned. Any male can challenge the Ash'mystrume to physical combat, and whomever comes out the victor is the new leader. It is not rare for the elven ruler of the Castle of Darkness to get annoyed with the current leader and simply kill him. Several men who believe they should then lead fight it out and the victor presents himself to the castle as the new Ash'mystrume.

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Animals are plentiful in the area and so food stores are well kept, though it is not too unusual to go a few days without eating. They make up for this by gorging themselves whenever there is an abundance of food. The little grain and vegetable are gotten only when a raid on one of the Kuglimz villages have gone successfully.

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The only well known occupation of the Ash'mari is that of warrior. They seem to be broken up into different categories based upon the number of kills they have. If one has killed more people he tends to go into every raiding party and every war party. Those with less kills get to go far less often. Those with no kills usually have to kill someone with many kills to earn a place in a raiding party. It is thought that the men with few or no kills are used to hunt.

They gorge when food is plentiful, and fight over leadership, respect, and raiding rights, so I assumed that they must fight over goods as well.

Now, I see that you feel that I'm pinning them down too much as savage and completely brutal/evil. Here are some parts of the entry that actually support my views on them:

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The Ash'mari ("Rabid Wolf Tribe") were once of the Kuglimz, but were in time corrupted and then subjugated to the Diorye'oleal. They have little will of their own, rather being used as the martial force of the dark elves. Their reputation as intelligent savages is well earned and they take pleasure in that reputation.

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While this is not true of the Kuglimz or the Kanapans, it most certainly is true of the Ash'mari, and all of the stories told to frighten children are most often true. Generations of use as the Diorye'oleal's rabid hounds have bred out all compulsions of mercy and honor. While not as cruel as their masters, they are certainly the most bloodthirsty of men. Even the orcs of the area have respect for the visciousness of the Ash'mari.

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The Ash'marian coat of arms is a skeletal human skull with an iron axe sunk into it. This is surrounded by a circle of black twisted thorns. The Ash'mari being a very literal people have made their coat of arms such as well. The skull is representative of their foes, which is just about everyone, the axe represents the Ash'mari themselves, while the circle of thorns represents their subjugation to the thorn throne of the Diorye'oleal. As banners are rarely used, actual items are affixed to long poles so that it forms an intimidating standard.

Everything we know about their behavior (brutal), influences (dark elves), and standard (axe driven into a real human skull), points to them being violent and harsh. Just about everything in the entry that points to them either being good or bad, violent or docile and thoughtful, points to them being bad tempered and violent. They fight for the right to govern, the right to be a man, and the right to go raiding.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 31 December 2010, 09:35:02
8 days seemed like an appropriate time to see if there was any update to be had. If that's too abrupt, let me know. If RL has you caught up, it's the holidays after all and I hope everyone here has a good time during these few special weeks.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 07 January 2011, 14:40:33
And now another week has passed, I believe. Any information whatsoever would be helpful, and if I'm just being pushy, lay down the law to me. I'm just not sure exactly how things work on this side of the boards.

Also, what with the new year and the awards being decided upon, I can understand why it takes up some time. The same thing happens on the RP boards as well.

Not to mention, Talia said that she would be gone for the next week after she last posted in this thread. That was why I waited 8 days at first, and waited another week until now.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 07 January 2011, 17:46:06
Sorry Alexandre, I know nothing about these guys, so I probably don't have anything useful to suggest with regards to the entry.

It happened like this at this time last year as well, Alexandre. I really think we all just need to wait a bit longer. Talia said in response to a post I made last week that she still has family with her, and that discussion on the questions I raised could be restarted in about 2 weeks (I think from about the 14th). So maybe give her another week or so. Azhira might be caught up with family or finding herself new work, although I have seen her pop onto the boards briefly in the last few weeks, and Artimidor is spending most of his time on his work for the next Nepris module. So, I'm not aware of anyone else with specific interest/knowledge of the Ash'Mari men/their religious practices ... although Alysse might be a possibility.

Would there be another entry you could work on while you're waiting for responses?



Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 08 January 2011, 10:37:39
No, I think I'll just wait. If anything, I didn't mean to seem impatient. It was just an inquiry as to whether or not an update could be given.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 08 January 2011, 11:39:48
I didn't think you sounded impatient :)


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 19 January 2011, 07:19:24
Well, it's nigh on two weeks since Dek and I had a chat. Are you around, Talia?


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 19 January 2011, 10:30:28
Not officially yet.  At her daughter's, I believe.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 21 January 2011, 07:52:29
At my parent's :) don't know, if my daughter could stand me this long ;)

Alexandre, as soon as I have voted for the best masterwork (and reread them before), I will look at what you have now!  That may take a few days though stll, for I cannot be here too long each day. Shout for Azhira, I saw her also!


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 23 January 2011, 11:39:52
At my parent's :) don't know, if my daughter could stand me this long ;)

Alexandre, as soon as I have voted for the best masterwork (and reread them before), I will look at what you have now!  That may take a few days though stll, for I cannot be here too long each day. Shout for Azhira, I saw her also!

Cool. It's good to hear from you again. I hope the last month has been as fun for you as it has been for me.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 24 January 2011, 00:53:49
No, I think I'll just wait. If anything, I didn't mean to seem impatient. It was just an inquiry as to whether or not an update could be given.

New religions are not quickly approved, let alone new North religions. Between Talia and myself, we are busy, but not absent. I will try to comment this week to move this along.  :thumbup:

Talia and Alysse are quite busy with their family commitments, while I am overwhelmed with my job/move situation this year. Altario has been in and out lately too.

Sorry if the North experts are not around as much lately...I know its frustrating.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 24 January 2011, 12:52:56
New religions are not quickly approved, let alone new North religions. Between Talia and myself, we are busy, but not absent. I will try to comment this week to move this along.  :thumbup:

Talia and Alysse are quite busy with their family commitments, while I am overwhelmed with my job/move situation this year. Altario has been in and out lately too.

Sorry if the North experts are not around as much lately...I know its frustrating.

Time's not an issue. However, I appreciate the details and hope you are blessed with stability soon.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 25 January 2011, 01:26:05
Note: This is only a part to give you something to do, I have other commitments also and this theme is not my favourite one (too brutal) ;)

Ok, let‘s see again what you have: :)

Generally - skip some f your headings (appearance, importance), as I said already, not every two sentences need one.

PREVALENCE- Rather than being based upon pious worship of token deities, as it customarily is with other religions, the Ash'mari religion is more of a derivation for  (of?) their culture than it is a pursuit of sanctity and greater knowledge. There is no class of the religious elite, no building designated for worship, and only a few rituals are done on occasion to substantiate their religion, which include the Taug'fa'yale ("Burning Man Feast"), Taug'put ("Blood Feast"), and Taug'dirg ("Leader's Feast"). are described later.

BELIEF OUTLINES- From a philosophical standpoint, they don't believe in anything other than unadulterated violence. There are no relative values such as good and bad, and they don't hold anything of a hope in their gods that there is something to look forward to.

I don‘t get , why you need to mention that view from a „philosophical standpoint“, just state it - no?
What are the consequences out of this „behaviour“ (sorry, sometimes the correct word flies me)

Likewise, their gods are characters that represent certain values they are looking after in order to survive.  

What are these values? More precise, please, don‘t let us guess

Moreover, rather than thinking about their enemies during battle, they look to the gods to determine whether or not they live or die, and feel that if they meet their demands with feral hunting, violent war making, and greedy pillaging, that they can live longer.

I think you need to express a bit clearer, where to you are aiming.
Tells us, that they do  not fear to be killed by their enemies, as it is not in the power of the enemies to decide about who will live or die, but that the gods decide, who will live or die. So, they try to get the benevolence of the gods through feral hunting.. Etc.. But what about skill?

If anything, however, they are more immediately concerned with their masters: the Diorye'oleal elves. Because of their impressive feats of magic, the Ash'mari consider them lesser gods, and hang on their every word. When the Dioyre'oleal send them to war, the Ash'mari relish the act. And when the Diorye'oleal delegate their slaves to do manual labor, the Ash'mari relish the act equally.

The last paragraph is not really connected to the rest of your submission. You wanted (I hope) to fulfil my request to link the elves and the humans tighter together, to explain that the way of live of the humans is a consequence of their subjugation under the elves, but I see nothing here.

THE ASH'MARI PANTHEON-



Seitre'otorm (meaning "tongue like snake") represents fertility, and manipulation. She illustrates to young Ash'mari that womenfolk can be like a two-edged blade.

Don‘t throw the facts at us like this, use whole sentences, please. „ S. is (rank?) the most .. Goddess of the Ash‘mari pantheon. She represents.. The meaning of her name illustrates...

Ian'fa (not a name like we might think of it, but a statement saying "we are descendants of the man") represents divine providence. While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct, Ian'fa is the reason that they live as long as they get to live. He is attributed with the creation and delegation of the three lesser gods over the Ash'mari.

Who is who? Where are the three lesser gods? Name the most important god first, or the first one (creation?) Your sentence „ While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct“ is a bit disturbing. Do you really mean, a Ashmari is killed by the gods for what? Kind conduct? Is this something bad then? Yes, it is clear from the fact, that they strive for brutality etc, but do the gods intervene on such a low level? ***

Brackets are evil!


Ash'fa (the fierce man) represents war and conquest, and demands that much blood be spilled in order to quell his wrath.

Example


Mari'put (the blood/bane wolf) is the feral wolf who kills his enemies without clothing or shield, and demands that they hunt their prey in the same manner.

Do Ash‘mari battle naked?


***
I still think, this concept is too black and white, it has no greys in it. And it would probably not work. Their have to be enclaves, where people can have a little bit of trust, and be it in the family, or with close relatives. If we assume, that children have the same psychological needs as earthen ones, then we have to say, they would rarely survive or be able to propagate.

I would really love to see here some greys as well, to make this society a bit more believable, even if the tribe entry has to be twisted slightly. I would not want to cement that with religion.

I hope I could help you a bit, so that you can work from here.

Next time it is Azhira's call! ;)


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 25 January 2011, 08:43:50
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Generally - skip some f your headings (appearance, importance), as I said already, not every two sentences need one.

I was thinking of making this into separate entries just like there are for the other Kuglimz, but I agree now that this should be just one entry. I'll cut out some headings and rework some of it so that it flows better (because without those headings this entry now lacks cohesion).

Quote
I don‘t get , why you need to mention that view from a „philosophical standpoint“, just state it - no?
What are the consequences out of this „behaviour“ (sorry, sometimes the correct word flies me)

First: That is just my writing style. It would feel unnatural for me not to identify the topic offhand like that.

Second: It's a religion, so I don't necessarily see why I have to explain how this affects the people. I do understand that there must be adverse effects (especially with children), but the Ash'Mari are slaves who live a violent lifestyle. So, I would be going against the entry if I were to try and squeeze in any of this uncharacteristic nicety you want me to put in there. I thought I had pointed that out nicely whenever I quoted several parts of the entry and did a play by play for you (although that post was a month back before things slowed down a bit here, so you may not have seen it).

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What are these values? More precise, please, don‘t let us guess

Okay, I'll give a small explanation to supplant the questions of the readers until they get to the sections designated to the different gods.

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I think you need to express a bit clearer, where to you are aiming.
Tells us, that they do  not fear to be killed by their enemies, as it is not in the power of the enemies to decide about who will live or die, but that the gods decide, who will live or die. So, they try to get the benevolence of the gods through feral hunting.. Etc.. But what about skill?

It doesn't say anything about skill in the entry, and I don't see why I need to make an explanation of their fighting style here. I simply noted how their religion affects combat, because of what was said in the entry.

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The last paragraph is not really connected to the rest of your submission. You wanted (I hope) to fulfil my request to link the elves and the humans tighter together, to explain that the way of live of the humans is a consequence of their subjugation under the elves, but I see nothing here.

I'll think about that and try to meet your request better.

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Don‘t throw the facts at us like this, use whole sentences, please. „ S. is (rank?) the most .. Goddess of the Ash‘mari pantheon. She represents.. The meaning of her name illustrates...

I don't understand what you are saying there, which can be my fault and not yours. Please clarify this bit for me.

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Who is who? Where are the three lesser gods? Name the most important god first, or the first one (creation?) Your sentence „ While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct“ is a bit disturbing. Do you really mean, a Ashmari is killed by the gods for what? Kind conduct? Is this something bad then? Yes, it is clear from the fact, that they strive for brutality etc, but do the gods intervene on such a low level? ***

Brackets are evil!

This also seemed a bit sporadic and didn't make sense to me. I'm sorry but I have a hard enough time thinking about what to say and thinking about what other people say under normal circumstances, so I simply can't decipher these kinds of comments (however much I appreciate them).

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Do Ash‘mari battle naked?

More often than not, according to the entry.

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I still think, this concept is too black and white, it has no greys in it. And it would probably not work. Their have to be enclaves, where people can have a little bit of trust, and be it in the family, or with close relatives. If we assume, that children have the same psychological needs as earthen ones, then we have to say, they would rarely survive or be able to propagate.

I would really love to see here some greys as well, to make this society a bit more believable, even if the tribe entry has to be twisted slightly. I would not want to cement that with religion.

I hope I could help you a bit, so that you can work from here.

Next time it is Azhira's call! ;)

You've been helpful, and I hope I can explain more clearly why they are the way they are in the entry. I do realize that it seems unrealistic right now, so I want to be thorough and tie it in to the entry well, in order for their extreme tendencies to make sense.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 25 January 2011, 09:25:25
Alexandre, I'll try to explain part of what I think that Talia is asking you to do.

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Don‘t throw the facts at us like this, use whole sentences, please. „ S. is (rank?) the most .. Goddess of the Ash‘mari pantheon. She represents.. The meaning of her name illustrates...

and the part of your entry to which Talia is speaking about ...

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Seitre'otorm (meaning "tongue like snake") represents fertility, and manipulation. She illustrates to young Ash'mari that womenfolk can be like a two-edged blade.

I believe that she is basically asking you to expand on this ... to write more than two sentences and to write in full complete sentences, in other words give us flesh around the bones you have already provided us, basically make her into a rich and colourful deity like the deities already existing on site. Now, I'm not saying a complete entry on her, but more information than what you've got, please.

Next one from Talia ...

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Who is who? Where are the three lesser gods? Name the most important god first, or the first one (creation?) Your sentence „ While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct“ is a bit disturbing. Do you really mean, a Ashmari is killed by the gods for what? Kind conduct? Is this something bad then? Yes, it is clear from the fact, that they strive for brutality etc, but do the gods intervene on such a low level? ***

Brackets are evil!

Seems to apply to the following part from your original entry

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Ian'fa (not a name like we might think of it, but a statement saying "we are descendants of the man") represents divine providence. While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct, Ian'fa is the reason that they live as long as they get to live. He is attributed with the creation and delegation of the three lesser gods over the Ash'mari.

Ok, you've mentioned 'the three lesser gods' here, but haven't told us who they are! Talia is asking that you name them here. She has also suggested that you name the gods in order of importance at some place, so that we all know who they are ... as is the case in the roleplaying side, you know what your trying to say here, we don't ... explain it ... give us more details in other words.

Talia has also asked what you mean by the statement 'While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct', and wants you to be clearer with what you mean ... perhaps once again with an example of it.

Finally, the 'brackets is evil' statement is basically saying, if possible don't use brackets in your writing, instead try to write it out as part of the sentences.

Remember, Alexandre,  various entries which are on site are being reworked and updated ... so if you need to, some changes to this tribe that fits in with what you are wanting to do are possible ... I'm not suggesting that you make them into a race of people that goes skipping through the forest, composing beautiful music and collecting wild flowers, after all, Azhira made her ghostling Brownies to fulfil that role <G> :evil: ... but if you wanted to make some changes to aspects of the tribe, it might be possible to do so, you'd just have to run it past area/tribe experts first.

I hope that helps somewhat, and I hope I explained what Talia was trying to say correctly.

Dek


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 25 January 2011, 09:57:33
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Ok, you've mentioned 'the three lesser gods' here, but haven't told us who they are! Talia is asking that you name them here. She has also suggested that you name the gods in order of importance at some place, so that we all know who they are ... as is the case in the roleplaying side, you know what your trying to say here, we don't ... explain it ... give us more details in other words.

Talia has also asked what you mean by the statement 'While the lesser gods kill the Ash'mari for kind conduct', and wants you to be clearer with what you mean ... perhaps once again with an example of it.

Finally, the 'brackets is evil' statement is basically saying, if possible don't use brackets in your writing, instead try to write it out as part of the sentences.

Actually, I don't want to level the accusation that you guys aren't reading the whole entry, but I clearly took care of that issue in the sections designated to the different gods. Here it is:

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For Ash'fa:

Ash'fa translates from the Ash'mari tongue into "the fierce man". Together with Mari'put and Fau'taug, Ash'fa is one from the pantheon of war gods worshiped by the Ash'mari barbarians. After the burning night (the fall of the Mynian Empire in 1649 b.S.), Ash'fa took a leading role in the war bands, and along with Mari'put and Fau'taug, he subjugated Dirg'mari for his own glorification.

APPEARANCE- Being a particularly awesome visage, Ash'fa stands at a height of 2 peds 7 fores, and is made of burnished iron and bronze, sparkling and still hot to the touch. His humanoid body is featureless, aside from the slits he has for nasal openings, eyes, and lips.

And, similar to a waterfall wasting away water into an empty abyss, Ash'fa is portrayed drinking tankard after tankard of blood perched upon his granite throne, far above the trees of Hovel Frond.

IMPORTANCE- High atop the trees, sitting upon his granite throne, Ash'fa exhorts and coerces the Ash'mari to spill more and more blood for his enjoyment. So greedy is he, for fresh blood, that he punishes  the barbarians (most often with disease and various political reasons for death) if they don't spill as much blood as they can while pitched in battle.

For Mari'put-

Mari'put translates from the Ash'mari tongue into "the blood\bane wolf". Together with Ash'fa and Fau'taug, Mari'put is one from the pantheon of war gods worshiped by the Ash'mari barbarians. After the burning night (the fall of the Mynian Empire in 1649 b.S.), Ash'fa took a leading role in the hunting parties, and along with Mari'put and Fau'taug, he subjugated Dirg'mari for his own glorification.

APPEARANCE- There is no worldly conception of how he looks other than that his kin, the wolves of Hovel Frond, are each lesser likenesses of him and his feral predilection. He has never made an appearance in the forest, and the Ash'mari suppose that Mari'put is off hunting in the great void that they overheard their masters speaking of.

IMPORTANCE- Off hunting alone and unclothed in the great void, ripping his prey apart and parading their entrails and private parts about, Ash'fa demands that the Ash'mari hunt like his wolves. If any Ash'mari were to wear armor or protect himself with a shield during combat, he would be doomed to die from the very same blade he wants protection from. So, the moral of the story is that they had better get thick hides and get them quick.

For Fau'taug-

Fau'taug translates from the Ash'mari tongue into "the feasting man". Together with Ash'fa and Mari'put, Fau'taug is one from the pantheon of war gods worshiped by the Ash'mari barbarians. After the burning night (the fall of the Mynian Empire in 1649 b.S.), Fau'taug used every means necessary, from freshly forged blades and hidden pikes around his dwelling place, to accrue more and more plunder and protect his own goods from everyone else in the tribe, and along with Mari'put and Fau'taug, he subjugated Dirg'mari for his own glorification.

APPEARANCE- Manifesting himself as a gluttonous mass of flesh and hair, his humanity is barely discernible underneath the folds of fat that dominate his figure. Fau'taug is often depicted as trying to appropriate any little earring, dagger, cup, eating utensil, uneaten scrap of meat, or trinket he can find in the hands of an unwary barbarian.

IMPORTANCE- Fau'taug slinks across the forest floor, his oily flesh masking the noise of his movement, and steals without reservation or inhibition. At the least, he demands that a proper fight be had every time the barbarians consider what to do with the spoils of their conquests.

So I clarified what kind of conduct was expected, and gave lengthy descriptions of each lesser god.

I was then starting to do the same for the two greater gods, and planned to do it with the elves as well.

And lastly, yes I will try to cut down on the parentheses.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Deklitch Hardin on 25 January 2011, 10:15:47
I never stated I read the entire entry at that point, Alexandre. I was only trying to help you understand what I thought Talia was asking for, and I was explaining what I thought she was meaning. I'll keep out of it in the future.

Dek


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 27 January 2011, 23:24:59
What I'd mostly like to see here is more.  More details, fuller descriptions.  Most of what you have seems to be following the original entry, which is good, but you need to flesh it out a bit more.  I think that might also help with clarifying what you intend.  The more you give us, the better we can understand where you are going and want to go with this.  Talia makes a good point about "more grey areas", but I think if you can fill in your outline a bit more, then we can make more helpful suggestions (I hope they're helpful, anyway!) about what you might want to add/subtract/modify.  If you need some help with research, we can assist there as well.  At this point, I don't want to suggest that you cut or change too much--those things can always be done later if desired.  The most important thing is giving us more to work with so that we can critique more effectively.

It's nearly impossible to write TOO much here--some of our longer entries go for pages.  Not that you need pages here, just more detail.  I think you have some good concepts here and I'd like to see them developed a bit further. 

I hope this is helpful.  I'll try and look in more often as things calm down and we get back to a regular schedule.

Alysse


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 27 January 2011, 23:33:49
Alysse, the problem here is though, that it is an addition to a tribe entry, not an entry about the religion itself, so it should not be longer than rest of the tribe entry .

Alexandre, you could do a religion entry and then summarize it for the tribe entry - maybe this way it is easier to get the essence of  the religion part for the tribe entry, describe there the most important , but deeper rooting (then now)  things and leave the rest out?


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 28 January 2011, 04:16:55
Actually, I was under the assumption that it was an entry of it's own, on religion. At least, that's what I thought we discussed at the start.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 28 January 2011, 05:12:03
Had a closer look at this as well, Alexandre, so here are a few notes:

As far as I can see this is planned as an entry of its own. Actually it's already executed that way with the proper sections pretty much in place, so no problem from my side in this regard. Could use an Overview, though, summarizing the whole thing.

While I get the main outline some things are a bit unexplained, though, at the moment. Always remember that someone who hasn't even heard what the Ash'mari are might stumble upon this entry - so don't forget to mention early on that they are barbarians, where they live and from what they developed and their relationship to the Diorye'oleal elves. And explain the "Burning Night", which also is taken for granted when it is first mentioned. Just to prepare the environment in which you're operating :)

Pantheon: It looks as if the Ash'mari pantheon isn't set in stone, because the Diorye'oleal elves are also worshipped as minor deities, so these might change from time to time. Is the main pantheon also subjected to changes? Values might be different depending on the circumstances of the Ash'mari, and it doesn't look as if they are that organized. So how definite is the pantheon? Are you picking out key Gods in this entry and explain them, are their regional differences, or is it a clearly defined pantheon?

The question of hierarchy is a bit shaky as far as I can see, or not explained enough yet. You mention six Gods, who stand above the Diorye'oleal, who you say are minor deities. All of them? Or only specific ones? What exactly is the position of Ian'fa? As you write "He is attributed with the creation and delegation of the three lesser gods over the Ash'mari." With the lesser Gods do you mean the Diorye'oleal? Three Diorye'oleal "Gods"? Is he the most important God then, as he actually creates three more Gods? These basic things need to be made a bit clearer in the first sections for me!


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 28 January 2011, 07:44:48
What I'm gleaning from this is that you want me to be more specific about what I'm referring to, and you want me to put some of the precedent research into the entry (as in, noting that they are barbarians, explaining in detail their history and how it affects their religion).

I think I've soaked up a lot of what you guys want from me, so I'll get back to work on the entry.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 28 January 2011, 08:28:49
I thought so far, that it should be an addition to the tribe entry - was that not planned in the beginning? Does not the heading still point to that? I can't find the original thread right now though. Why did nobody say something, when I talked about an extra religion entry, that this might be an option, that this should be already that extra religion entry? What I said, that prevalence etc is not necessary here aimed of course at the tribe's addition, not an extra submission.

Ok, if that is an entry in itself and not the addition to the tribe entry ---->  what Alysse said.

I leave this now to Azhira and Alysse, otherwise I get not around with my works.

*waves*

If there any special questions, Alexandre, just bellring me!


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 29 January 2011, 08:38:32
Well, I'm sad to see you go. You've required the clarity from me that I would want someone to prod me to produce.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 06 February 2011, 15:18:36
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Pantheon: It looks as if the Ash'mari pantheon isn't set in stone, because the Diorye'oleal elves are also worshipped as minor deities, so these might change from time to time. Is the main pantheon also subjected to changes? Values might be different depending on the circumstances of the Ash'mari, and it doesn't look as if they are that organized. So how definite is the pantheon? Are you picking out key Gods in this entry and explain them, are their regional differences, or is it a clearly defined pantheon?

Hmmm... Well Arti the Ash'mari are a fairly centralized people, seeing as they are a group of slaves. So I can't imagine why there would be a regional or cultural effect on the religion, that changes it amongst different Ash'mari. I'm pretty open about the issue, though.

As for the rest of it, I'll get to clearing things up.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 February 2011, 05:32:54
Well, that's what I'm asking myself: Are the Ash'mari "centralized" and form a completely consistent group of slaves? Or do the Diorye'oleal mainly use them for their own purposes, trying to suppress everything that gives them identity - like allowing them a religion shared by all the Ash'mari. Or would they more try to separate them, try to counteract everything that could eventually be dangerous for them, intent on shattering their traditions, so that they'd develop in different directions?


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 09 February 2011, 15:42:01
But we have no evidence to go off of here either way, Arti. What is it that you want me to do? I honestly don't feel that the Hidden Wind Elves would have taken enough of an interest in the Ash'mari to manipulate them at that level.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 February 2011, 15:55:28
I'm just posing the question, Alexandre ;) Personally I don't really have a preference.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 10 February 2011, 18:41:52
Ah, I understand Arti. Well, this was my response to the question:

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I honestly don't feel that the Hidden Wind Elves would have taken enough of an interest in the Ash'mari to manipulate them at that level.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 11 October 2011, 09:44:24
Well, I really lost my creative motivation on this subject, and that's why I never got back to working on it. If someone else would like to take over with the material I've presented, or start on the subject from scratch, go ahead. I've got other things in mind now.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Alexandre Scriabin on 30 January 2013, 17:03:30
Well, I've gone back over it and I still have the nagging urge to complete what I started. I feel my writing style has changed and matured a bit since then, and for starters I want to work on areas where I may have sounded obtuse. Also, I plan to go back over all of the comments I've been given and respond to them better with my edits. Mulling things over, the whole idea makes more sense now to me, and I think that I can make a better effort at providing greyness, connectivity and explanation for readers who haven't read the tribe entry, etc.

In short, I mean to pick it up again. But I have plenty of comments already, and ones that on second thought I don't think I've addressed well enough, so the pencil's up for now. Maybe later I'll give a little poke to signify I'm ready for another round of comments.


Title: Re: Ash'Mari men religion section
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 31 January 2013, 04:28:06
Great to hear, Alexandre! Always good to see that an entry that has been lingering on the Forum for a while gets looked at again and hopefully makes it to the site eventually. :grin: :thumbup: